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Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills"
wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills" wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) The ability to deal with whatever comes your way is handy, most things these days typically having been designed by Frankenstein or relative if you catch my drift. |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:42:21 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills" wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) The ability to deal with whatever comes your way is handy, most things these days typically having been designed by Frankenstein or relative if you catch my drift. g This has been one of my hobby horses for decades. I had to write an article about it in the late '70s, so I went first to Caterpillar. "What are you talking about?" they asked. "We're 100% metric." Within a few years, most of the automobile industry was, too. Now they're 100% metric, as well. So is all of US science, medicine, and most of our other volume manufacturers. I went to NIST. You'd think they'd be the biggest pro-metric folks on the continent. Their reaction? Officially, "Its a bad thing to be using inch measures." Unofficially, "Eh," accompanied by a shrug. The conclusion is this: Where it matters, we're already 100% metric. Where it doesn't, we're *still* mostly converted to metric. Most of our use of inch/pound etc. ("customary units") is in consumer products for lengths and volumes. It really doesn't matter a whit for them. They aren't converting erg-seconds to femtowatts. Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Jan 27, 8:24*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:
For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. -- Ed Huntress 1960 Military requires semiconductors to be good for 125 degrees C. Engineer writing acceptance test is sure that the lab has only Fahrenheit thermometers so changes 125 C to 257 degrees F. Acceptance lab has only Centigrade thermometers. Tech heats semiconductors to 257 C. All semiconductors no longer work. Dan |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:15:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Jan 27, 8:24*pm, Ed Huntress wrote: For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. -- Ed Huntress 1960 Military requires semiconductors to be good for 125 degrees C. Engineer writing acceptance test is sure that the lab has only Fahrenheit thermometers so changes 125 C to 257 degrees F. Acceptance lab has only Centigrade thermometers. Tech heats semiconductors to 257 C. All semiconductors no longer work. Dan Stupidity will always find a way. -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Jan 27, 9:34*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:15:08 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Jan 27, 8:24*pm, Ed Huntress wrote: For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. -- Ed Huntress 1960 Military requires semiconductors to be good for 125 degrees C. Engineer writing acceptance test is sure that the lab has only Fahrenheit thermometers so changes 125 C to 257 degrees F. *Acceptance lab has only Centigrade thermometers. *Tech heats semiconductors to 257 C. *All semiconductors no longer work. Dan Stupidity will always find a way. -- Ed Huntress Yeah but if the U.S. went to Centigrade there would be one less way. And I would not remember that the melting point of copper is about 1100 degrees but not remember if that is C or F. Or that a oxy acet flame is 6300 degrees either C or F. It is just one more way the U.S. is shooting itself in the foot as far as trade. Dan |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:44:50 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Jan 27, 9:34*pm, Ed Huntress wrote: On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:15:08 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Jan 27, 8:24*pm, Ed Huntress wrote: For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. -- Ed Huntress 1960 Military requires semiconductors to be good for 125 degrees C. Engineer writing acceptance test is sure that the lab has only Fahrenheit thermometers so changes 125 C to 257 degrees F. *Acceptance lab has only Centigrade thermometers. *Tech heats semiconductors to 257 C. *All semiconductors no longer work. Dan Stupidity will always find a way. -- Ed Huntress Yeah but if the U.S. went to Centigrade there would be one less way. And I would not remember that the melting point of copper is about 1100 degrees but not remember if that is C or F. Or that a oxy acet flame is 6300 degrees either C or F. It is just one more way the U.S. is shooting itself in the foot as far as trade. Dan Well, I feel for you Dan. FWIW, the melting point of copper that you remember is in C. And the O/A flame is in F. g There is no good reason to try to remember both. If those things are important to you, just get used to using and remembering one or the other. If you're relating them to highly technical information, I'd recommend C. Or K....damn that Kelvin... -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
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Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Jan 27, 10:15*pm, dpb wrote:
In all the ways US trade has a problem, this one is _not_ one any longer. *I've disagreed w/ Ed a bunch, but on this one he's spot on--where it matters the US has been metric for a long time already; where it isn't, it just doesn't matter at all. -- It does to me. I have inch and metric wrenches and sockets. I have inch and metric taps and dies. So it costs me time to find out which tool I need to use and money because I need two sets of tools. My lathe does inch threading with no problem, but needs manually changing gears to do metric threading. So more time gone. My dial calipers are inch. I do have digital calipers, but they are not as accurate as my inch micrometers. So it matters, Not that it can not be done, but it is a pain that is not necessary. Dan |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:18:17 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Jan 27, 10:15*pm, dpb wrote: In all the ways US trade has a problem, this one is _not_ one any longer. *I've disagreed w/ Ed a bunch, but on this one he's spot on--where it matters the US has been metric for a long time already; where it isn't, it just doesn't matter at all. -- It does to me. I have inch and metric wrenches and sockets. I have inch and metric taps and dies. So it costs me time to find out which tool I need to use and money because I need two sets of tools. My lathe does inch threading with no problem, but needs manually changing gears to do metric threading. So more time gone. My dial calipers are inch. I do have digital calipers, but they are not as accurate as my inch micrometers. So it matters, Not that it can not be done, but it is a pain that is not necessary. Dan Here's a suggestion, Dan: Throw your inch-measuring tools out. Why are you measuring in inch units to begin with? Oh, you have some old plans or old devices that are made in inch dimensions? Well, throw them out, too! Then you'll be all metric -- pure as driven snow. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Jan 28, 10:03*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
Here's a suggestion, Dan: Throw your inch-measuring tools out. Why are you measuring in inch units to begin with? Oh, you have some old plans or old devices that are made in inch dimensions? Well, throw them out, too! Then you'll be all metric -- pure as driven snow. d8-) -- Ed Huntress I suppose you want me to burn my house down too. Thank god electricity is all metric. Dan |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:51:11 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Jan 28, 10:03*am, Ed Huntress wrote: Here's a suggestion, Dan: Throw your inch-measuring tools out. Why are you measuring in inch units to begin with? Oh, you have some old plans or old devices that are made in inch dimensions? Well, throw them out, too! Then you'll be all metric -- pure as driven snow. d8-) -- Ed Huntress I suppose you want me to burn my house down too. Only if you're using micrometers for C-clamps. Thank god electricity is all metric. Yes, I noticed that all my wires are metric. I can tell because I can measure them with a metric micrometer. -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On 1/27/2012 8:24 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Ed wrote in message ... Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. When I worked as a QA Inspector in a sheet metal shop, one of our customers was a German owned company. Some of the drawings received from them had both metric and U.S. dimensions on the same drawing. |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:29:32 -0500, bobm46 wrote:
On 1/27/2012 8:24 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: "Ed wrote in message ... Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. When I worked as a QA Inspector in a sheet metal shop, one of our customers was a German owned company. Some of the drawings received from them had both metric and U.S. dimensions on the same drawing. I think that a lot of Europeans, and Japanese, with whom I've worked a lot more, think that we don't understand what metric is, and that we don't have the tools to measure it. g A Japanese engineer I used to work with used to struggle with a piece of paper and a calculator when he talked to me, converting metric dimensions into inch -- with fractions rather than decimal inches. Maybe he thought I was a house carpenter. g -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On 1/28/2012 1:35 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:29:32 -0500, wrote: On 1/27/2012 8:24 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: "Ed wrote in message ... Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. When I worked as a QA Inspector in a sheet metal shop, one of our customers was a German owned company. Some of the drawings received from them had both metric and U.S. dimensions on the same drawing. I think that a lot of Europeans, and Japanese, with whom I've worked a lot more, think that we don't understand what metric is, and that we don't have the tools to measure it.g A Japanese engineer I used to work with used to struggle with a piece of paper and a calculator when he talked to me, converting metric dimensions into inch -- with fractions rather than decimal inches. Maybe he thought I was a house carpenter.g After re-reading my post and your reply I think that I should be more specific. For instance,they would call out the length and width in metric, then spec the hole distances in U.S., the hole diameters in U.S with a metric thread. It was not to bad for me but the CNC programmers and the machinist always complained. |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:44:15 -0500, bobm46 wrote:
On 1/28/2012 1:35 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:29:32 -0500, wrote: On 1/27/2012 8:24 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: "Ed wrote in message ... Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. When I worked as a QA Inspector in a sheet metal shop, one of our customers was a German owned company. Some of the drawings received from them had both metric and U.S. dimensions on the same drawing. I think that a lot of Europeans, and Japanese, with whom I've worked a lot more, think that we don't understand what metric is, and that we don't have the tools to measure it.g A Japanese engineer I used to work with used to struggle with a piece of paper and a calculator when he talked to me, converting metric dimensions into inch -- with fractions rather than decimal inches. Maybe he thought I was a house carpenter.g After re-reading my post and your reply I think that I should be more specific. For instance,they would call out the length and width in metric, then spec the hole distances in U.S., the hole diameters in U.S with a metric thread. It was not to bad for me but the CNC programmers and the machinist always complained. Oh, jeez. That is a problem. Did you ever find out why they did that? -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On 1/28/2012 1:46 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:44:15 -0500, wrote: On 1/28/2012 1:35 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:29:32 -0500, wrote: On 1/27/2012 8:24 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: "Ed wrote in message ... Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. When I worked as a QA Inspector in a sheet metal shop, one of our customers was a German owned company. Some of the drawings received from them had both metric and U.S. dimensions on the same drawing. I think that a lot of Europeans, and Japanese, with whom I've worked a lot more, think that we don't understand what metric is, and that we don't have the tools to measure it.g A Japanese engineer I used to work with used to struggle with a piece of paper and a calculator when he talked to me, converting metric dimensions into inch -- with fractions rather than decimal inches. Maybe he thought I was a house carpenter.g After re-reading my post and your reply I think that I should be more specific. For instance,they would call out the length and width in metric, then spec the hole distances in U.S., the hole diameters in U.S with a metric thread. It was not to bad for me but the CNC programmers and the machinist always complained. Oh, jeez. That is a problem. Did you ever find out why they did that? Not for sure. But I always suspected that the original drawings came from Germany all metric and they were redrawn here at the local plant. Why this would happen I do not know. |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... Thank god electricity is all metric. Yes, I noticed that all my wires are metric. I can tell because I can measure them with a metric micrometer. Actually, that's a bit of a mess, too.... --SEE: http://www.global-electron.com/wiresizes.htm |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:21:41 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message .. . Thank god electricity is all metric. Yes, I noticed that all my wires are metric. I can tell because I can measure them with a metric micrometer. Actually, that's a bit of a mess, too.... --SEE: http://www.global-electron.com/wiresizes.htm Ah, it was a joke. If I can measure it with a metric micrometer...oh, never mind. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
In article , huntres23
@optonline.net says... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:42:21 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills" wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) The ability to deal with whatever comes your way is handy, most things these days typically having been designed by Frankenstein or relative if you catch my drift. g This has been one of my hobby horses for decades. I had to write an article about it in the late '70s, so I went first to Caterpillar. "What are you talking about?" they asked. "We're 100% metric." Within a few years, most of the automobile industry was, too. Now they're 100% metric, as well. So is all of US science, medicine, and most of our other volume manufacturers. I went to NIST. You'd think they'd be the biggest pro-metric folks on the continent. Their reaction? Officially, "Its a bad thing to be using inch measures." Unofficially, "Eh," accompanied by a shrug. The conclusion is this: Where it matters, we're already 100% metric. Where it doesn't, we're *still* mostly converted to metric. Most of our use of inch/pound etc. ("customary units") is in consumer products for lengths and volumes. It really doesn't matter a whit for them. They aren't converting erg-seconds to femtowatts. Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. We're "metric" for certain values of "metric". Calling a 7/16 bolt "11.11mm" on the drawing it "metric" but it doesn't really do anything for clarity. |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
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Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 17:38:32 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote: In article , huntres23 says... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:42:21 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills" wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) The ability to deal with whatever comes your way is handy, most things these days typically having been designed by Frankenstein or relative if you catch my drift. g This has been one of my hobby horses for decades. I had to write an article about it in the late '70s, so I went first to Caterpillar. "What are you talking about?" they asked. "We're 100% metric." Within a few years, most of the automobile industry was, too. Now they're 100% metric, as well. So is all of US science, medicine, and most of our other volume manufacturers. I went to NIST. You'd think they'd be the biggest pro-metric folks on the continent. Their reaction? Officially, "Its a bad thing to be using inch measures." Unofficially, "Eh," accompanied by a shrug. The conclusion is this: Where it matters, we're already 100% metric. Where it doesn't, we're *still* mostly converted to metric. Most of our use of inch/pound etc. ("customary units") is in consumer products for lengths and volumes. It really doesn't matter a whit for them. They aren't converting erg-seconds to femtowatts. Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. We're "metric" for certain values of "metric". Calling a 7/16 bolt "11.11mm" on the drawing it "metric" but it doesn't really do anything for clarity. Right. You may recall that the US automobile industry spent a couple of years diddling with what they called "soft metrics." They were inch values converted to metric, and they produced results like your example. Here's a fairly current drafting manual on the subject: "2.2 Soft Metric – Soft metric conversion drawings maintain the original inch design but are converted to express the units of measurement in the SI metric language, including dimensioning and tolerancing in millimeters (mm). Soft conversion drawings are used when expensive tooling and production equipment cannot be immediately replaced or when the transition period to metric is limited. Soft metric may also include using metric fasteners." http://www.draftingzone.com/contentl...pdf&fileType=P It's been decades since it happened in the car business, but my recollection is that they used inch fasteners, expressed in metric conversions, at the time. But in that industry, as well as many others, they've long since converted to "hard" metrics. -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
Yeah but if the U.S. went to Centigrade there would be one less way.
And I would not remember that the melting point of copper is about 1100 degrees but not remember if that is C or F. Or that a oxy acet flame is 6300 degrees either C or F. It is just one more way the U.S. is shooting itself in the foot as far as trade. How so? Nobody really gives a crap if the screws used to hold their iphone together are inch, metric, Whitworth, or Klingon as long as they hold the iphone together. And - since they thread into plastic, any of the above will work fine! |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
It happens that Richard formulated :
Yeah but if the U.S. went to Centigrade there would be one less way. And I would not remember that the melting point of copper is about 1100 degrees but not remember if that is C or F. Or that a oxy acet flame is 6300 degrees either C or F. It is just one more way the U.S. is shooting itself in the foot as far as trade. How so? Nobody really gives a crap if the screws used to hold their iphone together are inch, metric, Whitworth, or Klingon as long as they hold the iphone together. And - since they thread into plastic, any of the above will work fine! Or even Coarse lol -- John G |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
In article , huntres23
@optonline.net says... On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 17:38:32 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , huntres23 says... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:42:21 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills" wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) The ability to deal with whatever comes your way is handy, most things these days typically having been designed by Frankenstein or relative if you catch my drift. g This has been one of my hobby horses for decades. I had to write an article about it in the late '70s, so I went first to Caterpillar. "What are you talking about?" they asked. "We're 100% metric." Within a few years, most of the automobile industry was, too. Now they're 100% metric, as well. So is all of US science, medicine, and most of our other volume manufacturers. I went to NIST. You'd think they'd be the biggest pro-metric folks on the continent. Their reaction? Officially, "Its a bad thing to be using inch measures." Unofficially, "Eh," accompanied by a shrug. The conclusion is this: Where it matters, we're already 100% metric. Where it doesn't, we're *still* mostly converted to metric. Most of our use of inch/pound etc. ("customary units") is in consumer products for lengths and volumes. It really doesn't matter a whit for them. They aren't converting erg-seconds to femtowatts. Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. We're "metric" for certain values of "metric". Calling a 7/16 bolt "11.11mm" on the drawing it "metric" but it doesn't really do anything for clarity. Right. You may recall that the US automobile industry spent a couple of years diddling with what they called "soft metrics." They were inch values converted to metric, and they produced results like your example. Here's a fairly current drafting manual on the subject: "2.2 Soft Metric ? Soft metric conversion drawings maintain the original inch design but are converted to express the units of measurement in the SI metric language, including dimensioning and tolerancing in millimeters (mm). Soft conversion drawings are used when expensive tooling and production equipment cannot be immediately replaced or when the transition period to metric is limited. Soft metric may also include using metric fasteners." http://www.draftingzone.com/contentl...pdf&fileType=P It's been decades since it happened in the car business, but my recollection is that they used inch fasteners, expressed in metric conversions, at the time. But in that industry, as well as many others, they've long since converted to "hard" metrics. The brake lines on my '97 Jeep have metric fittings on one end and english on the other. Some fasteners are metric, others aren't. As of '97, all fasteners on Chrysler products clearly were not metric standard. |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 22:09:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote: In article , huntres23 says... On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 17:38:32 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , huntres23 says... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:42:21 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills" wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) The ability to deal with whatever comes your way is handy, most things these days typically having been designed by Frankenstein or relative if you catch my drift. g This has been one of my hobby horses for decades. I had to write an article about it in the late '70s, so I went first to Caterpillar. "What are you talking about?" they asked. "We're 100% metric." Within a few years, most of the automobile industry was, too. Now they're 100% metric, as well. So is all of US science, medicine, and most of our other volume manufacturers. I went to NIST. You'd think they'd be the biggest pro-metric folks on the continent. Their reaction? Officially, "Its a bad thing to be using inch measures." Unofficially, "Eh," accompanied by a shrug. The conclusion is this: Where it matters, we're already 100% metric. Where it doesn't, we're *still* mostly converted to metric. Most of our use of inch/pound etc. ("customary units") is in consumer products for lengths and volumes. It really doesn't matter a whit for them. They aren't converting erg-seconds to femtowatts. Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. We're "metric" for certain values of "metric". Calling a 7/16 bolt "11.11mm" on the drawing it "metric" but it doesn't really do anything for clarity. Right. You may recall that the US automobile industry spent a couple of years diddling with what they called "soft metrics." They were inch values converted to metric, and they produced results like your example. Here's a fairly current drafting manual on the subject: "2.2 Soft Metric ? Soft metric conversion drawings maintain the original inch design but are converted to express the units of measurement in the SI metric language, including dimensioning and tolerancing in millimeters (mm). Soft conversion drawings are used when expensive tooling and production equipment cannot be immediately replaced or when the transition period to metric is limited. Soft metric may also include using metric fasteners." http://www.draftingzone.com/contentl...pdf&fileType=P It's been decades since it happened in the car business, but my recollection is that they used inch fasteners, expressed in metric conversions, at the time. But in that industry, as well as many others, they've long since converted to "hard" metrics. The brake lines on my '97 Jeep have metric fittings on one end and english on the other. Some fasteners are metric, others aren't. As of '97, all fasteners on Chrysler products clearly were not metric standard. g There have been some messes out there. Chrysler supposedly was all-metric by the late '70s, and my '89 Caravan was, but I didn't try to turn every nut and bolt. Here are GM's metric standards for suppliers as of 1999. They include soft metrics: http://supplier.comauinc.com/gm/peas...h/fnldrft1.pdf There probably are a few bits of inch/Imperial stuff out there. It may be that a few suppliers are still covered by the soft-metric standards. -- Ed Huntress |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
In article , huntres23
@optonline.net says... On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 22:09:43 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , huntres23 says... On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 17:38:32 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , huntres23 says... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:42:21 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills" wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) The ability to deal with whatever comes your way is handy, most things these days typically having been designed by Frankenstein or relative if you catch my drift. g This has been one of my hobby horses for decades. I had to write an article about it in the late '70s, so I went first to Caterpillar. "What are you talking about?" they asked. "We're 100% metric." Within a few years, most of the automobile industry was, too. Now they're 100% metric, as well. So is all of US science, medicine, and most of our other volume manufacturers. I went to NIST. You'd think they'd be the biggest pro-metric folks on the continent. Their reaction? Officially, "Its a bad thing to be using inch measures." Unofficially, "Eh," accompanied by a shrug. The conclusion is this: Where it matters, we're already 100% metric. Where it doesn't, we're *still* mostly converted to metric. Most of our use of inch/pound etc. ("customary units") is in consumer products for lengths and volumes. It really doesn't matter a whit for them. They aren't converting erg-seconds to femtowatts. Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. We're "metric" for certain values of "metric". Calling a 7/16 bolt "11.11mm" on the drawing it "metric" but it doesn't really do anything for clarity. Right. You may recall that the US automobile industry spent a couple of years diddling with what they called "soft metrics." They were inch values converted to metric, and they produced results like your example. Here's a fairly current drafting manual on the subject: "2.2 Soft Metric ? Soft metric conversion drawings maintain the original inch design but are converted to express the units of measurement in the SI metric language, including dimensioning and tolerancing in millimeters (mm). Soft conversion drawings are used when expensive tooling and production equipment cannot be immediately replaced or when the transition period to metric is limited. Soft metric may also include using metric fasteners." http://www.draftingzone.com/contentl...pdf&fileType=P It's been decades since it happened in the car business, but my recollection is that they used inch fasteners, expressed in metric conversions, at the time. But in that industry, as well as many others, they've long since converted to "hard" metrics. The brake lines on my '97 Jeep have metric fittings on one end and english on the other. Some fasteners are metric, others aren't. As of '97, all fasteners on Chrysler products clearly were not metric standard. g There have been some messes out there. Chrysler supposedly was all-metric by the late '70s, and my '89 Caravan was, but I didn't try to turn every nut and bolt. Here are GM's metric standards for suppliers as of 1999. They include soft metrics: http://supplier.comauinc.com/gm/peas...h/fnldrft1.pdf There probably are a few bits of inch/Imperial stuff out there. It may be that a few suppliers are still covered by the soft-metric standards. One suspects that the real rule is that if they have to change any tooling or do any redesign to use "hard metric" they won't bother, they'll just redraw. Why redo the stress analysis on a small block Chevy to see if metric rod bolts are OK when you can just make a metric drawing of what you're already making? |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
J. Clarke Inscribed thus:
In article 8b854deb-5c55-4815-87ce- , says... On Jan 27, 10:15Â*pm, dpb wrote: In all the ways US trade has a problem, this one is _not_ one any longer. Â*I've disagreed w/ Ed a bunch, but on this one he's spot on--where it matters the US has been metric for a long time already; where it isn't, it just doesn't matter at all. -- It does to me. I have inch and metric wrenches and sockets. I have inch and metric taps and dies. So it costs me time to find out which tool I need to use and money because I need two sets of tools. My lathe does inch threading with no problem, but needs manually changing gears to do metric threading. So more time gone. My dial calipers are inch. I do have digital calipers, but they are not as accurate as my inch micrometers. So it matters, Not that it can not be done, but it is a pain that is not necessary. Well if that sort of thing is such a big issue for you, never buy a '72 Volvo. I had '72 Volvo that had SAE, Metric, and Whitworth on it (at least the only wrench that would fit one particular nut was Whitworth--I didn't check the thread). Seems that the Swedes were at that time even more "backward" than we ignorant colonials. Has anybody counted how many different threads are used on a Myford lathe ? -- Best Regards: Baron. |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 22:45:54 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 22:09:43 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , huntres23 says... On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 17:38:32 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , huntres23 says... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:42:21 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:29:46 +0000 (UTC), "Kelly D. Grills" wrote: * Just Me : If the US would get of it's arse and switch to metric like the rest of the world it wouldn't be such a big thing,it's going to have to eventually so why not just do it. Yeah, that's what they told us in high school shop class... in 1974. Physics class, too, in 1965. And science class, in 1960... The drumbeat goes on. d8-) The ability to deal with whatever comes your way is handy, most things these days typically having been designed by Frankenstein or relative if you catch my drift. g This has been one of my hobby horses for decades. I had to write an article about it in the late '70s, so I went first to Caterpillar. "What are you talking about?" they asked. "We're 100% metric." Within a few years, most of the automobile industry was, too. Now they're 100% metric, as well. So is all of US science, medicine, and most of our other volume manufacturers. I went to NIST. You'd think they'd be the biggest pro-metric folks on the continent. Their reaction? Officially, "Its a bad thing to be using inch measures." Unofficially, "Eh," accompanied by a shrug. The conclusion is this: Where it matters, we're already 100% metric. Where it doesn't, we're *still* mostly converted to metric. Most of our use of inch/pound etc. ("customary units") is in consumer products for lengths and volumes. It really doesn't matter a whit for them. They aren't converting erg-seconds to femtowatts. Job shops still get a mess of both measures, and they're the ones who have a right to be ****ed off about it. Otherwise, it's not really a problem. And keep in mind that our dimensions for length are in decimal units for most technical things, anyway. It matters little whether you start with a meter or with an inch if you do that, as long as you don't have to keep converting. And with computer controls, you just push a button even for that. For those reasons, it's mostly a tempest in a teapot. There are some good reasons to go all-metric, but there are few people who would even notice. We're "metric" for certain values of "metric". Calling a 7/16 bolt "11.11mm" on the drawing it "metric" but it doesn't really do anything for clarity. Right. You may recall that the US automobile industry spent a couple of years diddling with what they called "soft metrics." They were inch values converted to metric, and they produced results like your example. Here's a fairly current drafting manual on the subject: "2.2 Soft Metric ? Soft metric conversion drawings maintain the original inch design but are converted to express the units of measurement in the SI metric language, including dimensioning and tolerancing in millimeters (mm). Soft conversion drawings are used when expensive tooling and production equipment cannot be immediately replaced or when the transition period to metric is limited. Soft metric may also include using metric fasteners." http://www.draftingzone.com/contentl...pdf&fileType=P It's been decades since it happened in the car business, but my recollection is that they used inch fasteners, expressed in metric conversions, at the time. But in that industry, as well as many others, they've long since converted to "hard" metrics. The brake lines on my '97 Jeep have metric fittings on one end and english on the other. Some fasteners are metric, others aren't. As of '97, all fasteners on Chrysler products clearly were not metric standard. g There have been some messes out there. Chrysler supposedly was all-metric by the late '70s, and my '89 Caravan was, but I didn't try to turn every nut and bolt. Here are GM's metric standards for suppliers as of 1999. They include soft metrics: http://supplier.comauinc.com/gm/peas...h/fnldrft1.pdf There probably are a few bits of inch/Imperial stuff out there. It may be that a few suppliers are still covered by the soft-metric standards. My beef with GM concerns the spare tire attachment system on a 1990 Chebby Lumina APV. In Feb. 1997 on the way down I-75 I came out of the motel to a flat tire. Out with the jack etc. and prepared to lower the spare. I suspect my first action was in the wrong direction because as soon as I applied pressure, the spare fell to the ground - guess I was lucky it was still there. I collected the stray bits and from then till summer I carried the spare internally. In nice weather I attempted to remove the winch mechanism. I determined that the attachment bolts had hex. heads that fit perfectly in a 5/16 socket - OK, #10 machine screws seem somewhat inadequate, but, if I'm very careful and get very lucky and use lots of penetrating oil, I just might get things appart. Some time later, and with the help of a cheater and 16 ounce hammer, I discovered that I had odd looking 8M bolts. After dismantling, cleaning, stuffing with grease and re-assembling the winch, designing and machining a new cable end, I re-installed it using standard 8M bolts. The spare was still there when second son's step daughter demolished the vehicle ten years later. |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On 3/4/2012 9:45 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
The brake lines on my '97 Jeep have metric fittings on one end and english on the other. Some fasteners are metric, others aren't. As of '97, all fasteners on Chrysler products clearly were not metric standard. g There have been some messes out there. Chrysler supposedly was all-metric by the late '70s, and my '89 Caravan was, but I didn't try to turn every nut and bolt. Here are GM's metric standards for suppliers as of 1999. They include soft metrics: http://supplier.comauinc.com/gm/peas...h/fnldrft1.pdf There probably are a few bits of inch/Imperial stuff out there. It may be that a few suppliers are still covered by the soft-metric standards. Maybe those imperial fasteners were left over AMC parts! David |
Dual Dimensioned Drawings
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 20:59:59 -0600, "David R. Birch"
wrote: On 3/4/2012 9:45 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: The brake lines on my '97 Jeep have metric fittings on one end and english on the other. Some fasteners are metric, others aren't. As of '97, all fasteners on Chrysler products clearly were not metric standard. g There have been some messes out there. Chrysler supposedly was all-metric by the late '70s, and my '89 Caravan was, but I didn't try to turn every nut and bolt. Here are GM's metric standards for suppliers as of 1999. They include soft metrics: http://supplier.comauinc.com/gm/peas...h/fnldrft1.pdf There probably are a few bits of inch/Imperial stuff out there. It may be that a few suppliers are still covered by the soft-metric standards. Maybe those imperial fasteners were left over AMC parts! David Waste not, want not... -- Ed Huntress |
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