I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Karl

On Apr 16, 9:26*am, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Karl

You could try looping the cable through a ferrite core.
http://www.antennex.com/shack/Dec99/beads.htm

jsw

On 4/16/2011 9:26 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Karl


Start with the basics. Is the cable shielded with the shields
terminated? You should be running shielded twisted pair, and the cable
signal lines should be terminated at both ends. Are the circuit boards
in a grounded metal enclosure? If the system is shielded, the next step
will be to wrap a few turns of the cables around a ferrite attenuator
core, as Jim suggests. If it were in my heart and lung machine I would
add .1uF monolythic ceramic capacitors to the output of the DTS line at
the computer and the input of the voltage regulator on the board.
Separation of the data cable and the AM antenna will help. Running the
cable close to the ground or in metallic conduit will help. An external
AM antenna for the radio (away from the data line) will help.

Kevin Gallimore

On Apr 16, 11:26*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf



Karl

You didnt say if it worked....assume it did....

Short of a lot of stuffing around, the clamp on ferrite interference
cores are worth a try - then try
if the cables you have run have spare conductors, ground them all at
each end. Maybe double up on the power one on pin 8 - the thing gets
its power from the receiving computer, could be a bit iffy what with
voltage drop on your feed cable...

Oh, and BTW Karl - you are aware you are committing a Federal Offense
by running an unlicensed radio transmitter causing interference to
your wifes radio. Possibly a lot of other radios as well.. Tsk
tsk....G..

Andrew VK3BFA.

Andrew VK3BFA wrote:
On Apr 16, 11:26 pm, Karl
wrote:
I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf



Karl

You didnt say if it worked....assume it did....

Short of a lot of stuffing around, the clamp on ferrite interference
cores are worth a try - then try
if the cables you have run have spare conductors, ground them all at
each end. Maybe double up on the power one on pin 8 - the thing gets
its power from the receiving computer, could be a bit iffy what with
voltage drop on your feed cable...

Oh, and BTW Karl - you are aware you are committing a Federal Offense
by running an unlicensed radio transmitter causing interference to
your wifes radio. Possibly a lot of other radios as well.. Tsk
tsk....G..

Andrew VK3BFA.

Same for all those CFL users. /mark in BC

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 08:26:42 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Buy her a bloody FM radio! Better yet, a sat radio, with none of the
farkin' commercials playing all the time.

--
Threee days before Tucson, Howard Dean explained that the
tea party movement is "the last gasp of the generation that
has trouble with diversity." Rising to the challenge of
lowering his reputation and the tone of public discourse,
Dean smeared tea partiers as racists: They oppose Obama's
agenda, Obama is African-American, ergo...

Let us hope that Dean is the last gasp of the generation
of liberals whose default position in any argument is to
indict opponents as racists. This McCarthyism of the left
-- devoid of intellectual content, unsupported by data --
is a mental tic, not an idea but a tactic for avoiding
engagement with ideas. It expresses limitless contempt for
the American people, who have reciprocated by reducing
liberalism to its current characteristics of electoral
weakness and bad sociology. --George Will 14 JAN 2011
Article titled "Tragedies often spark plenty of analysis"

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Karl

Put the PC in the greenhouse as the local sensor node controller, and
connect it to the house on WiFi.

Mark F wrote:

Andrew VK3BFA wrote:
On Apr 16, 11:26 pm, Karl
wrote:
I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf



Karl

You didnt say if it worked....assume it did....

Short of a lot of stuffing around, the clamp on ferrite interference
cores are worth a try - then try
if the cables you have run have spare conductors, ground them all at
each end. Maybe double up on the power one on pin 8 - the thing gets
its power from the receiving computer, could be a bit iffy what with
voltage drop on your feed cable...

Oh, and BTW Karl - you are aware you are committing a Federal Offense
by running an unlicensed radio transmitter causing interference to
your wifes radio. Possibly a lot of other radios as well.. Tsk
tsk....G..

Andrew VK3BFA.

Same for all those CFL users. /mark in BC

Those are not "intentional radiators".

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 08:26:42 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Buy her a bloody FM radio! Better yet, a sat radio, with none of the
farkin' commercials playing all the time.

--
Threee days before Tucson, Howard Dean explained that the
tea party movement is "the last gasp of the generation that
has trouble with diversity." Rising to the challenge of
lowering his reputation and the tone of public discourse,
Dean smeared tea partiers as racists: They oppose Obama's
agenda, Obama is African-American, ergo...

Let us hope that Dean is the last gasp of the generation
of liberals whose default position in any argument is to
indict opponents as racists. This McCarthyism of the left
-- devoid of intellectual content, unsupported by data --
is a mental tic, not an idea but a tactic for avoiding
engagement with ideas. It expresses limitless contempt for
the American people, who have reciprocated by reducing
liberalism to its current characteristics of electoral
weakness and bad sociology. --George Will 14 JAN 2011
Article titled "Tragedies often spark plenty of analysis"

Professor Will appears to have jumped the gun. Here's the latest example:

" [R]espondents were asked whether they agreed with various
characterizations of different racial groups. Only 35 percent of those who
strongly approve of the tea party agreed that blacks are hardworking,
compared with 55 percent of those who strongly disapprove of the tea party.
On whether blacks were intelligent, 45 percent of the tea-party supporters
agreed, compared with 59 percent of the tea-party opponents. And on the
issue of whether blacks were trustworthy, 41 percent of the tea-party
supporters agreed, compared with 57 percent of the tea-party opponents.

"The survey, which included about 1,000 respondents in six battleground
states (like Michigan and Nevada) and California, found similar margins on
questions regarding Latinos."

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/mssrp_table.pdf

George tends to fall in love with his own rhetorical skills and to go off
half-cocked when he thinks he has a great insight. His "insight" this time
appears to be that the Tea Party is the second coming of his beloved Burkean
conservatives, with a strong libertarian bent. The evidence is that not
everyone in the Tea Party is a racist, but that racists seem to gravitate
toward the Tea Party -- something like Muslims and terrorists.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 08:26:42 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Buy her a bloody FM radio! Better yet, a sat radio, with none of the
farkin' commercials playing all the time.

--
Threee days before Tucson, Howard Dean explained that the
tea party movement is "the last gasp of the generation that
has trouble with diversity." Rising to the challenge of
lowering his reputation and the tone of public discourse,
Dean smeared tea partiers as racists: They oppose Obama's
agenda, Obama is African-American, ergo...

Let us hope that Dean is the last gasp of the generation
of liberals whose default position in any argument is to
indict opponents as racists. This McCarthyism of the left
-- devoid of intellectual content, unsupported by data --
is a mental tic, not an idea but a tactic for avoiding
engagement with ideas. It expresses limitless contempt for
the American people, who have reciprocated by reducing
liberalism to its current characteristics of electoral
weakness and bad sociology. --George Will 14 JAN 2011
Article titled "Tragedies often spark plenty of analysis"

Professor Will appears to have jumped the gun. Here's the latest example:

" [R]espondents were asked whether they agreed with various
characterizations of different racial groups. Only 35 percent of those who
strongly approve of the tea party agreed that blacks are hardworking,
compared with 55 percent of those who strongly disapprove of the tea
party. On whether blacks were intelligent, 45 percent of the tea-party
supporters agreed, compared with 59 percent of the tea-party opponents.
And on the issue of whether blacks were trustworthy, 41 percent of the
tea-party supporters agreed, compared with 57 percent of the tea-party
opponents.

"The survey, which included about 1,000 respondents in six battleground
states (like Michigan and Nevada) and California, found similar margins on
questions regarding Latinos."

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/mssrp_table.pdf

George tends to fall in love with his own rhetorical skills and to go off
half-cocked when he thinks he has a great insight. His "insight" this time
appears to be that the Tea Party is the second coming of his beloved
Burkean conservatives, with a strong libertarian bent. The evidence is
that not everyone in the Tea Party is a racist, but that racists seem to
gravitate toward the Tea Party -- something like Muslims and terrorists.


So those who support the tea party are significantly more likely to hold
racist views as compared to those who don't ?

--Wow I never would have guessed !

Karl Townsend wrote:

I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

20 mA current loop, with shielded twisted pair. Maybe RS-485 for that
distance, although I've run cat5 LAN cable 100 feet before.

The secret to minimizing interference to the radio is twisted pair
and shielding. I recommend you get enough conductors so that you can
also use DTR/DSR and RTS/CTS, if only for the sake of completeness.

And again, use twisted pairs and shield the cable. Ground the shield
ONLY at the host end, so that you don't get a mongo ground loop.

Good Luck!
Rich

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:GqWdne7LAIc0TjTQnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 08:26:42 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Buy her a bloody FM radio! Better yet, a sat radio, with none of the
farkin' commercials playing all the time.

--
Threee days before Tucson, Howard Dean explained that the
tea party movement is "the last gasp of the generation that
has trouble with diversity." Rising to the challenge of
lowering his reputation and the tone of public discourse,
Dean smeared tea partiers as racists: They oppose Obama's
agenda, Obama is African-American, ergo...

Let us hope that Dean is the last gasp of the generation
of liberals whose default position in any argument is to
indict opponents as racists. This McCarthyism of the left
-- devoid of intellectual content, unsupported by data --
is a mental tic, not an idea but a tactic for avoiding
engagement with ideas. It expresses limitless contempt for
the American people, who have reciprocated by reducing
liberalism to its current characteristics of electoral
weakness and bad sociology. --George Will 14 JAN 2011
Article titled "Tragedies often spark plenty of analysis"

Professor Will appears to have jumped the gun. Here's the latest example:

" [R]espondents were asked whether they agreed with various
characterizations of different racial groups. Only 35 percent of those
who strongly approve of the tea party agreed that blacks are hardworking,
compared with 55 percent of those who strongly disapprove of the tea
party. On whether blacks were intelligent, 45 percent of the tea-party
supporters agreed, compared with 59 percent of the tea-party opponents.
And on the issue of whether blacks were trustworthy, 41 percent of the
tea-party supporters agreed, compared with 57 percent of the tea-party
opponents.

"The survey, which included about 1,000 respondents in six battleground
states (like Michigan and Nevada) and California, found similar margins
on questions regarding Latinos."

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/mssrp_table.pdf

George tends to fall in love with his own rhetorical skills and to go off
half-cocked when he thinks he has a great insight. His "insight" this
time appears to be that the Tea Party is the second coming of his beloved
Burkean conservatives, with a strong libertarian bent. The evidence is
that not everyone in the Tea Party is a racist, but that racists seem to
gravitate toward the Tea Party -- something like Muslims and terrorists.


So those who support the tea party are significantly more likely to hold
racist views as compared to those who don't ?

--Wow I never would have guessed !

g Yeah, it falls into the category of whether blondes or brunettes are
more likely to show dark roots. You don't really need a fancy study to know
the general shape of the answer. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Larry Jaques wrote:

Dean smeared tea partiers as racists: They oppose Obama's
agenda, Obama is African-American, ergo...

Shouldn't the President of the United States be an _AMERICAN_
American?

I try not to be racist, but I hate anyone who puts another
country, or a whole bloody continent, before America!

Thanks,
Rich

On Apr 16, 1:53*pm, Rich Grise wrote:

I try not to be racist

Try harder.

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
...
I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Karl

Hi Karl,
I've been running a 1 wire system using DS18S20s driven by a DS9097U
for over three years and haven't had any AM radio interference. I am
a AM radio listener with about six radios that are spread around the house.
I have two bedside radios I use at night for weak signals, so if I had
interference
I would have tracked it down in short order.
I have 13 freezers that I monitor on a real time basis, although the
program I use
will save and graph data.
You might look up the DS9097U as a driver unit. But I think now they have
went to
USB connections so the numbers may change.
The program I use is Lampomitari, it does exactly what I wanted but
probably not
the best or easiest program to use.
I'll check in when I have more time to see if I can get you more info.
Miikek

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:

Dean smeared tea partiers as racists: They oppose Obama's
agenda, Obama is African-American, ergo...

Shouldn't the President of the United States be an _AMERICAN_
American?


No such thing, unless you are a racist.

I try not to be racist, but I hate anyone who

Obama is a natural born American citizen.

puts another country, or a whole bloody continent, before America!

Your favorite cake...

http://www.wedding-todays.com/wp-con...it-cake-01.jpg


--

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:

Dean smeared tea partiers as racists: They oppose Obama's
agenda, Obama is African-American, ergo...

Shouldn't the President of the United States be an _AMERICAN_
American?


No such thing, unless you are a racist.

I try not to be racist, but I hate anyone who

Obama is a natural born American citizen.

The only American citizens who are not "natural born" are those who
immigrated (legally) and then did the whole citizenship thing. Being
born in another country is still "natural born" if one or both of your
parents are American citizens. The "birthers" whining about this are
simply morons, whether they are racist or not.

I still do not support Obummer, and I am certainly no racist. Though as
a centrist I do agree with his positions on some issues, I disagree with
his positions on enough issues to not be able to support him.

On Apr 16, 12:54*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


Professor Will appears to have jumped the gun. Here's the latest example:

" [R]espondents were asked whether they agreed with various
characterizations of different racial groups. Only 35 percent of those who
strongly approve of the tea party agreed that blacks are hardworking,
compared with 55 percent of those who strongly disapprove of the tea party.
On whether blacks were intelligent, 45 percent of the tea-party supporters
agreed, compared with 59 percent of the tea-party opponents. And on the
issue of whether blacks were trustworthy, 41 percent of the tea-party
supporters agreed, compared with 57 percent of the tea-party opponents.

"The survey, which included about 1,000 respondents in six battleground
states (like Michigan and Nevada) and California, found similar margins on
questions regarding Latinos."

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/mssrp_table.pdf

George tends to fall in love with his own rhetorical skills and to go off
half-cocked when he thinks he has a great insight. His "insight" this time
appears to be that the Tea Party is the second coming of his beloved Burkean
conservatives, with a strong libertarian bent. The evidence is that not
everyone in the Tea Party is a racist, but that racists seem to gravitate
toward the Tea Party -- something like Muslims and terrorists.

--
Ed Huntress

It would be interesting if the same questions were asked about white
folks. It could be that members of the Tea Party have a lower opinion
about everyone. In fact I would expect members of a group that thinks
the government is not hard working, trustworthy, or intelligent, would
also think everyone is the same way.

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 12:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


Professor Will appears to have jumped the gun. Here's the latest example:

" [R]espondents were asked whether they agreed with various
characterizations of different racial groups. Only 35 percent of those who
strongly approve of the tea party agreed that blacks are hardworking,
compared with 55 percent of those who strongly disapprove of the tea
party.
On whether blacks were intelligent, 45 percent of the tea-party supporters
agreed, compared with 59 percent of the tea-party opponents. And on the
issue of whether blacks were trustworthy, 41 percent of the tea-party
supporters agreed, compared with 57 percent of the tea-party opponents.

"The survey, which included about 1,000 respondents in six battleground
states (like Michigan and Nevada) and California, found similar margins on
questions regarding Latinos."

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/mssrp_table.pdf

George tends to fall in love with his own rhetorical skills and to go off
half-cocked when he thinks he has a great insight. His "insight" this time
appears to be that the Tea Party is the second coming of his beloved
Burkean
conservatives, with a strong libertarian bent. The evidence is that not
everyone in the Tea Party is a racist, but that racists seem to gravitate
toward the Tea Party -- something like Muslims and terrorists.

--
Ed Huntress

It would be interesting if the same questions were asked about white
folks. It could be that members of the Tea Party have a lower opinion
about everyone. In fact I would expect members of a group that thinks
the government is not hard working, trustworthy, or intelligent, would
also think everyone is the same way.

Dan

That's an interesting thought. I'd like to see such a study, too.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 16, 12:54*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


Professor Will appears to have jumped the gun. Here's the latest example:

" [R]espondents were asked whether they agreed with various
characterizations of different racial groups. Only 35 percent of those who
strongly approve of the tea party agreed that blacks are hardworking,
compared with 55 percent of those who strongly disapprove of the tea party.
On whether blacks were intelligent, 45 percent of the tea-party supporters
agreed, compared with 59 percent of the tea-party opponents. And on the
issue of whether blacks were trustworthy, 41 percent of the tea-party
supporters agreed, compared with 57 percent of the tea-party opponents.

"The survey, which included about 1,000 respondents in six battleground
states (like Michigan and Nevada) and California, found similar margins on
questions regarding Latinos."

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/mssrp_table.pdf

George tends to fall in love with his own rhetorical skills and to go off
half-cocked when he thinks he has a great insight. His "insight" this time
appears to be that the Tea Party is the second coming of his beloved Burkean
conservatives, with a strong libertarian bent. The evidence is that not
everyone in the Tea Party is a racist, but that racists seem to gravitate
toward the Tea Party -- something like Muslims and terrorists.

--
Ed Huntress

It would be interesting if the same questions were asked about white
folks. It could be that members of the Tea Party have a lower opinion
about everyone. In fact I would expect members of a group that thinks
the government is not hard working, trustworthy, or intelligent, would
also think everyone is the same way.

Dan
Racists like the Rev. Wright, and Al Sharpton and so forth?

Those kinds of racists?

Gunner, who is NOT white.


--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:29:21 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Obama is a natural born American citizen.

The only American citizens who are not "natural born" are those who
immigrated (legally) and then did the whole citizenship thing. Being
born in another country is still "natural born" if one or both of your
parents are American citizens. The "birthers" whining about this are
simply morons, whether they are racist or not.

Im surprised you are ignorant of the subject.. A pity indeed.

Why Obama cannot be a natural born Citizen

A LEGAL ANALYSIS OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP

by Jim Delaney

John A. Bingham, author of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution,
which was intended to confer U.S. citizenship to the children of slaves
born in the U.S.

(Apr. 5, 2010) — Obama, born in 1961 of a U.S. Citizen mother and a
British Citizen (born in Kenya) father, was born a “U.S. Citizen” by
virtue of his mother’s U.S. Citizenship; however, since Obama’s father
was not a U.S. Citizen and thus not “attached to the U.S.,” Obama, even
if born of a U.S. Citizen mother within the jurisdiction of the United
States, is not, by definition and Constitutional intent, a “natural born
Citizen” as is specifically required by Article II, Section 1 (the
Presidential Clause) of the U.S. Constitution, and is, therefore,
ineligible to serve as President.

British citizenship was conferred to Obama at birth by act of British
law. Thus, he is born of dual citizenship.

Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution stipulates that “No Person
except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States at the
time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the
Office of the President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that
Office who shall not have attained the Age of thirty five Years, and
been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

Within the context of the Framers’ actual meaning (letter of the law)
and express purpose (spirit of the law), being a “natural born Citizen”
requires that citizenship must be passed on by the constitutionally
pertinent principle of natural law (see Law of Nations by E. Vattel,
1758, which consistently and profoundly influenced the Framers’ intent
when fashioning the Constitution), which assumes that citizenship is
inherited from one’s father’s citizenship.

The intent of the Framers with respect to the meaning of “natural born
Citizen” (vs. “born in the U.S.” or U.S. Citizen”) within the context of
the Presidential Clause specifically takes into account the father’s
allegiance and citizenship at the time of a child’s birth. Thus, the
father’s citizenship and, thus, his “attachment to the U.S.” at the time
of the child’s birth, carried more weight than merely the geographic
location of the child’s birth. Why? Still reeling from British rule, the
Framers, as represented by the words of John Jay in a July 1787 letter
to George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention,
wanted to avoid dual citizenship or dual loyalties of any future
Commander-in-Chief by declaring expressly “that the
Commander-in-Chief…shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a
natural born citizen,” thus to insure future leadership’s freedom from
foreign influences.

This correspondence directly influenced how Article II, Section 1 was
subsequently written, which holds that “no person except a natural born
Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States at the time of the Adoption
of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.”
(Notice the distinction.)

The first Nationality Act in 1790 declared that “the children of
citizens [plural] of the United States, that may be born beyond the sea,
or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as
natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not
descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United
States.” (Notice what appeared to be the central importance of the
father’s status — even if both parents were U.S. Citizens at the time of
the child’s birth.)

However, the Naturalization Act of 1795 stated that children born to
citizens beyond the seas are citizens of the United States but are not
legally considered “natural born citizens” of the United States, a more
exclusionary definition which adds the geographic requirement as well.

Per the 14th Amendment, wherein the distinction between “natural born”
and “U.S. Citizen” is never defined, a person born within the
jurisdiction of the United States to non-citizens who “are employed in
any diplomatic or official capacity” is automatically (by law) a U.S.
Citizen. The prevailing view regarding citizenship was again drawn from
E. Vattel’s Law of Nations, which stated that “natives, or natural-born
citizens, are those born in the country of parents who are citizens,”
and that “as society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than
by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the
condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.”

Further, the primary author of the citizenship clause in the 14th
Amendment, Sen. Jacob Howard, declared that the clause of the Amendment
was, again, by virtue of “natural law” and not by “act of law.” This
would mean that a child born to a U.S. Citizen father was “natural born.

In 1871, Rep. John Bingham, a Framer of the 14th Amendment, stated that
a child is a U.S. Citizen if born of naturalized parents inasmuch as a
naturalized father, as part of the naturalization oath, “absolutely
renounces and abjure all allegiance and fidelity” to other
sovereignties, thus establishing his firm “attachment to the United
States” as well. Therefore, born of U.S. Citizen parents within the
jurisdiction are the overriding factors in determining “natural born
citizenship.”

U.S. Title 8, Sec 1401 provides that U.S. Citizenship alone is not
sufficient to qualify one for President or Vice President, the clear
inference being that he or she must be natural born.

Additionally, the 12th Amendment states that “No person constitutionally
ineligible to the Office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice
President of the United States.”

In 1800, Charles Pinkney, a Framer of the Constitution and, later,
governor of South Carolina, said that the Presidential Clause was
designed to firmly “insure attachment to the country.” (No dual
loyalties on the part of either parent.)

Article IV, Section 2 provided that no act of Congress was required to
make citizens of the individual states citizens of the U.S.; only State
Legislatures had authority to grant State citizenship which, in turn,
conferred upon them U.S. Citizenship.

Further, in Savage vs. Umphries (TX) 118 S.W. 893, 909, the court ruled
that “as a man is a citizen of the country to which his father owes
allegiance, it is incumbent on one alleging in an election contest that
a voter is not a citizen of the U.S. to show that such voter’s father
was not a citizen thereof during his son’s minority.”

In 1820, Rep. A. Smith (VA), stated that “when we apply the term
citizens to the inhabitants of States, it means those who are members of
the political community. The civil law determined the condition of the
son by that of the father. A man whose father was not a citizen was
allowed to be a perpetual inhabitant, but not a citizen, unless
citizenship was conferred on him.”

In 1866, per the 14th Amendment, the terms “subject to the jurisdiction
of the U.S.” was defined as meaning “not owing allegiance to any other
sovereignty.” In the same year, Sec. 1992 of the U.S. Revised Statutes
declared that “all persons born in the U.S. and not subject to any
foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are declared to be citizens
of the U.S.”

John Bingham, commenting on Sec. 1992, stated that “every human being
born within the jurisdiction of the U.S. of parents [plural] not owing
allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of the
Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Very definitive for
purposes both of the 14th Amendment and the Presidential Clause.)

See Perkins vs. ELG, US 325 (1939) ruling which provides the two
criteria expressed by Rep. John Bingham must exist before one can be
called a “natural born citizen.”

on June 22, 1874, Congress issued a joint resolution that stated the
“United States has not recognized a double allegiance.”

Of contemporaneous interest is that according to the U.S. State
Department’s Foreign Affairs Manual (7 FAM 1131.6-2 Eligibility for
Presidency), “the fact that someone is a natural born citizen pursuant
to a statute (“natural born citizen” and “by statute” is incongruous)
does not necessarily imply that he or she is such a citizen for
Constitutional purposes.” The incongruity created by the statement’s use
of “natural born citizen” and “by statute” notwithstanding, it appears
that a naturalized citizen (by law/statute) is not eligible to assume
the office of the President, but it seems to be generally agreed that
children born within the jurisdiction of the U.S. of naturalized parents
are considered to be “natural born citizens” since that child’s parents
are, as part of the naturalization process, required “to renounce and
abjure any allegiance or fidelity to any foreign sovereignty” and, thus,
are, at the time of the child’s birth, “attached to the U.S.” Similarly,
and more obviously, a child born within U.S. jurisdiction of two U.S.
citizen parents is also considered a “natural born citizen.”

So it appears that there is no better way to insure “attachment to the
U.S.” than to require the President to have inherited his American
citizenship from his U.S. Citizen father. The Framers’ rationale for
this would be that any child born in the U.S. of an alien father, or a
father of dual allegiance, can be removed by their father to be raised
in another country only to be returned later in life bringing with
him/her foreign influences. Thus, for purposes of complying with the
Presidential Clause, a person born of dual citizenship/allegiance cannot
be said to be a natural born citizen. Again, and within the context of
the Presidential Clause, the child inherits natural born citizenship
from the father alone because, through the laws of nature, the child
inherits the condition of the father.

Within the meaning of the Presidential Clause, one can accurately say
that there are essentially two types of citizenship: 1) “natural born
citizenship,” meaning one who, by operation of nature (descent), was
born of an American citizen father, or, as further expanded upon in
successive legislation and opinion, was born of two U.S. Citizen
parents, and 2) a “U.S. Citizen” meaning one who, through operation of
law (statutory) was granted citizenship through naturalization, either
automatically at time of birth or voluntarily some time after birth (see
John Bingham opinion above).

The Wrotnowski vs. Bysiewica stay request which was denied by SCOTUS on
December 15, 2008 asserts that President Chester A. Arthur’s father was
a British citizen at the time of Chester’s birth–and the facts appear to
clearly substantiate that assertion–and that, therefore, Chester A.
Arthur was ineligible under Article II, Section 1 to assume the office
of President. And since the facts of the Arthur case were very similar
to that of Obama’s, it was the plantiff’s hope to force the Court to
review Obama’s eligibility to be President as well.

So, even if Obama verifies his birth within the jurisdiction of the
U.S., he is a U.S. Citizen by virtue of his mother’s American
citizenship, but he is not a natural born citizen because he was born of
an alien father and is, therefore, not, by definition and intent of the
Presidential Clause, a natural born citizen.

And if President Chester A. Arthur was ineligible to be President
because his father was a British citizen at the time of Chester’s birth,
should the Supreme Court rule Chester Arthur’s breach of law a
defensible precedent for granting Presidential eligibility to Obama
since his father too was a British citizen at the time of Obama’s birth
in 1961? On this question, the Framers’ method for repairing the breach
is per constitutional amendment. Clearly, the Framers did not want a
President at birth to be born of dual citizenship. As someone once
said, “Making errors in the past does not mean that we need to repeat
them in the future.”

From this summary of law, I think it can be most reasonably concluded
that since a child derives his attachment to the U.S. from his U.S.
Citizen parents, a child born of U.S. Citizen parents within the
jurisdiction of the U.S., inclusive of those U.S. parents who were
naturalized U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth, is very
clearly a “natural born citizen.”

Finally, Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to Judge Wm. Johnson in
1823: “On every question of construction of the Constitution, let us
carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted,
recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying
what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it,
conform to the probable intent in which it was passed.”

And this from President George Washington in his Farewell Address in
1796: “If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or
modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular way
wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the
Constitution designates. But let there be no change by ursurpation; for
through this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the
customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed.”
--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:29:21 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Obama is a natural born American citizen.

The only American citizens who are not "natural born" are those who
immigrated (legally) and then did the whole citizenship thing. Being
born in another country is still "natural born" if one or both of your
parents are American citizens. The "birthers" whining about this are
simply morons, whether they are racist or not.

It's not just Obama's original birth certificate at issue. WND has
reported that among the documentation not yet available for Obama
includes his kindergarten records, his Punahou school records, his
Occidental College records, his Columbia University records, his
Columbia thesis, his Harvard Law School records, his Harvard Law Review
articles, his scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his
passport, his medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois
state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism
records, and his adoption records.

Read mo Unveiled! Hawaii's 1961 long-form birth certificates
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=105347#ixzz1Jj5mAfrF

--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 08:26:42 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Karl

Thanks for all the tips, everybody. I'll first move up to twisted pair
shielded cable and ground the shield at the computer end. I'll test it
just laying out the window. If it still gives trouble, I'll change
from the office computer to the sales room computer for monitoring.
Its 40 yards from the house.

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:29:21 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Obama is a natural born American citizen.

The only American citizens who are not "natural born" are those who
immigrated (legally) and then did the whole citizenship thing. Being
born in another country is still "natural born" if one or both of your
parents are American citizens. The "birthers" whining about this are
simply morons, whether they are racist or not.

http://truebluenz.wordpress.com/2011...t-to-collapse/

Update Obama Birth Certificate- Web of lies about to collapse?
Posted on January 19, 2011 by Redbaiter

In all the discussions that have covered Obama’s Presidential
elegibility, there have been a number of statements by Obama’s
supporters that have been difficult to argue against. They are 1) That
Obama’s Certificate has been posted on line, and that is the real
certificate, and 2) That there is information on file in Hawaii that
proves Obama’s birth. In fact Hawaiian Health Dept officials have stated
that they have seen Obama’s Birth certificate on file.

The claim in item 1 above has been pretty much proven as false. The
online document is an unsigned unstamped digital image of no legal
worth. Item 2 above now takes a serious hit.

Hawaii’s new governor, Neil Abercrombie, recently announced he was keen
to clear the issue up as widespread doubts on the President eligibility
were damaging Obama’s re-election prospects. He said he would try and
find the documentation necessary to prove Obama was born in Hawaii. ( a
strange enough thing to say itself, about something apparently beyond
doubt) This promise was made around Christmas day last year.

Abercrombie was interviewed yesterday by his local newspaper, The Star
Advertiser. He was asked about that promise.

Q: You stirred up quite a controversy with your comments regarding
birthers and your plans to release more information regarding President
Barack Obama’s birth certificate. How is that coming?

A: I got a letter from someone the other day who was genuinely concerned
about it; it is not all just political agenda. They were talking on
Olelo last night about this; it has a political implication for 2012
that we simply cannot have.

(Abercrombie said there is a recording of the birth in the State
Archives and he wants to use that.)

It was actually written I am told, this is what our investigation is
showing, it actually exists in the archives, written down …

…What I can do, and all I have ever said, is that I am going to see to
it as governor that I can verify to anyone who is honest about it that
this is the case. If there is a political agenda then there is nothing I
can do about that, nor can the president.

This mumbling and incoherent reply is code for “there is no Birth
Certificate on file”. Time to haul the arrogant dissembling Health
officials who said there was up on charges I reckon. Charges like
conspiracy to defraud the American people. This whole web of deceit that
the mainstream media have been complicit in weaving is going to collapse
because bloggers have stuck to the task of searching for the truth. The
US is governed by a criminal gang and that gang has tentacles that
stretch way into the mainstream media. Bloggers will continue to
investigate, and we will bring this whole corrupt cronyist crooked
edifice down around the ears of that arrogant Kenyan born impostor and
his thug acolytes. In government and in the media.

Link to interview.
http://www.staradvertiser.com/editor..._endeavor.html

Update:

October 31st 2008- [DOH Director] Fukino said she and the registrar of
vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health
department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with
the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee
and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and
verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s
original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies
and procedures,” Fukino said.

Fukino said that no state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, ever
instructed that Obama’s certificate be handled differently from any
other.

Link to PDF of actual press release.
http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

July 27th 2009- In an attempt to quash persistent rumors that President
Obama was not born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961, Hawaii’s health director
reiterated Monday afternoon that she has personally seen Obama’s birth
certificate in the Health Department’s archives:

“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of
Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the
Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was
born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing
further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in
October 2008 over eight months ago

Link to PDF of actual press release.
http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf

11th November 2009- Journalist Lou Dobbs fired from CNN soon after
demanding on air that any material held in Hawaii pertaining to Obama’s
birth be released to the public.
O


#
Oswald Bastable says:
January 19, 2011 at 17:21

Any officials who have lied, covered up or been deliberately evasive
SHOULD be facing treason charges- alongside the pretender.

#
Scumsucker says:
January 19, 2011 at 19:01

…and then hanged.

#
Oswald Bastable says:
January 19, 2011 at 19:25

Goes without saying! ;-)


So if its clearly been proven true that no one can find the Obamassiahs
birth certificate....didnt the people that claimed they saw it...lie?

Democrats one assumes.

But then..thats normal for them.

Gunner

--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

On Apr 16, 6:18*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
...
My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.
..
Karl

Thanks for all the tips, everybody. I'll first move up to twisted pair
shielded cable and ground the shield at the computer end. I'll test it
just laying out the window. If it still gives trouble, I'll change
from the office computer to the sales room computer for monitoring.
Its 40 yards from the house.-

Twisted pair without the shield might work, since AM ferrite rod
antennas receive the magnetic component of the RF wave. You could
twist up some wire with a drill to test it before buying expensive
cable.

jsw

On Apr 16, 6:24*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

A whole lot of cut & paste drivel which included:

11th November 2009- Journalist Lou Dobbs fired from CNN
soon after demanding on air that any material held in
Hawaii pertaining to Obama s birth be released to the public.

Perhaps Lou Dobbs was fired because CNN finally realized that the word
"Journalist" really doesn't fit in a conversation about Lou Dobbs.
Perhaps he was a journalist once upon a time, but not anymore.

How fitting it is that this should come up under the subject line
"Radio Interference."

On Apr 16, 6:18*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 08:26:42 -0500, Karl Townsend





wrote:
I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Karl

Thanks for all the tips, everybody. I'll first move up to twisted pair
shielded cable and ground the shield at the computer end. I'll test it
just laying out the window. If it still gives trouble, I'll change
from the office computer to the sales room computer for monitoring.
Its 40 yards from the house

I'm coming in kinda late here, but how rapidly do you expect your
greenhouse temperature to change? a "constant beep beep beep" suggests
that you're taking temperature readings, well, constantly. I'd think
that sampling every few minutes would be more than often enough, and
your wife wouldn't notice the single "beeps" if they were sufficiently
spaced.

No hardware changes required. All you have to do is awitch DTR high
when you want data and low when you don't.

Hope this helps.

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:02:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:29:21 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Obama is a natural born American citizen.

The only American citizens who are not "natural born" are those who
immigrated (legally) and then did the whole citizenship thing. Being
born in another country is still "natural born" if one or both of your
parents are American citizens. The "birthers" whining about this are
simply morons, whether they are racist or not.

Im surprised you are ignorant of the subject.. A pity indeed.

Why Obama cannot be a natural born Citizen

Snip
============

In many ways, promoting obsession with Barack's/Berry's
citizenship is a highly successful tactic to divert
attention as your/our pockets are being picked.

While this is hugely entertaining/titillating to large
numbers of people, it is also a huge diversion from the
actual problems.

Consider the following:

(1) Even if Barry/Barack is proven to be a space alien
with three eyes, and is removed from the presidency, Joe
Biden and not John McCain will become president.

(2) Even if John "bomb bomb bomb Iran" McCain was to be
named as president, the problems of gross governmental
deficits at all levels, grotesque governmental debt at all
levels, a financial/fiscal system rotten from top to bottom,
two endless/pointless wars, three if we count Libya,
consequential affordable healthcare and pension reform, tax
reform, and dependence on imported oil and other strategic
commodities such as rare earths, will not be addressed in
any meaningful way, shape, form or fashion, although the
deckchairs on the Titanic may indeed be rearranged in new
and interesting patterns as the band plays on.

(3) Stealing from the dependent, such as the very young,
the very old and the handicapped cannot solve these
problems, nor will turning millions of people out on the
streets to starve, many through bogus foreclosure suits.

IMNSHO a far more useful effort would be to mandate annual
audits of the FRB by the GAO, and the establishment by
Congress of ranges of interest and other items set by the
FRB, for example the minimum interest commercial banks must
pay on checking/savings accounts, say the rate of inflation
+ 3%, to prevent the prudent savers by being raped by the
FRB efforts to inflate the money supply. Another useful
change would be to amend the IRS code to require the use of
CPI adjusted values when taxing capital gains or interest
income, even if the CPI has been compromised/recalibrated to
about 1/2 the real rate of inflation.


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 6:24 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

A whole lot of cut & paste drivel which included:

11th November 2009- Journalist Lou Dobbs fired from CNN
soon after demanding on air that any material held in
Hawaii pertaining to Obama s birth be released to the public.

Perhaps Lou Dobbs was fired because CNN finally realized that the word
"Journalist" really doesn't fit in a conversation about Lou Dobbs.
Perhaps he was a journalist once upon a time, but not anymore.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_831033.html

"Lou Dobbs will start his new Fox Business show on March 14, the network
announced Thursday."

"The show will be titled "Lou Dobbs Tonight," and will air at 7 PM Eastern.
That just happens to be the same title and time-slot that Dobbs' CNN show
had."

"Dobbs left CNN in 2009 after mounting tension between him and the network
over his increasingly outspoken political views. He announced that he was
joining Fox Business in November of last year."

"F. George McDuffee" wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:02:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:29:21 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Obama is a natural born American citizen.

The only American citizens who are not "natural born" are those who
immigrated (legally) and then did the whole citizenship thing. Being
born in another country is still "natural born" if one or both of your
parents are American citizens. The "birthers" whining about this are
simply morons, whether they are racist or not.

Im surprised you are ignorant of the subject.. A pity indeed.

Why Obama cannot be a natural born Citizen

Snip
============

In many ways, promoting obsession with Barack's/Berry's
citizenship is a highly successful tactic to divert
attention as your/our pockets are being picked.

While this is hugely entertaining/titillating to large
numbers of people, it is also a huge diversion from the
actual problems.

Consider the following:

(1) Even if Barry/Barack is proven to be a space alien
with three eyes, and is removed from the presidency, Joe
Biden and not John McCain will become president.

(2) Even if John "bomb bomb bomb Iran" McCain was to be
named as president, the problems of gross governmental
deficits at all levels, grotesque governmental debt at all
levels, a financial/fiscal system rotten from top to bottom,
two endless/pointless wars, three if we count Libya,
consequential affordable healthcare and pension reform, tax
reform, and dependence on imported oil and other strategic
commodities such as rare earths, will not be addressed in
any meaningful way, shape, form or fashion, although the
deckchairs on the Titanic may indeed be rearranged in new
and interesting patterns as the band plays on.

(3) Stealing from the dependent, such as the very young,
the very old and the handicapped cannot solve these
problems, nor will turning millions of people out on the
streets to starve, many through bogus foreclosure suits.

IMNSHO a far more useful effort would be to mandate annual
audits of the FRB by the GAO, and the establishment by
Congress of ranges of interest and other items set by the
FRB, for example the minimum interest commercial banks must
pay on checking/savings accounts, say the rate of inflation
+ 3%, to prevent the prudent savers by being raped by the
FRB efforts to inflate the money supply. Another useful
change would be to amend the IRS code to require the use of
CPI adjusted values when taxing capital gains or interest
income, even if the CPI has been compromised/recalibrated to
about 1/2 the real rate of inflation.


Have you seen this:


Budget Panel Eyes End to VA Care for 1.3 Million Vets

The House Budget Committee, chaired by Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), has told
a veterans' group it is studying a plan to save $6 billion annually in
VA health care costs by canceling enrollment of any veteran who doesn't
have a service-related medical condition and is not poor.

Committee Republicans, searching for ways to curb federal deficits and
rein in galloping VA costs, are targeting 1.3 million veterans who claim
priority group 7 or 8 status and have access to VA care.

Priority group 8 veterans have no service-connected disabilities and
annual incomes, or net worth, that exceed VA means-test thresholds and
VA "geographic income" thresholds, which are set by family size.

Priority Group 7 veterans also have no service-connected disabilities
and their incomes are above the means-test thresholds. But their incomes
or net worth fall below the geographic index. In other words, because of
where they live, in high cost areas, they likely struggle financially.

Joseph Violante, national legislative director for Disabled American
Veterans, said he first learned of the committee's interest in possibly
narrowing access to VA clinics and hospitals from a DAV member from
Wisconsin, chairman Ryan's home state.

Violante and other DAV officials arranged their own meeting with a staff
member for the committee. He confirmed growing interest in a cost-saving
initiative to push priority 7 and 8 veterans out of VA health care.

As this budget committee staffer reminded Violante, proponents for
opening VA health care to all veterans had argued it would be cost
neutral to VA. That's because VA would charge these vets modest
co-payments for their care. Also VA would bill these veterans' private
health insurance plans for the cost of their VA care.

That argument from 1996 turned out to be wrong. Co-payments collected
from low-priority veterans and private insurance plan billings today
cover only 18 percent of the cost of care for group 7 and 8 veterans. By
2009, the annual net cost to VA to treat these veterans totaled $4.4
billion or 11 percent of VA's annual medical appropriation.

The figures come from the Congressional Budget Office's annual report to
Congress, "Reducing the Deficit: Spending and Revenue Options." Among
options it presented this year to the new Congress for reducing VA
spending is one to close enrollment in VA care for all veterans in
groups 7 and 8 and to cancel the enrollment of veterans currently in two
low priority groups.

CBO said this would save VA $62 billion in the first 10 years, from 2012
to 2021. But the net savings to the government over the same period, CBO
said, would be about half that amount. That's because many of the
veterans bumped from VA are old enough or poor enough to use Medicare or
Medicaid, which would drive up the cost of those programs.

We asked a committee spokesman for comment, both by e-mail and voice
mail, but none came in time for this column's deadline.

Until the mid-1990s, VA had denied health care to priority 7 and 8
veterans. Congress changed that during the Clinton administration,
enacting the Veterans' Health Care Eligibility Act of 1996. The law
directed VA to build many more clinics across the country. To ensure
enough patients to fill these clinics, the VA secretary was given
authority to expand care eligibility.

The ban on group 7 and 8 veterans was ended by 1999. Over the next three
years their enrollment climbed to 30 percent of total enrollees. By
2003, then-VA Secretary Anthony Principi stopped allowing any more group
8 enrollments, saying their numbers strained the system for higher
priority veterans, including wounded returning from Afghanistan and
Iraq.

It's possible that, in sharing what the budget committee eyed do to
lower VA health costs, the professional staffer assumed DAV would
embrace cancellation of 7 and 8 enrollments because few DAV members
would be impacted. But Violante said DAV is concerned, for two reasons.

One, some DAV members separated from service with disabilities rated at
0 percent do have access to VA health care as group 7 or 8 veterans.

A bigger concern for his members, Violante said, is that tossing 1.3
million veterans from VA care would leave the system without the
"critical mass" of patients needed to provide "a full continuum of
care."

DAV officials worried that an initiative to narrow VA enrollment would
be included in the House Republican budget plan unveiled this week. Ryan
titled it "Path to Prosperity" and the full committee endorsed it on a
straight party line vote April 6. The budget package, however, doesn't
mention any change to enrollment eligibility nor call for significant
cuts to VA budgets. Violante said DAV wants to talk House committees out
of taking any action to reduce VA enrollment.

CBO presented pros and cons for cancelling 7 and 8 enrollments. An
advantage is VA could refocus services on "its traditional group of
patients -- those with the greatest needs or fewest financial
resources."

It noted 90 percent of group 7 and 8 enrollees had other health care
coverage, either Medicare or private insurance. So the "vast majority"
cut loose would have ready access to other coverage. Those who don't
could be eligible for health insurance exchanges to be set up in the
future said CBO.

One disadvantage is that many veterans who have come to rely on VA for
at least part of their medical care would see that care interrupted.

The Obama administration and Congress actually had been moving in the
opposite direction, to expand VA enrollment, until Republicans won the
House. As Obama took office in 2009, VA announced that up to 266,000
veterans with no service-connected health conditions would be allowed to
enroll in VA health care. Rep. Chet Edwards (D-Texas) had fought
successfully to add $350 million to the 2009 VA budget so income
thresholds controlling priority 8 enrollments could be raised 10
percent.

Edwards lost his reelection bid last year. And new priority 8 enrollees
haven't rushed to join the system as VA officials had expected.

Group 8 and 7 veterans using VA care pay $15 per outpatient visit and a
little more for specialty care. Inpatient fees also are modest. The most
popular benefit for many enrollees is discounted prescription drugs. The
co-pay usually is $8 for a 30-day supply.

Tim Tetz with American Legion said his organization and many veterans
groups would strongly oppose tossing out group 7 and 8 veterans. He
credits their enrollment since 1999 as helping to improve VA care.

"If as great of a health care system as we have, shouldn't we let all of
our veterans have access to it, in some manner," Tetz asked.

While deficit hawks weigh this issue, VA still is enrolling new group 8
veterans who fall below its income thresholds. Those without dependents
and living outside high-cost areas, for example, must have income below
a means test threshold of $32,342. More information on group 8
enrollment is online at www.va.gov/healtheligibility or call (877)
222-VETS (8387).


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:29:21 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Obama is a natural born American citizen.

The only American citizens who are not "natural born" are those who
immigrated (legally) and then did the whole citizenship thing. Being
born in another country is still "natural born" if one or both of your
parents are American citizens. The "birthers" whining about this are
simply morons, whether they are racist or not.

Im surprised you are ignorant of the subject.. A pity indeed.

Why Obama cannot be a natural born Citizen

A LEGAL ANALYSIS OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP

by Jim Delaney

John A. Bingham, author of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution,
which was intended to confer U.S. citizenship to the children of slaves
born in the U.S.

(Apr. 5, 2010) - Obama, born in 1961 of a U.S. Citizen mother and a
British Citizen (born in Kenya) father, was born a "U.S. Citizen" by
virtue of his mother's U.S. Citizenship...

The 14th Amendment was adopted in 1868. Just how old is this guy, anyway?
d8-)

; however, since Obama's father
was not a U.S. Citizen and thus not "attached to the U.S.," Obama, even
if born of a U.S. Citizen mother within the jurisdiction of the United
States, is not, by definition and Constitutional intent, a "natural born
Citizen" as is specifically required by Article II, Section 1 (the
Presidential Clause) of the U.S. Constitution, and is, therefore,
ineligible to serve as President.

British citizenship was conferred to Obama at birth by act of British
law. Thus, he is born of dual citizenship.

snip


John Bingham, commenting on Sec. 1992, stated that "every human being
born within the jurisdiction of the U.S. of parents [plural] not owing
allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of the
Constitution itself, a natural born citizen." (Very definitive for
purposes both of the 14th Amendment and the Presidential Clause.)

Except that John Bingham was a congressman from Ohio, not a Justice of the
Supreme Court.


See Perkins vs. ELG, US 325 (1939) ruling which provides the two
criteria expressed by Rep. John Bingham must exist before one can be
called a "natural born citizen."

Perkins vs. ELG, US 325 (1939), from the Court's opinion, citing precedents:

"Young Steinkauler is a native-born American citizen. There is no law of the
United States under which his father or any other person can deprive him of
his birthright. He can return to America at the age of twenty-one, and in
due time, if the people elect, he can become President of the United
States."

"United States v. Wong Kim Ark, supra, p. 169 U. S. 668. As municipal law
determines how citizenship may be acquired, it follows that persons may have
a dual nationality. [Footnote 1] And the mere fact that the plaintiff may
have acquired Swedish citizenship by virtue of the operation of Swedish law
on the resumption of that citizenship by her parents does not compel the
conclusion that she has lost her own citizenship acquired under our law. As
at birth she became a citizen of the United States, that citizenship must be
deemed to continue unless she has been deprived of it through the operation
of a treaty or congressional enactment or by her voluntary action in
conformity with applicable legal principles.

"Second. It has long been a recognized principle in this country that, if a
child born here is taken during minority to the country of his parents'
origin, where his parents resume their former allegiance, he does not
thereby lose his citizenship in the United States provided that, on
attaining majority he elects to retain that citizenship and to return to the
United States to assume its duties. [Footnote 2] "

The writer is a sophist and a phony -- just your kind of guy, Gunner.

You've really got to start being skeptical of these wingers who try to
overwhelm you with citations. If they run more than a few hundred words,
it's pretty consistent that they're just trying to give you a snow job.

Here, the clown you quote from has the audacity to make misrepresentative
quotes, attempting to show that the case says one thing, when its conclusion
was just the opposite. The whole ELG case is a flat contradiction of the
birther argument.

Better luck next time, Gunner. Or, better yet, read the damned things you're
quoting from third-hand.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 12:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


Professor Will appears to have jumped the gun. Here's the latest example:

" [R]espondents were asked whether they agreed with various
characterizations of different racial groups. Only 35 percent of those
who
strongly approve of the tea party agreed that blacks are hardworking,
compared with 55 percent of those who strongly disapprove of the tea
party.
On whether blacks were intelligent, 45 percent of the tea-party
supporters
agreed, compared with 59 percent of the tea-party opponents. And on the
issue of whether blacks were trustworthy, 41 percent of the tea-party
supporters agreed, compared with 57 percent of the tea-party opponents.

"The survey, which included about 1,000 respondents in six battleground
states (like Michigan and Nevada) and California, found similar margins
on
questions regarding Latinos."

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/mssrp_table.pdf

George tends to fall in love with his own rhetorical skills and to go off
half-cocked when he thinks he has a great insight. His "insight" this
time
appears to be that the Tea Party is the second coming of his beloved
Burkean
conservatives, with a strong libertarian bent. The evidence is that not
everyone in the Tea Party is a racist, but that racists seem to gravitate
toward the Tea Party -- something like Muslims and terrorists.

--
Ed Huntress

It would be interesting if the same questions were asked about white
folks. It could be that members of the Tea Party have a lower opinion
about everyone. In fact I would expect members of a group that thinks
the government is not hard working, trustworthy, or intelligent, would
also think everyone is the same way.

Dan

That's an interesting thought. I'd like to see such a study, too.

--
Ed Huntress


There was study on racism performed in Nov, 2008.
About 95% of blacks voted for a black for president over a white.
Mikek

"amdx" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 12:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


Professor Will appears to have jumped the gun. Here's the latest
example:

" [R]espondents were asked whether they agreed with various
characterizations of different racial groups. Only 35 percent of those
who
strongly approve of the tea party agreed that blacks are hardworking,
compared with 55 percent of those who strongly disapprove of the tea
party.
On whether blacks were intelligent, 45 percent of the tea-party
supporters
agreed, compared with 59 percent of the tea-party opponents. And on the
issue of whether blacks were trustworthy, 41 percent of the tea-party
supporters agreed, compared with 57 percent of the tea-party opponents.

"The survey, which included about 1,000 respondents in six battleground
states (like Michigan and Nevada) and California, found similar margins
on
questions regarding Latinos."

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/mssrp_table.pdf

George tends to fall in love with his own rhetorical skills and to go
off
half-cocked when he thinks he has a great insight. His "insight" this
time
appears to be that the Tea Party is the second coming of his beloved
Burkean
conservatives, with a strong libertarian bent. The evidence is that not
everyone in the Tea Party is a racist, but that racists seem to
gravitate
toward the Tea Party -- something like Muslims and terrorists.

--
Ed Huntress

It would be interesting if the same questions were asked about white
folks. It could be that members of the Tea Party have a lower opinion
about everyone. In fact I would expect members of a group that thinks
the government is not hard working, trustworthy, or intelligent, would
also think everyone is the same way.

Dan

That's an interesting thought. I'd like to see such a study, too.

--
Ed Huntress


There was study on racism performed in Nov, 2008.
About 95% of blacks voted for a black for president over a white.
Mikek

So did I.

That's smart. What's dumb is blue-collar white men voting for a washed-up
old Republican.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 19:49:04 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Budget Panel Eyes End to VA Care for 1.3 Million Vets

The House Budget Committee, chaired by Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), has told
a veterans' group it is studying a plan to save $6 billion annually in
VA health care costs by canceling enrollment of any veteran who doesn't
have a service-related medical condition and is not poor.

Committee Republicans, searching for ways to curb federal deficits and
rein in galloping VA costs, are targeting 1.3 million veterans who claim
priority group 7 or 8 status and have access to VA care.
===========
Old gag --

Nothing is too good for our citizens that served in the
military -- so thats what we gave them...

Now about those promises of lifetime medical care...
(1) your checks in the mail
(2) Of course I will respect you in the morning
(3) I'm from the gumment and I'm here to help you...


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On 2011-04-16, Karl Townsend wrote:
I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

O.K. First off -- I would shield the run to the computer -- at
2400 baud, the data rate should be able to handle 50 feet with no
problems. Ground the shield (pin 5 on the connector shown), and connect
the other two wires to the shielded twisted pair.

How far are the sensors from the board? If you are using only
one sensor, and it is mounted on the board, this should be enough. (Put
the board and sensor in a cage made of brass screen material soldered at
the seams and connected to the gound pin.

If you are using multiple sensors, use another shielded twisted
pair to each sensor -- again with the ground pin (pin 1) connected to
the shield. I don't know how fast the data on pin 2 is, but that and
the capacitance between the pin 2 lead and the shield would determine
the maximum safe line length.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

This is probably the communication between the sensors and
the board. The longer the wires, the greater the amount of radiation.
Find some shielded twisted pair to shield each run from the board to the
sensors, and from the board to the computer. This will probably reduce
the maximum line length but if you aren't using really long lines
anyway, it should work.

You can use some of the cable used for Cat5 network runs between
the hub/switch and the wall jacks for the ethernet -- if there is a foil
shield around the twisted pair -- usually with an uninsulated drain wire
making contact with the foil shield. Just make sure that this is
connected to the ground pin on each connector, and you should be in
pretty good shape.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

Try the shielded lines first. They will probably fix most of
the problems.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Apr 16, 8:23*pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2011-04-16, Karl Townsend wrote:

I built a serial port temp. sensor years ago based on this fella's
work:
http://quozl.netrek.org/ts/

And just bought kit 145 from carl's electronics:
http://www.kitsrus.com/pdf/k145.pdf

The unit uses DS1820 temp sensors and connects to the pc serial port.
There is a fifty foot run from the computer to the sensor.

* * * * O.K. *First off -- I would shield the run to the computer -- at
2400 baud, the data rate should be able to handle 50 feet with no
problems. *Ground the shield (pin 5 on the connector shown), and connect
the other two wires to the shielded twisted pair.

* * * * How far are the sensors from the board? *If you are using only
one sensor, and it is mounted on the board, this should be enough. *(Put
the board and sensor in a cage made of brass screen material soldered at
the seams and connected to the gound pin.

* * * * If you are using multiple sensors, use another shielded twisted
pair to each sensor -- again with the ground pin (pin 1) connected to
the shield. *I don't know how fast the data on pin 2 is, but that and
the capacitance between the pin 2 lead and the shield would determine
the maximum safe line length.

My better half made me quit using it because of AM radio interference.
There is a constant beep beep beep.

* * * * This is probably the communication between the sensors and
the board. *The longer the wires, the greater the amount of radiation.
Find some shielded twisted pair to shield each run from the board to the
sensors, and from the board to the computer. *This will probably reduce
the maximum line length but if you aren't using really long lines
anyway, it should work.

* * * * You can use some of the cable used for Cat5 network runs between
the hub/switch and the wall jacks for the ethernet -- if there is a foil
shield around the twisted pair -- usually with an uninsulated drain wire
making contact with the foil shield. *Just make sure that this is
connected to the ground pin on each connector, and you should be in
pretty good shape.

I'm once again in need of 24 X 7 temp. logging. Is there an easy way
to salvage this unit? Or am I better off to just start over with some
sort of analog unit?

* * * * Try the shielded lines first. *They will probably fix most of
the problems.

* * * * Enjoy,
* * * * * * * * DoN.

--
* * * * * * * * * Remove oil spill source from e-mail
*Email: * | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
* * * * * (too) near Washington D.C. |http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
* * * * * *--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Don (and everyone else) -

Seriously, folks. If Karl REALLY needs to monitor the temperature
CONSTANTLY, then all this shielding and grounding and filtering would
be the way to go, BUT, how fast is the temperature going to change? A
couple of lines of code and you can toggle DTR when you want a
reading. I can't imagine any drastic temperature changes occurring in
less than a few minutes. Just take a reading and go to sleep for a
while. Nobody's going to notice a tiny burst of RF every 15 minutes.

Seriously, folks. If Karl REALLY needs to monitor the temperature
CONSTANTLY, then all this shielding and grounding and filtering would
be the way to go, BUT, how fast is the temperature going to change? A
couple of lines of code and you can toggle DTR when you want a
reading. I can't imagine any drastic temperature changes occurring in
less than a few minutes. Just take a reading and go to sleep for a
while. Nobody's going to notice a tiny burst of RF every 15 minutes.

yep, I need ten readings an hour. This unit has a chip programmed to
sample constantly. The computer fires up once every six minutes and
records a reading.

I played with 1wire, a DS1820, and visual basic. I was not able to
make it work. Not my area of expertise. I'm going to get another
chance as i need to read an anolog voltage for a leaf wetness meter
too.

I should be able to install a shielded cable in a couple hours.

Karl

Gunner Asch on Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:05:43 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:29:21 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Obama is a natural born American citizen.

The only American citizens who are not "natural born" are those who
immigrated (legally) and then did the whole citizenship thing. Being
born in another country is still "natural born" if one or both of your
parents are American citizens. The "birthers" whining about this are
simply morons, whether they are racist or not.

It's not just Obama's original birth certificate at issue. WND has
reported that among the documentation not yet available for Obama
includes his kindergarten records, his Punahou school records, his
Occidental College records, his Columbia University records, his
Columbia thesis, his Harvard Law School records, his Harvard Law Review
articles, his scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his
passport, his medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois
state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism
records, and his adoption records.

Read mo Unveiled! Hawaii's 1961 long-form birth certificates
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=105347#ixzz1Jj5mAfrF


Hmmm, it is starting to appear that Obama isn't ral, but could
just be a sock puppet, hired to play a role.

At least the actor hired in "Double Star" was able to conclude an
important treaty with the locals.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Apr 16, 9:57*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
Seriously, folks. If Karl REALLY needs to monitor the temperature
CONSTANTLY, then all this shielding and grounding and filtering would
be the way to go, BUT, how fast is the temperature going to change? A
couple of lines of code and you can toggle DTR when you want a
reading. I can't imagine any drastic temperature changes occurring in
less than a few minutes. Just take a reading and go to sleep for a
while. Nobody's going to notice a tiny burst of RF every 15 minutes.

yep, I need ten readings an hour. This unit has a chip programmed to
sample constantly. The computer fires up once every six minutes and
records a reading.

I played with 1wire, a DS1820, and visual basic. I was not able to
make it work. Not my area of expertise. I'm going to get another
chance as i need to read an anolog voltage for a leaf wetness meter
too.

I should be able to install a shielded cable in a couple hours.

Karl

If, between readings, you make sure that DTR goes low, the remote unit
will have no power and won't transmit anything.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 03:23:39 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Apr 16, 9:57*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
Seriously, folks. If Karl REALLY needs to monitor the temperature
CONSTANTLY, then all this shielding and grounding and filtering would
be the way to go, BUT, how fast is the temperature going to change? A
couple of lines of code and you can toggle DTR when you want a
reading. I can't imagine any drastic temperature changes occurring in
less than a few minutes. Just take a reading and go to sleep for a
while. Nobody's going to notice a tiny burst of RF every 15 minutes.

yep, I need ten readings an hour. This unit has a chip programmed to
sample constantly. The computer fires up once every six minutes and
records a reading.

I played with 1wire, a DS1820, and visual basic. I was not able to
make it work. Not my area of expertise. I'm going to get another
chance as i need to read an anolog voltage for a leaf wetness meter
too.

I should be able to install a shielded cable in a couple hours.

Karl

If, between readings, you make sure that DTR goes low, the remote unit
will have no power and won't transmit anything.

Would you be willing to provide an example in visual basic? If I could
get an example of how to shut it off for five minutes and then take a
reading, I could take it from there. Sorry VB6 is the only language I
have ANY knowledge.

Karl