On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 15:56:44 -0500, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net
wrote:



Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 08:13:37 -0500, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net
wrote:

Perhaps you could state what you think the pertinent part is.

You act as if the federal budget for this year
is some big secret that you have uncovered.



" And the
administration says it will reach $15.476 trillion by Sept. 30, the end
of the fiscal year, to reach 102.6 percent of gross domestic product"

So there will be rapid growth indeed...but it certainly wont be economic
growth....in fact....it appears that a national debt thats 102.6 percent
MORE than GDP outweighs ANY economic growth.

The administration didn't pass the budget.
Congress passed the budget and the figures
are well known to anybody who is paying attention.

You mean the Democrat controlled Congress passed a $15.476
deficeit...thats 102.6 percent of the gross GDP..which means that its
2.6 LARGE than the entire economy of the US.

yes that appears to be the incoherent version
of what you posted earlier.


Thanks for your admission.

Your welcome


So what else could it mean?

No..son..take your fingers out of your ears..hey! Stop spinning in
circles and singing a childs nursery tune....!!!

It only makes you look foolish and...Leftwing...snicker

Gunner

--

"You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once."
Robert A. Heinlein

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 16:12:35 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sun, 3 Apr 2011 15:19:33 -0400, "Tom Gardner" w@w
wrote:

snip
Interesting article! Do you think that the pressure to unseat the
Dollar as the reserve currency will succeed and will it devastate the
US like I think it will?
snip

IMNSHO -- the US dollar does not appear to be under any sort
of massive coordinated attack, but rather is committing
suicide.

The major US creditors such as the PRC, OPEC countries and
Japan are losing massive amounts of purchasing power because
of US dollar devaluation [QE], and will lose even more if
the Dollar loses its reserve status.

To be sure there are most likely groups and individuals
speculating against the US dollar and US denominated
securities by shorting and/or derivatives, as Soros did
against the UK Pound, but as the Godfather says, its
nothing personal, its just business, and while they are
planning to take advantage of the situation, they are not
[directly] causing it to depreciate. Indeed the speculators
have no need to act as Congress and the FRB are doing a very
effective job.

One red flag [as in run, don't walk for the exits] will be a
shift in OPEC oil pricing from US Dollars to Euros and/or
Yuan or a big increase in international counter trade.


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).


Just got done watching 60 Minutes and their article about the banks
committing fraud by forging mortgage documents. Millons of such
documents....

Fascinating..utterly fascinating.

I would bet that there is a number of HUGE class action suits about to
be dropped on those very same banks....

VBG

Maybe some of those people will be given their homes back..free and
clear.

Gunner

--

"You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once."
Robert A. Heinlein

Spoken like a true troll wondering why it is always so quiet in these
groups, for him.

Need some links to this same comment to a few hundred different posters?
------------

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Tom, we'd all be happier if you just plonked him and forgot him.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Apr 2011 22:20:00 -0400, "Tom Gardner" w@w wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip

I see you have maintained your selective editing skills. I especially
like the way you pluck out of context and reassemble words and
phrases, the mark of a true craftsman. Well done! Have a great life
Ed!

Tom, we'd all be happier if you just plonked him and forgot him.

Who's "we," Larry? You and the other cullers who think it's a good idea to
threaten elected officials with guns?

--
Ed Huntress

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Tom, we'd all be happier if you just plonked him and forgot him.


Onward and upward! Did I send you the link to my new website?

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
snip

Just got done watching 60 Minutes and their article about the banks
committing fraud by forging mortgage documents. Millons of such
documents....

Fascinating..utterly fascinating.

I would bet that there is a number of HUGE class action suits about
to
be dropped on those very same banks....

VBG

Maybe some of those people will be given their homes back..free and
clear.

Gunner


Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust off "Old
Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
Maybe some of those people will be given their homes back..free and
clear.

Gunner

Not likley, after the bank forcloses and sells a home at a short sale
they very often sue the former homeowner to recover any loss they
suffered at the short sale. Typicaly the bank will sue just before the
statutes of limitations voids the debt. They are giving people time
to accumulate assets they will try to seize. Your gonna see a huge
increase in these type of suits in 3 to 7 years depending on which
state the debt is owed. Also a lot of that is being sold to collection
angencies who sue at a later date. The scam never ends.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 15:06:03 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

They're trying to regain the mantle of being the fiscally conservative
party, which they were at one time but which they completely abandoned
under Reagan. When you're in a recession with high unemployment, it's
not difficult to play the demagogue and win votes from people who are
looking for anything that sounds like an answer.

It's a good time, politically, to revive all of their old chestnuts.
They'd resurrect Herbert Hoover if they could. d8-)

I wonder if they actually know better, and are just playing on the lack
of economics education on the part of most voters, or if they actually
believe their nonsense. I'm not sure. Most likely, it's some of each.

Joseph Stiglitz argues in the Vanity Fair that it's not about any
particular economic theory, but rather a corrupt system where the policy
is handled by the top 1% of wealth owners. He calls it the government "Of
the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%":

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/fe...percent-201105

He points out that the widening income inequality is unsustainable and
will eventually hurt the 1% as well, but they don't seem to act on it yet.

"Przemek Klosowski" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 15:06:03 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

They're trying to regain the mantle of being the fiscally conservative
party, which they were at one time but which they completely abandoned
under Reagan. When you're in a recession with high unemployment, it's
not difficult to play the demagogue and win votes from people who are
looking for anything that sounds like an answer.

It's a good time, politically, to revive all of their old chestnuts.
They'd resurrect Herbert Hoover if they could. d8-)

I wonder if they actually know better, and are just playing on the lack
of economics education on the part of most voters, or if they actually
believe their nonsense. I'm not sure. Most likely, it's some of each.

Joseph Stiglitz argues in the Vanity Fair that it's not about any
particular economic theory, but rather a corrupt system where the policy
is handled by the top 1% of wealth owners. He calls it the government "Of
the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%":

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/fe...percent-201105

He points out that the widening income inequality is unsustainable and
will eventually hurt the 1% as well, but they don't seem to act on it yet.

I wish he's expanded more on that point, but columns have to fit into
defined spaces. Let's see if people begin to get it. The last two times we
faced something like this -- during the Robber Baron era and during the
Great Depression -- people eventually got it. And the result was the growth
of the middle class, first under Progressivism and then under the New Deal.

Now we have a populist movement that's bought into the sales pitch of the
plutocrats. It may be the first time we've had a populist movement bent on
cutting its own throats.

--
Ed Huntress

Gunner Asch on Sun, 03 Apr 2011 20:08:43 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).


Just got done watching 60 Minutes and their article about the banks
committing fraud by forging mortgage documents. Millons of such
documents....

Fascinating..utterly fascinating.

I would bet that there is a number of HUGE class action suits about to
be dropped on those very same banks....

VBG

Maybe some of those people will be given their homes back..free and
clear.

Bunch of the Judges in Florida, are just flat slapping the Banks
down, and awarding title free and clear to the home owner.

quote "Angry and exasperated by faulty foreclosure documents, judges
throughout Florida are hitting back by increasingly dismissing cases
and boldly accusing lawyers of "fraud upon the court." " unquote.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/f...r-1369862.html

More quotes
""It's not that they [the judges] don't care," she said. "They have
thousands of cases on their docket and it's the same thing over and
over again."

Ongoing scrutiny by the FBI, the Florida attorney general, the Florida
Bar, the media and defense attorneys has uncovered countless examples
of forged signatures, post-dated documents, robo-signing and lost
paperwork."

Oops.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"azotic" on Sun, 3 Apr 2011 21:51:59 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
Maybe some of those people will be given their homes back..free and
clear.

Gunner

Not likley, after the bank forcloses and sells a home at a short sale
they very often sue the former homeowner to recover any loss they
suffered at the short sale. Typicaly the bank will sue just before the
statutes of limitations voids the debt. They are giving people time
to accumulate assets they will try to seize. Your gonna see a huge
increase in these type of suits in 3 to 7 years depending on which
state the debt is owed. Also a lot of that is being sold to collection
angencies who sue at a later date. The scam never ends.

Right up until the judge holds the bank/collection agency in
contempt, and voids the whole she-bang.

--
pyotr filipivich
Friends help you move, good friends help you move bodies. Really good
friends remove bodies, bloodstains and hot cars, then collect the IDs,
weapons and useful stuff." _After the Dragon's Egg_, the unbegun novel.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"azotic" on Sun, 3 Apr 2011 21:51:59 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
Maybe some of those people will be given their homes back..free and
clear.

Gunner

Not likley, after the bank forcloses and sells a home at a short sale
they very often sue the former homeowner to recover any loss they
suffered at the short sale. Typicaly the bank will sue just before the
statutes of limitations voids the debt. They are giving people time
to accumulate assets they will try to seize. Your gonna see a huge
increase in these type of suits in 3 to 7 years depending on which
state the debt is owed. Also a lot of that is being sold to collection
angencies who sue at a later date. The scam never ends.

Right up until the judge holds the bank/collection agency in
contempt, and voids the whole she-bang.

--
pyotr filipivich

That has happened in of all places Kalifornia.

Best Regards
Tom.

On 4/3/2011 4:25 AM, wrote:
On Apr 3, 2:39 am, wrote:

As for redistribution of tax revenue,
yep, I'm all for it. But then that's what all taxes are for
redistributing wealth for the common good. You do understand that is
what taxes are for do you not?


Hawke

You are wrong when you say taxes are for redistributing wealth. If
that were true, all the tax revenue would be given to the low income
people.
In fact taxes are used to pay for the government expenses.
Redistribution is not a primary goal.

Dan



Dan, all taxes redistribute wealth. That's a fact. Not really debatable.

Hawke

On 4/3/2011 11:38 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Apr 3, 2:39 am, wrote:

As for redistribution of tax revenue,
yep, I'm all for it. But then that's what all taxes are for
redistributing wealth for the common good. You do understand that is
what taxes are for do you not?


Hawke

You are wrong when you say taxes are for redistributing wealth. If
that were true, all the tax revenue would be given to the low income
people.
In fact taxes are used to pay for the government expenses.
Redistribution is not a primary goal.

Dan
***********

Increasing the taxes to get the government out of trouble is OK by me.
The problem I see is that this government will just squander even
MORE! It's like giving a bigger dose of heroine to an addict in order
to cure him. If this government would prove they can act responsibly
I'd be fine with increased taxes but they can't or won't. I'd love to
know just what percentage of money that goes to every program that is
wasted or stolen and what programs are pure political paybacks and
graft.



That's what the budget is for. Everything the government does first has
to be budgeted for. If you actually looked at the budget you would see
where the government is spending the vast majority of the revenue it
takes in. It's all going to worthwhile causes like health care for the
elderly, and social security, and to the military. Most of it is well
spent on what the American people want it spent on. Is there a lot of
waste and fraud going on in as big a budget as ours is? You bet. But
it's a rounding error compared to where most of the money is going.
Sorry to burst your bubble.

Hawke

On Apr 4, 2:54*am, Hawke wrote:

You are wrong when you say taxes are for redistributing wealth. *If
that were true, all the tax revenue would be given to the low income
people.
In fact taxes are used to pay for the government expenses.
Redistribution is not a primary goal.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan

Dan, all taxes redistribute wealth. That's a fact. Not really debatable.

Hawke

I did not say taxes do not redistribute wealth. I said the purpose
of taxes is not wealth distribution. Only a true believer would say
the purpose of taxes is to redistribute wealth. Your statement shows
a mind that has a lot of bias.

Dan

Tom Gardner wrote:


I'm from Wisconsin. This state has the best schools in the nation
And it is going to stay that way, in spite of
the efforts of people like you to tear our educational system down

Spoken like the indoctrinated fringe leftist that you are! What else
can you parrot for a cracker? It's obvious you've never had ANY
responsibility, honor or morals. No doubt a skilless atheist,
abortion loving truther on welfare with a substance abuse problem, a
few stints behind bars and you undoubtedly make children nervous.

The people of the state of Wisconsin encourage you and your friends to
invest as much money into state politics as you possibly can. Feel free
to send as much money to the state as you can muster. However, we are no
longer accepting any outside advice.

-jim

On Sun, 3 Apr 2011 23:49:04 -0400, "Tom Gardner" w@w wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
snip

Just got done watching 60 Minutes and their article about the banks
committing fraud by forging mortgage documents. Millons of such
documents....

Fascinating..utterly fascinating.

I would bet that there is a number of HUGE class action suits about
to
be dropped on those very same banks....

VBG

Maybe some of those people will be given their homes back..free and
clear.

Gunner


Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust off "Old
Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!

Perhaps someone (Ed's mafia friends?) could send their boys downtown
to knock off the dealers and steal their stash, then "invest" all of
it into the bankers in questions' veins. 3 birds with one stone, wot?
Dealers, badassbankers, and drugs all off the streets at once.

Works for me.

--
Not merely an absence of noise, Real Silence begins
when a reasonable being withdraws from the noise in
order to find peace and order in his inner sanctuary.
-- Peter Minard

On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:19:25 -0700, Rich Grise
wrote:
snip
After reading you note this morning I went looking for anything
about this (little problem) on the news sites.

One video report (on Fox, of course - 80% sure it won't happen).

Nothing anywhere else that I saw.

I guess they are all saving it for a surprise?
=============
Not so much a surprise as more important news like Barry
Bonds steroid use crowded it off the radar.
snip
===========
For more on this point see
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...FdfC_blog.html

While the temporary inhabitants of Versailles on the Potomac
have problems understanding what the word "NO!" means, the
concept of a lack of money to fund the lifestyles and
adventures of the rich and useless seems to be getting
through.


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust off "Old
Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!

Perhaps someone (Ed's mafia friends?) could send their boys downtown
to knock off the dealers and steal their stash, then "invest" all of
it into the bankers in questions' veins. 3 birds with one stone,
wot?
Dealers, badassbankers, and drugs all off the streets at once.

Works for me.


Too bad that the era of consequences is long past. Oh well. I'm glad
I'm old and won't live to see the new era of consequences...and bible
thumpers think Sodom and Gomorrah were bad.

Tom Gardner wrote:

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust off "Old
Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!


China would line them up and shoot them.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tom Gardner wrote:

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust off
"Old
Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!


China would line them up and shoot them.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-AidT on it, because
it's
Teflon coated.


And then charge the family for the cartridge. My family would gladly
buy a whole box sometimes!

Tom Gardner wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tom Gardner wrote:

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust off
"Old
Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!


China would line them up and shoot them.

And then charge the family for the cartridge. My family would gladly
buy a whole box sometimes!


A lot of people would pay for a box or two.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tom Gardner wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tom Gardner wrote:

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust off
"Old
Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!


China would line them up and shoot them.

And then charge the family for the cartridge. My family would
gladly
buy a whole box sometimes!


A lot of people would pay for a box or two.



For you TOO! Some people don't like to be disagreed with.

On 4/3/2011 2:31 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

I'm not preaching. I'm correcting mistaken information.

Well, I'm all for getting accurate information. But if it does no good
toward convincing those on the right; and if those on the left already
know it and agree, then it hasn't much value, has it?

I write for money. When I write here, it's for practice, for entertainment,
or for beating on bullies. As it happens, they're usually so cavelier with
facts, and so sloppy in their thinking and their posts, that they're not
hard to beat upon.

Yes that's true but there like the kind of guy you beat the **** out of
five times and he still goes around denying it.


Otherwise, I try to pass along some useful info about cutting tools and
materials when those things come up and a thread looks like it needs some
detail or attention. And once in a while, with a few participants here,
including John, Wes, Winston, Richard, and a few others, I just enjoy
passing the time in pleasant conversation.

Too bad there's so darn few you can do that with. Could that be because
so many guys here are such far right conservatives?


I only ask because if you aren't ultimately trying to change hearts and
minds then everything you say is only academic. I know it's pretty
difficult to get anyone the right to change their mind about anything. But
that's the challenge, isn't it?

It's not one I'd engage in, unless there was money in it.

I find it amuses me even though it's not a money making activity.


Besides that, every time you do get one to come over to the correct side
they usually become zealots for the progressive point of view. Case in
point, David Brock, head of media matters or another liberal organization
whose name I forget. He used to be a solid right winger that hung out with
all the "name" right wingers. Now he's on the progressive side. Every time
you get one of them to crossover it's a real victory. Kind of like
smelling napalm in the morning.

Brock switched sides when he could no longer take being in the gay closet
among right-wingers. He also started to feel guilty about writing a book of
lies (his own words) about Anita Hill ("A little bit nutty and a little bit
slutty"). He was given a big Mercedes-Benz for writing that book, along with
money. It made him feel like a creep.

Everyone on the right knew Brock was gay. It was no secret. But he was
doing their dirty work so they tolerated him. I well remember him when
he was an anti progressive right winger. He fit right in with that
crowd. I remember when Ariana Huffington was the same way. I'd like to
know what it was that really made them see the light.



Do you really think that Gunner or Tom are going to change their minds
because of facts? Or most of the other righties? Or the lefties, for that
matter?

You never know what it will be that changes someone. But if you don't
try it never happens, and it never happens with most. But it does happen
more frequently than you think. It's like turning spies. You would think
people spying for their country would be such patriots that none of them
could ever be turned but the reality is even the most fervent believers
can be changed. There's a real art to it. But some people are just too
dumb to ever change. If you know what I mean.


I don't think so. Ideology is like religion, and correcting their mistaken
facts is like trying to teach a pig to sing. If you post facts, the most you
do is put a bend in their space/time grid for a few minutes. They forget it
before they write their next post.



Sometimes you need to lie to get them to change. Facts won't always do
it. But the point is even the biggest zealot can change their minds. It
happens. I do agree it's a waste of time trying to do it for the likes
of Gunner and Tom. But like you I enjoy putting out the truth. It's like
pearls before swine for most but some do see the light, and that makes
it worth it.

Hawke

On Apr 6, 8:36*pm, Hawke wrote:


Sometimes you need to lie to get them to change. Facts won't always do
it. But the point is even the biggest zealot can change their minds. It
happens. I do agree it's a waste of time trying to do it for the likes
of Gunner and Tom. But like you I enjoy putting out the truth. It's like
pearls before swine for most but some do see the light, and that makes
it worth it.

Hawke

So which is it? You enjoy putting out the truth or sometimes you need
to lie.

Dan

Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust off
"Old Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!

China would line them up and shoot them.

And then charge the family for the cartridge. My family would
gladly buy a whole box sometimes!

A lot of people would pay for a box or two.

For you TOO! Some people don't like to be disagreed with.


I was agreeing with you.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to
these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust
off
"Old Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!

China would line them up and shoot them.

And then charge the family for the cartridge. My family would
gladly buy a whole box sometimes!

A lot of people would pay for a box or two.

For you TOO! Some people don't like to be disagreed with.


I was agreeing with you.



I know, "some people" would buy the bullets to take either of us down
because we don't agree with them. For them, violence is a first
resort. I can't imagine that mind set.

Tom Gardner wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. What would happen to
these
clowns in other countries? Forget the wrist slapping, dust
off
"Old Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!

China would line them up and shoot them.

And then charge the family for the cartridge. My family would
gladly buy a whole box sometimes!

A lot of people would pay for a box or two.

For you TOO! Some people don't like to be disagreed with.


I was agreeing with you.



I know, "some people" would buy the bullets to take either of us down
because we don't agree with them. For them, violence is a first
resort. I can't imagine that mind set.


There are some really sick SOBs out there.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

On Apr 7, 12:58*pm, "Tom Gardner" w@w wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in messagenews:cfydndZYXqcXigDQnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@earth link.com...







Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Greed and stupidity go hand in hand. *What would happen to
these
clowns in other countries? *Forget the wrist slapping, dust
off
"Old Sparky" and just give then a LITTLE jolt!

* China would line them up and shoot them.

And then charge the family for the cartridge. *My family would
gladly buy a whole box sometimes!

* A lot of people would pay for a box or two.

For you TOO! *Some people don't like to be disagreed with.

* I was agreeing with you.

I know, "some people" would buy the bullets to take either of us down
because we don't agree with them. *For them, violence is a first
resort. *I can't imagine that mind set

I seriously doubt that there is anyone (especially in this group) who
cares enough about either of you one way or another to get involved
with such an endeavor.

On 4/6/2011 6:02 PM, wrote:
On Apr 6, 8:36 pm, wrote:


Sometimes you need to lie to get them to change. Facts won't always do
it. But the point is even the biggest zealot can change their minds. It
happens. I do agree it's a waste of time trying to do it for the likes
of Gunner and Tom. But like you I enjoy putting out the truth. It's like
pearls before swine for most but some do see the light, and that makes
it worth it.

Hawke

So which is it? You enjoy putting out the truth or sometimes you need
to lie.

Dan



Let me clear that up for you. When I said sometimes you have to lie I
wasn't talking about me personally but as a general rule. That being, to
get people with entrenched or closed minded views to change their mind
sometimes it takes some lies. I'm not passing judgment either, just
saying that sometimes the truth has to be forgotten if you want to
change a closed mind. I was thinking about changing someone like a
foreign spy to defect over to your side. Sometimes you have to lie to
them. Or when a cop is trying to get information. Sometimes they lie to
get it.

Do I use lying to get anyone to change their way of thinking. No. I like
to use reason and facts to persuade people that they are mistaken in
their views. So I was talking about two different situations.

Hawke