Is it safe to use a gage pin as a mandrel to do something like this?

http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...ire-on-pin.png

The wire is ER70S weld filler, nominally .062, and the pin would represent
the .160 OD screw shank I want to wrap around it, but I don't want to use a
brass screw as a mandrel to bend steel filler rod, because it could wreck
the screw, and I only have 8 of them, and they're like a buck and a
quarter a 4-pack!

But in the shop, they have a set of gage pins. Are gage pins hard
enough that I could use one as a mandrel to bend the copper-coated
steel wire around it without marring the gage pin? There's only
one rule here about my using the shop tools - I break it, I buy it.

The reason I'm doing this is because I'm assembling another one of
those "HDTV" 4-bay bowtie antennas, and the local Home Depot didn't
have any brass washers, and the heads of my expensive brass screws
are only .300 OD, so I don't want to try to catch my elements _and_
#14 Cu transmission lines under the screw heads without pre-forming
the elements and transmission lines.

So, is it OK? About the gage pin, I mean.

Thanks!
Rich

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:33:38 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Is it safe to use a gage pin as a mandrel to do something like this?

http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...ire-on-pin.png

The wire is ER70S weld filler, nominally .062, and the pin would represent
the .160 OD screw shank I want to wrap around it, but I don't want to use a
brass screw as a mandrel to bend steel filler rod, because it could wreck
the screw, and I only have 8 of them, and they're like a buck and a
quarter a 4-pack!

But in the shop, they have a set of gage pins. Are gage pins hard
enough that I could use one as a mandrel to bend the copper-coated
steel wire around it without marring the gage pin? There's only
one rule here about my using the shop tools - I break it, I buy it.

The reason I'm doing this is because I'm assembling another one of
those "HDTV" 4-bay bowtie antennas, and the local Home Depot didn't
have any brass washers, and the heads of my expensive brass screws
are only .300 OD, so I don't want to try to catch my elements _and_
#14 Cu transmission lines under the screw heads without pre-forming
the elements and transmission lines.

So, is it OK? About the gage pin, I mean.

Thanks!
Rich

That'd a little like using a micrometer as a C-clamp. Use the shank
of a 5/32" drill as a mandrel.

On Jan 22, 10:33*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
Is it safe to use a gage pin as a mandrel to do something like this?

http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...ire-on-pin.png

The wire is ER70S weld filler, nominally .062, and the pin would represent
the .160 OD screw shank I want to wrap around it, but I don't want to use a
brass screw as a mandrel to bend steel filler rod, because it could wreck
the screw, and I only have 8 of them, and they're like a buck and a
quarter a 4-pack!

But in the shop, they have a set of gage pins. Are gage *pins hard
enough that I could use one as a mandrel to bend the copper-coated
steel wire around it without marring the gage pin? There's only
one rule here about my using the shop tools - I break it, I buy it.

The reason I'm doing this is because I'm assembling another one of
those "HDTV" 4-bay bowtie antennas, and the local Home Depot didn't
have any brass washers, and the heads of my expensive brass screws
are only .300 OD, so I don't want to try to catch my elements _and_
#14 Cu transmission lines under the screw heads without pre-forming
the elements and transmission lines.

So, is it OK? About the gage pin, I mean.

Thanks!
Rich

A cheaper and less risky alternative might be to use a 16d (penny)
nail -- #8 wire gauge -- 0.162"

Denis G. wrote:
On Jan 22, 10:33*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
Is it safe to use a gage pin as a mandrel to do something like this?

http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...ire-on-pin.png
...
So, is it OK? About the gage pin, I mean.

A cheaper and less risky alternative might be to use a 16d (penny)
nail -- #8 wire gauge -- 0.162"

Yeah, duh. Don suggested a drill bit - I somehow got this idea in
my headbone; I know where the gage pins are, but not so sure about
the drill bits. Between then and now, I think I've remembered where
the drill bits are, but I'd have to actually go and _get_ a nail! ;-)

But thanks anyway!

Cheers!
Rich

On Jan 23, 2:34*am, Rich Grise wrote:
Denis G. wrote:
On Jan 22, 10:33*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
Is it safe to use a gage pin as a mandrel to do something like this?

http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...ire-on-pin.png
...
So, is it OK? About the gage pin, I mean.

A cheaper and less risky alternative might be to use a 16d (penny)
nail -- #8 wire gauge -- 0.162"

Yeah, duh. Don suggested a drill bit - I somehow got this idea in
my headbone; I know where the gage pins are, *but not so sure about
the drill bits. Between then and now, I think I've remembered where
the drill bits are, but I'd have to actually go and _get_ a nail! ;-)

But thanks anyway!

Cheers!
Rich

I'd bend the wire around a #6 screw and then open and round the loop
with a tapered punch. The problem with a hardened pin or even a drill
bit is that the amount of force you have to apply to it sideways to
deform the wire can snap it.

jsw

On Jan 22, 11:33*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
...
The reason I'm doing this is because I'm assembling another one of
those "HDTV" 4-bay bowtie antennas, ...
Thanks!
Rich

Why not use brass or aluminum wire? In my experience they are easier
to recondition when the contacts age and oxidize. The copper on
welding wire is very thin and doesn't last long.

Ox-gard keeps my exposed outdoor antenna connections conductive for
several years:
http://www.olypen.com/craigh/oxgard.htm

jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jan 22, 11:33*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
...
The reason I'm doing this is because I'm assembling another one of
those "HDTV" 4-bay bowtie antennas, ...
Thanks!
Rich

Why not use brass or aluminum wire? In my experience they are easier
to recondition when the contacts age and oxidize. The copper on
welding wire is very thin and doesn't last long.

I don't trust aluminum at all to make a reliable electical contact - I
wish it did, because there are some beautiful 3/16 aluminum rods here
that might be pure aluminum - they're really easy to bend to shape, but
if you try to unbend it, it breaks. But electricity-wise, we're talking
microvolts of signal here. and I just lifted the wilding rod from the
company's stock of bulk rods, so it was "free." =:-O (yes, stolen, but
they don't like inventory it - they don't even keep track of what they
use on a job - they just order more when it gets low.)

And I don't know where I'd get brass wire, or what I'd have to spend on
it. I can get copper household wiring at the Home Depot practically next-
door, but again, I'd have to shell out my hard-earned pennies. I _did_
buy enough #14 copper to do the transmission lines with, so it'd be the
copper-plated steel element and a loop of copper under each screw head.

Thanks!
Rich

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jan 23, 2:34*am, Rich Grise wrote:
Denis G. wrote:
On Jan 22, 10:33*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
Is it safe to use a gage pin as a mandrel to do something like this?

http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...ire-on-pin.png
...
So, is it OK? About the gage pin, I mean.

A cheaper and less risky alternative might be to use a 16d (penny)
nail -- #8 wire gauge -- 0.162"

Yeah, duh. Don suggested a drill bit - I somehow got this idea in
my headbone; I know where the gage pins are, *but not so sure about
the drill bits. Between then and now, I think I've remembered where
the drill bits are, but I'd have to actually go and _get_ a nail! ;-)

I'd bend the wire around a #6 screw and then open and round the loop
with a tapered punch. The problem with a hardened pin or even a drill
bit is that the amount of force you have to apply to it sideways to
deform the wire can snap it.

That's pretty much what I was wondering about, but in my defense, my
plan was to bend it into a tight U shape (preferably a V, depending on
how sharp a bend I can get) by hand, not use the pin for that part of
the bending, then just loop the U over the pin (which is now a drill
bit) and squeeze it closed on the other side, letting the pin (or bit)
hold it to the circular shape.

Thanks!
Rich

On Jan 23, 4:57*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jan 22, 11:33 pm, Rich Grise wrote:
...
The reason I'm doing this is because I'm assembling another one of
those "HDTV" 4-bay bowtie antennas, ...
Thanks!
Rich

Why not use brass or aluminum wire? In my experience they are easier
to recondition when the contacts age and oxidize. The copper on
welding wire is very thin and doesn't last long.

I don't trust aluminum at all to make a reliable electical contact - I
wish it did, because there are some beautiful 3/16 aluminum rods here
that might be pure aluminum - they're really easy to bend to shape, but
if you try to unbend it, it breaks. But electricity-wise, we're talking
microvolts of signal here. and I just lifted the wilding rod from the
company's stock of bulk rods, so it was "free." =:-O (yes, stolen, but
they don't like inventory it - they don't even keep track of what they
use on a job - they just order more when it gets low.)

And I don't know where I'd get brass wire, or what I'd have to spend on
it. I can get copper household wiring at the Home Depot practically next-
door, but again, I'd have to shell out my hard-earned pennies. I _did_
buy enough #14 copper to do the transmission lines with, so it'd be the
copper-plated steel element and a loop of copper under each screw head.

Thanks!
Rich

TV antennas have been made of aluminum for over half a century. I
bought mine around 1985 and have kept it working by replacing rusted-
out steel rivets with stainless screws.

Welding stores have brass rod for brazing, and aluminum and stainless
for TIG. I bought a few pieces of every size, also an assortment of
music wire from a model airplane store.

jsw

Hi Rich,
Rich Grise Inscribed thus:

I don't trust aluminum at all to make a reliable electical contact

Nothing wrong with aluminum ! But I do agree that where you have to
make electrically sound connections to it, it can be difficult to
prevent corrosion due to the dissimilar metals. This is one reason you
see a lot of stainless steel hardware used. At one time I used to buy
stainless steel 4BA threaded terminal posts for use on antenna
connections.

And I don't know where I'd get brass wire, or what I'd have to spend
on it.

Brass wire is not good stuff to use. Most of it is too brittle without
heat treatment and even then can suddenly go hard when machining it.

Thanks!
Rich

Why not just slide crimp eyelets onto the rods, bend to shape and
crimp !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Baron wrote:
Hi Rich,

I don't trust aluminum at all to make a reliable electical contact

Nothing wrong with aluminum ! But I do agree that where you have to
make electrically sound connections to it, it can be difficult to
prevent corrosion due to the dissimilar metals. This is one reason you
see a lot of stainless steel hardware used. At one time I used to buy
stainless steel 4BA threaded terminal posts for use on antenna
connections.

And I don't know where I'd get brass wire, or what I'd have to spend
on it.

Brass wire is not good stuff to use. Most of it is too brittle without
heat treatment and even then can suddenly go hard when machining it.

Why not just slide crimp eyelets onto the rods, bend to shape and
crimp !

Hmm. That's definitely an idea worth consideration! See, I'm teachable. :-)

It simply never occurred to me, but it would make the construction of
the whole contraption a breeze - next time I'm out and feeling like going
to HD or the auto parts, I'll look into it. Lessee - I'd need four at
each junction of two ends of an element and two pieces of transmission
line, so that's four per junction times eight junctions plus connecting
to the balun - I'll look for a box of 50.

Thanks! You've just made my task considerably easier!!

Cheers!
Rich

John R. Carroll wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

talking microvolts of signal here. and I just lifted the wilding rod

WTF is "wilding rod" Rich?

A typo, that I neglected to proofread. Sorry.

I thought you were the local speeel and garamer polize in these parts.....

Yeah, I hereby sentence myself to forty lashes with a wet, but warm, noodle
for my negligence. I'm not gonna punish myself for being a pedant, merely
commit to acknowledging my own mistakes and proofread better. :-)

Anyway, aluminum rod is zero condition material so it age hardens a bit
but cycle hardens in a heart beat.

Thanks for this - I was only going by empirical experience, and I was only
guessing at the composition; there are probably some alloying metals in
there so that it's compatible with whatever alloy of aluminum you're doing.
Or maybe pure covers a broader range. Anybody feel like bothering to
fill me in on that?

BTW, I bought some lugs (crimp terminals) today, and while contemplating
getting started, I realized I should have bought some 12-10s, so I could
put the two "ears" of each element into one terminal, rather than use two
terminals for one element. (#14 and .062 the same within a tolerable
tolerance. :-)

Thanks!
Rich

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 05:43:43 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

John R. Carroll wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

talking microvolts of signal here. and I just lifted the wilding rod

WTF is "wilding rod" Rich?

A typo, that I neglected to proofread. Sorry.

Not a typo, a Freudian slip. I thought I'd heard of "wilding" before.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wilding
So you lifted the club and did what (who?) with it?


--
"I probably became a libertarian through exposure to tough-minded
professors" James Buchanan, Armen Alchian, Milton Friedman "who
encouraged me to think with my brain instead of my heart. I
learned that you have to evaluate the effects of public policy
as opposed to intentions."
-- Walter E. Williams

Rich Grise Inscribed thus:

BTW, I bought some lugs (crimp terminals) today, and while
contemplating getting started, I realized I should have bought some
12-10s, so I could put the two "ears" of each element into one
terminal, rather than use two terminals for one element. (#14 and .062
the same within a tolerable tolerance. :-)

Thanks!
Rich

Ooops ! :-) Running away to hide...

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On 2011-01-23, Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:33:38 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Is it safe to use a gage pin as a mandrel to do something like this?

http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...ire-on-pin.png

[ ... ]

But in the shop, they have a set of gage pins. Are gage pins hard
enough that I could use one as a mandrel to bend the copper-coated
steel wire around it without marring the gage pin? There's only
one rule here about my using the shop tools - I break it, I buy it.

In this case, I think that it would be a "I break it, I buy a
new set of gauge pins".

I would *not* use a gauge pin for a task of this sort. Find
something cheaper to use.

[ ... ]

So, is it OK? About the gage pin, I mean.

No! Certainly not with *my* gauge pins. They are for
measuring, not to be used as anvils.

That'd a little like using a micrometer as a C-clamp. Use the shank
of a 5/32" drill as a mandrel.

Given that the shanks of drills are also noticeably softer than
the flute area (different metal). You can tell this because if you
don't tighten the chuck enough and it slips, you will find the shank to
have been gouged.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2011-01-23, Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:33:38 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Is it safe to use a gage pin as a mandrel to do something like this?

Never mind. As soon as Baron said "crimp terminals," I abandoned the
whole Idea; I'm now crimping ring terminals on my elements and xmission
line - I even traded in some screws at Home Depot - I'd bought #8 x 1"
screws, to accommodate .125 of wire under the heads - with lugs it'll
be less than that; so I had two 4-bags of screws. I went to Home Depot,
and there were like 9 people in the "return" line, so I walked over to
the self-checkout where some kid was just sort of hanging around to help
out whoever needed it. I asked, "I really only need to exchange these;
do you think if I just went and got the other ones, and came through the
line, they'd just let me trade straight up? The kid said, "I don't know
why not. So I went up and got two 4-bags of 3/4" screws, and was walking
back to the checkout with the 1" screws, their receipt, and the 3/4"
screws. Suddenly I kinda fetched up - the receipt entry is "PLSTCBAGS"
or something; I took the 1" screws back, put them in their bin, and
just left the store with the new screws and the receipt for 2 "PLSTCBAGS."

Cheers!
Rich

On Jan 23, 2:57*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jan 22, 11:33 pm, Rich Grise wrote:
...
The reason I'm doing this is because I'm assembling another one of
those "HDTV" 4-bay bowtie antennas, ...
Thanks!
Rich

Why not use brass or aluminum wire? In my experience they are easier
to recondition when the contacts age and oxidize. The copper on
welding wire is very thin and doesn't last long.

I don't trust aluminum at all to make a reliable electical contact - I
wish it did, because there are some beautiful 3/16 aluminum rods here
that might be pure aluminum - they're really easy to bend to shape, but
if you try to unbend it, it breaks. But electricity-wise, we're talking
microvolts of signal here. and I just lifted the wilding rod from the
company's stock of bulk rods, so it was "free." =:-O (yes, stolen, but
they don't like inventory it - they don't even keep track of what they
use on a job - they just order more when it gets low.)

And I don't know where I'd get brass wire, or what I'd have to spend on
it. I can get copper household wiring at the Home Depot practically next-
door, but again, I'd have to shell out my hard-earned pennies. I _did_
buy enough #14 copper to do the transmission lines with, so it'd be the
copper-plated steel element and a loop of copper under each screw head.

Thanks!
Rich

I'd just use the old standby, bronze brazing rod from the welding
supply. I bought a bunch of different sizes way before metals went
up. Can be had up to 1/4" dia. around here. Don't get too many of
those per pound, though. It's drawn stuff, so very stiff, to bend it
tight like you want you'd probably have to do a quick anneal with a
propane torch. I was using it to make rings and hardware for leather
goods, with the right silver braze and a scarf joint you can get a
joint that's almost invisible. In fractional sizes at the local
welding supply.

Stan