I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the tool
at the time--except to note that both striking ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys radiating
out from the harder core could form the material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over time
for either a historical exemplar, available modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

An immediate and unexpected stimulus to this post was
a provocative article on the discovery of self-sharpening
teeth in sea urchins, the text of which appeared in
"Science Daily" seen at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1222162404.htm


The urchin teeth differ from my naive preconception in
that the hard hard layers in the structure all of the same
durability among which are interspersed eroding soft layers.

This idea and its reality is elegant for simplicity.
Because the leading striking edge of a penetrating implement
wears first and the most during use, it is now clear how this
would result in a taper both in a pick and urchin tooth.

If anyone can either generally corroborate and specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any current
manufacturers whom might provide more information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Advance thanks to all for any direction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

On Jan 5, 5:30*pm, "Edward Hennessey"
wrote:
I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the tool
at the time--except to note that both striking ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys radiating
out from the harder core could form the material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over time
for either a historical exemplar, available modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

An immediate and unexpected stimulus to this post was
a provocative article on the discovery of self-sharpening
teeth in sea urchins, the text of which appeared in
"Science Daily" seen at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1222162404.htm

The urchin teeth differ from my naive preconception in
that the hard hard layers in the structure all of the same
durability among which are interspersed eroding soft layers.

This idea and its reality is elegant for simplicity.
Because the leading striking edge of a penetrating implement
wears first and the most during use, it is now clear how this
would result in a taper both in a pick and urchin tooth.

If anyone can either generally corroborate and specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any current
manufacturers whom might provide more information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Advance thanks to all for any direction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

Looking much closer to home, rodent incisors are also self-sharpening:
http://www.sciforums.com/encyclopedia/Tooth_development

I think self-sharpening as you describe costs service life relative to
a tool with hard steel throughout the point, which is easily sharpened
by grinding. If you have a grinder.

When old yard tools wear down I build up the edge with welding rod.
7018 has held a good edge on an axe that my uncle used on rock, for
instance.

jsw

On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:30:14 -0800, the renowned "Edward Hennessey"
wrote:


I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the tool
at the time--except to note that both striking ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys radiating
out from the harder core could form the material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over time
for either a historical exemplar, available modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

Did you have a look at US 982832 (1909) yet?



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:30:14 -0800, the renowned "Edward Hennessey"
wrote:


I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the tool
at the time--except to note that both striking ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys radiating
out from the harder core could form the material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over time
for either a historical exemplar, available modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

Did you have a look at US 982832 (1909) yet?



Best regards,
Sphero Pefhany

SP:

Thank you for the interesting reference which was consulted.
My apprehension about the durability of the design may have
been shared with a public that may come to a more determined
opinion by trial.

The pick I saw had, like my poor standard version, a one piece
head which disposes the belief that its superiority was a feat
of integrated metallurgy. A mining history list has the question on
the table, so far with slim result apart from the remark of a
self-sharpening, serrated knife that has seen long domestic
service.

In addendum to my initial offering, I add that my friend purchased
the tool new about two thirds of the way into the last century at
some bygone hardware store now replaced by boarded windows
in what may, in all likelihood, be a scarecrow town. So, pursuit of
origin
along that avenue doesn't promise.

Without others reporting a hit or light bulb going off, perchance a
search
for a manufacturer's association will be my next turn.

I appreciate your response.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

"jeff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:30:14 -0800, "Edward Hennessey"
wrote:


I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the tool
at the time--except to note that both striking ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys radiating
out from the harder core could form the material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over time
for either a historical exemplar, available modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

An immediate and unexpected stimulus to this post was
a provocative article on the discovery of self-sharpening
teeth in sea urchins, the text of which appeared in
"Science Daily" seen at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1222162404.htm


The urchin teeth differ from my naive preconception in
that the hard hard layers in the structure all of the same
durability among which are interspersed eroding soft layers.

This idea and its reality is elegant for simplicity.
Because the leading striking edge of a penetrating implement
wears first and the most during use, it is now clear how this
would result in a taper both in a pick and urchin tooth.

If anyone can either generally corroborate and specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any current
manufacturers whom might provide more information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Advance thanks to all for any direction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

This may not be of any use to you but I do belong to a Mineral
Society
and in all the outings I've ever been on the hammer of choice and
the
one I also use is this unit (Estwing E3-22P 22-Ounce Rock Pick).
This thing stays fairly sharp considering that you are breaking
rocks
with it but It does seem to hold it point very well. Double
pointed
12 pound hammer swung all day would be a serious workout...

J:

The sledges we use for remote heavy work toll 16 and 20 pounds.
A day with them is a hump but there are fewer days on a project when
rock feels that kind of weight. Handle vibration and the resultant
trigger
finger pathology by transmitted vibration remains a menace we temper
by
sleeving the handles with shock-absorbing foam and tethering the
shafts to the wrist. Releasing the grip right before impact diminishes
physical
problems radically. After practice, you get good at it...and thankful.

We agree on Estwings being good tools. For smaller stuff, they are
superb.
Not recalling model designations, their crack hammers and the mason's
style heads earn a place in the trucks.

Thanks for the comment.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

In article ,
"Edward Hennessey" wrote:

I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
....
If anyone can either generally corroborate and specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any current
manufacturers whom might provide more information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Well, one speculative approach (which may not be anything like the tool
in question) would be to take the advice from hardfacing heavy equipment
bucket edges and apply it to a pick. That being, to hardface the side
that normally takes the most wear, but NOT to hardface the other side,
so that the edge will wear sharp (where an edge hardfaced on both sides
will wear blunt.) A high-shock hardfacing is called for - they exist. I
still regret not having my shovel handy when powder torch hardfacing was
being demonstrated, but for a pick regular arc-welding hardfacing rods
would probably work; You might want to build up the point with 7018 (or
8018, 12018) before hardfacing, so the point has some meat for the
hardfacing process, then grind it to sharp (fron the softer side) after
hardfacing. A powder torch would probably not require that step. I would
suspect that the outer face would be the better one to hardface on a
pick.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Jan 5, 3:30*pm, "Edward Hennessey"
wrote:
I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the tool
at the time--except to note that both striking ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys radiating
out from the harder core could form the material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over time
for either a historical exemplar, available modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

An immediate and unexpected stimulus to this post was
a provocative article on the discovery of self-sharpening
teeth in sea urchins, the text of which appeared in
"Science Daily" seen at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1222162404.htm

The urchin teeth differ from my naive preconception in
that the hard hard layers in the structure all of the same
durability among which are interspersed eroding soft layers.

This idea and its reality is elegant for simplicity.
Because the leading striking edge of a penetrating implement
wears first and the most during use, it is now clear how this
would result in a taper both in a pick and urchin tooth.

If anyone can either generally corroborate and specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any current
manufacturers whom might provide more information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Advance thanks to all for any direction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

Differential tempering would be the way it's done, probably would take
a LOT of experimenting to leave the center hard while softening the
surrounding metal. The tempering would have to be done so the heat is
just getting to the center when quenching occurs. Custom knife makers
do this a lot, in two dimensions but not three, leaves a hard edge and
a softer back for flexibility. As far as current manufacturers, there
are probably none out there that do it that way, would be very hard to
do on a production basis. Easier(and cheaper) to dump the lot into a
furnace at so many degrees for such and such a time, then out.
Probably the original was some small manufacturer's output that was
basically handmade. You might be able to find a blacksmith or
bladesmith with the knowledge to duplicate it these days.

Stan

"jeff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:30:14 -0800, "Edward
Hennessey"
wrote:


I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head.
Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the
tool
at the time--except to note that both striking
ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we
adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own
tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool
with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys
radiating
out from the harder core could form the material
for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over
time
for either a historical exemplar, available
modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such
self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

An immediate and unexpected stimulus to this
post was
a provocative article on the discovery of
self-sharpening
teeth in sea urchins, the text of which appeared
in
"Science Daily" seen at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1222162404.htm


The urchin teeth differ from my naive
preconception in
that the hard hard layers in the structure all
of the same
durability among which are interspersed eroding
soft layers.

This idea and its reality is elegant for
simplicity.
Because the leading striking edge of a
penetrating implement
wears first and the most during use, it is now
clear how this
would result in a taper both in a pick and
urchin tooth.

If anyone can either generally corroborate and
specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening
mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any
current
manufacturers whom might provide more
information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Advance thanks to all for any direction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

This may not be of any use to you but I do
belong to a Mineral Society
and in all the outings I've ever been on the
hammer of choice and the
one I also use is this unit (Estwing E3-22P
22-Ounce Rock Pick).
This thing stays fairly sharp considering that
you are breaking rocks
with it but It does seem to hold it point very
well. Double pointed
12 pound hammer swung all day would be a serious
workout...

I'll bet that the hard outer layer that stays
sharp has a high
percentage of manganese. It's work hardening and
likes to be hit.
Yes? But how would that be done, some kind of hot
bath? Perhaps
laid in a shallow pan of mysterious salts at red
heat?

"Ecnerwal" wrote in
message
...
In article ,
"Edward Hennessey" wrote:

I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
...
If anyone can either generally corroborate and specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any current
manufacturers whom might provide more information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Well, one speculative approach (which may not be anything like the
tool
in question) would be to take the advice from hardfacing heavy
equipment
bucket edges and apply it to a pick. That being, to hardface the
side
that normally takes the most wear, but NOT to hardface the other
side,
so that the edge will wear sharp (where an edge hardfaced on both
sides
will wear blunt.) A high-shock hardfacing is called for - they
exist. I
still regret not having my shovel handy when powder torch hardfacing
was
being demonstrated, but for a pick regular arc-welding hardfacing
rods
would probably work; You might want to build up the point with 7018
(or
8018, 12018) before hardfacing, so the point has some meat for the
hardfacing process, then grind it to sharp (fron the softer side)
after
hardfacing. A powder torch would probably not require that step. I
would
suspect that the outer face would be the better one to hardface on a
pick.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

L:

I have some Army pick-mattocks that we might be able to try this on.
When the
master of these things can be lured, maybe we can experiment.

Thank you.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

wrote in message
...
On Jan 5, 3:30 pm, "Edward Hennessey"
wrote:
I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the tool
at the time--except to note that both striking ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys radiating
out from the harder core could form the material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over time
for either a historical exemplar, available modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

An immediate and unexpected stimulus to this post was
a provocative article on the discovery of self-sharpening
teeth in sea urchins, the text of which appeared in
"Science Daily" seen at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1222162404.htm

The urchin teeth differ from my naive preconception in
that the hard hard layers in the structure all of the same
durability among which are interspersed eroding soft layers.

This idea and its reality is elegant for simplicity.
Because the leading striking edge of a penetrating implement
wears first and the most during use, it is now clear how this
would result in a taper both in a pick and urchin tooth.

If anyone can either generally corroborate and specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any current
manufacturers whom might provide more information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Advance thanks to all for any direction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

Differential tempering would be the way it's done, probably would take
a LOT of experimenting to leave the center hard while softening the
surrounding metal. The tempering would have to be done so the heat is
just getting to the center when quenching occurs. Custom knife makers
do this a lot, in two dimensions but not three, leaves a hard edge and
a softer back for flexibility. As far as current manufacturers, there
are probably none out there that do it that way, would be very hard to
do on a production basis. Easier(and cheaper) to dump the lot into a
furnace at so many degrees for such and such a time, then out.
Probably the original was some small manufacturer's output that was
basically handmade. You might be able to find a blacksmith or
bladesmith with the knowledge to duplicate it these days.

Stan:

You have the brass ring.

If the name of the manufacturer can be found, maybe the pick can.
That is step next.

My friend did confide that the tool had cost him what was then a small
fortune, which price would be required to fund the painstaking process
you clearly describe.

If my quest comes to capture, I'll report on the performance. Thank
you very much.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

"Phil Kangas" wrote in
message
...

"jeff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:30:14 -0800, "Edward
Hennessey"
wrote:


I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside
a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was
a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head.
Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the
tool
at the time--except to note that both striking
ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we
adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own
tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool
with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys
radiating
out from the harder core could form the
material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches
over time
for either a historical exemplar, available
modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such
self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

An immediate and unexpected stimulus to this
post was
a provocative article on the discovery of
self-sharpening
teeth in sea urchins, the text of which
appeared in
"Science Daily" seen at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1222162404.htm


The urchin teeth differ from my naive
preconception in
that the hard hard layers in the structure all
of the same
durability among which are interspersed eroding
soft layers.

This idea and its reality is elegant for
simplicity.
Because the leading striking edge of a
penetrating implement
wears first and the most during use, it is now
clear how this
would result in a taper both in a pick and
urchin tooth.

If anyone can either generally corroborate and
specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening
mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to
any current
manufacturers whom might provide more
information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Advance thanks to all for any direction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

This may not be of any use to you but I do
belong to a Mineral Society
and in all the outings I've ever been on the
hammer of choice and the
one I also use is this unit (Estwing E3-22P
22-Ounce Rock Pick).
This thing stays fairly sharp considering that
you are breaking rocks
with it but It does seem to hold it point very
well. Double pointed
12 pound hammer swung all day would be a
serious workout...

I'll bet that the hard outer layer that stays
sharp has a high
percentage of manganese. It's work hardening and
likes to be hit.
Yes? But how would that be done, some kind of
hot bath? Perhaps
laid in a shallow pan of mysterious salts at red
heat?


These hammers are most likely a manganese alloy.
phil

Here's a link to manganese steels:
http://www.amsco.us/steel.asp

And here's a quote from that page:

No better casting alloy has ever been developed
for high impact service. Cast manganese steel has
unique properties that cannot be achieved with
rolled manganese steel or by low alloys in cast or
wrought form. In fact, it has been said that
modern scrap shredders could not exist today were
it not for cast manganese steel.

As an AMSCO manganese steel casting goes into
service, it is extremely tough throughout, with
very high impact and elongation properties.
However, a new manganese steel casting is not
hard – the surface of a new heat treated casting
is about 200 Brinell hardness.

Once a manganese steel casting goes into service
and typically undergoes repeated impact, it cold
works or work hardens. The work hardened areas of
manganese steel castings can reach hardnesses as
high as 600 Brinell, depending on the amount of
impact. This work hardening process is
self-renewing as long as high impact service
continues.

Another unique advantage of AMSCO manganese steel
castings is that while high impact regions undergo
work hardening, the interior of the casting
retains its low hardness and high ductility.
Thus, the high hardness work hardened surface of
the casting is fully supported by the ductile
interior of the casting. This provides the
necessary toughness to absorb impact without
failure.

"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
...

"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
...

"jeff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:30:14 -0800, "Edward Hennessey"
wrote:


I once had the pleasure of quarrying alongside a
delightful gentleman wielding what he said was a
self-sharpening pick with a 12 pound head. Though
I did not investigate the particulars of the tool
at the time--except to note that both striking ends
remained exceptionally keen in extended use and
necessarily wore protective covers when we adjourned
for the night--dulling experience with my own tools
gave later pause to ruminate on its makeup.

My over-thinking speculation was that a tool with
progressively softer layers of steel alloys radiating
out from the harder core could form the material for
such an implement. But my Internet searches over time
for either a historical exemplar, available modern
pick or other excavating hand tool of such self-sharpening
nature proved unavailing.

An immediate and unexpected stimulus to this post was
a provocative article on the discovery of self-sharpening
teeth in sea urchins, the text of which appeared in
"Science Daily" seen at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1222162404.htm


The urchin teeth differ from my naive preconception in
that the hard hard layers in the structure all of the same
durability among which are interspersed eroding soft layers.

This idea and its reality is elegant for simplicity.
Because the leading striking edge of a penetrating implement
wears first and the most during use, it is now clear how this
would result in a taper both in a pick and urchin tooth.

If anyone can either generally corroborate and specifically
describe occurrences of such self-sharpening mining tools (a
hefty pick foremost) or give me a pointer to any current
manufacturers whom might provide more information or the
implements themselves, I would be grateful.

Advance thanks to all for any direction.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

This may not be of any use to you but I do belong to a Mineral
Society
and in all the outings I've ever been on the hammer of choice and
the
one I also use is this unit (Estwing E3-22P 22-Ounce Rock Pick).
This thing stays fairly sharp considering that you are breaking
rocks
with it but It does seem to hold it point very well. Double
pointed
12 pound hammer swung all day would be a serious workout...

I'll bet that the hard outer layer that stays sharp has a high
percentage of manganese. It's work hardening and likes to be hit.
Yes? But how would that be done, some kind of hot bath? Perhaps
laid in a shallow pan of mysterious salts at red heat?


These hammers are most likely a manganese alloy. phil

Here's a link to manganese steels:
http://www.amsco.us/steel.asp

And here's a quote from that page:

No better casting alloy has ever been developed for high impact
service. Cast manganese steel has unique properties that cannot be
achieved with rolled manganese steel or by low alloys in cast or
wrought form. In fact, it has been said that modern scrap shredders
could not exist today were it not for cast manganese steel.

As an AMSCO manganese steel casting goes into service, it is
extremely tough throughout, with very high impact and elongation
properties. However, a new manganese steel casting is not hard - the
surface of a new heat treated casting is about 200 Brinell hardness.

Once a manganese steel casting goes into service and typically
undergoes repeated impact, it cold works or work hardens. The work
hardened areas of manganese steel castings can reach hardnesses as
high as 600 Brinell, depending on the amount of impact. This work
hardening process is self-renewing as long as high impact service
continues.

Another unique advantage of AMSCO manganese steel castings is that
while high impact regions undergo work hardening, the interior of
the casting retains its low hardness and high ductility. Thus, the
high hardness work hardened surface of the casting is fully
supported by the ductile interior of the casting. This provides the
necessary toughness to absorb impact without failure.


PK:

Thank you for your worthwhile contribution to my education.
Now I have to ponder all this and push further.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey