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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Mercury vs. aluminum
I'm going to try this url to see if it works.
This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 |
#2
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Mercury vs. aluminum
Phil Kangas wrote:
I'm going to try this url to see if it works. This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 aluminum is pretty reactive and forms an oxide coating when it touches air. The mercury forms a liquid alloy or amalgam with the aluminum that disrupts the formation of an oxide layer that self passivates or protects the aluminum. I've performed tests with aluminum and mercury and the results are quite impressive- just like in the video. There's other interesting alamgams too. It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. The really thin and almost perfect oxide layer that can be formed on aluminum is also the basis for aluminum electrolytic capacitors. |
#3
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Mercury vs. aluminum
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:12:54 -0500, "Phil Kangas"
wrote: I'm going to try this url to see if it works. This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 And now you know why it is illegal to bring mercury filled thermometers onto commercial aircraft flights. Dave |
#5
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Mercury vs. aluminum
"Pete Keillor" wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 06:00:10 -0500, lid wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:12:54 -0500, "Phil Kangas" wrote: I'm going to try this url to see if it works. This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 And now you know why it is illegal to bring mercury filled thermometers onto commercial aircraft flights. Dave Just a guess. If mercury alloys with or dissolves aluminum, then the dissolved aluminum would react rapidly with oxygen to aluminum oxide, and being dissolved be unable to form the tough aluminum oxide coating that normally stops this reaction. So the aluminum is depleted in solution, more dissoves, and so on. Pete Keillor So the mercury has a greater affinity for oxygen than the aluminum? What is the grey matter produced from the reaction? Is it a hazardous substance? phil k. |
#6
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Mercury vs. aluminum
On Dec 21, 4:00*am, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:12:54 -0500, "Phil Kangas" wrote: I'm going to try this url to see if it works. This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 And now you know why it is illegal to bring mercury filled thermometers onto commercial aircraft flights. Dave We had a mercury spill team at the shipyard to clean up when somebody busted a thermostat or flourescent tube. Makes brass and copper brittle as well as reacting with aluminum, not too good on a submerged sub where they've got a bunch of all those metals. Stan |
#7
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Mercury vs. aluminum
On Dec 21, 11:17*am, "Phil Kangas" wrote:
"Pete Keillor" wrote in messagenews:6181h6dc1kckpq4c4ed9g7ph26fuk3okgo@4ax .com... On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 06:00:10 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:12:54 -0500, "Phil Kangas" wrote: I'm going to try this url to see if it works. This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 And now you know why it is illegal to bring mercury filled thermometers onto commercial aircraft flights. Dave Just a guess. *If mercury alloys with or dissolves aluminum, then the dissolved aluminum would react rapidly with oxygen to aluminum oxide, and being dissolved be unable to form the tough aluminum oxide coating that normally stops this reaction. *So the aluminum is depleted in solution, more dissoves, and so on. Pete Keillor So the mercury has a greater affinity for oxygen than the aluminum? What is the grey matter produced from the reaction? Is it a hazardous substance? phil k.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - At a guess, probably aluminum oxide mixed with metallic mercury and maybe some oxides of mercury. You can get a scum on metallic mercury just sitting in a bottle from oxidation, it's dark grey. Mercury does similar things with sodium and potassium, the amalgams have some uses in chemical synthesis reactions. Stan |
#8
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Mercury vs. aluminum
On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:17:11 -0500, "Phil Kangas"
wrote: "Pete Keillor" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 06:00:10 -0500, lid wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:12:54 -0500, "Phil Kangas" wrote: I'm going to try this url to see if it works. This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 And now you know why it is illegal to bring mercury filled thermometers onto commercial aircraft flights. Dave Just a guess. If mercury alloys with or dissolves aluminum, then the dissolved aluminum would react rapidly with oxygen to aluminum oxide, and being dissolved be unable to form the tough aluminum oxide coating that normally stops this reaction. So the aluminum is depleted in solution, more dissoves, and so on. Pete Keillor So the mercury has a greater affinity for oxygen than the aluminum? What is the grey matter produced from the reaction? Is it a hazardous substance? phil k. No, I don't think the mercury is oxidizing. It's just providing a source of aluminum to oxidize, and the aluminum can't form a stable oxide coating, which on bare aluminum happens in seconds. The only role of the mercury is to form a semiliquid alloy with the aluminum, and keep doing that as aluminum in the alloy reacts with oxygen. If I'm correct, the grey stuff would just be aluminum oxide, probably contaminated with mercury. The mercury would make it hazardous. Aluminum oxide by itself is a very good insulator to very high temperatures, also very good against corrosion. Which is why when it forms directly on aluminum metal it protects the metal quite well. It just can't form a tightly bonded layer to aluminum when forming on the mercury alloy. In 1980 I worked on an experimental cell to electolytically produce magnesium and chlorine gas from a molten salt bath at 700 C. Steel lasted days at best in there. The 99.5% alumina (aluminum oxide) brick the cell was constructed from was as good at shutdown as when the thing was constructed. There were about 200,000 bricks in that cell. It wasn't cheap. Pete Keillor |
#9
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Mercury vs. aluminum
Cydrome Leader wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. -- Dan H. northshore MA. |
#10
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Mercury vs. aluminum
On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 10:37:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Dec 21, 11:17*am, "Phil Kangas" wrote: "Pete Keillor" wrote in messagenews:6181h6dc1kckpq4c4ed9g7ph26fuk3okgo@4ax .com... On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 06:00:10 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:12:54 -0500, "Phil Kangas" wrote: I'm going to try this url to see if it works. This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 And now you know why it is illegal to bring mercury filled thermometers onto commercial aircraft flights. Dave Just a guess. *If mercury alloys with or dissolves aluminum, then the dissolved aluminum would react rapidly with oxygen to aluminum oxide, and being dissolved be unable to form the tough aluminum oxide coating that normally stops this reaction. *So the aluminum is depleted in solution, more dissoves, and so on. Pete Keillor So the mercury has a greater affinity for oxygen than the aluminum? What is the grey matter produced from the reaction? Is it a hazardous substance? phil k.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - At a guess, probably aluminum oxide mixed with metallic mercury and maybe some oxides of mercury. You can get a scum on metallic mercury just sitting in a bottle from oxidation, it's dark grey. The wiki said it attacked only the elemental aluminum, not the oxide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_amalgam -- If the only prayer you ever say in your whole life is "thank you," that would suffice. -- Meister Eckhart |
#11
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Mercury vs. aluminum
"Pete Keillor" wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:17:11 -0500, "Phil Kangas" wrote: "Pete Keillor" wrote in message . .. On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 06:00:10 -0500, lid wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:12:54 -0500, "Phil Kangas" wrote: I'm going to try this url to see if it works. This video is of mercury attacking aluminum. Can you explain the reaction? phil k. http://tinyurl.com/286pl63 And now you know why it is illegal to bring mercury filled thermometers onto commercial aircraft flights. Dave Just a guess. If mercury alloys with or dissolves aluminum, then the dissolved aluminum would react rapidly with oxygen to aluminum oxide, and being dissolved be unable to form the tough aluminum oxide coating that normally stops this reaction. So the aluminum is depleted in solution, more dissoves, and so on. Pete Keillor So the mercury has a greater affinity for oxygen than the aluminum? What is the grey matter produced from the reaction? Is it a hazardous substance? phil k. No, I don't think the mercury is oxidizing. It's just providing a source of aluminum to oxidize, and the aluminum can't form a stable oxide coating, which on bare aluminum happens in seconds. The only role of the mercury is to form a semiliquid alloy with the aluminum, and keep doing that as aluminum in the alloy reacts with oxygen. If I'm correct, the grey stuff would just be aluminum oxide, probably contaminated with mercury. The mercury would make it hazardous. Aluminum oxide by itself is a very good insulator to very high temperatures, also very good against corrosion. Which is why when it forms directly on aluminum metal it protects the metal quite well. It just can't form a tightly bonded layer to aluminum when forming on the mercury alloy. In 1980 I worked on an experimental cell to electolytically produce magnesium and chlorine gas from a molten salt bath at 700 C. Steel lasted days at best in there. The 99.5% alumina (aluminum oxide) brick the cell was constructed from was as good at shutdown as when the thing was constructed. There were about 200,000 bricks in that cell. It wasn't cheap. Pete Keillor For some crazy reason I can't stop thinking about this experiment. The mercury appears to head for the saw cut end first and reacts with it pretty fast. But then it stops producing that gray stuff on the cut end and goes to work on the stock oxide layer. Then it is bubbling at the entry line which leads me to think there must be gas that is being released by the reaction. Oxygen? The oxide layer on the cut end would not be as thick as the stock layer. And the dark gray color? WTF Was the aluminum surface scratched after the mercury was put on giving it a path to go to work? phil k. |
#12
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Mercury vs. aluminum
"dan" wrote in message ... Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. -- Dan H. northshore MA. What you are getting delivered is aluminium with a nice thin layer of oxide on the outside. |
#13
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Mercury vs. aluminum
"dan" wrote in message ...
Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. -- Dan H. northshore MA. Aluminum is as reactive as sodium. From my college chem days. The thing that stops if from the fast oxidation / explosive oxidation with water like sodium is the quickly formed oxide coating. Which protects the aluminum. |
#14
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Mercury vs. aluminum
On 2010-12-22, Califbill wrote:
"dan" wrote in message ... Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. Dan, I think that his point was that if not for the oxide layer, aluminum would also be one of those metals that react violently with air and water. With the oxide layer, it is safe enough to transport in a stake side truck. i |
#15
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Mercury vs. aluminum
Ignoramus1592 wrote:
On 2010-12-22, Califbill wrote: "dan" wrote in message ... Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. Dan, I think that his point was that if not for the oxide layer, aluminum would also be one of those metals that react violently with air and water. With the oxide layer, it is safe enough to transport in a stake side truck. i That oxide layer forms is less than a minute on fresh surfaces! -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
#16
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Mercury vs. aluminum
Sodium and Magnesium . Magnesium touches Aluminum and you get trouble.
We used to have a machine - like an electronic microscope - but for semiconductor - repairing metal lines in IC's used Aluminum and the Magnesium to drill vias between layers. Then fill with Al and see if the part works. A really cool machine being able to activate lines and actually measure voltages. Anyway - consumable part. Order another - and all of a sudden, we can't ship by air. We had to jump through hoops and have triple layers of protection. The fear was it would melt through the plane! Until that time, we had book cases containing 3 and protection hand carried at great expense. Martin On 12/21/2010 4:43 PM, dan wrote: Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. |
#17
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Mercury vs. aluminum
Ignoramus1592 wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 21:55:43 -0600: On 2010-12-22, Califbill wrote: "dan" wrote in message ... Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. Dan, I think that his point was that if not for the oxide layer, aluminum would also be one of those metals that react violently with air and water. With the oxide layer, it is safe enough to transport in a stake side truck. OK. So it's not "normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it" like Califbill said? -- Dan H. northshore MA. |
#18
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Mercury vs. aluminum
"dan" wrote in message ...
Ignoramus1592 wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 21:55:43 -0600: On 2010-12-22, Califbill wrote: "dan" wrote in message ... Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. Dan, I think that his point was that if not for the oxide layer, aluminum would also be one of those metals that react violently with air and water. With the oxide layer, it is safe enough to transport in a stake side truck. OK. So it's not "normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it" like Califbill said? -- Dan H. northshore MA. Wasn't me that said it ships in oil. I have an aluminum river jetboat, and it gets towed on a tandem axle aluminum trailer with oil only in the motor and the bearings. I said aluminum is as reactive as sodium, except it quickly builds an oxide layer which stops any reaction. Get an aluminum fire and squirt water on it and watch the violent reaction. |
#19
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Mercury vs. aluminum
Califbill wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Wed, 22 Dec 2010 20:29:33 -0800: "dan" wrote in message ... Ignoramus1592 wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 21:55:43 -0600: On 2010-12-22, Califbill wrote: "dan" wrote in message ... Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:29:00 +0000 (UTC): It's really more accurate to watch the video and realize aluminum is one of those crazy metals that normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it, and that the truly amazing part is that the thin oxide layer it forms really seals the rest of the metal from basically rusting away, or catching on fire or other stuff like that. We get shipments of aluminum at work all the time. Just open in a stake side truck. I think your confusing aluminum with sodium. Dan, I think that his point was that if not for the oxide layer, aluminum would also be one of those metals that react violently with air and water. With the oxide layer, it is safe enough to transport in a stake side truck. OK. So it's not "normally ships in a tank of kerosene or oil to keep air and water away from it" like Califbill said? Wasn't me that said it ships in oil. Sorry. I guess I got confused by your newsreaders way of quoting. But someone said that aluminum normally ships in oil. That's BS. That's all I'm saying. -- Dan H. northshore MA. |
#20
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Mercury vs. aluminum
Here's the answer I received from a retired
material science guy. phil k. Hi Phil, A few comments to get you started. You probably have a Chemistry textbook to consult to add some details. Most metals are soluble in mercury and the alloys they form are call amalgams. Dentists use amalgam filling materials, which are alloys usually containing silver, tin and copper that have been amalgamated with mercury. Aluminum also forms an amalgam, that is an alloy formed on contact which is aluminum dissolved in mercury. As you know, aluminum readily forms a thin oxide layer at surfaces in air, which is then very protective against many environments including air. In this case, there was likely a scratch or other defect in the oxide layer that allowed contact between the mercury and aluminum leading to amalgamation. Amalgamation of this type has often been cited as possible means of aircraft sabotage during WW II. Beyond formation of the mercury-aluminum alloy in the reaction shown in the video, one could surmise that because aluminum is a reactive element, the apparent gas evolution could result if there was some water present that would permit the aluminum in the amalgam to oxidize and hydrogen gas to form as part of the reaction to form aluminum hydroxide or aluminum oxide. Hope this helps. Merry Christmas, Don |
#21
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Mercury vs. aluminum
On 2010-12-23, Phil Kangas wrote:
Here's the answer I received from a retired material science guy. phil k. Hi Phil, A few comments to get you started. You probably have a Chemistry textbook to consult to add some details. Most metals are soluble in mercury and the alloys they form are call amalgams. Dentists use amalgam filling materials, which are alloys usually containing silver, tin and copper that have been amalgamated with mercury. Aluminum also forms an amalgam, that is an alloy formed on contact which is aluminum dissolved in mercury. As you know, aluminum readily forms a thin oxide layer at surfaces in air, which is then very protective against many environments including air. In this case, there was likely a scratch or other defect in the oxide layer that allowed contact between the mercury and aluminum leading to amalgamation. Amalgamation of this type has often been cited as possible means of aircraft sabotage during WW II. Beyond formation of the mercury-aluminum alloy in the reaction shown in the video, one could surmise that because aluminum is a reactive element, the apparent gas evolution could result if there was some water present that would permit the aluminum in the amalgam to oxidize and hydrogen gas to form as part of the reaction to form aluminum hydroxide or aluminum oxide. Hope this helps. Merry Christmas, Don Also check this out : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_amalgam |
#22
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Mercury vs. aluminum
"Ignoramus30015" wrote in message ... On 2010-12-23, Phil Kangas wrote: Here's the answer I received from a retired material science guy. phil k. Hi Phil, A few comments to get you started. You probably have a Chemistry textbook to consult to add some details. Most metals are soluble in mercury and the alloys they form are call amalgams. Dentists use amalgam filling materials, which are alloys usually containing silver, tin and copper that have been amalgamated with mercury. Aluminum also forms an amalgam, that is an alloy formed on contact which is aluminum dissolved in mercury. As you know, aluminum readily forms a thin oxide layer at surfaces in air, which is then very protective against many environments including air. In this case, there was likely a scratch or other defect in the oxide layer that allowed contact between the mercury and aluminum leading to amalgamation. Amalgamation of this type has often been cited as possible means of aircraft sabotage during WW II. Beyond formation of the mercury-aluminum alloy in the reaction shown in the video, one could surmise that because aluminum is a reactive element, the apparent gas evolution could result if there was some water present that would permit the aluminum in the amalgam to oxidize and hydrogen gas to form as part of the reaction to form aluminum hydroxide or aluminum oxide. Hope this helps. Merry Christmas, Don Also check this out : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_amalgam And to think that there are people out there that consider metalworking boring...... ! Not around here though, eih? phil |
#23
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Mercury vs. aluminum
On 2010-12-24, Phil Kangas wrote:
"Ignoramus30015" wrote in message ... On 2010-12-23, Phil Kangas wrote: Here's the answer I received from a retired material science guy. phil k. Hi Phil, A few comments to get you started. You probably have a Chemistry textbook to consult to add some details. Most metals are soluble in mercury and the alloys they form are call amalgams. Dentists use amalgam filling materials, which are alloys usually containing silver, tin and copper that have been amalgamated with mercury. Aluminum also forms an amalgam, that is an alloy formed on contact which is aluminum dissolved in mercury. As you know, aluminum readily forms a thin oxide layer at surfaces in air, which is then very protective against many environments including air. In this case, there was likely a scratch or other defect in the oxide layer that allowed contact between the mercury and aluminum leading to amalgamation. Amalgamation of this type has often been cited as possible means of aircraft sabotage during WW II. Beyond formation of the mercury-aluminum alloy in the reaction shown in the video, one could surmise that because aluminum is a reactive element, the apparent gas evolution could result if there was some water present that would permit the aluminum in the amalgam to oxidize and hydrogen gas to form as part of the reaction to form aluminum hydroxide or aluminum oxide. Hope this helps. Merry Christmas, Don Also check this out : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_amalgam And to think that there are people out there that consider metalworking boring...... ! Not around here though, eih? phil That would NOT be me! |
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