Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Mass firings at Chipotle restaurants

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On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 21:26:08 -0700, Winston_Smith
wrote:

I see your point, but what IS a "Living Wage"?


Something that allows a family to live in at least minimal housing and
put nourishing food on the table and see a doctor at need. Preferably
the old model of one wage earner and one stay at home parent to raise
the kids.


If we cut out 75% of our gov't, we could do that. Let's all work on
that as a priority, OK? Cut gov't waste, cut gov't employees, cut
unwarranted alphabet agencies, quickly -finish- the war doing whatever
it takes with all our allies, and let's get on with it.


Should wages be subsidized
by the Gov. for jobs that require no skill and little training?


Absolutely not. The government should stop messing with industry.
They should stop paying corporate welfare. They should stop importing
cheap labor and looking the other way. They should get their tax
collecting hands out of the poor man's pocket along with all the rest
of our pockets. Less taxes means they have to cut back their size and
range of activities. Good.


Oorah!


We simply exported the productive jobs. We were told that was a good
thing because everyone would get a high end job as a rocket scientist
or brain surgeon. It's almost beside the point that education
standards went down the drain in the same time frame. We cannot all
be top of the craft inventors and designers. Someone has to make the
screwdrivers and hammers. Millions upon millions of Americans found
livable wages doing just that in factories across the country. They
had good lives, their employers made money, their stockholders got
dividends. That still happens but in other countries.


Let's push the RESET button on gov't, judicial, penal, legal,
insurance, and medical systems and go from there.


Then government limited, regulated, and taxed companies till they
squeaked. At the same time they gave them some attractive incentives
to move production off shore. GATT. NAFTA. They even conned the
unions into supporting that, because the unions were told they could
invest their pension funds in foreign companies and make a bundle.
Somehow they never noticed they wouldn't have any jobs to go to.

Should a
floor sweeper make the same as a plumber just so he can support a family?


Do you want your floors swept? If so, you will pay what it takes. If
that's more than you can afford, they will go unswept. The problem is
you can get someone cheaper because we all chip in to subsidize the
illegal. His kids education, his medical care, and welfare for the
guy he displaced. Take away the illegal and the American employer and
the American worker will find a wage to agree on. It will be enough
for him to live on or he won't take it and you will just have to offer
more to the next applicant.


True, it would help. Hell, there are so few illegals in the country
now, though. Not more than about 20 million. (No, I don't believe
the 12M figure at all.) I'd like the "foreigner born on American soil
becomes an American citizen" thing to die a quick death, too. Talk
about abuses...


That floor sweeper should make exactly what his services are worth in
a free and open economy. That means no artificial forces driving his
pay up or down. If his employer didn't have to double or triple his
salary in taxes, SS payments, medical insurance, massive paper work to
prove they bought him the right kind of broom and had it certified and
calibrated twice weekly, they could afford to pay him a wage he would
be able to live on.


You're probably right there. I can't afford to hire anyone because the
cost of worker's comp insurance(mandatory) for the two of us would be
more than I/we could make in a month.


In my youth and early adulthood people could
afford their own health care. There were several ways to deal with
the unusual. Then insurance along and it was just for the
extraordinary expense. Then it got to be for hangnails. Employers
found it cheaper to offer insurance and pensions than pay the wages
workers would have demanded without them. Of course that bloated the
medical industry and of course they didn't actually put money in their
pension funds. The model was eternal company growth and profits.
They could make up the shortages later with "pocket change". And most
people were fools enough to buy the theory.


Yeah, all those pensions up in smoke & mirrors/stocks & bonds...


If floor sweeping is a dying profession, like buggy whip manufacture,
his kids will go into some other line. But no, first the government
protects the obsolete jobs, subsidizes them, and once they can't keep
them viable even on life support, they dump him on perpetual welfare.


Damned sad.


Without the artificial lifelines, he would have found another line of
work long before his world went extinct. If he was at all capable, he
would have been constantly looking for a better job to improve his
income. He might have moved up from floor sweeper to screwdriver
packer if there still were such a job in America. And then on to
handle molding.


Now we're cookin'!


Maybe he just can't afford a family and should plan accordingly.


Blame religion and tradition for this. There were several good
reasons for huge families until 50(ish) years ago. In today's world
it would be far better to go for two people having two kids as
replacements. Even better would be a gradual - and voluntary -
decrease in population. That doesn't suit the ever expanding
government model so we get all sorts of pressures and incentives to
keep on breeding like rabbits.


Sad, isn't it? The good news is that the number of births per couple
(globally) is dropping and we should stabilize at about 9B. thud
http://www.wimp.com/seventhbillion/ Excellent/scary presentation.


Should
highly productive, skilled workers be penalized to support the sweeper's
family rather than supporting his own kids with premium education that he
could afford if his income wasn't being drained off in the name of "Social
Justice"? How is it that illegals support themselves AND are able to send
money out of the country with their "starvation third-world wage?


By living dozens to a house. Sharing expenses. Getting paid cash
with no taxes. Getting free education for his kids and medical care.
The American has to pay taxes for the other guys education and
medical.


Ayup, and too damned many politicians (plus all liberals) are OK with
that.


A lot of them are not families. Their family is back in their native
land. They have come here willing to live in squaller and work their
asses off, and get exploited so they can earn some money to send home.
What they make is a trivial amount based on American standard of
living but it's a fairly decent income by the standards of the country
where their families are. They put up with it for their families.
It's laudable what they sacrifice for their family. But in doing so,
they drive down the value of a job until an American can not afford to
live on it in America.


And some liberal politican says that Americans won't take those jobs.
With the number of unemployed in the USA today, I'd be willing to bet
that at least 90% of them would take any job available rather than go
hungry and cold, without food or shelter. I feel that it's a crime
that the unemployment branches of the states don't force people who
don't find exact work in their field to take a job, any job, after a
certain amount of time. Unemployment is a temporary/emergency funding
system, not a secondary annual income with no end, damnit.


What's a job worth? Whatever the employer has to pay to get the work
he needs done. He will happily pay a pittance if he can. Will he let
the halls get filthy in his office if he has to pay more? No, he will
find out the lowest wage an American citizen will take to do the job.


Or find an illegal, while he can still get away with it. I strongly
support making it illegal to hire illegals, and enforcing it TODAY.


I get a dozen or so job applicants each week. Almost in every instance,
they want proof that they applied for a job and look in horror when I ask if
they can start immediately and make excuses why they can't.


This is true too. We have honest people that can't compete in the
artificial financial world we have built and we have bums that have
been on the gravy train so long they expect it.


grumble


If there were jobs paying a minimally livable wage the former would
take them. That would leave just the bums and then we can safely cut
back welfare without the danger of pulling support out from people
that honestly need it.


That's only good for those who wish to work, and to make a living.
Plus, criminals (and other politicians) who siphon off funds prevent
this, and their numbers continue to grow.


I don't claim this is easy. I don't claim we can correct it quickly.
We have been 50 years exporting jobs and building a welfare culture.
It will take that long to undo it if we want to do it with some kind
of stability and justice. The choice is start the debate and start
the movement or sit back and make bets on how long before the
collapse.


Has anyone here read James Wesley Rawles' books, like _How to Survive
the End of the World as We Know It: Tactics, Techniques, and
Technologies for Uncertain Times_? Is it good? Necessary?


OK, folks -- let me have it.


clap, clap, clap Enough?

--
Small opportunities are often the beginning of great enterprises.
-- Demosthenes

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Larry Jaques wrote:

And some liberal politican says that Americans won't take those jobs.
With the number of unemployed in the USA today, I'd be willing to bet
that at least 90% of them would take any job available rather than go
hungry and cold, without food or shelter.


I'm in Southern California (Whittier). A couple of months ago, I saw
a white guy operating a leaf blower on a predominantly Mexican lawn crew.

I guess when times are this bad, swallowing one's pride can get the bills
paid.

Cheers!
Rich

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On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:25:33 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

And some liberal politican says that Americans won't take those jobs.
With the number of unemployed in the USA today, I'd be willing to bet
that at least 90% of them would take any job available rather than go
hungry and cold, without food or shelter.


I'm in Southern California (Whittier). A couple of months ago, I saw
a white guy operating a leaf blower on a predominantly Mexican lawn crew.

I guess when times are this bad, swallowing one's pride can get the bills
paid.


You betcha! "Screw pride, I'm gonna EAT tonight!"

P.S: 'Course, he could have been the business owner, too.

P.P.S: It's people with too much pride who deserve to be out of work,
as it's a very good lesson. Learn on, guys!

--
The art of life lies in a constant readjustment to our surroundings.
-- Okakura Kakuzo
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Default Mass firings at Chipotle restaurants

On 12/17/2010 10:25 AM, Rich Grise wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:

And some liberal politican says that Americans won't take those jobs.
With the number of unemployed in the USA today, I'd be willing to bet
that at least 90% of them would take any job available rather than go
hungry and cold, without food or shelter.


I'm in Southern California (Whittier). A couple of months ago, I saw
a white guy operating a leaf blower on a predominantly Mexican lawn crew.

I guess when times are this bad, swallowing one's pride can get the bills
paid.

Cheers!
Rich


as one who worked with predominantly Mexican crews (yes, they really
were from Mexico, not somewhere else, I asked), I would say that your
remark, whether intended that way or not, is just plain racist. A
person who wants to work will do so. Every single "Mexican work crew
member" I ever worked with was a hard working, honest individual who was
more than willing to put in a hard day's work for his money and to help
his fellow man. It is admirable that some "white guy" feels likewise.
This may have nothing at all to do with pride - it was a good experience
to work with those crews, it didn't further my formal education but it
certainly did give me a clear idea of the work ethic of those at the
bottom of our labor pool, and that ethic is far better than what I see
from many much higher up on the ladder.

We need to give people a way out of poverty, we do not need to sustain
them in poverty - unemployment insurance should be just that - insurance
provided to those with jobs to cover the gaps when one is unemployed.
An employee should be able to elect better insurance or only minimal
insurance and receive benefits accordingly unless fired for cause.
Welfare as we know it should end. Aid to those trying to get out should
be offered - for example, a student getting straight A's in difficult
courses should have a place to sleep and food to eat so he/she can
continue to study, a family whose children are earning D's and F's would
receive no aid at all.

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another anonymous poster wrote:
On 12/17/2010 10:25 AM, Rich Grise wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:

And some liberal politican says that Americans won't take those jobs.
With the number of unemployed in the USA today, I'd be willing to bet
that at least 90% of them would take any job available rather than go
hungry and cold, without food or shelter.


I'm in Southern California (Whittier). A couple of months ago, I saw
a white guy operating a leaf blower on a predominantly Mexican lawn crew.

I guess when times are this bad, swallowing one's pride can get the bills
paid.


as one who worked with predominantly Mexican crews (yes, they really
were from Mexico, not somewhere else, I asked), I would say that your
remark, whether intended that way or not, is just plain racist.


Well, I wasn't raised racist, but those hordes of illegal Mexicans are
doing their damnedest to change my mind about that.

Except for the ones who came here to actually _work_, which they do,
diligently - I actually hired a couple of day laborers once to help me
move a truckload of furniture to a 2nd floor storage thing - the ones
that **** me off are the criminals who sneak in illegally just to exploit
all the socialist freebies we dangle in front of their nose.

And, except for the actual wetbacks, they're the rudest people I've ever met
in the whole world.

But even the wetbacks should have to go through channels.

Here's an idea - set up a big classroom at the border, and if they can pass
an English competency test and the equivalent of a citizenship test, let
them in with open arms.

Heck, I'd even go for a day worker pass, especially if they had to have a
sponsor. Like, Home Depot could put up a kiosk where they'd check in, and
when you need day work, you'd go and pick one up _by going to the desk_,
where they'd be checked in and out, and you'd pay at the desk, they'd do
the taxes, and then pay the laborers. But the chances of seeing something
like that are remote.

But even though I'm a raving Libertarian, I do agree that criminals are
criminals.

Thanks,
Rich



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Default Mass firings at Chipotle restaurants

On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 21:41:54 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Has anyone here read James Wesley Rawles' books, like _How to Survive
the End of the World as We Know It: Tactics, Techniques, and
Technologies for Uncertain Times_? Is it good? Necessary?


While its not the Best Book on the subject...its pretty decent.


Top 10 Democrat Party Slogans

10. Bitterly clinging to aborton and taxes
9. We didnt destroy your freedoms, you can
visit them at the Smithstonian
8. If you want us to listen to your opinion, move to Europ
7. Someday none of this will be yours
6. We can't tax terrorism, so who cares?
5. Please don't vote us out!! None of us can hold a real job!
4. Why the Founding Fathers limited Government:
Racism!
3. Reducing America's carbon footprint, one job at a time.
2. America: We just cant wait to see how it ends!!
1. Making everything in this country free, except you.
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:25:33 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

And some liberal politican says that Americans won't take those jobs.
With the number of unemployed in the USA today, I'd be willing to bet
that at least 90% of them would take any job available rather than go
hungry and cold, without food or shelter.


I'm in Southern California (Whittier). A couple of months ago, I saw
a white guy operating a leaf blower on a predominantly Mexican lawn crew.

I guess when times are this bad, swallowing one's pride can get the bills
paid.

Cheers!
Rich


I was in Whittier today.

Gunner

Top 10 Democrat Party Slogans

10. Bitterly clinging to aborton and taxes
9. We didnt destroy your freedoms, you can
visit them at the Smithstonian
8. If you want us to listen to your opinion, move to Europ
7. Someday none of this will be yours
6. We can't tax terrorism, so who cares?
5. Please don't vote us out!! None of us can hold a real job!
4. Why the Founding Fathers limited Government:
Racism!
3. Reducing America's carbon footprint, one job at a time.
2. America: We just cant wait to see how it ends!!
1. Making everything in this country free, except you.
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