I have been impressed by your efforts with your CNC mill. I would very much like a similar machine, but I am not at all sure a
similar effort is financially viable. So, the question is; Have you done a cost analysis of your project? If so, would you mind
posting your material/equipment costs and your hours.
Thanks in advance,
Steve

On 2010-11-30, Steve Lusardi wrote:
I have been impressed by your efforts with your CNC mill. I would very much like a similar machine, but I am not at all sure a
similar effort is financially viable. So, the question is; Have you done a cost analysis of your project? If so, would you mind
posting your material/equipment costs and your hours.
Thanks in advance,
Steve


Steve, I have a spreadsheet here. The tab is "components used".

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Brid...8-Spreadsheet/

You really need to read it carefully.

Please note that it includes the cost of 4th axis stuff, such as
Troyke CNC rotary table, resolver converter, etc. Also includes a new
PC that I assembled.

The mill's cost was $500, but I sold parts of it for $495, which is
also reflected here.

i

Ignoramus9343 wrote:

On 2010-11-30, Steve Lusardi wrote:
I have been impressed by your efforts with your CNC mill. I would very much like a similar machine, but I am not at all sure a
similar effort is financially viable. So, the question is; Have you done a cost analysis of your project? If so, would you mind
posting your material/equipment costs and your hours.
Thanks in advance,
Steve


Steve, I have a spreadsheet here. The tab is "components used".

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Brid...8-Spreadsheet/

You really need to read it carefully.

Please note that it includes the cost of 4th axis stuff, such as
Troyke CNC rotary table, resolver converter, etc. Also includes a new
PC that I assembled.

The mill's cost was $500, but I sold parts of it for $495, which is
also reflected here.

i

Just remember to multiply the "Iggy scrounge" costs by 2.5X to get the
real costs for the rest of us...

On 11/30/2010 02:48 AM, Steve Lusardi wrote:
I have been impressed by your efforts with your CNC mill. I would very
much like a similar machine, but I am not at all sure a similar effort
is financially viable. So, the question is; Have you done a cost
analysis of your project? If so, would you mind posting your
material/equipment costs and your hours.
Iggy did not go the cheap route. He did it "right" according to my
view, but he could have done it cheaper. If cost is real important, get
a stepper-driven BOSS mill with a dead control. There are lots of them
around. Build a power supply and get some Gecko stepper drives.
Total cost for retrofit components will be about $300 - $500 depending
on how good a scrounger you are. Admittedly I am pretty experienced
with this, but I could get it running in one weekend. Many BOSS
machines are 2-axis only, for a fully flexible machine you want to start
with a 3-axis CNC machine, not with the 2-axis BOSS with the ghastly
"spindle wizard".

Jon

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
I have been impressed by your efforts with your CNC mill. I would very
much like a similar machine, but I am not at all sure a similar effort is
financially viable. So, the question is; Have you done a cost analysis of
your project? If so, would you mind posting your material/equipment costs
and your hours.
Thanks in advance,
Steve

My 2¢.

Also, it depends on what you want to do, and how much of it you want to do
....

.... and how much of it you really do.

If you just want to cut 2-3 small parts a year and maybe engrave a half
dozen things. You pretty much can't beat a MaxNC5 from Deepgroove1 (Paul
Henrick) for under a grand for price. The new ones have ACME screws and
anti backlash nuts from Max NC. I would double check that the one's Paul
buys from them are assembled the same, but I like the Gecko controller he
provides much better than the Max NC controller. (Mine was a clapped out 10
year (atleast) old machine that I retrofit.) I like the construction and
alignment of the MaxNC machines better than the Taig mills even though the
MaxNC is all hard anodized aluminum with no iron parts.

I am doing about 10-15 times as much work on my mini mill(s) as I originally
planned to do. Its one reason why I have experimented with multiple
spindles, bigger motors, high speed spindles etc. Its also why I picked up
the used Hurco. I hope I can get it going and set it up to cut 4-5 complex
parts in a run... or more just by removing finished parts and replacing them
with blanks while it cuts the next one. As far as the cutting time... I
don't think it will be any faster. You can only push a .039" cutter just so
fast.

I really like Iggy's setup. If I had it to do over again paired with all
the hard won knowledge and experience I would probably still have started
with a "turnkey" (note the quotes) mini machine. However, I would also have
immediately started shopping for a good big machine to retrofit or repair.
The mini machine is awesome for making parts for the bigger machines. It is
possible to have everything you need to start cutting parts with a mini
pretty cheap.

My next experiment is a laser / camera scanner to generate point clouds ...
Yeah right. In about 5 years the way projects are stacking up. LOL.
Fortunately there are lots of DIYers who have already done it.

Part of amount of work though is that I have found making chips is almost as
enjoyable to me as fishing.

My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

i

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either. Heck
anything other than full training by the factory service rep who just
installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer might be considered
suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that way or anyway other than at
the lowest end I would still be out in the cold as far as making my own
parts.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.
I

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

i

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.
If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I need
to get the Hurco going too.

(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale, but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for the
price.)

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.
If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I need
to get the Hurco going too.

(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale, but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for the
price.)

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.
If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I need
to get the Hurco going too.

(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale, but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for the
price.)

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.
If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I need
to get the Hurco going too.

(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale, but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for the
price.)

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.
If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I need
to get the Hurco going too.

(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale, but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for the
price.)

On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.
If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I need
to get the Hurco going too.

Is there something wrong with this Hurco?

What is its condition?

i

(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale, but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for the
price.)

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just
wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to
do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence
now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.
If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it
would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any
parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to
make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a
working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I
need
to get the Hurco going too.

Is there something wrong with this Hurco?

I can't imagine buying a used machine and not assuming it has problems.

Problems:

1. Well, at the moment I haven't figured out how to get it off the trailer
and into my shop where I want it.
2. Mechanically it seems sound. X & Y work. Z may not. If I can't get it
going I'll just start retrofitting the electronics. I may do that anyway in
order to get more modern PC based controls for it.
3. Need to pick up a rotary phase convertor for it.

If I retrofit to a newer control it I may want to do some things
differently. Hence make parts.

2. There are a couple things I can think of to try after reading the
manuals (IT CAME WITH MANUALS) that might cure the Z problem. It may be
stuck in dry run mode mode. Z axis brake may not be releasing. Etc.






What is its condition?

i

(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale,
but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for
the
price.)

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 15:25:58 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
m...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

It's a good thing educational time isn't billable.


On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

Suckage.


Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.

Congrats, Bob.


If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I need
to get the Hurco going too.

There ya go.


(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale, but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for the
price.)

both ears perked up and faced forward for that

Yes, go on...

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

Is there something wrong with this Hurco?

I can't imagine buying a used machine and not assuming it has problems.

Problems:

[ ... ]

2. There are a couple things I can think of to try after reading the
manuals (IT CAME WITH MANUALS) that might cure the Z problem. It may be
stuck in dry run mode mode. Z axis brake may not be releasing. Etc.

Just out of curiosity -- does it perhaps need compressed air to
release the Z-axis brake? Make sure that you are supplying it with
everything that it needs.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-12-02, DoN. Nichols wrote:

Just out of curiosity -- does it perhaps need compressed air to
release the Z-axis brake? Make sure that you are supplying it with
everything that it needs.

On my mill, no air means brake not applied.

i

Ignoramus24652 wrote:

On 2010-12-02, DoN. Nichols wrote:

Just out of curiosity -- does it perhaps need compressed air to
release the Z-axis brake? Make sure that you are supplying it with
everything that it needs.

On my mill, no air means brake not applied.

i

They're talking Z axis brake, not spindle brake.

On machines that have them, Z axis brakes are normally of the
power/air/hydraulic to release i.e. fail-safe variety to endure the
heavy machine head doesn't crash into the table/part/vise/fixture on
power down. Small machines with Z quills don't have Z brakes since they
don't have enough weight to cause the Z ballscrew to back drive when the
servo is off.

Spindle brakes don't usually exist on larger machines with servo
spindles and ATCs since they aren't needed. The spindle servo handles
braking and spindle orient just fine, and the power drawbar is a spring
loaded (belville washer stack) hydraulically operated setup that doesn't
impart any rotational force when operating.

On 2010-12-02, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus24652 wrote:

On 2010-12-02, DoN. Nichols wrote:

Just out of curiosity -- does it perhaps need compressed air to
release the Z-axis brake? Make sure that you are supplying it with
everything that it needs.

On my mill, no air means brake not applied.

i

They're talking Z axis brake, not spindle brake.

On machines that have them, Z axis brakes are normally of the
power/air/hydraulic to release i.e. fail-safe variety to endure the
heavy machine head doesn't crash into the table/part/vise/fixture on
power down. Small machines with Z quills don't have Z brakes since they
don't have enough weight to cause the Z ballscrew to back drive when the
servo is off.

Spindle brakes don't usually exist on larger machines with servo
spindles and ATCs since they aren't needed. The spindle servo handles
braking and spindle orient just fine, and the power drawbar is a spring
loaded (belville washer stack) hydraulically operated setup that doesn't
impart any rotational force when operating.

I see. Thanks. In another life, I may want to be a CNC programmer or
something of that sort.


i

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 15:25:58 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
om...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought
your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

It's a good thing educational time isn't billable.


On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

Suckage.


Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just
wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to
do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.

Congrats, Bob.


If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it
would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any
parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I
need
to get the Hurco going too.

There ya go.


(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale,
but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for
the
price.)

both ears perked up and faced forward for that

Yes, go on...

Well, some ideas you just have to go make some chips to learn what you
really need to do. Some ideas you need to wrap your mind around for a while
and then just go crank it out. Some ideas you need to do the 2nd first and
then the 1st 2nd before going back to the 2nd before getting back to the 1st
to make a real part. (Clear as mud right?) I'm somewhere in the middle.
Fortunately all the other projects and ideas help with the hard won
knowledge and experience of the chip making process. There are a number of
approaches and cost is a major factor.

For example its pretty hard to beat a preloaded ball screw nut with some
spring pressure on it. Ok... so just make it with top quality ball screws
right with antibacklash preloaded drive nuts? Not if you have a price
target. Top quality ball screws alone without the cost of the rest of the
parts of the machine cost as much as some machines. At the opposite end of
the spectrum are 60 deg V thread lead screws with simple brass (or bronze
for more money) pinch nuts. Cheap, effective, and somewhat accurate ones
can be had, but at the cost of long term life and accuracy and uneven wear
making it more complicated as your machine ages.

How about using a combination of things for a compromise. Delrin wears very
nicely, but it has a load coefficient that will destroy it pretty quickly
once you go over it... once. Backlash reduction... elimination... Backlash
nuts work, but many machines can apply more force than the springs can take
and when pushing hard you can lose your compensation, although repeatability
on the same cut will be decent. Beef up the spring? Then you are working
your motors harder too. Get bigger motors you say? Then your price goes
up.

I said was "playing" with the idea. LOL.

Bob La Londe wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 15:25:58 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
om...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...
My opinion only. Buying that Bridgeport Interact mill was NOT due to
my foresight, deep knowledge of CNC, or careful analysis of what
exactly I need. It was more of an element of dumb luck, combined with
an insight that a machine of this size is manageable, yet capable.

Most importantly, I was VERY attracted by the fact that the machine
did not seemingly need any physical retrofit (such as swapping lead
screws for ball screws and other such things). I am now of a very firm
opinion that doing physical retrofits is always suboptimal.

Yeah, and most folks don't get to buy a machine for $500 either.

It is not like I was privileged in any way. It was not an inside
deal. I saw the same ad on craigslist that everyone else saw.

So I had the same opportunity that was available to anybody.

I was not even very quick to buy it, it took me about 3 hours to
finalize all conversations with the seller and arrive at a virtual
handshake. If you recall, I was asking questions here as to whether to
go with it.

Then I paid same evening and took possession of manuals and tool
holders.

Heck anything other than full training by the factory service rep
who just installed your brand new $100K machine with tool changer
might be considered suboptimal by some folks. If I had gone that
way or anyway other than at the lowest end I would still be out in
the cold as far as making my own parts.

I think that if I was making money by machining, this is what I would
do, as well.

Knowing what I know now, I personally would stay away from any hobby
machines.

Fair enough, but how long did it take from the time that you bought
your
mill until you were CNC cutting parts?

I bought it in March around March 15. At the end of March, I picked it
up and delivered to my friend's warehouse. I got it to my house around
June 1.

On Jul 31 I made my first metal cuts (sprocket). So, it was 2 months.

I spent about 300-350 hours. If I billed someone for that at $50 per
hour, the cost of my time would be $17k. However, if I paid $17k to
get a working CNC mill, I would not have learned a lot of useful
things.

It's a good thing educational time isn't billable.


On balance, unlike making a microcontroller control for a welder, it
was worth it. The welder was the opposite, I spent a lot of time, and
a lot of money, I ended up with a machine that worked as designed,
reliably, but was inconvenient to use.

Suckage.


Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just
wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to
do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.

Congrats, Bob.


If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it
would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any
parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I
need
to get the Hurco going too.

There ya go.


(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale,
but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for
the
price.)

both ears perked up and faced forward for that

Yes, go on...

Well, some ideas you just have to go make some chips to learn what you
really need to do. Some ideas you need to wrap your mind around for a while
and then just go crank it out. Some ideas you need to do the 2nd first and
then the 1st 2nd before going back to the 2nd before getting back to the 1st
to make a real part. (Clear as mud right?) I'm somewhere in the middle.
Fortunately all the other projects and ideas help with the hard won
knowledge and experience of the chip making process. There are a number of
approaches and cost is a major factor.

For example its pretty hard to beat a preloaded ball screw nut with some
spring pressure on it. Ok... so just make it with top quality ball screws
right with antibacklash preloaded drive nuts? Not if you have a price
target. Top quality ball screws alone without the cost of the rest of the
parts of the machine cost as much as some machines. At the opposite end of
the spectrum are 60 deg V thread lead screws with simple brass (or bronze
for more money) pinch nuts. Cheap, effective, and somewhat accurate ones
can be had, but at the cost of long term life and accuracy and uneven wear
making it more complicated as your machine ages.

How about using a combination of things for a compromise. Delrin wears very
nicely, but it has a load coefficient that will destroy it pretty quickly
once you go over it... once. Backlash reduction... elimination... Backlash
nuts work, but many machines can apply more force than the springs can take
and when pushing hard you can lose your compensation, although repeatability
on the same cut will be decent. Beef up the spring? Then you are working
your motors harder too. Get bigger motors you say? Then your price goes
up.

I said was "playing" with the idea. LOL.



Quality rolled ballscrews with minimal backlash, and software backlash
compensation. Just keep the backlash to compensatable levels, and the
drive system up to performing the compensation. Don't forget the pitch
error screw mapping as well.

My little X2 mini-mill performs decently with it's stock ACME screws and
bronze nuts, driven by 600oz steppers at 30 IPM which is a decent feed
rate for a fractional HP spindle with a 2,500 RPM top speed. Even the
much crummier Z performs surprisingly well with a stepper driving it's
stock "fine feed". Certainly I could improve things, but I had about a
week to get the machine running for a project and it's done quite well.

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus24652" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

Is there something wrong with this Hurco?

I can't imagine buying a used machine and not assuming it has problems.

Problems:

[ ... ]

2. There are a couple things I can think of to try after reading
the
manuals (IT CAME WITH MANUALS) that might cure the Z problem. It may be
stuck in dry run mode mode. Z axis brake may not be releasing. Etc.

Just out of curiosity -- does it perhaps need compressed air to
release the Z-axis brake? Make sure that you are supplying it with
everything that it needs.

It does require compressed air. For what specifically I have not determined
yet. There is a filter drier (cheap kind) on the back of the machine. and
it specifically lists some air requirements in the manuals. I was thinking
it might be for the lubrications system, but it would make sense to be for
an air release brake.

I was thinking about all this stuff, but I am still cleaning up the shop
right now to make room for it, and to get he trailer inside.

How many times has this one been posted? I seem to have seen at least a
half dozen. Is there some problem with your newsreader, your computer,
or your news server?

I'll trim the quoted text (below -- uncommon for my postings to
bottom quote, but it fits for this, I think) to only what you posted --
but this should be enough to identify the article in question.

Good luck,
DoN.

On 2010-12-01, Bob La Londe wrote:

[ ... ]

Let me first say I don't disagree with your reasoning one bit. Just wanted
to point out that from another perspective for a different person another
machine might be a better starting choice depending on what they want to do.
I think it was a better starting point for me. I have 100% confidence now
that I can take a non working machine and turn it into a working machine.
If I had started out with the Hurco two years ago though I suspect it would
still be sitting under a tarp in the shop and I wouldn't have cut any parts
in all that time. Instead I used the Taig to make parts, and even to make
parts to take another small non-working machine and turn it into a working
machine. I will probably use the two mini machines to make any parts I need
to get the Hurco going too.

(I've even been playing with the idea of making mini machines for sale, but
incorporating some of the things I have learned to make them better for the
price.)








--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
How many times has this one been posted? I seem to have seen at least a
half dozen. Is there some problem with your newsreader, your computer,
or your news server?

I think it was a problem with aioe and Live. That post showed in the outbox
forever, but there was never a was never an error on the send/receive. I
don't seem to have that problem with Teranews or Eternal September.