Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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We go on dry lakes that are/were used for strafing and bombing practice. We
are always finding weird pieces of whatnot. For the longest time, we have
been finding a light metal grey bar, about an inch square, and eight inches
long. The other night, we were camping, and tossed a sliver of it on the
fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.

Steve


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On 2010-11-28, Steve B wrote:
We go on dry lakes that are/were used for strafing and bombing practice. We
are always finding weird pieces of whatnot. For the longest time, we have
been finding a light metal grey bar, about an inch square, and eight inches
long. The other night, we were camping, and tossed a sliver of it on the
fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.


I have a jar of magnesium shavings and I often burn it for kids
entertainment. While, I would say, it is fun to watch, I would not
call it spectacular. I think that your 1x1x8" bar would make a fun
little fire, but nothing beyond this, unless you converted the whole
mass into shavings. Then it would be just a bigger fire.

i
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Ignoramus18541 wrote:
On 2010-11-28, Steve B wrote:
We go on dry lakes that are/were used for strafing and bombing practice.
We
are always finding weird pieces of whatnot. For the longest time, we
have been finding a light metal grey bar, about an inch square, and eight
inches
long. The other night, we were camping, and tossed a sliver of it on the
fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.


I have a jar of magnesium shavings and I often burn it for kids
entertainment. While, I would say, it is fun to watch, I would not
call it spectacular. I think that your 1x1x8" bar would make a fun
little fire, but nothing beyond this, unless you converted the whole
mass into shavings. Then it would be just a bigger fire.

We recently had a customer order some magnesium parts; a couple of
machinists were burning some chips, and they poured water on it and it
flared up! Evidently Mg burns hot enough to actually extract the O2 from
2H2O or whatever; unfortunately we didn't have a CO2 fire extinguisher
on hand, or I'd have checked if Mg would even eat CO2.

Anybody ever tested that?

Thanks,
Rich

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Ted Frater wrote:

Are there any chemists here?
I ask because im interested to know why water makes it burn so much
hotter/faster etc.
Could it be that oxidising magnesium splits water, ie hydrogen oxide
into its seperate parts? of oxygen and hydrogen?


I think it's just that Mg is such an aggressive reducing agent. I wonder
if anybody's experimented with CO2?

IF it does it might just be a keyto maing a car run on water if the
magnesium acts as a catalyst at its burning temperature..
One lives in hope!!!


This is just too stupid to warrant any kind of response.

Good Luck!
Rich

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"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus18541 wrote:
On 2010-11-28, Steve B wrote:
We go on dry lakes that are/were used for strafing and bombing practice.
We
are always finding weird pieces of whatnot. For the longest time, we
have been finding a light metal grey bar, about an inch square, and
eight
inches
long. The other night, we were camping, and tossed a sliver of it on
the
fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.


I have a jar of magnesium shavings and I often burn it for kids
entertainment. While, I would say, it is fun to watch, I would not
call it spectacular. I think that your 1x1x8" bar would make a fun
little fire, but nothing beyond this, unless you converted the whole
mass into shavings. Then it would be just a bigger fire.

We recently had a customer order some magnesium parts; a couple of
machinists were burning some chips, and they poured water on it and it
flared up! Evidently Mg burns hot enough to actually extract the O2 from
2H2O or whatever; unfortunately we didn't have a CO2 fire extinguisher
on hand, or I'd have checked if Mg would even eat CO2.

Anybody ever tested that?


I haven't, but extinguishers for magnesium fires contained a black product
much like sand way back when. They may be different now.
My experience was back in the late 50's, early 60's, when I was employed in
a missile facility. Many of the components for the missile (Sergeant) were
made of magnesium.

We had one magnesium fire in the largest lathe in the shop, a 48" sliding
gap bed LeBlond. It was extinguished by the black material. Unfortunately,
I did not witness the event as it occurred on the opposite shift.

Harold



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Apologies if you founRich Grise wrote:
my thought Ted Frater wrote:
Are there any chemists here?
I ask because im interested to know why water makes it burn so much
hotter/faster etc.
Could it be that oxidising magnesium splits water, ie hydrogen oxide
into its seperate parts? of oxygen and hydrogen?


I think it's just that Mg is such an aggressive reducing agent. I wonder
if anybody's experimented with CO2?

IF it does it might just be a keyto maing a car run on water if the
magnesium acts as a catalyst at its burning temperature..
One lives in hope!!!


This is just too stupid to warrant any kind of response.

Good Luck!
Rich



Apologies if you found my thoughts stupid.
I have always found it pays to ask 10 questions of which 9 turn out to
be stupid with 1 that leads to a breakthrough to a solution to an
problem that has been insoluable so far.
Finding answers to problems has made me a lot of money over the past 45 yrs.
Has anyone tried using magnesium as an anode for splitting water?
If it has a very fast reaction at 1000'c what might happen at say 400 ?
or 200'c.?
Ted
in Dorset
UK.
Who doesnt give up.
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Ted Frater wrote:

Apologies if you found my thoughts stupid.
I have always found it pays to ask 10 questions of which 9 turn out to
be stupid with 1 that leads to a breakthrough to a solution to an
problem that has been insoluable so far.
Finding answers to problems has made me a lot of money over the past
45 yrs.



No such thing as a stupid question - there are stupid answers though

Dave H.
--
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men" -
Douglas Bader



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On Nov 28, 5:53*am, Ted Frater wrote:
...
* IF it does it might just be a keyto maing a car run on water if the
magnesium acts as a catalyst at its burning temperature..
One lives in hope!!!


Magnesium isn't a catalyst, it's consumed in the reaction. Platinum
and some 'rare earth' oxides catalyze combustion, as in Coleman
lantern mantles and flammable vapor detectors for boats.

Mg would be more valuable in a rechargeable battery, as would
aluminum, but so far only lithium is safe enough for general use, and
only because embedded computer control is practical for the higher-
performing systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-activated_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-sulfur_battery

I looked into these when I was a chemist, then the Vietnam draft
yanked me into electronics where I stayed.

Are you a product of a "Two Cultures" educational system?

jsw
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Rich Grise wrote:
... unfortunately we didn't have a CO2 fire extinguisher
on hand, or I'd have checked if Mg would even eat CO2.

....

Yes, Mg will "burn" with CO2. Bob
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Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 28, 5:53 am, Ted Frater wrote:
...
IF it does it might just be a keyto maing a car run on water if the
magnesium acts as a catalyst at its burning temperature..
One lives in hope!!!


Magnesium isn't a catalyst, it's consumed in the reaction. Platinum
and some 'rare earth' oxides catalyze combustion, as in Coleman
lantern mantles and flammable vapor detectors for boats.

Mg would be more valuable in a rechargeable battery, as would
aluminum, but so far only lithium is safe enough for general use, and
only because embedded computer control is practical for the higher-
performing systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-activated_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-sulfur_battery

I looked into these when I was a chemist, then the Vietnam draft
yanked me into electronics where I stayed.

Are you a product of a "Two Cultures" educational system?

jsw


Hi JSW,
Ive never heard of the "two culture" system, so googled it and CP Snow
gave a lecture on it at Cambridge some time back!
I guess ive been lucky with the education Ive had,
A UK grammar school,a through grounding in the basics.
1 year in art and drama
2 yrs to graduate level aviation engineering,
10 yrs in ethical sales and marketing,
Then I decided to work for myself designing and making applied art
items. Always pushing the boundaries of the work.
Did that for 35 yrs,
then 10 yrs to date in engineering consultancy and troubleshooting.
Does that make sense?
Ive certainly had a great time and done everything ive wanted to.
And still do the applied art work.
Ted.


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On 11/28/2010 8:43 AM, Ted Frater wrote:

(snip)

10 yrs in ethical sales and marketing,


Please explain this, it sounds like an oxymoron.

David
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On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:59:09 +0000, Ted Frater
wrote:

Are there any chemists here?


Sure are. :-)

I ask because im interested to know why water makes it burn so much
hotter/faster etc.
Could it be that oxidising magnesium splits water, ie hydrogen oxide
into its seperate parts? of oxygen and hydrogen?


Yes, when magnesium burns in steam, or when you have a largish chunk
of burning Mg and throw water on it, the Mg combines with the oxygen
from water and releases hydrogen gas. And the H2 burns in air. Lots
of fun.

Mg + H2O -- MgO + H2

Similar reactions with CO2 and with sand:

2 Mg + CO2 -- 2 MgO + C (soot)
2 Mg + SiO2 -- 2 MgO + Si

IF it does it might just be a keyto maing a car run on water if the
magnesium acts as a catalyst at its burning temperature.


Nope. Say you have a reaction that "goes" but is much too slow, such
as nitrogen reacting with hydrogen to give ammonia. A *catalyst* is
something that makes that sort of reaction go faster. The catalyst is
recovered after the reaction, it is not consumed.

When magnesium burns, it's *consumed*. Gone.

And in case the inevitable question arises....no, you can't
economically fuel a car on magnesium or hydrogen or insert magic fuel
here as long as the fuel chosen is obtained by electricity. UNLESS
that electricity is generated from an inexhaustible source (sun, wind)
or cheap renewable source (plant matter). To make Mg or H2 requires
electrical energy that is exactly equal to (well, MORE than) the
energy obtained by burning that material.

It's the whatever law of thermogoddamics, I forget which one. :-)
--
Best -- Terry
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On Nov 28, 11:51*am, Terry wrote:
...
It's the whatever law of thermogoddamics, I forget which one. :-)
Best -- Terry


The Second, TANSTAAFL.

jsw
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Ted Frater wrote:
Apologies if you founRich Grise wrote:
my thought Ted Frater wrote:
Are there any chemists here?
I ask because im interested to know why water makes it burn so much
hotter/faster etc.
Could it be that oxidising magnesium splits water, ie hydrogen oxide
into its seperate parts? of oxygen and hydrogen?


I think it's just that Mg is such an aggressive reducing agent. I wonder
if anybody's experimented with CO2?

IF it does it might just be a keyto maing a car run on water if the
magnesium acts as a catalyst at its burning temperature..
One lives in hope!!!


This is just too stupid to warrant any kind of response.


Apologies if you found my thoughts stupid.
I have always found it pays to ask 10 questions of which 9 turn out to
be stupid with 1 that leads to a breakthrough to a solution to an
problem that has been insoluable so far.
Finding answers to problems has made me a lot of money over the past 45
yrs. Has anyone tried using magnesium as an anode for splitting water?
If it has a very fast reaction at 1000'c what might happen at say 400 ?
or 200'c.?


Sigh. Don't they teach anybody elementary physics any more? Extracting
hydrogen from water requires more energy input than can ever possibly be
recovered by burning the hydrogen.

It's called "conservation of energy," one of the fundamental "Laws of
Physics."

Hope This Helps!
Rich

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Rich Grise wrote:
Ignoramus18541 wrote:
On 2010-11-28, Steve B wrote:
We go on dry lakes that are/were used for strafing and bombing practice.
We
are always finding weird pieces of whatnot. For the longest time, we
have been finding a light metal grey bar, about an inch square, and eight
inches
long. The other night, we were camping, and tossed a sliver of it on the
fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.

I have a jar of magnesium shavings and I often burn it for kids
entertainment. While, I would say, it is fun to watch, I would not
call it spectacular. I think that your 1x1x8" bar would make a fun
little fire, but nothing beyond this, unless you converted the whole
mass into shavings. Then it would be just a bigger fire.

We recently had a customer order some magnesium parts; a couple of
machinists were burning some chips, and they poured water on it and it
flared up! Evidently Mg burns hot enough to actually extract the O2 from
2H2O or whatever; unfortunately we didn't have a CO2 fire extinguisher
on hand, or I'd have checked if Mg would even eat CO2.

Anybody ever tested that?

Thanks,
Rich


There are only a couple types of extinguishing agents that will actually
put magnesium.
Class D agents like Sodium Carbonate, Graphite/Copper powder and similar.

Sand, Dirt and the like will work because they stop all oxygen from
reaching the mg.

You can use water BUT you need a LOT of it VERY fast to do any good. You
need to drop the entire amount of magnesium below ignition temperature
and keep it there long enough for the reaction to stop. Not easy to do
even with a fire hose!

OH and FYI, for folks who think they don't need to worry about it. Don't
look over your vehicles! MANY parts are made of magnesium alloys.


--
Steve W.


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"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Rich Grise wrote:
Ignoramus18541 wrote:
On 2010-11-28, Steve B wrote:
We go on dry lakes that are/were used for strafing and bombing
practice.
We
are always finding weird pieces of whatnot. For the longest time, we
have been finding a light metal grey bar, about an inch square, and
eight
inches
long.


snipped

There are only a couple types of extinguishing agents that will actually
put magnesium.
Class D agents like Sodium Carbonate, Graphite/Copper powder and similar.

Sand, Dirt and the like will work because they stop all oxygen from
reaching the mg.

You can use water BUT you need a LOT of it VERY fast to do any good. You
need to drop the entire amount of magnesium below ignition temperature
and keep it there long enough for the reaction to stop. Not easy to do
even with a fire hose!

OH and FYI, for folks who think they don't need to worry about it. Don't
look over your vehicles! MANY parts are made of magnesium alloys.


--
Steve W.


You beat me to it (except for point 3, which I hadn't thought about).

What I'd like to know is what these bars were. ISTR that tracer rounds are
made of (or contain) magnesium. I suppose these could have been part of some
sort of incendiary device which hadn't gone off properly?

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"newshound" wrote in message
...


"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Rich Grise wrote:
Ignoramus18541 wrote:
On 2010-11-28, Steve B wrote:
We go on dry lakes that are/were used for strafing and bombing
practice.
We
are always finding weird pieces of whatnot. For the longest time, we
have been finding a light metal grey bar, about an inch square, and
eight
inches
long.


snipped

There are only a couple types of extinguishing agents that will actually
put magnesium.
Class D agents like Sodium Carbonate, Graphite/Copper powder and similar.

Sand, Dirt and the like will work because they stop all oxygen from
reaching the mg.

You can use water BUT you need a LOT of it VERY fast to do any good. You
need to drop the entire amount of magnesium below ignition temperature
and keep it there long enough for the reaction to stop. Not easy to do
even with a fire hose!

OH and FYI, for folks who think they don't need to worry about it. Don't
look over your vehicles! MANY parts are made of magnesium alloys.


--
Steve W.


You beat me to it (except for point 3, which I hadn't thought about).

What I'd like to know is what these bars were. ISTR that tracer rounds are
made of (or contain) magnesium. I suppose these could have been part of
some sort of incendiary device which hadn't gone off properly?


We surmised that they were flares that did not ignite. Some flares are for
illumination, others are to fool enemy radar and missiles.

Steve


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David R. Birch wrote:
On 11/28/2010 8:43 AM, Ted Frater wrote:

(snip)

10 yrs in ethical sales and marketing,


Please explain this, it sounds like an oxymoron.

David


OK, so ill be patient and hope you follow.
Theres this elderly guy
walks into my hardware store
looks at the pick and shovel and wheel barrow section.
So I goes over and ask if I can help.
He says he needs to dig a trench
what size I ask?
he replies its 100 yds wide,2 yds deep and 500 yds long
so I ask how long does he think it will take?
he replies not very long.
So,
1.
as an sales person, do I agree with him? saying the tools are ideal for
his job and ability and sell him the tools he asks for?
Or2.
do I take him outside and show him the Euclid excavator that will do
the job without taking the rest of his lifetime and kill him in the
process?
the Co I worked for would have fired me on the spot if I had advised
option 1.
Ted.


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On 11/28/2010 4:43 PM, Ted Frater wrote:
David R. Birch wrote:
On 11/28/2010 8:43 AM, Ted Frater wrote:

(snip)

10 yrs in ethical sales and marketing,


Please explain this, it sounds like an oxymoron.

David


OK, so ill be patient and hope you follow.
Theres this elderly guy
walks into my hardware store
looks at the pick and shovel and wheel barrow section.
So I goes over and ask if I can help.
He says he needs to dig a trench
what size I ask?
he replies its 100 yds wide,2 yds deep and 500 yds long
so I ask how long does he think it will take?
he replies not very long.
So,
1.
as an sales person, do I agree with him? saying the tools are ideal for
his job and ability and sell him the tools he asks for?
Or2.
do I take him outside and show him the Euclid excavator that will do the
job without taking the rest of his lifetime and kill him in the process?
the Co I worked for would have fired me on the spot if I had advised
option 1.
Ted.


Just as I did when I used to sell stuff, you sell the customer what he
needs to get the job done and he'll be back when he's ready for the next
job.

Sales and Marketing is where someone decides how to sell the product
before it's out of R&D and before the specs are known. See "Dilbert".

David
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On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 18:18:22 -0800, Steve B wrote:

The other night, we were camping, and tossed a
sliver of it on the fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.


It's surprisingly hard to get solid magnesium to light up. The cases of
NeXT computers were cast from magnesium, and Simson Garfinkel set out to
light it up. He had to heat it up significantly (like, with a torch) to
ignite the solid metal:

http://simson.net/hacks/cubefire.html


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"Przemek Klosowski" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 18:18:22 -0800, Steve B wrote:

The other night, we were camping, and tossed a
sliver of it on the fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.


It's surprisingly hard to get solid magnesium to light up. The cases of
NeXT computers were cast from magnesium, and Simson Garfinkel set out to
light it up. He had to heat it up significantly (like, with a torch) to
ignite the solid metal:

http://simson.net/hacks/cubefire.html


No problem there whatsoever. I have a torch.

Steve


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Przemek Klosowski wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 18:18:22 -0800, Steve B wrote:

The other night, we were camping, and tossed a
sliver of it on the fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.


It's surprisingly hard to get solid magnesium to light up. The cases of
NeXT computers were cast from magnesium, and Simson Garfinkel set out to
light it up. He had to heat it up significantly (like, with a torch) to
ignite the solid metal:

http://simson.net/hacks/cubefire.html


Not real hard in a vehicle fire....

--
Steve W.
(\___/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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On 11/28/2010 01:59 AM, Ted Frater wrote:

Are there any chemists here?
I ask because im interested to know why water makes it burn so much
hotter/faster etc.
Could it be that oxidising magnesium splits water, ie hydrogen oxide
into its seperate parts? of oxygen and hydrogen?

Yes, clearly so. If you do this, the odor of ammonia in the air is
unmistakable. The free hydrogen combines with the nitrogen from the
air. If there's hydrogen floating around, that must have come from the
water.
IF it does it might just be a keyto maing a car run on water if the
magnesium acts as a catalyst at its burning temperature..

First, you would have to supply a lot of magnesium and get it hot enough
to ignite. This is likely even more energy-intensive than
electrolyzing water, not to mention the fire hazards and cost of the
magnesium.

Well, as any chemist of physicist would know, the heat of formation of
water is really high, and there's no way to get at the hydrogen without
investing that much energy. There are tricks to lowering that energy by
moving into a different set of initial conditions, like heating the
water to 1000 C in a high pressure cell, and then recovering the heat
and pressure when you bring the H2 and O2 out of the cell. But, that
all involves more complicated machinery.

Finally, if you have to crack the water apart and then just want to burn
in in an IC engine, or use it in a fuel cell, you just get the same
energy back out, so it almost HAS to be a losing proposition.
If there was an easy way to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics,
somebody would have already figured this out by now.

Jon
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On 11/28/2010 09:08 AM, Steve B wrote:
Is Dave Barry's Barbecuing with liquid oxygen video still available?

Actually, the guy you want is George Goble at Purdue. Just Google
George Goble and you should find info and links. Dave Barry just
reported on George's exploits. I sold George a compressor that he used
in some tests of his R-12 refrigerant replacement formula.

Jon
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On 11/30/2010 02:18 PM, Steve W. wrote:


Not real hard in a vehicle fire....


Yeah, the old VW microbuses had a magnesium crankcase - or was it
transaxle? I saw one go up, the firemen were just standing around
watching it burn. It started dripping big globs of white-hot metal on
the pavement. Then, another fire department combo truck pulled up and
delivered what seemed to be a tiny liquid-type fire extinguisher. They
sprayed this yellow stuff on the fire, and then two guys with booster
hoses ran up and let it have a blast of water. It was like a 4th of
July ground display, with streamers of white hot metal flying in all
directions. Totally AWESOME, and if these guys didn't have the special
high-temp shielding suits on, they would have been severely burned.

I was amazed at how little damage it did to the pavement, if you didn't
know about the fire, you wouldn't have even noticed the spot.

Jon


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On 2010-11-30, Jon Elson wrote:
I was amazed at how little damage it did to the pavement, if you didn't
know about the fire, you wouldn't have even noticed the spot.


I burned magnesium on concrete, and the concrete spalled, it was fun
to watch.

i
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Rich Grise wrote:

This is just too stupid to warrant any kind of response.


Be nice, Ted is a real metalworker, please don't drive him away.

Wes
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Przemek Klosowski wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 18:18:22 -0800, Steve B wrote:

The other night, we were camping, and tossed a
sliver of it on the fire.

It was magnesium. Good thing we didn't toss the entire bar.


It's surprisingly hard to get solid magnesium to light up. The cases
of NeXT computers were cast from magnesium, and Simson Garfinkel set
out to light it up. He had to heat it up significantly (like, with a
torch) to ignite the solid metal:

http://simson.net/hacks/cubefire.html


The article says it was difficult to ignite because it was a magnesium alloy
designed to be fire resistant.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.


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