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Default Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel

Dear Everyone,
as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while
the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil
is causing wars, terror, oil spills and a lot of greenhouse gases.
By upgrading your car to flex fuel, you will continue to be able to
use oil. However you will also have the
opportunity to use E85, that means more freedom of choice. The
conversion cost is about 200-250 USD.
By choosing ethanol, you choose local fuel production, which means
labour for farmers, labour for enginneers
and workers in the ethanol plant, labour for transportation. Moreover
you also help for indirect labour. Since
the money stays in your country, this money will turn and produce
indirect labour. Since the farmer will gain
your additional fuel money, he will buy other things (labour is again
needed for their production), which in case
of oil the oil-Sheikhs or their people would do.
That ethanol production increases the food prices is also not totally
right, first there is a by-product called
"distillers dried grains with solubles", which is used as feed for
livestock, that is also nothing else than
food. Moreover, by using ethanol, you put pressure on oil prices,
which has also an important effect on food
prices. You also give your money for more research (again labour),
which will yield in higher efficiency of
production and alternative production methods like cellulosic ethanol,
which will change the whole equation.
Again in case of oil this money would be spent for oil rigs, oil-
infrastructure, but also for weapons to
defend the oil.
By using ethanol, you produce less CO2, since it is produced by corn,
which actually consumed the CO2 in the air
for its growing. The more people use ethanol, the higher the
efficiencies will come for production (similar to
solar cells). The prices will go further down, and much less CO2 will
be produced during production in the plant.
Do you know that the production efficiencies already improved 30% ?*
Another reason for using ethanol is that oil prices will come up
again, when the barrel price of 150 USD is back
you will be very happy to have your vehicle converted. The conversion
also increases the value of your vehicle.

Yours sincerely.


Sources:
*http://brownfieldagnews.com/2010/09/...on-efficiency-
improves/
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Default Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel

On Nov 19, 1:18*pm, "........"
wrote:
Dear Everyone,
as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while
the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil
is causing wars, terror, oil spills and a lot of greenhouse gases.
By upgrading your car to flex fuel, you will continue to be able to
use oil. However you will also have the
opportunity to use E85, that means more freedom of choice. The
conversion cost is about 200-250 USD.
By choosing ethanol, you choose local fuel production, which means
labour for farmers, labour for enginneers
and workers in the ethanol plant, labour for transportation. Moreover
you also help for indirect labour. Since
the money stays in your country, this money will turn and produce
indirect labour. Since the farmer will gain
your additional fuel money, he will buy other things (labour is again
needed for their production), which in case
of oil the oil-Sheikhs or their people would do.
That ethanol production increases the food prices is also not totally
right, first there is a by-product called
"distillers dried grains with solubles", which is used as feed for
livestock, that is also nothing else than
food. Moreover, by using ethanol, you put pressure on oil prices,
which has also an important effect on food
prices. You also give your money for more research (again labour),
which will yield in higher efficiency of
production and alternative production methods like cellulosic ethanol,
which will change the whole equation.
Again in case of oil this money would be spent for oil rigs, oil-
infrastructure, but also for weapons to
defend the oil.
By using ethanol, you produce less CO2, since it is produced by corn,
which actually consumed the CO2 in the air
for its growing. The more people use ethanol, the higher the
efficiencies will come for production (similar to
solar cells). The prices will go further down, and much less CO2 will
be produced during production in the plant.
Do you know that the production efficiencies already improved 30% ?*
Another reason for using ethanol is that oil prices will come up
again, when the barrel price of 150 USD is back
you will be very happy to have your vehicle converted. The conversion
also increases the value of your vehicle.

Yours sincerely.

Sources:
*http://brownfieldagnews.com/2010/09/...on-efficiency-
improves/


All right Mr. Know-it all. How do I convert my 1983 Mercedes 300SD to
ethanol? Eh??? What no answer? where did you go?

Paul
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Default Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel

What an idiot....Don't you just love it when these guys open their uninformed mouths. The addition of ethyl alcohol in gasoline
make the fuel less energetic (lower BTUs by volume)(less miles per gallon) , makes the fuel more hygroscopic (water absorption
from air) and it rots rubber and other seal materials. Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. This is what happens when we allow green, illiterate
politicians this kind of authority. When the ethanol generation process can economically produce ethanol using waste vegetation
and the cost of this fuel becomes less than gasoline by at least 10% to compensate for the lower mileage, this fuel could be
viable. Until then, avoid it.
Steve

"KD7HB" wrote in message ...
On Nov 19, 1:18 pm, "........"
wrote:
Dear Everyone,
as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while
the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil
is causing wars, terror, oil spills and a lot of greenhouse gases.
By upgrading your car to flex fuel, you will continue to be able to
use oil. However you will also have the
opportunity to use E85, that means more freedom of choice. The
conversion cost is about 200-250 USD.
By choosing ethanol, you choose local fuel production, which means
labour for farmers, labour for enginneers
and workers in the ethanol plant, labour for transportation. Moreover
you also help for indirect labour. Since
the money stays in your country, this money will turn and produce
indirect labour. Since the farmer will gain
your additional fuel money, he will buy other things (labour is again
needed for their production), which in case
of oil the oil-Sheikhs or their people would do.
That ethanol production increases the food prices is also not totally
right, first there is a by-product called
"distillers dried grains with solubles", which is used as feed for
livestock, that is also nothing else than
food. Moreover, by using ethanol, you put pressure on oil prices,
which has also an important effect on food
prices. You also give your money for more research (again labour),
which will yield in higher efficiency of
production and alternative production methods like cellulosic ethanol,
which will change the whole equation.
Again in case of oil this money would be spent for oil rigs, oil-
infrastructure, but also for weapons to
defend the oil.
By using ethanol, you produce less CO2, since it is produced by corn,
which actually consumed the CO2 in the air
for its growing. The more people use ethanol, the higher the
efficiencies will come for production (similar to
solar cells). The prices will go further down, and much less CO2 will
be produced during production in the plant.
Do you know that the production efficiencies already improved 30% ?*
Another reason for using ethanol is that oil prices will come up
again, when the barrel price of 150 USD is back
you will be very happy to have your vehicle converted. The conversion
also increases the value of your vehicle.

Yours sincerely.

Sources:
*http://brownfieldagnews.com/2010/09/...on-efficiency-
improves/


All right Mr. Know-it all. How do I convert my 1983 Mercedes 300SD to
ethanol? Eh??? What no answer? where did you go?

Paul

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Default Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel

Steve Lusardi wrote:

Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world.


Hogwash.

The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the
Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain.
And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed
their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and
still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the
worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty.

It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world
dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast
quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity,
heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo.
And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to
think that people should be morally outraged by that.

-jim



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Default Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel


"jim" wrote in message
.. .
Steve Lusardi wrote:

Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world.


Hogwash.

The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss
the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the
Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the
vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain.
And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world"
because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed
their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies,
the majority of the citizens still live on farms and
still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices
represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the
worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty.

It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What
isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world
dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in
rural economies is used mostly to produce vast
quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around
The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity,
heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners
peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo.
And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have
to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to
think that people should be morally outraged by that.

-jim




I think you may want to do a little more research jim. You will also find
that old growth virgin forests are also being cleared to grow palms for oil.
The harm done in clearing is way more than the "good" done by using the
"renewable" fuel.





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Default Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel

Dennis wrote:

"jim" wrote in message
.. .
Steve Lusardi wrote:

Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world.


Hogwash.

The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss
the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the
Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the
vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain.
And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world"
because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed
their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies,
the majority of the citizens still live on farms and
still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices
represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the
worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty.

It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What
isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world
dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in
rural economies is used mostly to produce vast
quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around
The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity,
heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners
peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo.
And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have
to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to
think that people should be morally outraged by that.

-jim




I think you may want to do a little more research jim. You will also find
that old growth virgin forests are also being cleared to grow palms for oil.
The harm done in clearing is way more than the "good" done by using the
"renewable" fuel.


What has that got to do with anything I said?

If it were made illegal to put ethanol in US autos would that make any
difference as to how many old growth trees are replaced by palm oil trees.



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On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:

Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world.


Hogwash.

The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the
Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain.
And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed
their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and
still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the
worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty.

It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world
dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast
quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity,
heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo.
And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to
think that people should be morally outraged by that.

-jim


I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia,
while a large number of people are engaged in growing cereal grains
they are not growing corn and the cereal grain, rice, is far too
valuable as human food to be used for fuel and I use valuable in the
sense of generating cash, rather then any philosophical meaning. In
fact, in Thailand corn on the cob is sold almost as a "goody" right
along side the candy and cookies and to the best of my knowledge no
Thai recipes use corn in any form for food.

And, by the way, the rice growers of Asia have not been hurt by the
U.S.' agricultural policies as y'all don't grow good eating rice.

China and India are the two largest producers of rice in the world,
however they also consume the majority of their crops internally and
Thailand is the largest exporter of rice with about twice the sales of
the next largest and a little over three times that of the U.S..
Figures for the top rice exporters a

Thailand, 10 million tons (34.5% of global rice exports)
India, 4.8 million tons (16.5%)
Vietnam, 4.1 million tons (14.1%)
United States, 3.1 million tons (10.6%)
Pakistan, 1.8 million tons (6.3%)


Cheers,

Bruce
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Jim,
Your research is incomplete. The evidence is just below our border in Mexico. Please don't resort to throwing names like most
leftards do when presented with the facts. If you consider the surface area required to harvest oil bearing produce that equates
to just 50% of our current petroleum consumption, there would be no available room for food production. Even if there would be
with the advent of shelved production of algae, the demand on our existing water resources would exceed their capacity by a very
large margin. Also, because oil is still the best battery known (With the exception of Nuclear), there is no known substitute.
Think energy density. Not only does that energy medium have to exist, it must also be competitive in cost. Nobody will cut their
standard of living on purpose nor should they. Please also remember that technical innovation can never be legislated. Shame on
those that think otherwise.
Steve

"jim" wrote in message .. .
Steve Lusardi wrote:

Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world.


Hogwash.

The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the
Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow
grain.
And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has
destroyed
their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and
still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of
the
worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty.

It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd
world
dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast
quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of
obesity,
heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the
status-quo.
And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to
think that people should be morally outraged by that.

-jim




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Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:

Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world.


Hogwash.

The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the
Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain.
And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed
their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and
still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the
worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty.

It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world
dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast
quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity,
heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo.
And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to
think that people should be morally outraged by that.

-jim


I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia,
while a large number of people are engaged in growing cereal grains
they are not growing corn and the cereal grain, rice, is far too
valuable as human food to be used for fuel and I use valuable in the
sense of generating cash, rather then any philosophical meaning. In
fact, in Thailand corn on the cob is sold almost as a "goody" right
along side the candy and cookies and to the best of my knowledge no
Thai recipes use corn in any form for food.

And, by the way, the rice growers of Asia have not been hurt by the
U.S.' agricultural policies as y'all don't grow good eating rice.

China and India are the two largest producers of rice in the world,
however they also consume the majority of their crops internally and
Thailand is the largest exporter of rice with about twice the sales of
the next largest and a little over three times that of the U.S..
Figures for the top rice exporters a

Thailand, 10 million tons (34.5% of global rice exports)
India, 4.8 million tons (16.5%)
Vietnam, 4.1 million tons (14.1%)
United States, 3.1 million tons (10.6%)
Pakistan, 1.8 million tons (6.3%)


And what has that got to do with anything I said?

I responded to this statement:

"Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price
of corn and other grains across the market place
denying food to the poor across the world."

So what is it you are trying to say? Are you saying US corn is irrelevant to world grain prices? The US ethanol market has no effect on
Thailand's rice farmers?

http://www.indexmundi.com/commoditie...ice&months=120

This article says it better than I can:

http://www.ase.tufts.edu/gdae/Pubs/r...genceMar10.pdf


The fact that US predatory farm exports keep millions of poor farmers poor is only half the story. The other half of the story is about
the millions that are forced out of the beseiged rural economy into shantytown slums that surround 3rd world cities.








Cheers,

Bruce





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On 2010-11-20, Steve Lusardi wrote:
Jim,
Your research is incomplete. The evidence is just below our border in Mexico. Please don't resort to throwing names like most
leftards do when presented with the facts. If you consider the surface area required to harvest oil bearing produce that equates
to just 50% of our current petroleum consumption, there would be no available room for food production. Even if there would be
with the advent of shelved production of algae, the demand on our existing water resources would exceed their capacity by a very
large margin. Also, because oil is still the best battery known (With the exception of Nuclear), there is no known substitute.
Think energy density. Not only does that energy medium have to exist, it must also be competitive in cost. Nobody will cut their
standard of living on purpose nor should they. Please also remember that technical innovation can never be legislated. Shame on
those that think otherwise.


As oils gets more expensive due to cheap oil having been extracted,
the equation may change and formerly expensive sources of energy will
become competitive.

i


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Steve Lusardi wrote:

Jim,
Your research is incomplete. The evidence is just below our border in Mexico.



Prior to NAFTA the Mexicans grew all their own corn. Then along came
NAFTA and after 10 years of flooding the Mexican market with cheap US
taxpayer-subsidized corn a million Mexican corn farmers lost their land
and livelihood. So now we have a million displaced Mexican peasants
(many of whom have no viable choice but to head to El Norte) and a
country that can no longer feed itself and you present that as a better
use of Americas corn than making ethanol.
That is so twisted and sick it is nauseating. You're like the guy who
murders his parents and then thinks he should be given a break because
he's an orphan.

If you consider the surface area required to harvest oil bearing produce that equates
to just 50% of our current petroleum consumption, there would be no available room for food production.


You just made that statistic up out of thin air, but nobody has said
anything about replacing 50% of petroleum with ethanol.

FYI, The US corn farmers currently supply about 10% of the fuel used in
spark ignition engines. Farmers grow that corn on 40% fewer acres than
what US farmers planted in corn in the 30's and 40's. Only 1 out of 3
bushels of corn harvest goes to ethanol plants and that still leaves
way too much corn left over to be used for mischief.

oil is still the best battery known (With the exception of Nuclear), there is no known substitute.


Money is the substitute for oil. The US imports 70% of its petroleum and
in exchange the US pays money. How long do you think that can continue?
Or do you advocate that we invade countries (that have oil resources)
and murder their leaders and steal their resources? Do you think that is
more moral than producing ethanol?
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On Nov 20, 9:25*am, Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim
...
I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia,
...
Bruce-


http://www.ru.org/ecology-and-enviro...restation.html
Dictators need those cash crops to pay off what they stole from
'development' loans.

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On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:

Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world.


Hogwash.

The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the
Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain.
And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed
their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and
still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the
worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty.

It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world
dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast
quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity,
heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo.
And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to
think that people should be morally outraged by that.

-jim

Your opinions are your opinions, and are not necessarily based on any
verifiable facts.

The vast majority of the poor countries that depend on corn as a
staple are net importers of corn, and when the world price of corn
goes up the temptation of the producers, as well as the misguided
policies of the IMF and world bank, combine to cause the domestic
production to be sold to the highest bidder (as a "cash crop" to pay
international debt-) which in this case may well be an ethanol
producer - so the poor of the country can no longer afford to buy what
little corn is left for domestic consumption.


You need to live and work in a third world country some time to
re-adjust your reality filters.

Yes, food aid improperly applied can and does destroy the livelihood
of many rural economies - but that is a totally different discussion.

Yes, corn sweeteners and corn-fed beef are both root causes of
obeisity in North America - but again, a different discussion.

Crops other than corn can be grown, and corn, like petroleum, can be
used more effectively as an industrial feedstock then as a fuel or
animal feed.

Corn as an ethanol feedstock is far from the best A0 - feedstock for
ethanol, and b) use of corn.
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wrote:

You need to live and work in a third world country some time to
re-adjust your reality filters.


I have lived in a third world country.



Yes, food aid improperly applied can and does destroy the livelihood
of many rural economies - but that is a totally different discussion.


You would like it it to be a different discussion. US Food aid has away
been intended to promote US Agriculture interests and open markets. Go
back to the 50's when these programs were started. Back then they were a
little more forth right in stating what it was they were up to.


Yes, corn sweeteners and corn-fed beef are both root causes of
obeisity in North America - but again, a different discussion.


You want it to be a different discussion but listen to the squawking
from the livestock producers and the soft drink producers if you believe
ethanol is not part of the discussion.


Crops other than corn can be grown, and corn, like petroleum, can be
used more effectively as an industrial feedstock then as a fuel or
animal feed.

Corn as an ethanol feedstock is far from the best A0 - feedstock for
ethanol, and b) use of corn.


Best by what measure? There is no other use of NO. 2 yellow corn that
even comes close to being as useful. Do you think making massive
quantities of animal fat is a better use? Do you thin making massive
amounts of sugar water (mostly consumed by children ) is putting corn to
good use? Do you think putting a million farmers in Oaxaca out of
business is a good use? Do you think propping up third world dictators
is a good use?

Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol.
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On Nov 20, 1:06*pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:


Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol.


Burn in pellet stoves.

Dan



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" wrote:

On Nov 20, 1:06 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:


Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol.


Burn in pellet stoves.



All right... name two.
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:56:39 -0600, Ignoramus3297
wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Steve Lusardi wrote:
Jim,
Your research is incomplete. The evidence is just below our border in Mexico. Please don't resort to throwing names like most
leftards do when presented with the facts. If you consider the surface area required to harvest oil bearing produce that equates
to just 50% of our current petroleum consumption, there would be no available room for food production. Even if there would be
with the advent of shelved production of algae, the demand on our existing water resources would exceed their capacity by a very
large margin. Also, because oil is still the best battery known (With the exception of Nuclear), there is no known substitute.
Think energy density. Not only does that energy medium have to exist, it must also be competitive in cost. Nobody will cut their
standard of living on purpose nor should they. Please also remember that technical innovation can never be legislated. Shame on
those that think otherwise.


As oils gets more expensive due to cheap oil having been extracted,
the equation may change and formerly expensive sources of energy will
become competitive.

i


Of course. In fact as the price of crude goes up it makes even
marginal sources of petroleum economical to produce :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:26:41 -0600, jim
wrote:

Bruce wrote:

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:

Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other
grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world.

Hogwash.

The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the
Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain.
And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed
their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and
still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the
worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty.

It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world
dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast
quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity,
heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo.
And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to
think that people should be morally outraged by that.

-jim


I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia,
while a large number of people are engaged in growing cereal grains
they are not growing corn and the cereal grain, rice, is far too
valuable as human food to be used for fuel and I use valuable in the
sense of generating cash, rather then any philosophical meaning. In
fact, in Thailand corn on the cob is sold almost as a "goody" right
along side the candy and cookies and to the best of my knowledge no
Thai recipes use corn in any form for food.

And, by the way, the rice growers of Asia have not been hurt by the
U.S.' agricultural policies as y'all don't grow good eating rice.

China and India are the two largest producers of rice in the world,
however they also consume the majority of their crops internally and
Thailand is the largest exporter of rice with about twice the sales of
the next largest and a little over three times that of the U.S..
Figures for the top rice exporters a

Thailand, 10 million tons (34.5% of global rice exports)
India, 4.8 million tons (16.5%)
Vietnam, 4.1 million tons (14.1%)
United States, 3.1 million tons (10.6%)
Pakistan, 1.8 million tons (6.3%)


And what has that got to do with anything I said?

I responded to this statement:

"Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price
of corn and other grains across the market place
denying food to the poor across the world."

So what is it you are trying to say? Are you saying US corn is irrelevant to world grain prices? The US ethanol market has no effect on
Thailand's rice farmers?

http://www.indexmundi.com/commoditie...ice&months=120

This article says it better than I can:

http://www.ase.tufts.edu/gdae/Pubs/r...genceMar10.pdf


The fact that US predatory farm exports keep millions of poor farmers poor is only half the story. The other half of the story is about
the millions that are forced out of the beseiged rural economy into shantytown slums that surround 3rd world cities.

I was responding to your thesis that American farm subsidizes were
causing a burden on the poor farmers, just as you say above. I was
pointing out that in Asia, with it's population of approximately
3,880,000,000 that it just isn't true.

The "slums that surround 3rd world cities" in Asia, which is largely
all 3rd world, are hardly due to the U.S. farm exports. In fact the
U.S. imports a substantial amount of farm products FROM these poor,
impoverished countries.

Your reference, above, isn't true, at least in the S.E. Asia nations
where the price of rice is controlled by the government and
surprisingly enough, very much in favor of the rice growers, to the
great dismay of the city folks.

Try
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...-exporter.html
for a report on rice prices from less political viewpoint.

When you make a statement that is totally wrong for some 40% of the
world's population it cast some doubts on the veracity of your entire
thesis.

Cheers,

Bruce
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 08:46:52 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Nov 20, 9:25*am, Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim
...
I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia,
...
Bruce-


http://www.ru.org/ecology-and-enviro...restation.html
Dictators need those cash crops to pay off what they stole from
'development' loans.


Yes, the problem, at least in SEA is the foreign demand for wood. In
fact President Soeharto, of Indonesia, once stated that, "if you are
upset about our cutting down the trees; stop buying them."

However, dictators paying off foreign development loans is a bit
exaggerated as most of the money from the lumber business flows into
the pockets of indigenous Chinese businessmen.

Cheers,

Bruce
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jim wrote:

" wrote:
On Nov 20, 1:06 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:

Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol.

Burn in pellet stoves.



All right... name two.


Feeding the cows?


--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site:
www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb



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?
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
...
jim wrote:

" wrote:
On Nov 20, 1:06 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:

Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol.
Burn in pellet stoves.



All right... name two.


Feeding the cows?


--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site:
www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb


Hot buttered pop corn.

Best Regards
Tom.

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On Nov 21, 2:10*am, CaveLamb wrote:
jim wrote:
...

http://www.grist.org/article/corn-ba...greenwash-ever
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CaveLamb wrote:

jim wrote:

" wrote:
On Nov 20, 1:06 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:

Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol.
Burn in pellet stoves.



All right... name two.


Feeding the cows?



Nope can't buy that one. First of all, after the ethanol is made from
the carbohydrates in corn the result is a high protein meal that is fed
to cows. But cows don't need to be fed corn at all. There is a
reasonable argument to be made that feeding cheap corn to livestock is
the root cause of the rampant obesity, heart disease and diabetes in the
US. How useful is that?
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Bruce wrote:

I was responding to your thesis that American farm subsidizes were
causing a burden on the poor farmers, just as you say above. I was
pointing out that in Asia, with it's population of approximately
3,880,000,000 that it just isn't true.


That really wasn't what I was saying. Food aid and subsidies was
injected into the discusion by someone else. But if you want to examine
Asian examples where direct aid has been harmful, look at the
Philippines and Pakistan. Both are agricultural basket cases due to US
aid. But the original subject was the effects of ethanol on world grain
prices. My point was that ethanol has rendered food aid and govt.
support programs to farmers irrelevant.

My thesis with respect to 3rd worlsd farmers was that cheap agricultural
commodity prices is what makes poor farmers poor. And that ethanol
production in the US is resulting in higher commodity prices which is
turning into a great boon to third world farmers - including rice
farmers in Thailand.

There is no mystery why third world farmers are poor. You too would be
poor if you were being paid 1960's wages. The price of cereal grains has
remained stagnant for many decades.

The price of rice has in the last few years broken through that ceiling
it has been stuck below for 50 years. And I guarantee you that if
ethanol production in the US ceased today the price of rice would drop
like a stone and rice farmers will again be stuck right back where they
have been historically. Now you can speculate why the price of grains
have remained stagnant for so many years, but there is little doubt that
the ethanol boom in the US is a significant new force that is moving
grain prices world wide from where they have been stuck for decades.


The "slums that surround 3rd world cities" in Asia, which is largely
all 3rd world, are hardly due to the U.S. farm exports. In fact the
U.S. imports a substantial amount of farm products FROM these poor,
impoverished countries.


Slums are very definitely due to destroyed rural economies, which is
is another way of saying farmers not making any money..

People don't come to the cities because they want to live in a slum -
they come because they have no alternative. Back in the 60's a farmer
could grow a bushel of corn and buy more than 10 gallons of fuel from
the proceeds. The price of everything else in the world steadily
increased while the price of agricultural commodities has hardly
changed. By 2005 a bushel of corn would just barely by one gallon of
fuel. But in the last 5 years that has all changed dramatically. Prices
of grains world wide have all broken through the ceiling they have been
stuck below for decades.

It doesn't matter if the farmer is growing rice, corn, wheat, beans or
barley the story is the same.




Your reference, above, isn't true, at least in the S.E. Asia nations
where the price of rice is controlled by the government and
surprisingly enough, very much in favor of the rice growers, to the
great dismay of the city folks.


"the price of rice is controlled by the government". That is a joke,
right?

The governments in Asia have about as much control over the price of
rice as they do over cyclones, typhoons and Tsunamis. Sure, they try to
do what is within their power to mitigate the effects of natural
disasters and world commodity prices. The production of ethanol in the
US has done more for the rice farmer in Thailand in the last few years
than all the decades of Thai government programs put together.



Try
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...-exporter.html
for a report on rice prices from less political viewpoint.


So explain the huge increase in rice prices around May of 2008. There
was no crop failure, reduced harvest or increased consumption at that
time. But it did coincide with a huge increase in the price of corn.


When you make a statement that is totally wrong for some 40% of the
world's population it cast some doubts on the veracity of your entire
thesis.



Except that I didn't make a statement that was wrong. The fact that
certain farmers in Asia are not as bad off as some farmers in Africa or
Central and S. America is really just splitting hairs.

-jim


Cheers,

Bruce

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