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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
Dear Everyone,
as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills and a lot of greenhouse gases. By upgrading your car to flex fuel, you will continue to be able to use oil. However you will also have the opportunity to use E85, that means more freedom of choice. The conversion cost is about 200-250 USD. By choosing ethanol, you choose local fuel production, which means labour for farmers, labour for enginneers and workers in the ethanol plant, labour for transportation. Moreover you also help for indirect labour. Since the money stays in your country, this money will turn and produce indirect labour. Since the farmer will gain your additional fuel money, he will buy other things (labour is again needed for their production), which in case of oil the oil-Sheikhs or their people would do. That ethanol production increases the food prices is also not totally right, first there is a by-product called "distillers dried grains with solubles", which is used as feed for livestock, that is also nothing else than food. Moreover, by using ethanol, you put pressure on oil prices, which has also an important effect on food prices. You also give your money for more research (again labour), which will yield in higher efficiency of production and alternative production methods like cellulosic ethanol, which will change the whole equation. Again in case of oil this money would be spent for oil rigs, oil- infrastructure, but also for weapons to defend the oil. By using ethanol, you produce less CO2, since it is produced by corn, which actually consumed the CO2 in the air for its growing. The more people use ethanol, the higher the efficiencies will come for production (similar to solar cells). The prices will go further down, and much less CO2 will be produced during production in the plant. Do you know that the production efficiencies already improved 30% ?* Another reason for using ethanol is that oil prices will come up again, when the barrel price of 150 USD is back you will be very happy to have your vehicle converted. The conversion also increases the value of your vehicle. Yours sincerely. Sources: *http://brownfieldagnews.com/2010/09/...on-efficiency- improves/ |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Nov 19, 1:18*pm, "........"
wrote: Dear Everyone, as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills and a lot of greenhouse gases. By upgrading your car to flex fuel, you will continue to be able to use oil. However you will also have the opportunity to use E85, that means more freedom of choice. The conversion cost is about 200-250 USD. By choosing ethanol, you choose local fuel production, which means labour for farmers, labour for enginneers and workers in the ethanol plant, labour for transportation. Moreover you also help for indirect labour. Since the money stays in your country, this money will turn and produce indirect labour. Since the farmer will gain your additional fuel money, he will buy other things (labour is again needed for their production), which in case of oil the oil-Sheikhs or their people would do. That ethanol production increases the food prices is also not totally right, first there is a by-product called "distillers dried grains with solubles", which is used as feed for livestock, that is also nothing else than food. Moreover, by using ethanol, you put pressure on oil prices, which has also an important effect on food prices. You also give your money for more research (again labour), which will yield in higher efficiency of production and alternative production methods like cellulosic ethanol, which will change the whole equation. Again in case of oil this money would be spent for oil rigs, oil- infrastructure, but also for weapons to defend the oil. By using ethanol, you produce less CO2, since it is produced by corn, which actually consumed the CO2 in the air for its growing. The more people use ethanol, the higher the efficiencies will come for production (similar to solar cells). The prices will go further down, and much less CO2 will be produced during production in the plant. Do you know that the production efficiencies already improved 30% ?* Another reason for using ethanol is that oil prices will come up again, when the barrel price of 150 USD is back you will be very happy to have your vehicle converted. The conversion also increases the value of your vehicle. Yours sincerely. Sources: *http://brownfieldagnews.com/2010/09/...on-efficiency- improves/ All right Mr. Know-it all. How do I convert my 1983 Mercedes 300SD to ethanol? Eh??? What no answer? where did you go? Paul |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
What an idiot....Don't you just love it when these guys open their uninformed mouths. The addition of ethyl alcohol in gasoline
make the fuel less energetic (lower BTUs by volume)(less miles per gallon) , makes the fuel more hygroscopic (water absorption from air) and it rots rubber and other seal materials. Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. This is what happens when we allow green, illiterate politicians this kind of authority. When the ethanol generation process can economically produce ethanol using waste vegetation and the cost of this fuel becomes less than gasoline by at least 10% to compensate for the lower mileage, this fuel could be viable. Until then, avoid it. Steve "KD7HB" wrote in message ... On Nov 19, 1:18 pm, "........" wrote: Dear Everyone, as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills and a lot of greenhouse gases. By upgrading your car to flex fuel, you will continue to be able to use oil. However you will also have the opportunity to use E85, that means more freedom of choice. The conversion cost is about 200-250 USD. By choosing ethanol, you choose local fuel production, which means labour for farmers, labour for enginneers and workers in the ethanol plant, labour for transportation. Moreover you also help for indirect labour. Since the money stays in your country, this money will turn and produce indirect labour. Since the farmer will gain your additional fuel money, he will buy other things (labour is again needed for their production), which in case of oil the oil-Sheikhs or their people would do. That ethanol production increases the food prices is also not totally right, first there is a by-product called "distillers dried grains with solubles", which is used as feed for livestock, that is also nothing else than food. Moreover, by using ethanol, you put pressure on oil prices, which has also an important effect on food prices. You also give your money for more research (again labour), which will yield in higher efficiency of production and alternative production methods like cellulosic ethanol, which will change the whole equation. Again in case of oil this money would be spent for oil rigs, oil- infrastructure, but also for weapons to defend the oil. By using ethanol, you produce less CO2, since it is produced by corn, which actually consumed the CO2 in the air for its growing. The more people use ethanol, the higher the efficiencies will come for production (similar to solar cells). The prices will go further down, and much less CO2 will be produced during production in the plant. Do you know that the production efficiencies already improved 30% ?* Another reason for using ethanol is that oil prices will come up again, when the barrel price of 150 USD is back you will be very happy to have your vehicle converted. The conversion also increases the value of your vehicle. Yours sincerely. Sources: *http://brownfieldagnews.com/2010/09/...on-efficiency- improves/ All right Mr. Know-it all. How do I convert my 1983 Mercedes 300SD to ethanol? Eh??? What no answer? where did you go? Paul |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
Steve Lusardi wrote:
Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. Hogwash. The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain. And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty. It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity, heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo. And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to think that people should be morally outraged by that. -jim |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
"jim" wrote in message .. . Steve Lusardi wrote: Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. Hogwash. The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain. And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty. It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity, heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo. And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to think that people should be morally outraged by that. -jim I think you may want to do a little more research jim. You will also find that old growth virgin forests are also being cleared to grow palms for oil. The harm done in clearing is way more than the "good" done by using the "renewable" fuel. |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
Dennis wrote:
"jim" wrote in message .. . Steve Lusardi wrote: Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. Hogwash. The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain. And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty. It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity, heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo. And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to think that people should be morally outraged by that. -jim I think you may want to do a little more research jim. You will also find that old growth virgin forests are also being cleared to grow palms for oil. The harm done in clearing is way more than the "good" done by using the "renewable" fuel. What has that got to do with anything I said? If it were made illegal to put ethanol in US autos would that make any difference as to how many old growth trees are replaced by palm oil trees. |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim
wrote: Steve Lusardi wrote: Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. Hogwash. The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain. And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty. It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity, heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo. And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to think that people should be morally outraged by that. -jim I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia, while a large number of people are engaged in growing cereal grains they are not growing corn and the cereal grain, rice, is far too valuable as human food to be used for fuel and I use valuable in the sense of generating cash, rather then any philosophical meaning. In fact, in Thailand corn on the cob is sold almost as a "goody" right along side the candy and cookies and to the best of my knowledge no Thai recipes use corn in any form for food. And, by the way, the rice growers of Asia have not been hurt by the U.S.' agricultural policies as y'all don't grow good eating rice. China and India are the two largest producers of rice in the world, however they also consume the majority of their crops internally and Thailand is the largest exporter of rice with about twice the sales of the next largest and a little over three times that of the U.S.. Figures for the top rice exporters a Thailand, 10 million tons (34.5% of global rice exports) India, 4.8 million tons (16.5%) Vietnam, 4.1 million tons (14.1%) United States, 3.1 million tons (10.6%) Pakistan, 1.8 million tons (6.3%) Cheers, Bruce |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
Jim,
Your research is incomplete. The evidence is just below our border in Mexico. Please don't resort to throwing names like most leftards do when presented with the facts. If you consider the surface area required to harvest oil bearing produce that equates to just 50% of our current petroleum consumption, there would be no available room for food production. Even if there would be with the advent of shelved production of algae, the demand on our existing water resources would exceed their capacity by a very large margin. Also, because oil is still the best battery known (With the exception of Nuclear), there is no known substitute. Think energy density. Not only does that energy medium have to exist, it must also be competitive in cost. Nobody will cut their standard of living on purpose nor should they. Please also remember that technical innovation can never be legislated. Shame on those that think otherwise. Steve "jim" wrote in message .. . Steve Lusardi wrote: Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. Hogwash. The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain. And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty. It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity, heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo. And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to think that people should be morally outraged by that. -jim |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim wrote: Steve Lusardi wrote: Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. Hogwash. The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain. And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty. It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity, heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo. And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to think that people should be morally outraged by that. -jim I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia, while a large number of people are engaged in growing cereal grains they are not growing corn and the cereal grain, rice, is far too valuable as human food to be used for fuel and I use valuable in the sense of generating cash, rather then any philosophical meaning. In fact, in Thailand corn on the cob is sold almost as a "goody" right along side the candy and cookies and to the best of my knowledge no Thai recipes use corn in any form for food. And, by the way, the rice growers of Asia have not been hurt by the U.S.' agricultural policies as y'all don't grow good eating rice. China and India are the two largest producers of rice in the world, however they also consume the majority of their crops internally and Thailand is the largest exporter of rice with about twice the sales of the next largest and a little over three times that of the U.S.. Figures for the top rice exporters a Thailand, 10 million tons (34.5% of global rice exports) India, 4.8 million tons (16.5%) Vietnam, 4.1 million tons (14.1%) United States, 3.1 million tons (10.6%) Pakistan, 1.8 million tons (6.3%) And what has that got to do with anything I said? I responded to this statement: "Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world." So what is it you are trying to say? Are you saying US corn is irrelevant to world grain prices? The US ethanol market has no effect on Thailand's rice farmers? http://www.indexmundi.com/commoditie...ice&months=120 This article says it better than I can: http://www.ase.tufts.edu/gdae/Pubs/r...genceMar10.pdf The fact that US predatory farm exports keep millions of poor farmers poor is only half the story. The other half of the story is about the millions that are forced out of the beseiged rural economy into shantytown slums that surround 3rd world cities. Cheers, Bruce |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On 2010-11-20, Steve Lusardi wrote:
Jim, Your research is incomplete. The evidence is just below our border in Mexico. Please don't resort to throwing names like most leftards do when presented with the facts. If you consider the surface area required to harvest oil bearing produce that equates to just 50% of our current petroleum consumption, there would be no available room for food production. Even if there would be with the advent of shelved production of algae, the demand on our existing water resources would exceed their capacity by a very large margin. Also, because oil is still the best battery known (With the exception of Nuclear), there is no known substitute. Think energy density. Not only does that energy medium have to exist, it must also be competitive in cost. Nobody will cut their standard of living on purpose nor should they. Please also remember that technical innovation can never be legislated. Shame on those that think otherwise. As oils gets more expensive due to cheap oil having been extracted, the equation may change and formerly expensive sources of energy will become competitive. i |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
Steve Lusardi wrote: Jim, Your research is incomplete. The evidence is just below our border in Mexico. Prior to NAFTA the Mexicans grew all their own corn. Then along came NAFTA and after 10 years of flooding the Mexican market with cheap US taxpayer-subsidized corn a million Mexican corn farmers lost their land and livelihood. So now we have a million displaced Mexican peasants (many of whom have no viable choice but to head to El Norte) and a country that can no longer feed itself and you present that as a better use of Americas corn than making ethanol. That is so twisted and sick it is nauseating. You're like the guy who murders his parents and then thinks he should be given a break because he's an orphan. If you consider the surface area required to harvest oil bearing produce that equates to just 50% of our current petroleum consumption, there would be no available room for food production. You just made that statistic up out of thin air, but nobody has said anything about replacing 50% of petroleum with ethanol. FYI, The US corn farmers currently supply about 10% of the fuel used in spark ignition engines. Farmers grow that corn on 40% fewer acres than what US farmers planted in corn in the 30's and 40's. Only 1 out of 3 bushels of corn harvest goes to ethanol plants and that still leaves way too much corn left over to be used for mischief. oil is still the best battery known (With the exception of Nuclear), there is no known substitute. Money is the substitute for oil. The US imports 70% of its petroleum and in exchange the US pays money. How long do you think that can continue? Or do you advocate that we invade countries (that have oil resources) and murder their leaders and steal their resources? Do you think that is more moral than producing ethanol? |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Nov 20, 9:25*am, Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim ... I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia, ... Bruce- http://www.ru.org/ecology-and-enviro...restation.html Dictators need those cash crops to pay off what they stole from 'development' loans. |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim
wrote: Steve Lusardi wrote: Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. Hogwash. The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain. And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty. It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity, heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo. And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to think that people should be morally outraged by that. -jim Your opinions are your opinions, and are not necessarily based on any verifiable facts. The vast majority of the poor countries that depend on corn as a staple are net importers of corn, and when the world price of corn goes up the temptation of the producers, as well as the misguided policies of the IMF and world bank, combine to cause the domestic production to be sold to the highest bidder (as a "cash crop" to pay international debt-) which in this case may well be an ethanol producer - so the poor of the country can no longer afford to buy what little corn is left for domestic consumption. You need to live and work in a third world country some time to re-adjust your reality filters. Yes, food aid improperly applied can and does destroy the livelihood of many rural economies - but that is a totally different discussion. Yes, corn sweeteners and corn-fed beef are both root causes of obeisity in North America - but again, a different discussion. Crops other than corn can be grown, and corn, like petroleum, can be used more effectively as an industrial feedstock then as a fuel or animal feed. Corn as an ethanol feedstock is far from the best A0 - feedstock for ethanol, and b) use of corn. |
#14
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
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#15
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Nov 20, 1:06*pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:
Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol. Burn in pellet stoves. Dan |
#16
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
" wrote: On Nov 20, 1:06 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote: Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol. Burn in pellet stoves. All right... name two. |
#17
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:56:39 -0600, Ignoramus3297
wrote: On 2010-11-20, Steve Lusardi wrote: Jim, Your research is incomplete. The evidence is just below our border in Mexico. Please don't resort to throwing names like most leftards do when presented with the facts. If you consider the surface area required to harvest oil bearing produce that equates to just 50% of our current petroleum consumption, there would be no available room for food production. Even if there would be with the advent of shelved production of algae, the demand on our existing water resources would exceed their capacity by a very large margin. Also, because oil is still the best battery known (With the exception of Nuclear), there is no known substitute. Think energy density. Not only does that energy medium have to exist, it must also be competitive in cost. Nobody will cut their standard of living on purpose nor should they. Please also remember that technical innovation can never be legislated. Shame on those that think otherwise. As oils gets more expensive due to cheap oil having been extracted, the equation may change and formerly expensive sources of energy will become competitive. i Of course. In fact as the price of crude goes up it makes even marginal sources of petroleum economical to produce :-) Cheers, Bruce |
#18
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:26:41 -0600, jim
wrote: Bruce wrote: On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim wrote: Steve Lusardi wrote: Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world. Hogwash. The US ethanol boom is the best thing that has happened to the poor acoss the world. The fact is, that the vast majority of the Worlds poor live in 3rd world rural economies. And do you know what the vast majority of the poor do for a living? They grow grain. And for the last 60 they have been turned into "the poor across the world" because of US predatory Ag policies that has destroyed their livelihood. Even India and China which today have booming economies, the majority of the citizens still live on farms and still grow grain for a living. The current rising world grain prices represent the first opportunity since WWII for millions of the worlds citizens to raise themselves out subsistence poverty. It's not as if anything good has been done with corn in the past. What isn't used as part of a foreign policy to prop up 3rd world dictatorships and destroy the livelihood of the millions who are living in rural economies is used mostly to produce vast quantities of animal fat in cows, pigs and chickens. I mean look around The US population is suffering from an epidemic of obesity, heart desease and diabetes. There are millions of tons of corn sweetners peddled to US children in schools. That is the status-quo. And yes ethanol is a very definite threat to that status-quo, but you have to be a pervert with a twisted sense of morality to think that people should be morally outraged by that. -jim I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia, while a large number of people are engaged in growing cereal grains they are not growing corn and the cereal grain, rice, is far too valuable as human food to be used for fuel and I use valuable in the sense of generating cash, rather then any philosophical meaning. In fact, in Thailand corn on the cob is sold almost as a "goody" right along side the candy and cookies and to the best of my knowledge no Thai recipes use corn in any form for food. And, by the way, the rice growers of Asia have not been hurt by the U.S.' agricultural policies as y'all don't grow good eating rice. China and India are the two largest producers of rice in the world, however they also consume the majority of their crops internally and Thailand is the largest exporter of rice with about twice the sales of the next largest and a little over three times that of the U.S.. Figures for the top rice exporters a Thailand, 10 million tons (34.5% of global rice exports) India, 4.8 million tons (16.5%) Vietnam, 4.1 million tons (14.1%) United States, 3.1 million tons (10.6%) Pakistan, 1.8 million tons (6.3%) And what has that got to do with anything I said? I responded to this statement: "Worst of all, ethanol use as fuels raises the price of corn and other grains across the market place denying food to the poor across the world." So what is it you are trying to say? Are you saying US corn is irrelevant to world grain prices? The US ethanol market has no effect on Thailand's rice farmers? http://www.indexmundi.com/commoditie...ice&months=120 This article says it better than I can: http://www.ase.tufts.edu/gdae/Pubs/r...genceMar10.pdf The fact that US predatory farm exports keep millions of poor farmers poor is only half the story. The other half of the story is about the millions that are forced out of the beseiged rural economy into shantytown slums that surround 3rd world cities. I was responding to your thesis that American farm subsidizes were causing a burden on the poor farmers, just as you say above. I was pointing out that in Asia, with it's population of approximately 3,880,000,000 that it just isn't true. The "slums that surround 3rd world cities" in Asia, which is largely all 3rd world, are hardly due to the U.S. farm exports. In fact the U.S. imports a substantial amount of farm products FROM these poor, impoverished countries. Your reference, above, isn't true, at least in the S.E. Asia nations where the price of rice is controlled by the government and surprisingly enough, very much in favor of the rice growers, to the great dismay of the city folks. Try http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...-exporter.html for a report on rice prices from less political viewpoint. When you make a statement that is totally wrong for some 40% of the world's population it cast some doubts on the veracity of your entire thesis. Cheers, Bruce |
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 08:46:52 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote: On Nov 20, 9:25*am, Bruce wrote: On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 07:47:48 -0600, jim ... I think that you should review your sources of information as in Asia, ... Bruce- http://www.ru.org/ecology-and-enviro...restation.html Dictators need those cash crops to pay off what they stole from 'development' loans. Yes, the problem, at least in SEA is the foreign demand for wood. In fact President Soeharto, of Indonesia, once stated that, "if you are upset about our cutting down the trees; stop buying them." However, dictators paying off foreign development loans is a bit exaggerated as most of the money from the lumber business flows into the pockets of indigenous Chinese businessmen. Cheers, Bruce |
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
jim wrote:
" wrote: On Nov 20, 1:06 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote: Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol. Burn in pellet stoves. All right... name two. Feeding the cows? -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
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"CaveLamb" wrote in message ... jim wrote: " wrote: On Nov 20, 1:06 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote: Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol. Burn in pellet stoves. All right... name two. Feeding the cows? -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb Hot buttered pop corn. Best Regards Tom. |
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
On Nov 21, 2:10*am, CaveLamb wrote:
jim wrote: ... http://www.grist.org/article/corn-ba...greenwash-ever |
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
CaveLamb wrote: jim wrote: " wrote: On Nov 20, 1:06 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote: Name me one good use for this corn if it were not made into ethanol. Burn in pellet stoves. All right... name two. Feeding the cows? Nope can't buy that one. First of all, after the ethanol is made from the carbohydrates in corn the result is a high protein meal that is fed to cows. But cows don't need to be fed corn at all. There is a reasonable argument to be made that feeding cheap corn to livestock is the root cause of the rampant obesity, heart disease and diabetes in the US. How useful is that? |
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Why you should convert your vehicle to flex fuel
Bruce wrote: I was responding to your thesis that American farm subsidizes were causing a burden on the poor farmers, just as you say above. I was pointing out that in Asia, with it's population of approximately 3,880,000,000 that it just isn't true. That really wasn't what I was saying. Food aid and subsidies was injected into the discusion by someone else. But if you want to examine Asian examples where direct aid has been harmful, look at the Philippines and Pakistan. Both are agricultural basket cases due to US aid. But the original subject was the effects of ethanol on world grain prices. My point was that ethanol has rendered food aid and govt. support programs to farmers irrelevant. My thesis with respect to 3rd worlsd farmers was that cheap agricultural commodity prices is what makes poor farmers poor. And that ethanol production in the US is resulting in higher commodity prices which is turning into a great boon to third world farmers - including rice farmers in Thailand. There is no mystery why third world farmers are poor. You too would be poor if you were being paid 1960's wages. The price of cereal grains has remained stagnant for many decades. The price of rice has in the last few years broken through that ceiling it has been stuck below for 50 years. And I guarantee you that if ethanol production in the US ceased today the price of rice would drop like a stone and rice farmers will again be stuck right back where they have been historically. Now you can speculate why the price of grains have remained stagnant for so many years, but there is little doubt that the ethanol boom in the US is a significant new force that is moving grain prices world wide from where they have been stuck for decades. The "slums that surround 3rd world cities" in Asia, which is largely all 3rd world, are hardly due to the U.S. farm exports. In fact the U.S. imports a substantial amount of farm products FROM these poor, impoverished countries. Slums are very definitely due to destroyed rural economies, which is is another way of saying farmers not making any money.. People don't come to the cities because they want to live in a slum - they come because they have no alternative. Back in the 60's a farmer could grow a bushel of corn and buy more than 10 gallons of fuel from the proceeds. The price of everything else in the world steadily increased while the price of agricultural commodities has hardly changed. By 2005 a bushel of corn would just barely by one gallon of fuel. But in the last 5 years that has all changed dramatically. Prices of grains world wide have all broken through the ceiling they have been stuck below for decades. It doesn't matter if the farmer is growing rice, corn, wheat, beans or barley the story is the same. Your reference, above, isn't true, at least in the S.E. Asia nations where the price of rice is controlled by the government and surprisingly enough, very much in favor of the rice growers, to the great dismay of the city folks. "the price of rice is controlled by the government". That is a joke, right? The governments in Asia have about as much control over the price of rice as they do over cyclones, typhoons and Tsunamis. Sure, they try to do what is within their power to mitigate the effects of natural disasters and world commodity prices. The production of ethanol in the US has done more for the rice farmer in Thailand in the last few years than all the decades of Thai government programs put together. Try http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...-exporter.html for a report on rice prices from less political viewpoint. So explain the huge increase in rice prices around May of 2008. There was no crop failure, reduced harvest or increased consumption at that time. But it did coincide with a huge increase in the price of corn. When you make a statement that is totally wrong for some 40% of the world's population it cast some doubts on the veracity of your entire thesis. Except that I didn't make a statement that was wrong. The fact that certain farmers in Asia are not as bad off as some farmers in Africa or Central and S. America is really just splitting hairs. -jim Cheers, Bruce |
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