I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i

On 11/18/2010 05:00 PM, Ignoramus5827 wrote:
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

The larger the group, the sheerer the idiocy.

But in this case, I seem to recall comments about the union folks
sabotaging product -- if I bought piles and piles of tools that may or
may not have had quality problems, but had my new product line name
plastered all over them, I might make sure they were melted down, too.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 11/18/2010 5:00 PM, Ignoramus5827 wrote:
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i


The anti government people need to learn a lesson from this. This is a
"business" decision. We all hear from the right wing constantly how
great private enterprise is and how inefficient and wasteful the
government is. Well, that is a crock, of course. If you really looked at
business practices around the country and the world you would see that
business is rarely, if ever, better than government at doing things.
Business does a terrible job all the time. You just don't see it because
when business does poorly they go out of business, but before they do
they do whatever they do very badly.

You would think that if a business has a good product they couldn't
screw it up and go bankrupt but it happens all the time. My sister used
to work for the Simmons mattress company. They made the Beauty Rest
mattress that was as good as anything on the market. But they did a
lousy job and they went down. So when you see this kind of idiotic thing
done by a business just remember that it isn't an anomaly. It happens
all the time. But you don't have an anti business group publicizing it
like you do when it's the government doing things badly, which they can
do too.

Hawke

Ignoramus5827 wrote:

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

Sadly this has been going on forever in the US.

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

I remember reading an editorial about 30 years ago
urging US manufacturers to smash and scrap obsolete
machine tools so they wouldn't end up in China making
stuff that competed with us. Guess that didn't work
so well.

"Ignoramus5827" wrote in message
...
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i

They likely determined that they could get a larger tax deduction from
scrapping inventory than from selling it at auction. When a company scraps
valuable inventory, the IRS requires near iron-clad documentation it was
really scrapped. This has been going on in the US for ages.

It is also possible that stuff was in-process at the time of shut down and
no one knows if it was heat-treated, plated or inspected.

On 2010-11-19, anorton wrote:

"Ignoramus5827" wrote in message
...
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i

They likely determined that they could get a larger tax deduction from
scrapping inventory than from selling it at auction. When a company scraps
valuable inventory, the IRS requires near iron-clad documentation it was
really scrapped. This has been going on in the US for ages.

It is also possible that stuff was in-process at the time of shut down and
no one knows if it was heat-treated, plated or inspected.


Could be a combination of both.

i

On Nov 18, 9:11*pm, "anorton"
wrote:
"Ignoramus5827" wrote in message

...



I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i

They likely determined that they could get a larger tax deduction from
scrapping inventory than from selling it at auction. *When a company scraps
valuable inventory, the IRS requires near iron-clad documentation it was
really scrapped. *This has been going on in the US for ages.

It is also possible that stuff was in-process at the time of shut down and
no one knows if it was heat-treated, plated or inspected.

According to fox news, there are no tax deductions, only government
subsidies.

(They claimed that private donations to NPR were a government subsidy
since the donator could write off the donation)


Dave

Ignoramus5827 wrote:

I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

When I was in the USAF, every year at budget time, we had to throw away
thousands of dollars' worth of spare parts, just so they could order new
and not lose their budget allocation for the next year.

It was a virtual goldmine for hobbyists. ;-) The boss would say, "All this
stuff has to go," but looked the other way when you caught stuff on the
way to the dumpster. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Jim Stewart wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

Our administration tried to totally destroy it recently but Congress put a stop to that.

If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On 2010-11-19, Wes wrote:
If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

On 11/18/2010 05:30 PM, Hawke wrote:
On 11/18/2010 5:00 PM, Ignoramus5827 wrote:
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i


The anti government people need to learn a lesson from this. This is a
"business" decision. We all hear from the right wing constantly how
great private enterprise is and how inefficient and wasteful the
government is. Well, that is a crock, of course.

Actually, "of course", it's half a crock -- since _any_ big organization
is inefficient and wasteful, it's a pretty short leap to come to the
conclusion that government, business and your friends the unions are
_all_ inefficient and wasteful.

If you really looked at
business practices around the country and the world you would see that
business is rarely, if ever, better than government at doing things.
Business does a terrible job all the time. You just don't see it because
when business does poorly they go out of business, but before they do
they do whatever they do very badly.

Don't forget that neither businesses nor unions need to disclose what
the hell they're doing.

You would think that if a business has a good product they couldn't
screw it up and go bankrupt but it happens all the time. My sister used
to work for the Simmons mattress company. They made the Beauty Rest
mattress that was as good as anything on the market. But they did a
lousy job and they went down. So when you see this kind of idiotic thing
done by a business just remember that it isn't an anomaly. It happens
all the time. But you don't have an anti business group publicizing it
like you do when it's the government doing things badly, which they can
do too.

You're not mentioning the times when it's unions that drive their
associated businesses, or their whole industries, into the ground.
Business people are often capable of driving companies under all by
themselves, but they often have help, even so. In fact, you should read
some of the articles that Iggy linked to in previous posts -- it sounds
like the union at SK should be getting a "job well done!" sticker from
China right about now.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 11/18/2010 05:38 PM, Jim Stewart wrote:
Ignoramus5827 wrote:

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

Sadly this has been going on forever in the US.

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

The most cringe-worthy one for me is the Lockheed "Little Dipper".
Lockheed decided to hedge their bets after WWII, and developed a nifty
little two-place low wing general aviation plane. Private aviation
slumped instead of booming, and the cold war made missiles an on-going
profitable concern, so they canceled the program.

They broke the prototype up for scrap, over the screams of protest from
numerous engineers who wanted to take it home.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 2010-11-19, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 11/18/2010 05:30 PM, Hawke wrote:
On 11/18/2010 5:00 PM, Ignoramus5827 wrote:
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i


The anti government people need to learn a lesson from this. This is a
"business" decision. We all hear from the right wing constantly how
great private enterprise is and how inefficient and wasteful the
government is. Well, that is a crock, of course.

Actually, "of course", it's half a crock -- since _any_ big organization
is inefficient and wasteful, it's a pretty short leap to come to the
conclusion that government, business and your friends the unions are
_all_ inefficient and wasteful.

I am somewhat buying the arguments advanced here, that state that
Ideal Industries was not sure of the quality and completeness of the
inventory, and did not want that stuff to hit the market and tarnish
the SK brand name that Ideal intends to revive.

If that is indeed why Ideal is melting this stuff down, I have to say
that I applaud that decision and it is most honest, if painful, and
not a dumb wasteful decision.

I have seen plenty of inefficiency here, but it is still a far more
efficient place than Soviet Union, were as I said, "not giving a ****"
was the new religion.

Much of the Chinese industrial success is based on two factors, one is
that their workforce agrees to work for little pay in appalling
conditions, and another, that they are willing to trash their
environment in order to keep that workforce employed.

I personally expect that degradation of their environment will be a
strong limiting factor in their future growth as a nation.

i

On 11/19/2010 04:30 PM, Ignoramus16986 wrote:
On 2010-11-19, Tim wrote:
On 11/18/2010 05:30 PM, Hawke wrote:
On 11/18/2010 5:00 PM, Ignoramus5827 wrote:
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i


The anti government people need to learn a lesson from this. This is a
"business" decision. We all hear from the right wing constantly how
great private enterprise is and how inefficient and wasteful the
government is. Well, that is a crock, of course.

Actually, "of course", it's half a crock -- since _any_ big organization
is inefficient and wasteful, it's a pretty short leap to come to the
conclusion that government, business and your friends the unions are
_all_ inefficient and wasteful.

I am somewhat buying the arguments advanced here, that state that
Ideal Industries was not sure of the quality and completeness of the
inventory, and did not want that stuff to hit the market and tarnish
the SK brand name that Ideal intends to revive.

If that is indeed why Ideal is melting this stuff down, I have to say
that I applaud that decision and it is most honest, if painful, and
not a dumb wasteful decision.

I have seen plenty of inefficiency here, but it is still a far more
efficient place than Soviet Union, were as I said, "not giving a ****"
was the new religion.

Much of the Chinese industrial success is based on two factors, one is
that their workforce agrees to work for little pay in appalling
conditions, and another, that they are willing to trash their
environment in order to keep that workforce employed.

I personally expect that degradation of their environment will be a
strong limiting factor in their future growth as a nation.

The continued willingness of their workforce to agree to little pay and
appalling conditions is cracking around the edges, too -- China seems to
be turning into a Russian-style post-communist oligarchy, with fewer
personal freedoms and lots of lip service to "communism".

It's going to be hell if they blow up, instead of fading or quietly burning.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 11/19/2010 4:30 PM, Ignoramus16986 wrote:
On 2010-11-19, Tim wrote:
On 11/18/2010 05:30 PM, Hawke wrote:
On 11/18/2010 5:00 PM, Ignoramus5827 wrote:
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

The manager of SK tool personally accompanies the dumpster to Gary,
Indiana, to make sure that the tools are all dumped into the scrap
furnace and not pilfered on the way.

Pretty much everyone over there is shocked at this. I was, too. It
reminded of of the Soviet Union, where that sort of waste abounded and
"not giving a ****" was the new religion. The only difference was that
in the Soviet Union, all that stuff would certainly be stolen there,
and here I am sure that everyone honestly played their part and
everything that was supposed to be destroyed, would be destroyed.

i


The anti government people need to learn a lesson from this. This is a
"business" decision. We all hear from the right wing constantly how
great private enterprise is and how inefficient and wasteful the
government is. Well, that is a crock, of course.

Actually, "of course", it's half a crock -- since _any_ big organization
is inefficient and wasteful, it's a pretty short leap to come to the
conclusion that government, business and your friends the unions are
_all_ inefficient and wasteful.

I am somewhat buying the arguments advanced here, that state that
Ideal Industries was not sure of the quality and completeness of the
inventory, and did not want that stuff to hit the market and tarnish
the SK brand name that Ideal intends to revive.

If that is indeed why Ideal is melting this stuff down, I have to say
that I applaud that decision and it is most honest, if painful, and
not a dumb wasteful decision.

I have seen plenty of inefficiency here, but it is still a far more
efficient place than Soviet Union, were as I said, "not giving a ****"
was the new religion.

Much of the Chinese industrial success is based on two factors, one is
that their workforce agrees to work for little pay in appalling
conditions, and another, that they are willing to trash their
environment in order to keep that workforce employed.

I personally expect that degradation of their environment will be a
strong limiting factor in their future growth as a nation.

i


It's like the old saying; what goes up must come down. It's true that
China has been riding high for quite a while now. But when you start
from where they did you really have only one way to go. China has been
real smart too and has used everything possible to its advantage like
it's huge population, its efficient government, the way it devalues its
currency, the way it has stolen technology from the west, and how it has
dumped cheap goods on the west to steal market share. But it can't go on
forever and eventually they are going to have a lot of problems. China
has now passed Japan as the number two economy in the world. Japan's a
good example. It used to be Japan that could do no wrong and was kicking
ass. That's over now. So it will be with China too. It's going at a boil
now but it won't be able to sustain that kind of growth. Usually when a
country grows too much and too quickly things go downhill. It's the same
with businesses. Anyone remember Krispy Cream Donuts? They grew like
wildfire and just as quickly burned out completely. Too bad that
happened. Those fresh glazed donuts they used to make were really good.
The store in my town closed permanently. Bummer.

Hawke

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:29:38 -0500, Wes
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

Our administration tried to totally destroy it recently but Congress put a stop to that.

If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

Wes

Id be happy to destroy a carload as well

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On 11/19/2010 03:29 PM, Wes wrote:
Jim wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

Our administration tried to totally destroy it recently but Congress put a stop to that.

If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

What do you want to bet that at some time in the past some enterprising
businessman got the bright idea of buying surplus ammo and selling it
back to the government as new?

I may be 100% civilian, but one of the points that I've learned from
histories is that it's hard to win a war with munitions that don't work
when you need them.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim Wescott wrote:

What do you want to bet that at some time in the past some enterprising
businessman got the bright idea of buying surplus ammo and selling it
back to the government as new?

I may be 100% civilian, but one of the points that I've learned from
histories is that it's hard to win a war with munitions that don't work
when you need them.

I have no idea but with munitions you don't want them to over or under perform. Either
one can get people killed.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:44:43 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 11/19/2010 03:29 PM, Wes wrote:
Jim wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

Our administration tried to totally destroy it recently but Congress put a stop to that.

If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

What do you want to bet that at some time in the past some enterprising
businessman got the bright idea of buying surplus ammo and selling it
back to the government as new?

I may be 100% civilian, but one of the points that I've learned from
histories is that it's hard to win a war with munitions that don't work
when you need them.


You may be joking but it does happen. I remember being a surplus
electronic place in L.A. and hearing the owner tell another chap how
he had bought a load of a some sort of electronic component from a
military salvage yard and later responding to a bid off to supply for
exactly the same item. Said he made 100% profit :-)
Cheers,

Bruce

On 11/20/2010 05:27 PM, Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:44:43 -0800, Tim
wrote:

On 11/19/2010 03:29 PM, Wes wrote:
Jim wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

Our administration tried to totally destroy it recently but Congress put a stop to that.

If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

What do you want to bet that at some time in the past some enterprising
businessman got the bright idea of buying surplus ammo and selling it
back to the government as new?

I may be 100% civilian, but one of the points that I've learned from
histories is that it's hard to win a war with munitions that don't work
when you need them.


You may be joking but it does happen. I remember being a surplus
electronic place in L.A. and hearing the owner tell another chap how
he had bought a load of a some sort of electronic component from a
military salvage yard and later responding to a bid off to supply for
exactly the same item. Said he made 100% profit :-)

I'm not joking at all. There's something about military purchases
(perhaps the essential stupidity of large groups) that makes such
behavior thrive. It's not so bad with electronic components, unless
they're old and corroded -- but anything that has a "sell-by" date would
be a problem.

I know that the British had a problem with artillery rounds during WW-I
(which I believe they solved), and Stephan Ambrose talks about how
German artillery rounds were often duds during the allied invasion of
Europe (and since I have the second edition, includes a letter from a
former Jewish slave laborer, who was one of many that would
intentionally sabotage munitions -- I don't know that I could ever
muster the courage to go to work every day, and quietly engage in
behavior that would have my employers making me wish I were dead long
before they killed me).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 2010-11-21, Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:44:43 -0800, Tim Wescott
What do you want to bet that at some time in the past some enterprising
businessman got the bright idea of buying surplus ammo and selling it
back to the government as new?

I may be 100% civilian, but one of the points that I've learned from
histories is that it's hard to win a war with munitions that don't work
when you need them.

You may be joking but it does happen. I remember being a surplus
electronic place in L.A. and hearing the owner tell another chap how
he had bought a load of a some sort of electronic component from a
military salvage yard and later responding to a bid off to supply for
exactly the same item. Said he made 100% profit :-)
Cheers,

This happened to yours truly.

I bought perfectly new cylinder heads for Onan DJC generators (two
heads, one covers two cylinders, and the four cylinder DJC needs two
of such heads, so it was a set) from the military for $100.

I was lucky because I knew what the "heads" were, and they obviously
were not properly described, as usual.

Next week I put them on eBay and sold for $900 to a respectable
generator repair company.

I asked the buyer, just curious why did you buy them, and he said, he
was going to sell them to the military as they had an outstanding
order to fix a broken generator that was on some military base. I am
sure that his profit was far greater than mine.

i

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:44:43 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:


If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

What do you want to bet that at some time in the past some enterprising
businessman got the bright idea of buying surplus ammo and selling it
back to the government as new?

I may be 100% civilian, but one of the points that I've learned from
histories is that it's hard to win a war with munitions that don't work
when you need them.

So no government buyer can read a headstamp?

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On 2010-11-20, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 11/19/2010 03:29 PM, Wes wrote:
Jim wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

[ ... ]

What do you want to bet that at some time in the past some enterprising
businessman got the bright idea of buying surplus ammo and selling it
back to the government as new?

Well ... military ammo normally has the year of manufacture
encoded in the headstamp, so that would put paid to that trick. :-) If
someone can forge the datestamp to a more recent year undetectably (e.g.
turning a "68" to an "88" -- and in sufficient quantities to make it
worth while, they have *earned* their money. That is not an easy thing
to do -- and the old ammo would have to have dates which could be
plausibly forged to a later date.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Tim Wescott writes:

I know that the British had a problem with artillery rounds during
WW-I
(which I believe they solved), and Stephan Ambrose talks about how
German artillery rounds were often duds during the allied invasion of
Europe (and since I have the second edition, includes a letter from a
former Jewish slave laborer, who was one of many that would
intentionally sabotage munitions -- I don't know that I could ever
muster the courage to go to work every day, and quietly engage in
behavior that would have my employers making me wish I were dead long
before they killed me).

Quiet, unsung, unrecognized, unrewarded hweroism. I don't know that I'd
have passed that test either.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 23:41:28 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

Tim Wescott writes:

I know that the British had a problem with artillery rounds during
WW-I
(which I believe they solved), and Stephan Ambrose talks about how
German artillery rounds were often duds during the allied invasion of
Europe (and since I have the second edition, includes a letter from a
former Jewish slave laborer, who was one of many that would
intentionally sabotage munitions -- I don't know that I could ever
muster the courage to go to work every day, and quietly engage in
behavior that would have my employers making me wish I were dead long
before they killed me).

Quiet, unsung, unrecognized, unrewarded hweroism. I don't know that I'd
have passed that test either.

Given that the Jews knew pretty well that they were going to eventually
die, often from starvation or disease..wouldnt your biggest concern be
not getting caught and sabotaging as many "widgets" as you could before
you died?

Indeed heroic. Which is why I strongly support Israel. They are the
survivors..and those who will never let such brutality happen to them
again, no matter who the enemy is.

"Never Again"

Gunner

--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

Gunner Asch on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:26:49 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:29:38 -0500, Wes
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

Our administration tried to totally destroy it recently but Congress put a stop to that.

If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

Wes

Id be happy to destroy a carload as well

Me Three! I even have a hand truck to help with moving it!
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 00:04:12 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:26:49 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:29:38 -0500, Wes
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

Our administration tried to totally destroy it recently but Congress put a stop to that.

If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

Wes

Id be happy to destroy a carload as well

Me Three! I even have a hand truck to help with moving it!

Ive got a forklift!!!


--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

Gunner Asch writes:

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 23:41:28 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

Tim Wescott writes:

I know that the British had a problem with artillery rounds during
WW-I
(which I believe they solved), and Stephan Ambrose talks about how
German artillery rounds were often duds during the allied invasion of
Europe (and since I have the second edition, includes a letter from a
former Jewish slave laborer, who was one of many that would
intentionally sabotage munitions -- I don't know that I could ever
muster the courage to go to work every day, and quietly engage in
behavior that would have my employers making me wish I were dead long
before they killed me).

Quiet, unsung, unrecognized, unrewarded hweroism. I don't know that I'd
have passed that test either.

Given that the Jews knew pretty well that they were going to eventually
die, often from starvation or disease..wouldnt your biggest concern be
not getting caught and sabotaging as many "widgets" as you could before
you died?

The psychology rarely seems to work that way. The vast majority of
people seem to do whatever will keep them alive as individuals alive for
another minute, regardless of the impact on other people's survival or
their long-term odds.

Indeed heroic. Which is why I strongly support Israel. They are the
survivors..and those who will never let such brutality happen to them
again, no matter who the enemy is.

"Never Again"

Gunner

--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

Gunner Asch on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 05:37:47 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 00:04:12 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:26:49 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:29:38 -0500, Wes
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

And our government takes perfectly good ammo that passed a certain age and sells it to
companies that destroy it by separating it bullet, powerer, case, they also have to kill
the primer.

Then I buy it from that company that bought it and put it back together with a new primer
after swaging the primer pocket since military ammo tends to have crimped in pockets.

Our administration tried to totally destroy it recently but Congress put a stop to that.

If they want some ammo unloaded, send it to me, I'll give my word to fire it by a certain
date for free. Currently .30-06 and .45 acp would be welcome. If they need some 5.56
stuff shot, I'll buy an AR a bit sooner than I'm planning.

Wes

Id be happy to destroy a carload as well

Me Three! I even have a hand truck to help with moving it!

Ive got a forklift!!!

Doug has the big box truck!

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Ignoramus5827 wrote:
I visited SK Hand Tool factory in Chicago. It is a surprisingly big
complex of large, old, slightly mysterious, industrial buildings. I
was there to pick up a card cabinet.

What I saw there was forklifts that moved metal crates full of tools
(sockets, socket extensions, wrenches, cabinets etc) and dumped them
in a big metal dumpster. Turns out that the new owner (Ideal
Industries) that bought assets of bankrupt SK tools, does not want
those goods and decided to scrap them. They are declining all
offers to buy that stuff.

Well, there probably is a reason for this, having a lot to do with the
company logo
stamped into every part. They may be wanting to be sure no new sales
under the old
and maybe discontinued logo will get sold anywhere. That's assuming
Ideal is not going
to sell sockets, etc. under the SK brand name anymore.

Another possibility is that they are continuing the brand, and this
stuff is of a lower quality that SK bought from China or India, observed
it was crap, and are now destroying it to avoid damaging their brand.
It is even possible it is counterfeit stuff they seized.

Anyway, kind of sad to see probably good stuff going to be melted, but
there probably is a
business reason for it. Don't forget liability, if they sold this stuff
at 5 cents on the Dollar,
and somebody busted his knuckles when he abused them, they'd have to
defend themselves in court and end up losing millions just to pay the
lawyers!

Jon

Ignoramus16986 wrote:

Much of the Chinese industrial success is based on two factors, one is
that their workforce agrees to work for little pay in appalling
conditions, and another, that they are willing to trash their
environment in order to keep that workforce employed.

I personally expect that degradation of their environment will be a
strong limiting factor in their future growth as a nation.

The S**T HAS to hit the fan at some time. I can't believe the people
just took it when the poisoned milk catastrophe hit, or all the schools
fell down in a medium earthquake. Eventually, there will be some
similar catastrophe and the people WON'T take it lying down. The US
experienced unbelievable growth after WW-II, and we are now seeing that
wasn't sustainable, the growth in China seems even more unsustainable,
and it is going to be a HELL of a shock when the bubble pops.

Jon

Jim Stewart wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.
Now, my guess is this was before the breakup of Ma Bell, when one
company was
both the equipment manufacturer (Western Electric) and the largest user
(AT&T and
the many regional operating companies). It made sense to break up any
obsolete
gear as it could easily end up on the industrial surplus market either
in the US or
overseas, and cutting into their sales of spare parts or maybe even
whole exchanges.
I have no doubt that is AT&T deinstalled a switching center, it might be
installed a
few months later in India, Latin America or someplace like that.

My guess is that these companies are much less concerned about this
nowadays as
the gear becomes obsolete much faster.

Jon

On 2010-11-22, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus16986 wrote:

Much of the Chinese industrial success is based on two factors, one is
that their workforce agrees to work for little pay in appalling
conditions, and another, that they are willing to trash their
environment in order to keep that workforce employed.

I personally expect that degradation of their environment will be a
strong limiting factor in their future growth as a nation.

The S**T HAS to hit the fan at some time. I can't believe the people
just took it when the poisoned milk catastrophe hit, or all the schools
fell down in a medium earthquake. Eventually, there will be some
similar catastrophe and the people WON'T take it lying down. The US
experienced unbelievable growth after WW-II, and we are now seeing that
wasn't sustainable, the growth in China seems even more unsustainable,
and it is going to be a HELL of a shock when the bubble pops.

I am very optimistic regarding the economic future of the United
States, as long as the monetary policy is sensible.

I am not so optimistic regarding the likelihood that a large portion
of people will not have meaningful jobs available for them.

i

Jon Elson wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:

When I was a kid, the telephone company installed
a new dial switching center and junked the manual
system. Every relay, tube, patch panel and power
supply was smashed before it was auctioned off to
the scrapmonger.

Now, my guess is this was before the breakup of Ma Bell, when one
company was both the equipment manufacturer (Western Electric) and the
largest user (AT&T and the many regional operating companies). It
made sense to break up any obsolete gear as it could easily end up on
the industrial surplus market either in the US or overseas, and
cutting into their sales of spare parts or maybe even whole exchanges.

I have no doubt that is AT&T deinstalled a switching center, it might
be installed a few months later in India, Latin America or someplace
like that.

My guess is that these companies are much less concerned about this
nowadays as the gear becomes obsolete much faster.


In the '60s and '70s some gear was crated up and shipped to other CO
locations to use as spare parts, since no new parts were availible. The
Ohio Bell office in Middletown, Ohio reiceved truckloads of this old
crap to keep their first generation Stowager CO running, until Armco
Steel threatened to take their 10,000 lines private. That got
Middletown a 'two' digit serial numbered ESS to replace the 425
exchange. They brought in a 10,000 line mobile ESS that was built in a
couple semi trailers to start the conversion. Then they replaced the
other 50,000 line exchange 10,000 lines at a time. The old CO building
was almost empty by the time the conversion was complete.

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

On 11/21/2010 07:19 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus16986 wrote:

Much of the Chinese industrial success is based on two factors, one is
that their workforce agrees to work for little pay in appalling
conditions, and another, that they are willing to trash their
environment in order to keep that workforce employed.
I personally expect that degradation of their environment will be a
strong limiting factor in their future growth as a nation.

The S**T HAS to hit the fan at some time. I can't believe the people
just took it when the poisoned milk catastrophe hit, or all the schools
fell down in a medium earthquake. Eventually, there will be some similar
catastrophe and the people WON'T take it lying down. The US experienced
unbelievable growth after WW-II, and we are now seeing that wasn't
sustainable, the growth in China seems even more unsustainable, and it
is going to be a HELL of a shock when the bubble pops.

Overall I think they're still seeing their standard of living rise,
which does a mighty good job of papering over the cracks. But the
government over there is getting a lot more aggressive about jailing
dissidents (you should check out what they're doing to their Nobel peace
prize winner), and to them, someone who complains about milk or
collapsing schools is a "dissident".

When they fall, they're going to fall hard. When that happens, there's
going to be a lot of ****ed and confused people, many of them with guns
and tanks. Oh boy! Let's hope they keep them all pointed inwards.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 2010-11-20, Ignoramus16986 wrote:

Much of the Chinese industrial success is based on two factors, one is
that their workforce agrees to work for little pay in appalling
conditions, and another, that they are willing to trash their
environment in order to keep that workforce employed.

I personally expect that degradation of their environment will be a
strong limiting factor in their future growth as a nation.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=131440157


``US Embassy: Beijing Air Quality Is 'Crazy Bad'''

Pollution in Beijing was so bad Friday the U.S. Embassy, which has
been independently monitoring air quality, ran out of conventional
adjectives to describe it, at one point saying it was "crazy bad."

The embassy later deleted the phrase, saying it was an "incorrect"
description and it would revise the language to use when the air
quality index goes above 500, its highest point and a level considered
hazardous for all people by U.S. standards.

The hazardous haze has forced schools to stop outdoor exercises, and
health experts asked residents, especially those with respiratory
problems, the elderly and children, to stay indoors.

"We've canceled 10 days worth of games since August," said David
Niven, chief operating officer of China ClubFootball, which runs
extensive youth and adult football leagues in Beijing. "If the air is
above 240, some of the schools will ask us to move football games
indoors or cancel them altogether. Because of the bad air this year,
we've had to cancel more games than ever before."

Health experts say breathing polluted air can affect respiratory
functions and worsen problems for those with asthma or allergies.

China's official air quality rating was 312 on Friday. Environmental
groups and city residents have complained the government's measurement
system consistently underreports the severity of the problem.

Beijing's official air monitors only measure relatively coarse
particulate matter, whereas the U.S. system monitors smaller, deadlier
dust particles.

Experts say Beijing's frequently bad air has been even dirtier
recently because a growing number of factories and villages on the
outskirts of the city are burning coal for the winter, and more than
1,200 new cars hit the roads each day.

The capital underwent a massive cleanup in 2008 for the Olympic Games,
such as planting thousands of acres (hectares) of trees in and around
the city, but has since allowed some factories to reopen and lifted
some traffic restrictions, bringing pollution levels back up.

"If the city's planning was better, people from the outskirts wouldn't
have to commute for hours each day," said Ma Jun, director of the
Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs in Beijing. "Beijing
needs to place more of a priority on the environment. The health of
Beijing residents is no less important than the health of those
athletes who were here for a few weeks."

"We can't just expect wind, snow or rain to wipe out the pollution
when it gets bad," Ma added. "The city must take pollution more
seriously and implement preventive measures."

One Beijing resident said he was suffering breathing difficulties.

"I feel like I'm having some problems with breathing and distress in
my chest," said a high school teacher who only gave his surname, Qiao.

The big problem is that legislators decide to tax the life out of the
growth.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...

The US
experienced unbelievable growth after WW-II, and we are now seeing
that
wasn't sustainable, the growth in China seems even more unsustainable,
and it is going to be a HELL of a shock when the bubble pops.

Jon

On 11/21/2010 11:01 PM, Ignoramus18625 wrote:
On 2010-11-20, wrote:

Much of the Chinese industrial success is based on two factors, one is
that their workforce agrees to work for little pay in appalling
conditions, and another, that they are willing to trash their
environment in order to keep that workforce employed.

I personally expect that degradation of their environment will be a
strong limiting factor in their future growth as a nation.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=131440157


``US Embassy: Beijing Air Quality Is 'Crazy Bad'''

Pollution in Beijing was so bad Friday the U.S. Embassy, which has
been independently monitoring air quality, ran out of conventional
adjectives to describe it, at one point saying it was "crazy bad."

The embassy later deleted the phrase, saying it was an "incorrect"
description and it would revise the language to use when the air
quality index goes above 500, its highest point and a level considered
hazardous for all people by U.S. standards.

The hazardous haze has forced schools to stop outdoor exercises, and
health experts asked residents, especially those with respiratory
problems, the elderly and children, to stay indoors.

"We've canceled 10 days worth of games since August," said David
Niven, chief operating officer of China ClubFootball, which runs
extensive youth and adult football leagues in Beijing. "If the air is
above 240, some of the schools will ask us to move football games
indoors or cancel them altogether. Because of the bad air this year,
we've had to cancel more games than ever before."

Health experts say breathing polluted air can affect respiratory
functions and worsen problems for those with asthma or allergies.

China's official air quality rating was 312 on Friday. Environmental
groups and city residents have complained the government's measurement
system consistently underreports the severity of the problem.

Beijing's official air monitors only measure relatively coarse
particulate matter, whereas the U.S. system monitors smaller, deadlier
dust particles.

Experts say Beijing's frequently bad air has been even dirtier
recently because a growing number of factories and villages on the
outskirts of the city are burning coal for the winter, and more than
1,200 new cars hit the roads each day.

The capital underwent a massive cleanup in 2008 for the Olympic Games,
such as planting thousands of acres (hectares) of trees in and around
the city, but has since allowed some factories to reopen and lifted
some traffic restrictions, bringing pollution levels back up.

"If the city's planning was better, people from the outskirts wouldn't
have to commute for hours each day," said Ma Jun, director of the
Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs in Beijing. "Beijing
needs to place more of a priority on the environment. The health of
Beijing residents is no less important than the health of those
athletes who were here for a few weeks."

"We can't just expect wind, snow or rain to wipe out the pollution
when it gets bad," Ma added. "The city must take pollution more
seriously and implement preventive measures."

One Beijing resident said he was suffering breathing difficulties.

"I feel like I'm having some problems with breathing and distress in
my chest," said a high school teacher who only gave his surname, Qiao.


Wouldn't you think that if the Chinese are so damn smart that they would
have learned something from us about pollution? They saw how we nearly
ruined our environment with rivers that caught fire, air that was so bad
we couldn't go outside, thousands of environmental disaster sites like
Love Canal, and all the other assaults we did to the environment as we
became the world's number one producer of goods. Then they went out and
copied us and didn't learn a thing about keeping their country clean.
Seeing our problems with a filthy environment didn't seem to make any
impression on them. Now their air is so dirty they can't go out into the
street maybe it's dawning on them that copying us wasn't such a good
idea. They don't seem to have picked up that there is a downside to
using coal as a primary source of energy. We have learned that lesson.
We're not changing away from it nearly fast enough because of the
republicans. But at least we know better now. The Chinese government can
do anything it wants. So what's it waiting for? For China to become a
worse ecological disaster zone than the U.S. ever was? Yep, I'd say that
is proof the Chinese aren't as smart as people think. They could have
avoided the problems we had with a dirty environment but they went ahead
and crapped in their own beds even when they knew what the results would
be. That's dumb, if you ask me.

Hawke