Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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One comment states:
"Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair,
period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't
gonna happen."

Actually, my boss had a pair of pretty fancy LCDs, and just out of
warranty one of the backlights quit. He asked me to look at it, it was
obvious that some uncut leads on the back of the inverter board had
poked through some flimsy plastic insulation and was sparking to
grounded shield material. I snipped the leads flush to the PC board,
then replaced the plastic with heavy mylar film and put it back
together. The next day I did the other monitor just to prevent a repeat
at a random time.

Now, if you bust the glass or something electronic in the LCD display
itself goes out, it would be next to impossible to fix. The row and
column driver chips are attached to the glass by tiny flex circuits, and
the active matrix ones have transistors printed on the glass.

Jon
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On Nov 15, 5:06*pm, Jon Elson wrote:
One comment states:
"Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair,
period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't
gonna happen."

...
Now, if you bust the glass or something electronic in the LCD display
itself goes out, it would be next to impossible to fix. *The row and
column driver chips are attached to the glass by tiny flex circuits, and
the active matrix ones have transistors printed on the glass.
Jon


An LCD meter display may appear bad if the zebra strip connection
opens.

jsw
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On 2010-11-15, Ignoramus25291 wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Don Foreman wrote:


[ ... ]

I think that trying to make consumer electronic stuff either
repairable or infallible is unrealistic. We need to learn how to
recycle more efficiently, effectively and economically so we can
continue to enjoy the benefits of efficiently-produced low-cost
gadgets and gizmos without screwing up the planet.


Exactly. Electronic gadgets are usually obsolete in 3 years. Why go to
an extra expense to make, say, a cell phone or a MP3 player last 30
years?


Well ... I think that my cell phone is coming up on five years
now, and I hope that it continues for many more years. It is perhaps
one of the first with the digital mode instead of analog, and I don't
*want* many of the new features (such as GPS, built-in cameras, etc.) I
don't even *use* Texting. I had them (Verizon) disable it, because all
I was getting was spam -- once a month, and I got charged $0.20 per
text.

I've already replaced the battery (this summer), and hope that
another will be available when the next four years or so pass.

It makes no sense. Plus, there is no sense in making a $30 item
repairable, as any repair would easily cost much more.


I would be less upset if I could get another one which is just
like this one.

Computers are made to last longer and routinely go over 10 years of
age, and usually can be easily and inexpensively repaired by swapping
parts (fans, motherboards, cards etc). So, some electronic devices do
have greater reliability.


Indeed so. I am using quite a collection of older computers,
some fifteen years old or more. (Mostly Sun SPARC based systems.)

I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It
is based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a
disk drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server.


Hmm ... how many write cycles will the SSD survive? I know that
a lot of Compact Flash cards have a limit on the number of writes, which
makes them very poor choices for running a unix/linux/BSD box, since
every time a file is read, the last-accessed time in the inode is
updated -- unless you can mount the disk read-only. I would suggest
frequent backups to some other medium until you know for sure.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:02*am, Don Foreman wrote:
....
Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has
recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter
motor?


[ ... ]

That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do
myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys
might have had the same experience.


They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother
mentioning specific examples. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote:
....
Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has
recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter
motor?


[ ... ]

That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do
myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys
might have had the same experience.


They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother
mentioning specific examples. :-)



You're just being modest. ;-)


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.


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DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:02*am, Don Foreman wrote:
....
Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has
recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter
motor?

[ ... ]
That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do
myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys
might have had the same experience.


They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother
mentioning specific examples. :-)


I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff, but
when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be crazy
to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.)

Thanks,
Rich

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Rich Grise wrote:

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote:
....
Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has
recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter
motor?

[ ... ]
That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do
myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys
might have had the same experience.


They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother
mentioning specific examples. :-)


I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff, but
when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be crazy
to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.)



Try 14 inches below the floor joists in mud in January, in Ohio.
While recovering from the flu.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote:
....
Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who
has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or
starter motor?
[ ... ]
That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do
myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys
might have had the same experience.

They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother
mentioning specific examples. :-)


I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff,
but when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be
crazy to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.)


Try 14 inches below the floor joists in mud in January, in Ohio.
While recovering from the flu.

OK, you win. My sand was dry, but if it had been warm enough for mud
the pipes probably wouldn't have frozen. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

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On 15 Nov 2010 22:57:23 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-11-15, Ignoramus25291 wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Don Foreman wrote:


[ ... ]

I think that trying to make consumer electronic stuff either
repairable or infallible is unrealistic. We need to learn how to
recycle more efficiently, effectively and economically so we can
continue to enjoy the benefits of efficiently-produced low-cost
gadgets and gizmos without screwing up the planet.


Exactly. Electronic gadgets are usually obsolete in 3 years. Why go to
an extra expense to make, say, a cell phone or a MP3 player last 30
years?


Well ... I think that my cell phone is coming up on five years
now, and I hope that it continues for many more years. It is perhaps
one of the first with the digital mode instead of analog, and I don't
*want* many of the new features (such as GPS, built-in cameras, etc.) I
don't even *use* Texting. I had them (Verizon) disable it, because all
I was getting was spam -- once a month, and I got charged $0.20 per
text.


I still have a Nokia 5190 - one of the first GSM phones in North
America Actually I have 2. One unlocked and used on Rogers,and one
set up for Fido and never used - purchase date July 3 2001. I think
the Rogers one is older than the fido.

I've already replaced the battery (this summer), and hope that
another will be available when the next four years or so pass.

It makes no sense. Plus, there is no sense in making a $30 item
repairable, as any repair would easily cost much more.


I would be less upset if I could get another one which is just
like this one.

Computers are made to last longer and routinely go over 10 years of
age, and usually can be easily and inexpensively repaired by swapping
parts (fans, motherboards, cards etc). So, some electronic devices do
have greater reliability.


Indeed so. I am using quite a collection of older computers,
some fifteen years old or more. (Mostly Sun SPARC based systems.)

I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It
is based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a
disk drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server.


Hmm ... how many write cycles will the SSD survive? I know that
a lot of Compact Flash cards have a limit on the number of writes, which
makes them very poor choices for running a unix/linux/BSD box, since
every time a file is read, the last-accessed time in the inode is
updated -- unless you can mount the disk read-only. I would suggest
frequent backups to some other medium until you know for sure.

Enjoy,
DoN.


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On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:27:05 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote:
....
Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who
has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or
starter motor?
[ ... ]
That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do
myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys
might have had the same experience.

They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother
mentioning specific examples. :-)

I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff,
but when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be
crazy to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.)


Try 14 inches below the floor joists in mud in January, in Ohio.
While recovering from the flu.

OK, you win. My sand was dry, but if it had been warm enough for mud
the pipes probably wouldn't have frozen. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Thanksgiving weekend, 1971 was spent in a swamp, in the rain in
Dundalk Ontario transplanting the front suspension in a 1961 Rambler
American. Has to be the most miserable and memorable job I ever got
talked into - and then my brother went and replaced it with a Valiant
the next week - - - - - .


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While I'm at it. I have two toys of the same year and everything is
about 3/32 of an inch different on all interchangeable parts,
including the air filter!

Had that problem years ago when the timing chain ate through the
aluminum cover. Got another from a junk yard and majors amount of work
later the covers are 3/32" different.


You had 2 different engines. I'll bet one was an 8R and the other an
18R - or a 20R and a 22R.
The cam-in-block designs used interchangeable parts (2T and 3T, k, 2k,
3k and, IIRC, 5K) and 3R and 5R.


Wow, sounds like you work on toys. The timing chain one IIRC was the
difference between carb and injected. I almost milled it down, but I
traded it back for some skate (those tiny cars like a GEO) front seats
cause I hate the bench seats and ordered a new cover. The ones now I'm
pretty sure they are both 22Rs just one is a van and the other a
truck. Anyway, seems silly to change the mold for the plastic box that
holds the air filter.

I'm getting so cheap that the next project is trying to weld up the
last 3' of the exhaust system. Finally today I found a friend with a
pile of exhaust pipe that he said he dumpster dives for. All I need
now is some thinner welding rod.

Back when I was really poor I'd start collecting rabbits and Sciroccos
for $50-$200 and take them all apart to make one good car. I even
changed the FI head and put on the carb head, amazingly that worked.
Id love to have another. There where a number of times someone with a
new vet would rev their engine at a light and to my crappy car and I'd
leave them in the dust.

SW
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Rich Grise wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
CaveLamb wrote:

And interesting essay.
But will people buy products designed to be repaired?

http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html


One comment states:
"Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair,
period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't
gonna happen."

Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes?

I've never heard of it done. Have you?

Thanks,
Rich



I never rebuilt a picture tube CRT but I have changed a large number of
them in the early sixties and the core charge was a pretty good dollar.
Now days they don't even want the core.

I've have been repairing and fixing things since I was a little kid.
One thing I learned to do was to sew up baseballs so they looked like
new. There was always on lying around with the cover coming off.

One time I repaired a modulator valve on a heating/ac system on an auto
mechanic friends vehicle. I had to rewind a little coil on the valve.
He told me that that part was not repairable.

One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair
persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back
the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money
repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a
complete alignment right in the customers home. ]

John

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John wrote:

(...)

One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair
persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back
the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money
repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete
alignment right in the customers home. ]


In my yout, I worked for an outfit repairing telephone test gear.
Boss brought in a stereo, claimed it had lightning damage.

He was right. Every chip in the I.F. amp was fried.
I replaced them with 'workalike' parts and the thing
came to life! That was 'way more fun than replacing
a corroded switch in a breakdown test set.

--Winston

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Default Design for the dump? / SSD's

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:57:23 +0000, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Ignoramus25291 wrote:

....
I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It is
based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a disk
drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server.


Hmm ... how many write cycles will the SSD survive? I know that
a lot of Compact Flash cards have a limit on the number of writes, which
makes them very poor choices for running a unix/linux/BSD box, since
every time a file is read, the last-accessed time in the inode is
updated -- unless you can mount the disk read-only. I would suggest
frequent backups to some other medium until you know for sure.


Endurance of flash memory chips has increased a lot, so that
SSD lifetime and MTBF is better than some hard drives now.

Per http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html,
endurance of a flash memory cell was typically 10,000 write cycles
in 1994; 100,000 in 1997; millions of cycles now. A few years
ago, "typically 3% of blocks in a flash SSD might only last 100,000
cycles but over 90% would last 1 million cycles." SSD's (solid state
disks) use over-provisioning, bad block testing and management, and
transparent wear leveling for longer equipment life. Due to
wear leveling, for example, even though the logical sector
number of inode doesn't change, the physical sector it is
written in may change from time to time. Example in above
link is a 64GB SSD written continuously with expected lifetime
of 50 years. (A 64GB MZ-5PA064 SSD with 250MB/sec sequential
read and 170MB/sec sequential write speeds is $139 from
samsung.com. If the numbers in example are applied to it,
lifetime is ~ 25 years, due to it being 2 times faster than
in the example.)

Some SSD-specific filesystems are available that avoid
frequent writes, but might or might not be worth pursuing.
Per http://community.spiceworks.com/topic/107081, "The
concept of changing the way that you write to your SSD to
prolong lifespan comes from people using SD and CF cards as
SSDs. These have write lifespans so short that it is a real
issue. Good SSDs like you would use in a normal computer do
not." "Modern SSDs have MTBF so long that using them for
regular swap space is no problem." "An SSD will outlast a
normal HD by orders of magnitude." "When you talk of sparing
the SSD of writes it is like saying that you want to make sure
that it lasts for 40 years instead of 35."

--
jiw
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On 2010-11-16, James Waldby wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:57:23 +0000, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Ignoramus25291 wrote:

...
I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It is
based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a disk
drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server.


Hmm ... how many write cycles will the SSD survive? I know that


[ ... ]

Endurance of flash memory chips has increased a lot, so that
SSD lifetime and MTBF is better than some hard drives now.

Per http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html,


A very interesting read, and it shows that my information was
certainly out of date.

I may look into using them in my next system. (And even see
that FC is among the supported offerings. :-)

Thanks,
DoN.

--
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Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


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Rich Grise wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote:
....
Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who
has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or
starter motor?
[ ... ]
That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do
myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys
might have had the same experience.

They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother
mentioning specific examples. :-)

I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff,
but when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be
crazy to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.)


Try 14 inches below the floor joists in mud in January, in Ohio.
While recovering from the flu.

OK, you win. My sand was dry, but if it had been warm enough for mud
the pipes probably wouldn't have frozen. ;-)



No. I lost. I was sick for the next six months. I lost over 50
pounds and was so weak I could barely walk. I was fired for not showing
up for work while unconsious for five days with the flu. I lost 20 of
thosue pounds in that five days. I lost my home, and most of my
posessions as well.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
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"John" wrote in message
...


One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair
persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back
the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money repairing
TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment
right in the customers home. ]

John


I remember my father doing an alignment on the kitchen table. I don't think
we ever had to buy a TV, at that time, they were a significant expense.


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John wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
CaveLamb wrote:

And interesting essay.
But will people buy products designed to be repaired?

http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html

One comment states:
"Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair,
period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't
gonna happen."

Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes?

I've never heard of it done. Have you?


I never rebuilt a picture tube CRT but I have changed a large number of
them in the early sixties and the core charge was a pretty good dollar.
Now days they don't even want the core.

I've have been repairing and fixing things since I was a little kid.
One thing I learned to do was to sew up baseballs so they looked like
new. There was always on lying around with the cover coming off.

One time I repaired a modulator valve on a heating/ac system on an auto
mechanic friends vehicle. I had to rewind a little coil on the valve.
He told me that that part was not repairable.

One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair
persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back
the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money
repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a
complete alignment right in the customers home. ]

My most prominent memory of "The TV Repairman" was that he had B.O. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

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ATP wrote:
"John" wrote in message

One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair
persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back
the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money
repairing
TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment
right in the customers home. ]


I remember my father doing an alignment on the kitchen table. I don't
think we ever had to buy a TV, at that time, they were a significant
expense.


I read a thing, maybe in Readers' Digest, about some guy that got called
out on a service call; the wife at the customer's said that she had
vacuumed out the dust in the set, and "while we were in there, my husband
tightened down all the loose screws." (i.e., IF transformer tuning
slugs.) ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

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Rich Grise wrote:
ATP wrote:
wrote in message

One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair
persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back
the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money
repairing
TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment
right in the customers home. ]


I remember my father doing an alignment on the kitchen table. I don't
think we ever had to buy a TV, at that time, they were a significant
expense.


I read a thing, maybe in Readers' Digest, about some guy that got called
out on a service call; the wife at the customer's said that she had
vacuumed out the dust in the set, and "while we were in there, my husband
tightened down all the loose screws." (i.e., IF transformer tuning
slugs.) ;-)

Cheers!
Rich


I had a repair job where the lady was a cleaning fanatic. When I pulled
out the chassis she went bonkers apologising for the dusty insides of
the tv set. The main thing about doing a repair was to clean the tube
and the safety glass. In those days the crts didn't have the safety
glass bonded to it and cleaning the tube and the back of the safety
glass always made a major improvement on the picture and a good
impression on the customer.

John


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Rich Grise wrote:
John wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
CaveLamb wrote:

And interesting essay.
But will people buy products designed to be repaired?

http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html

One comment states:
"Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair,
period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't
gonna happen."

Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes?

I've never heard of it done. Have you?


I never rebuilt a picture tube CRT but I have changed a large number of
them in the early sixties and the core charge was a pretty good dollar.
Now days they don't even want the core.

I've have been repairing and fixing things since I was a little kid.
One thing I learned to do was to sew up baseballs so they looked like
new. There was always on lying around with the cover coming off.

One time I repaired a modulator valve on a heating/ac system on an auto
mechanic friends vehicle. I had to rewind a little coil on the valve.
He told me that that part was not repairable.

One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair
persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back
the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money
repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a
complete alignment right in the customers home. ]

My most prominent memory of "The TV Repairman" was that he had B.O. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich



I think most of them did.

John
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john wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

My most prominent memory of "The TV Repairman" was that he had B.O. ;-)


I think most of them did.



Considering that most TV shops and service trucks had no air
conditioning, what did you expect?


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