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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#41
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Design for the dump?
One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Actually, my boss had a pair of pretty fancy LCDs, and just out of warranty one of the backlights quit. He asked me to look at it, it was obvious that some uncut leads on the back of the inverter board had poked through some flimsy plastic insulation and was sparking to grounded shield material. I snipped the leads flush to the PC board, then replaced the plastic with heavy mylar film and put it back together. The next day I did the other monitor just to prevent a repeat at a random time. Now, if you bust the glass or something electronic in the LCD display itself goes out, it would be next to impossible to fix. The row and column driver chips are attached to the glass by tiny flex circuits, and the active matrix ones have transistors printed on the glass. Jon |
#42
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 15, 5:06*pm, Jon Elson wrote:
One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." ... Now, if you bust the glass or something electronic in the LCD display itself goes out, it would be next to impossible to fix. *The row and column driver chips are attached to the glass by tiny flex circuits, and the active matrix ones have transistors printed on the glass. Jon An LCD meter display may appear bad if the zebra strip connection opens. jsw |
#43
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Design for the dump?
On 2010-11-15, Ignoramus25291 wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Don Foreman wrote: [ ... ] I think that trying to make consumer electronic stuff either repairable or infallible is unrealistic. We need to learn how to recycle more efficiently, effectively and economically so we can continue to enjoy the benefits of efficiently-produced low-cost gadgets and gizmos without screwing up the planet. Exactly. Electronic gadgets are usually obsolete in 3 years. Why go to an extra expense to make, say, a cell phone or a MP3 player last 30 years? Well ... I think that my cell phone is coming up on five years now, and I hope that it continues for many more years. It is perhaps one of the first with the digital mode instead of analog, and I don't *want* many of the new features (such as GPS, built-in cameras, etc.) I don't even *use* Texting. I had them (Verizon) disable it, because all I was getting was spam -- once a month, and I got charged $0.20 per text. I've already replaced the battery (this summer), and hope that another will be available when the next four years or so pass. It makes no sense. Plus, there is no sense in making a $30 item repairable, as any repair would easily cost much more. I would be less upset if I could get another one which is just like this one. Computers are made to last longer and routinely go over 10 years of age, and usually can be easily and inexpensively repaired by swapping parts (fans, motherboards, cards etc). So, some electronic devices do have greater reliability. Indeed so. I am using quite a collection of older computers, some fifteen years old or more. (Mostly Sun SPARC based systems.) I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It is based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a disk drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server. Hmm ... how many write cycles will the SSD survive? I know that a lot of Compact Flash cards have a limit on the number of writes, which makes them very poor choices for running a unix/linux/BSD box, since every time a file is read, the last-accessed time in the inode is updated -- unless you can mount the disk read-only. I would suggest frequent backups to some other medium until you know for sure. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#44
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Design for the dump?
On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 2:02*am, Don Foreman wrote: .... Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? [ ... ] That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys might have had the same experience. They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother mentioning specific examples. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#45
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Design for the dump?
"DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote: .... Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? [ ... ] That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys might have had the same experience. They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother mentioning specific examples. :-) You're just being modest. ;-) -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#46
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Design for the dump?
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 2:02*am, Don Foreman wrote: .... Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? [ ... ] That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys might have had the same experience. They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother mentioning specific examples. :-) I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff, but when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be crazy to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.) Thanks, Rich |
#47
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Design for the dump?
Rich Grise wrote: DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote: .... Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? [ ... ] That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys might have had the same experience. They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother mentioning specific examples. :-) I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff, but when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be crazy to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.) Try 14 inches below the floor joists in mud in January, in Ohio. While recovering from the flu. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#48
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Design for the dump?
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Rich Grise wrote: DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote: .... Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? [ ... ] That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys might have had the same experience. They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother mentioning specific examples. :-) I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff, but when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be crazy to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.) Try 14 inches below the floor joists in mud in January, in Ohio. While recovering from the flu. OK, you win. My sand was dry, but if it had been warm enough for mud the pipes probably wouldn't have frozen. ;-) Cheers! Rich |
#49
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Design for the dump?
On 15 Nov 2010 22:57:23 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2010-11-15, Ignoramus25291 wrote: On 2010-11-15, Don Foreman wrote: [ ... ] I think that trying to make consumer electronic stuff either repairable or infallible is unrealistic. We need to learn how to recycle more efficiently, effectively and economically so we can continue to enjoy the benefits of efficiently-produced low-cost gadgets and gizmos without screwing up the planet. Exactly. Electronic gadgets are usually obsolete in 3 years. Why go to an extra expense to make, say, a cell phone or a MP3 player last 30 years? Well ... I think that my cell phone is coming up on five years now, and I hope that it continues for many more years. It is perhaps one of the first with the digital mode instead of analog, and I don't *want* many of the new features (such as GPS, built-in cameras, etc.) I don't even *use* Texting. I had them (Verizon) disable it, because all I was getting was spam -- once a month, and I got charged $0.20 per text. I still have a Nokia 5190 - one of the first GSM phones in North America Actually I have 2. One unlocked and used on Rogers,and one set up for Fido and never used - purchase date July 3 2001. I think the Rogers one is older than the fido. I've already replaced the battery (this summer), and hope that another will be available when the next four years or so pass. It makes no sense. Plus, there is no sense in making a $30 item repairable, as any repair would easily cost much more. I would be less upset if I could get another one which is just like this one. Computers are made to last longer and routinely go over 10 years of age, and usually can be easily and inexpensively repaired by swapping parts (fans, motherboards, cards etc). So, some electronic devices do have greater reliability. Indeed so. I am using quite a collection of older computers, some fifteen years old or more. (Mostly Sun SPARC based systems.) I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It is based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a disk drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server. Hmm ... how many write cycles will the SSD survive? I know that a lot of Compact Flash cards have a limit on the number of writes, which makes them very poor choices for running a unix/linux/BSD box, since every time a file is read, the last-accessed time in the inode is updated -- unless you can mount the disk read-only. I would suggest frequent backups to some other medium until you know for sure. Enjoy, DoN. |
#50
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Design for the dump?
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:27:05 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Rich Grise wrote: DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote: .... Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? [ ... ] That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys might have had the same experience. They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother mentioning specific examples. :-) I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff, but when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be crazy to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.) Try 14 inches below the floor joists in mud in January, in Ohio. While recovering from the flu. OK, you win. My sand was dry, but if it had been warm enough for mud the pipes probably wouldn't have frozen. ;-) Cheers! Rich Thanksgiving weekend, 1971 was spent in a swamp, in the rain in Dundalk Ontario transplanting the front suspension in a 1961 Rambler American. Has to be the most miserable and memorable job I ever got talked into - and then my brother went and replaced it with a Valiant the next week - - - - - . |
#51
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Design for the dump?
While I'm at it. I have two toys of the same year and everything is about 3/32 of an inch different on all interchangeable parts, including the air filter! Had that problem years ago when the timing chain ate through the aluminum cover. Got another from a junk yard and majors amount of work later the covers are 3/32" different. You had 2 different engines. I'll bet one was an 8R and the other an 18R - or a 20R and a 22R. The cam-in-block designs used interchangeable parts (2T and 3T, k, 2k, 3k and, IIRC, 5K) and 3R and 5R. Wow, sounds like you work on toys. The timing chain one IIRC was the difference between carb and injected. I almost milled it down, but I traded it back for some skate (those tiny cars like a GEO) front seats cause I hate the bench seats and ordered a new cover. The ones now I'm pretty sure they are both 22Rs just one is a van and the other a truck. Anyway, seems silly to change the mold for the plastic box that holds the air filter. I'm getting so cheap that the next project is trying to weld up the last 3' of the exhaust system. Finally today I found a friend with a pile of exhaust pipe that he said he dumpster dives for. All I need now is some thinner welding rod. Back when I was really poor I'd start collecting rabbits and Sciroccos for $50-$200 and take them all apart to make one good car. I even changed the FI head and put on the carb head, amazingly that worked. Id love to have another. There where a number of times someone with a new vet would rev their engine at a light and to my crappy car and I'd leave them in the dust. SW |
#52
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Design for the dump?
Rich Grise wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? Thanks, Rich I never rebuilt a picture tube CRT but I have changed a large number of them in the early sixties and the core charge was a pretty good dollar. Now days they don't even want the core. I've have been repairing and fixing things since I was a little kid. One thing I learned to do was to sew up baseballs so they looked like new. There was always on lying around with the cover coming off. One time I repaired a modulator valve on a heating/ac system on an auto mechanic friends vehicle. I had to rewind a little coil on the valve. He told me that that part was not repairable. One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment right in the customers home. ] John |
#53
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Design for the dump?
John wrote:
(...) One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment right in the customers home. ] In my yout, I worked for an outfit repairing telephone test gear. Boss brought in a stereo, claimed it had lightning damage. He was right. Every chip in the I.F. amp was fried. I replaced them with 'workalike' parts and the thing came to life! That was 'way more fun than replacing a corroded switch in a breakdown test set. --Winston |
#54
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Design for the dump? / SSD's
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:57:23 +0000, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-15, Ignoramus25291 wrote: .... I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It is based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a disk drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server. Hmm ... how many write cycles will the SSD survive? I know that a lot of Compact Flash cards have a limit on the number of writes, which makes them very poor choices for running a unix/linux/BSD box, since every time a file is read, the last-accessed time in the inode is updated -- unless you can mount the disk read-only. I would suggest frequent backups to some other medium until you know for sure. Endurance of flash memory chips has increased a lot, so that SSD lifetime and MTBF is better than some hard drives now. Per http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html, endurance of a flash memory cell was typically 10,000 write cycles in 1994; 100,000 in 1997; millions of cycles now. A few years ago, "typically 3% of blocks in a flash SSD might only last 100,000 cycles but over 90% would last 1 million cycles." SSD's (solid state disks) use over-provisioning, bad block testing and management, and transparent wear leveling for longer equipment life. Due to wear leveling, for example, even though the logical sector number of inode doesn't change, the physical sector it is written in may change from time to time. Example in above link is a 64GB SSD written continuously with expected lifetime of 50 years. (A 64GB MZ-5PA064 SSD with 250MB/sec sequential read and 170MB/sec sequential write speeds is $139 from samsung.com. If the numbers in example are applied to it, lifetime is ~ 25 years, due to it being 2 times faster than in the example.) Some SSD-specific filesystems are available that avoid frequent writes, but might or might not be worth pursuing. Per http://community.spiceworks.com/topic/107081, "The concept of changing the way that you write to your SSD to prolong lifespan comes from people using SD and CF cards as SSDs. These have write lifespans so short that it is a real issue. Good SSDs like you would use in a normal computer do not." "Modern SSDs have MTBF so long that using them for regular swap space is no problem." "An SSD will outlast a normal HD by orders of magnitude." "When you talk of sparing the SSD of writes it is like saying that you want to make sure that it lasts for 40 years instead of 35." -- jiw |
#55
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Design for the dump? / SSD's
On 2010-11-16, James Waldby wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:57:23 +0000, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2010-11-15, Ignoramus25291 wrote: ... I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It is based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a disk drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server. Hmm ... how many write cycles will the SSD survive? I know that [ ... ] Endurance of flash memory chips has increased a lot, so that SSD lifetime and MTBF is better than some hard drives now. Per http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html, A very interesting read, and it shows that my information was certainly out of date. I may look into using them in my next system. (And even see that FC is among the supported offerings. :-) Thanks, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#56
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Design for the dump?
Rich Grise wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Rich Grise wrote: DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 2:02 am, Don Foreman wrote: .... Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? [ ... ] That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys might have had the same experience. They *already* think that I'm crazy, so they don't bother mentioning specific examples. :-) I've never had anybody explicitly call me crazy for fixing my own stuff, but when the pipes under my mobile home froze and split, I had to be crazy to fix them! (about 18" high crawlspace, on sand.) Try 14 inches below the floor joists in mud in January, in Ohio. While recovering from the flu. OK, you win. My sand was dry, but if it had been warm enough for mud the pipes probably wouldn't have frozen. ;-) No. I lost. I was sick for the next six months. I lost over 50 pounds and was so weak I could barely walk. I was fired for not showing up for work while unconsious for five days with the flu. I lost 20 of thosue pounds in that five days. I lost my home, and most of my posessions as well. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#57
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Design for the dump?
"John" wrote in message ... One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment right in the customers home. ] John I remember my father doing an alignment on the kitchen table. I don't think we ever had to buy a TV, at that time, they were a significant expense. |
#58
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Design for the dump?
John wrote:
Rich Grise wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? I never rebuilt a picture tube CRT but I have changed a large number of them in the early sixties and the core charge was a pretty good dollar. Now days they don't even want the core. I've have been repairing and fixing things since I was a little kid. One thing I learned to do was to sew up baseballs so they looked like new. There was always on lying around with the cover coming off. One time I repaired a modulator valve on a heating/ac system on an auto mechanic friends vehicle. I had to rewind a little coil on the valve. He told me that that part was not repairable. One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment right in the customers home. ] My most prominent memory of "The TV Repairman" was that he had B.O. ;-) Cheers! Rich |
#59
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Design for the dump?
ATP wrote:
"John" wrote in message One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment right in the customers home. ] I remember my father doing an alignment on the kitchen table. I don't think we ever had to buy a TV, at that time, they were a significant expense. I read a thing, maybe in Readers' Digest, about some guy that got called out on a service call; the wife at the customer's said that she had vacuumed out the dust in the set, and "while we were in there, my husband tightened down all the loose screws." (i.e., IF transformer tuning slugs.) ;-) Cheers! Rich |
#60
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Design for the dump?
Rich Grise wrote:
ATP wrote: wrote in message One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment right in the customers home. ] I remember my father doing an alignment on the kitchen table. I don't think we ever had to buy a TV, at that time, they were a significant expense. I read a thing, maybe in Readers' Digest, about some guy that got called out on a service call; the wife at the customer's said that she had vacuumed out the dust in the set, and "while we were in there, my husband tightened down all the loose screws." (i.e., IF transformer tuning slugs.) ;-) Cheers! Rich I had a repair job where the lady was a cleaning fanatic. When I pulled out the chassis she went bonkers apologising for the dusty insides of the tv set. The main thing about doing a repair was to clean the tube and the safety glass. In those days the crts didn't have the safety glass bonded to it and cleaning the tube and the back of the safety glass always made a major improvement on the picture and a good impression on the customer. John |
#61
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Design for the dump?
Rich Grise wrote:
John wrote: Rich Grise wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? I never rebuilt a picture tube CRT but I have changed a large number of them in the early sixties and the core charge was a pretty good dollar. Now days they don't even want the core. I've have been repairing and fixing things since I was a little kid. One thing I learned to do was to sew up baseballs so they looked like new. There was always on lying around with the cover coming off. One time I repaired a modulator valve on a heating/ac system on an auto mechanic friends vehicle. I had to rewind a little coil on the valve. He told me that that part was not repairable. One of the big problems today is that there are not many skilled repair persons out there, most of them are parts changers, but as I think back the TV repair shops were mostly tube changers. I made good money repairing TV sets that the shops could not repair. I could do a complete alignment right in the customers home. ] My most prominent memory of "The TV Repairman" was that he had B.O. ;-) Cheers! Rich I think most of them did. John |
#62
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Design for the dump?
john wrote: Rich Grise wrote: My most prominent memory of "The TV Repairman" was that he had B.O. ;-) I think most of them did. Considering that most TV shops and service trucks had no air conditioning, what did you expect? -- For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked off scientist!!! |
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