Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Air tools (and evangelists)

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Where do you live? I'm in the USA. We have constitutional guarantees
of freedom of religion. And freedom of speech. We're free to worship,
and also free to teach others what we believe. We also have the
guarantee that the government shall not establish a religion (like
England, and their church of England). The concept of "separation of
church and state" was mentioned by some people, later, but is not
found in the US constitution. I do not belive "separation of church
and state" has any legal requirement.


You may benefit from reading something, for example first amendment.

``Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof''

This is the same as separaton of church and state.

i


I'm in Memphis Tennessee ... moved here in 1982 from Brigham City Utah .
You're free to preach to anyone you want to . I'm free to walk away and/or
ignore you .


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Default Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)

On Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:37:30 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

WTF, get a clue. Why waste your time making comments regarding procedures
which you are completely ignorant about?

Water heater tanks are not safe for compressed air.

Properly designed pressure vessels, in good condition, are safe for
compressed air at common shop-use pressure levels.

A proper pressure vessel would be air compressr receivers/tanks, propane or
other compressed gas bottles, and various commercial/industrial tanks that
are certified for compressed air pressures.

U.S.A. manufactured tanks will be marked with working pressure and test
pressure ratings. Generally, all domestic air compressor receivers are
marked with an ASME pressure vessel tag.

Fabricating an air compressor with leftover parts from various sources is
likely to be very dangerous, particularly when proper safety devices are
ommitted.

And what pressure is a new water heater tank tested to????? The
overpressure valve is generally rated at 150PSI and 210F - I've seen
the pressure rating higher - so the tank has to be good for at least
150 psi (new).

If the compressor is limited to 120PSI, a sound water heater tank
should be safe, but a propane tank is better, and timed out propane
tanks are readilly available and cheap.
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Default Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 18:01:04 -0600, Ignoramus32694
wrote:

On 2010-11-09, Wild_Bill wrote:
WTF, get a clue. Why waste your time making comments regarding procedures
which you are completely ignorant about?

Water heater tanks are not safe for compressed air.


Yes. Maximum household water pressure is 85 PSI. Compressed air needs
to be at higher pressure. So a water tank cannot be used for that
reason alone, in addition to what Wild Bill said.

i

Maximum RECCOMMENDED household water pressure is 80PSI. 115psi is not
unheard of, and check the rating of your safety blowoff valve - you
might be surprised. (hint - the valve MUST release at a lower
temperature than the safe rating of the tank)
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Default Air tools

To much pressure - some lock up. Can't recycle. The volume is vary low.

I've run for a time on a hand bottle and even those fancy compressed
bottles from Lowe's.

Finish nailer, crown stapler, roof coil nailer, lots of metal working
tools under air.

Martin

On 11/8/2010 12:27 AM, Michael Koblic wrote:
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad
nailer which I have not used in anger.

I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and
there are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to:

1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often
90 psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated
for the given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this
manifested? E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both? Will
it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating pressure
drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off thing?

2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the
available flow. What does lowering the operating pressure do to the
air-tool? I am looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x
voltage but I am not sure this analogy holds in this application. If the
electrical analogy holds I cannot see the air tool "suck" more air
because the pressure dropped, in fact I would intuitively assume *less*
flow.

3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated
from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it
require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)?

At this point I do not see much use for air tools in my shop but one
never knows.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC



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Default Air tools


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Michael Koblic writes:

3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is
operated
from a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or
will
it require a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full
power)?


You can run any tool off a tanked compressor at full power. The
tank
represents a near-infinite CFM source. The duty cycle is the
limitation.
If you put an air-hungry tool like a grinder on a small compressor,
the
tank drains in a matter of seconds.

Beware that tools are typically way underrated for air consumption
and
compressors overrated for air production.

See my page:

http://www.truetex.com/aircompressors.htm


RK:

Nice information on that page. Now if we could only see the test
results before
purchasing. BTW, I hazily recall there is a SEM question on that other
group if
you haven't been there in awhile.

Regards,

EH


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Default Air tools

On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 08:03:41 -0600, Ignoramus27561
wrote:

On 2010-11-08, Michael Koblic wrote:
Air tools are a new thing to me. At this point all I own is a brad nailer
which I have not used in anger.

I have been looking at the general principles guiding air tool use and there
are questions that I have not found satisfactory answer to:

1) Air tools are usually given specs including operating pressure (often 90
psi) and air flow (in CFM). If the available compressor is not rated for the
given flow "the tool will not perform properly". How is this
manifested?


If the compressor cannot keep up, inlet pressure will drop.


Then you stop and let the compressor refill the reservoir enough so
the regulator works.

E.g. a grinder: Will it turn slower? Less torque? Both?


Both


Neither, if you just quit and let things catch up when pressure
downstream of the regulator drops below 90 PSIG.

Will it not turn at all? Will it keep turning till the operating
pressure drops to some level and it stops, i.e is it an on-off
thing?


Yes


No.

2) Lowering the compressor operating pressure should increase the available
flow.


Usually, not by much.

What does lowering the operating pressure do to the air-tool? I am
looking at pressure x flow as similar to current x voltage but I am not sure
this analogy holds in this application. If the electrical analogy holds I
cannot see the air tool "suck" more air because the pressure dropped, in
fact I would intuitively assume *less* flow.


Usually that is the case indeed.

3) In practical terms, if a tool requiring "average" 3 CFM is operated from
a 2.7 CFM @90 psi will it just underperform all the time or will it require
a shorter duty cycle (and when "on" it will run at full power)?


It will underperform.


It'll work just fine if you just stop to let it catch up when
reservoir pressure drops to below what the regulator can regulate.

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Default Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)

If I had a clue, and knew why such was dangerous. Then I wouldn't be
ignorant, and I couldn't comment. But, well, I don't know what I'm
saying. So, I keep on blathering.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
WTF, get a clue. Why waste your time making comments regarding
procedures
which you are completely ignorant about?

Water heater tanks are not safe for compressed air.

Properly designed pressure vessels, in good condition, are safe for
compressed air at common shop-use pressure levels.

A proper pressure vessel would be air compressr receivers/tanks,
propane or
other compressed gas bottles, and various commercial/industrial tanks
that
are certified for compressed air pressures.

U.S.A. manufactured tanks will be marked with working pressure and
test
pressure ratings. Generally, all domestic air compressor receivers are
marked with an ASME pressure vessel tag.

Fabricating an air compressor with leftover parts from various sources
is
likely to be very dangerous, particularly when proper safety devices
are
ommitted.

--
WB
..........


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
If you have a bit of skill. A compressor from a refrigerator or air
conditioner will also compress air. Generally slower than the shop
compressors. So, you'd take a day or two to build up pressure. Use
an
old water heater for air expansion tank. Some refrigerator
compressors
won't start if the discharge side is unded pressure, so it takes
some
skill to make it all work. The advantage is that they are typically
rather quiet.

Like I say, if you have the time (slow discharge) the space (for a
LARGE expansion tank) and the skill (to put in a check valve, start
the compressor with no back pressure, change a couple valves and put
the air into the expansion tank). Could work for you.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

If one counts an air gun as an "air tool" then yes, that is what I
bought
the small compressor for. It is 4 gallons, ungodly noisy, but I can
fill the
tank at the beginning of the session and then switch it off and
still
have
enough air in the tank at the end.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC




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Default Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)

"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley
in :

Fabricating an air compressor with leftover parts from various sources
is
likely to be very dangerous, particularly when proper safety devices
are
ommitted.


Tell my shop air compressor that. I built it from scratch. A water
heater tank must withstand at least 125psi working pressure, or it would
explode in municipal domestic duty. My compressor tank works at 135psi,
with the line regulator set at 100psi.

Admittedly, I used components that I knew would withstand the duty (120
gal. propane tank, which, with propane, works at about 150psi in the
Southern sun), but my shop compressor is all "junk"; motor, pump, tank,
everthing literally collected from the local scrap yard -- everything,
except the motor starter, which was condemned as scrap by a compressor
company because it was unreliable. Except, it's not. They replaced the
unit with an upgrade device for free, and I salvaged the old one for my
unit. My guess is, they got a rash of failures, and changed brands; but
my specific one happens to be one of the ones that has not failed
prematurely.

The compressor's been in service for about four years. But it's junk.

LLoyd
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Default Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)

On 2010-11-14, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley
in :

Fabricating an air compressor with leftover parts from various sources
is
likely to be very dangerous, particularly when proper safety devices
are
ommitted.


Tell my shop air compressor that. I built it from scratch. A water
heater tank must withstand at least 125psi working pressure, or it would
explode in municipal domestic duty. My compressor tank works at 135psi,
with the line regulator set at 100psi.

Admittedly, I used components that I knew would withstand the duty (120
gal. propane tank, which, with propane, works at about 150psi in the
Southern sun), but my shop compressor is all "junk"; motor, pump, tank,
everthing literally collected from the local scrap yard -- everything,
except the motor starter, which was condemned as scrap by a compressor
company because it was unreliable. Except, it's not. They replaced the
unit with an upgrade device for free, and I salvaged the old one for my
unit. My guess is, they got a rash of failures, and changed brands; but
my specific one happens to be one of the ones that has not failed
prematurely.

The compressor's been in service for about four years. But it's junk.

LLoyd


Lloyd, so you used a propane tank to hold air. right?

A propane tank, unlike a water heater, is a pressure vessel suitable
for compressed gas.

By the way, how long did the smell persist?

i


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Default Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:01:07 -0600, Ignoramus12083
wrote:

On 2010-11-14, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley
in :

Fabricating an air compressor with leftover parts from various sources
is
likely to be very dangerous, particularly when proper safety devices
are
ommitted.


Tell my shop air compressor that. I built it from scratch. A water
heater tank must withstand at least 125psi working pressure, or it would
explode in municipal domestic duty. My compressor tank works at 135psi,
with the line regulator set at 100psi.

Admittedly, I used components that I knew would withstand the duty (120
gal. propane tank, which, with propane, works at about 150psi in the
Southern sun), but my shop compressor is all "junk"; motor, pump, tank,
everthing literally collected from the local scrap yard -- everything,
except the motor starter, which was condemned as scrap by a compressor
company because it was unreliable. Except, it's not. They replaced the
unit with an upgrade device for free, and I salvaged the old one for my
unit. My guess is, they got a rash of failures, and changed brands; but
my specific one happens to be one of the ones that has not failed
prematurely.

The compressor's been in service for about four years. But it's junk.

LLoyd


Lloyd, so you used a propane tank to hold air. right?

A propane tank, unlike a water heater, is a pressure vessel suitable
for compressed gas.

By the way, how long did the smell persist?

i

Don't know about his, but I had mine sitting out in the sun for a year
or so with the valve open, and when I put the compressor on it, there
was virtually no smell at all. And like he said, a water tank needs to
stand at least 125psi to be safe as a water tank. I would not trust
one that had been in water heater service for 10 years, or with
agressive water - that would be foolish - but we used a saddle fuel
tank from an old transport truck and an old industrial (2 cyl - and I
believe 2 stage) refrigeration compressor for an air source for over
10 years at the car club I belonged to in my youth - 125psi and never
a problem.
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:01:07 -0600, Ignoramus12083
wrote:

Lloyd, so you used a propane tank to hold air. right?

A propane tank, unlike a water heater, is a pressure vessel suitable
for compressed gas.

By the way, how long did the smell persist?

i

I do 6 - 8 purges over a couple weeks and the smell goes down to an
acceptable (to me) level.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
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Ignoramus12083 fired this volley in
:

By the way, how long did the smell persist?


One hour. I cleaned it out before putting it in service.

Methyl mercaptan is decomposed easily with household lye.

LLoyd
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You might want to take up the "should be safe" issue with your insurance
provider.

I suppose someone could find a new water heater, but using the new water
heater for a compressed air pressure vessel would be a bit far fetched, IMO.

Did you notice SM's omission of the critical safety devices in his post?

A bit of skill.. pump.. water heater tank = potential disaster.

--
WB
..........


wrote in message
...
And what pressure is a new water heater tank tested to????? The
overpressure valve is generally rated at 150PSI and 210F - I've seen
the pressure rating higher - so the tank has to be good for at least
150 psi (new).

If the compressor is limited to 120PSI, a sound water heater tank
should be safe, but a propane tank is better, and timed out propane
tanks are readilly available and cheap.


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Default Air tools (and refrigeration compressors)

A properly installed water heater won't explode.. that's what the safety
relief valve is designed and intended to prevent.

Your propane tank was certified for compressed gas (although liquid and gas)
for use at pressures that are most likely at least 200% more than normal
working pressure.
The actual burst test pressure of the propane tank is much higher than the
working pressure.

Where is the tank drain, or is the tank inverted? Just curious.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.70...
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley
in :

Fabricating an air compressor with leftover parts from various sources
is
likely to be very dangerous, particularly when proper safety devices
are
ommitted.


Tell my shop air compressor that. I built it from scratch. A water
heater tank must withstand at least 125psi working pressure, or it would
explode in municipal domestic duty. My compressor tank works at 135psi,
with the line regulator set at 100psi.

Admittedly, I used components that I knew would withstand the duty (120
gal. propane tank, which, with propane, works at about 150psi in the
Southern sun), but my shop compressor is all "junk"; motor, pump, tank,
everthing literally collected from the local scrap yard -- everything,
except the motor starter, which was condemned as scrap by a compressor
company because it was unreliable. Except, it's not. They replaced the
unit with an upgrade device for free, and I salvaged the old one for my
unit. My guess is, they got a rash of failures, and changed brands; but
my specific one happens to be one of the ones that has not failed
prematurely.

The compressor's been in service for about four years. But it's junk.

LLoyd




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The old truck fuel tank you refer to was most likely fabricated to some
specifications meeting DOT standards for highway use and exposure to damage.

And way-back-when, most products were made to higher standards of quality
and reliability.

--
WB
..........


wrote in message
...
Don't know about his, but I had mine sitting out in the sun for a year
or so with the valve open, and when I put the compressor on it, there
was virtually no smell at all. And like he said, a water tank needs to
stand at least 125psi to be safe as a water tank. I would not trust
one that had been in water heater service for 10 years, or with
agressive water - that would be foolish - but we used a saddle fuel
tank from an old transport truck and an old industrial (2 cyl - and I
believe 2 stage) refrigeration compressor for an air source for over
10 years at the car club I belonged to in my youth - 125psi and never
a problem.


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It may have been Grant that posted some cleaning tips for propane tanks,
several years ago, by using common household bleach to wash out the
mercaptan residue.

--
WB
..........


"Ignoramus12083" wrote in message
...

A propane tank, unlike a water heater, is a pressure vessel suitable
for compressed gas.

By the way, how long did the smell persist?

i


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On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 11:54:18 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

You might want to take up the "should be safe" issue with your insurance
provider.

I suppose someone could find a new water heater, but using the new water
heater for a compressed air pressure vessel would be a bit far fetched, IMO.

Did you notice SM's omission of the critical safety devices in his post?

A bit of skill.. pump.. water heater tank = potential disaster.

You definitely need an unloader and a blow-off valve. The water
heater comes with a blow-off valve installed.


A bit of skill, pump, and a certified air reciever can also equal
potential disaster if the safety devices are omitted.
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On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:11:02 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

A properly installed water heater won't explode.. that's what the safety
relief valve is designed and intended to prevent.

Your propane tank was certified for compressed gas (although liquid and gas)
for use at pressures that are most likely at least 200% more than normal
working pressure.
The actual burst test pressure of the propane tank is much higher than the
working pressure.

Where is the tank drain, or is the tank inverted? Just curious.

Been done both ways. I brazed a heavy washer on the bottom of my tank
and drilled and tapped it for 1/8NPT for the drain.
A friend did it the other way - bottom feed, with the air drawn out 6"
up, and the drain at the bottom (specially made fitting to screw in in
place of the Propane valve)
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On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:22:13 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

The old truck fuel tank you refer to was most likely fabricated to some
specifications meeting DOT standards for highway use and exposure to damage.

And way-back-when, most products were made to higher standards of quality
and reliability.

Correct - but it was NOT a certified pressure vessel - and not
designed for compressed air use. - and it still worked safely and
reliably for many years - and it was OLD when it was put into service.


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"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

Where is the tank drain, or is the tank inverted? Just curious.


I did not compromise the tank. I installed a dip-tube drain through one of
the existing ports on the top of the tank.

LLoyd
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That was Clare's text. My quoting style sometimes gets scrambled. In
any case, your compressor sounds successful, to me.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.70...
"Stormin Mormon" fired this
volley
in :

Fabricating an air compressor with leftover parts from various
sources
is
likely to be very dangerous, particularly when proper safety devices
are
ommitted.


Tell my shop air compressor that. I built it from scratch. A water
heater tank must withstand at least 125psi working pressure, or it
would
explode in municipal domestic duty. My compressor tank works at
135psi,
with the line regulator set at 100psi.

Admittedly, I used components that I knew would withstand the duty
(120
gal. propane tank, which, with propane, works at about 150psi in the
Southern sun), but my shop compressor is all "junk"; motor, pump,
tank,
everthing literally collected from the local scrap yard -- everything,
except the motor starter, which was condemned as scrap by a compressor
company because it was unreliable. Except, it's not. They replaced
the
unit with an upgrade device for free, and I salvaged the old one for
my
unit. My guess is, they got a rash of failures, and changed brands;
but
my specific one happens to be one of the ones that has not failed
prematurely.

The compressor's been in service for about four years. But it's junk.

LLoyd


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In the decades I've been aware of such things. Every WH tank I've ever
seen has a T/P safety valve on it. I didn't think it was too essential
to mention something that's always there.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...


Did you notice SM's omission of the critical safety devices in his
post?

A bit of skill.. pump.. water heater tank = potential disaster.

--
WB
..........


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