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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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wring out a lot of wire
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? Karl |
#2
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wring out a lot of wire
On 2010-09-26, Karl Townsend wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? That's a very tough job. I would first invest a lot of effort into finding a manual and schematic. i |
#3
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wring out a lot of wire
On 9/26/2010 5:03 PM, Ignoramus24898 wrote:
On 2010-09-26, Karl wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? That's a very tough job. I would first invest a lot of effort into finding a manual and schematic. Till then, ground your ohmmeter and determine which of those 50 are 'returns'. That will cut down on your work *a lot*. You could discover that you're challenge is *only* 30 connections. --Winston -- Corporate executive forgets to commit a felony for 24 hours. Film at 11. |
#4
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 26, 4:59*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? Karl Usually the connector is numbered on face or rear or face AND rear. Sometimes you can come up with a numbering scheme by looking up the connector in a catalog. Very few manufacturers used proprietary connectors, they may not be common, but somebody had to have made them. Anything beyond just a few pairs of wires will have some kind of numbering scheme or the techs wouldn't be able put the cables together correctly in the first place or service the thing afterwards. Usually there's a color code on the wiring, too. I'll second the other poster about making an extreme effort to get some kind of service data. Somebody had to fix the things! Otherwise, you're in for a long session with a buzzer and battery. Stan |
#5
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wring out a lot of wire
Karl Townsend wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? I would group a lot of resistors and tie one end of all of the to ground to ground. Use in multiples of 10, like 10, 100, 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M ohms to make it obvious which wire is which. Then probe the wires at the other end. In seven passes you can identify the entire cable. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#6
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wring out a lot of wire
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#7
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 26, 3:59*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? Karl 50 conductor sounds like telephone cable. Are the wires stranded or solid? Are they pairs of wires twisted together? If twisted together, then you have pairs already and only have 25 pairs to deal with. Paul |
#9
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wring out a lot of wire
" wrote: On Sep 26, 3:59 pm, Karl Townsend wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? 50 conductor sounds like telephone cable. Are the wires stranded or solid? Are they pairs of wires twisted together? If twisted together, then you have pairs already and only have 25 pairs to deal with. There is also 50 conductor (and larger) control cable. Telephone wire is typically solid 24 or 26 AWG that doesn't hold up well with vibration. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#10
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:16:56 -0700, Winston
wrote: On 9/26/2010 5:03 PM, Ignoramus24898 wrote: On 2010-09-26, Karl wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? That's a very tough job. I would first invest a lot of effort into finding a manual and schematic. Till then, ground your ohmmeter and determine which of those 50 are 'returns'. That will cut down on your work *a lot*. You could discover that you're challenge is *only* 30 connections. --Winston I just checked this. On first run, nothing grounded, but I don't have the dead 6M fanuc computer here, its at the kid's place. Maybe this cable was grounded on one end at the computer for all the extra conductors. You're right, if I could eliminate half, the job would be simpler. |
#11
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wring out a lot of wire
Matsuura is still in business. Call them, call dealers, bribe dealers etc. Didn't he say all all he had left was the wire? That everything else had been removed, and the wires were unmarked? This machine has waited YEARS for a refit, hoping for manuals. No joy, and we've tried A LOT. Your suggestion for different resistors has merit. But I'm still hoping for some kind of suggestion to test several at a time for voltage. Karl |
#12
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wring out a lot of wire
50 conductor sounds like telephone cable. Are the wires stranded or solid? Are they pairs of wires twisted together? If twisted together, then you have pairs already and only have 25 pairs to deal with. There is also 50 conductor (and larger) control cable. Telephone wire is typically solid 24 or 26 AWG that doesn't hold up well with vibration. I haven't cut the fanuc connector off yet, so i don't know what I'll see inside. Surely 1/2 of these conductors are grounded. best suggestion so far is to focus on figuring this out first. Next, I'm thinking 50 lights on a terminal strip or??? Could use a good idea here. Karl |
#13
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wring out a lot of wire
Karl Townsend wrote: Matsuura is still in business. Call them, call dealers, bribe dealers etc. Didn't he say all all he had left was the wire? That everything else had been removed, and the wires were unmarked? This machine has waited YEARS for a refit, hoping for manuals. No joy, and we've tried A LOT. Your suggestion for different resistors has merit. But I'm still hoping for some kind of suggestion to test several at a time for voltage. It has saved me weeks worth of work ringing out large bundles of audio cables in school intercoms. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#14
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:43:54 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? I would group a lot of resistors and tie one end of all of the to ground to ground. Use in multiples of 10, like 10, 100, 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M ohms to make it obvious which wire is which. Then probe the wires at the other end. In seven passes you can identify the entire cable. I use one of these... http://www.valley-ent.com/catalog/ca...ker-p-400.html I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote) |
#15
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wring out a lot of wire
Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:43:54 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? I would group a lot of resistors and tie one end of all of the to ground to ground. Use in multiples of 10, like 10, 100, 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M ohms to make it obvious which wire is which. Then probe the wires at the other end. In seven passes you can identify the entire cable. I use one of these... http://www.valley-ent.com/catalog/ca...ker-p-400.html I came up with the resistor method when I had to ring out about 70 pairs in a school building, and the ends were over 1/4 mile apart. Some kids had vandalized the intercom by breaking into a 24" * 24" junction box. They ripped out all the wire nuts, then removed all the little jewlwery store type paper tags my competiton used on their jobs. Only 55 pairs from the office were used. Some were duplicate callback lines, and others were spares. A telephone type tracer would have required me to walk over 35 miles to locate each half of each run. because the campus was huge. I bought one of these, but I haven't used it yet: http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=SS35407-TEST&cpc=SCH -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#16
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wring out a lot of wire
On 9/26/2010 8:55 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:
(...) Next, I'm thinking 50 lights on a terminal strip or??? Could use a good idea here. Does your ohmmeter have a 'beep' continuity mode? (This goes a lot faster than my explanation implies.) Start by shorting the two probes together to confirm the meter will beep properly. Place one probe on pin 1 and move the other probe to pin 2 - 50 in sequence. Record all beeps. Move your probe from pin 1 to pin 2 and repeat your scan with your other probe. If a pin beeps to any other pin, write that down. 'Pin 5 to pin 32' for example. Eventually you will find a pin that beeps to a lot of other pins. (Often, many of the even - numbered pins or odd - numbered pins.) If these pins also beep to a ground point on the control panel, you have good evidence to support the theory that you found your ground connections. Confirm this by switching to normal 'ohms' mode and check the 'beeping' connections once more. You should see that there is no difference in resistance between 'shorted probes' and your suspected connections. Remove any connection from your list that appears to exceed that resistance by say 0.7 ohm or more. Example: With probes shorted together, you see that the meter reads 0.2 ohm. All the valid connections will read no more than say 0.9 ohm. (Practically speaking, your valid readings should also be in the 0.2 ohm - 0.5 ohm range). A pin reading higher resistance should be dropped from your list (unless it is just a dirty connection that you can polish and bring under 0.9 ohm). Use alligator clips to connect your beeping ohmmeter to your ground connection and hold the other probe in sequence to each of the pins that did not beep. Press each button on the control panel till you hear your meter beep. Write down the pin number and button logo. You can run this inspection in about 1% of the time it would take to build your terminal strip. That is how I do it. --Winston |
#17
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 26, 6:59*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? Karl I don't quite understand the scope of this problem from your description. Do you need to reconstruct the connectivity, the functionality, or both? When I check a cable for opens or shorts I sketch each exposed pin or socket face and label the pins with their number or letter, which on Mil circular connectors may be visible on the back of the insert after removing the backshell. With the shell off look for any Y splices, resistors, diodes etc within it. I draw a box or circle for each pin and fill in the unused ones. The sketch makes keeping track of progress -much- easier. Then I clamp or weight the connectors side by side facing me, tilted up so I can read any pin numbering and rotated to match the sketch. This leaves both hands free to hold the meter probes. If the probe is too big to fit into a socket I clip on one of the safety pins from my key ring. Make a table listing all the pins in one connector, preferably the largest. Winston described how to buzz the wires out efficiently. If you didn't find splices and the number of wires is the same on both ends you can assume the first hit is the only one, though it's easy to wipe quickly across the rest of the connector. Record each hit in the table, like J22-5 --- J17-19. Also mark all no connect pins, J22-8 -- nc. When done, visually check that there's a wire in the connectors for each one in the table. This should catch any pin you missed or a splice that was covered up. If you write the table in a spreadsheet you can expand it with the connections you find in the boxes and add signal names as you determine them. The method that uses resistors requires extra connectors and pins. It works well for production where you have spare parts and recover the overhead of making the test connector in shorter test times and less skilled operators. I've never bothered with it for a few cables where it's easy to wipe the probe quickly listening for a beep, then localize it. For most newly made cables opens are far more likely than shorts so I just jumper pairs of pins together on both ends so a single continuity check will zigzag through all of the wires. jsw |
#18
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wring out a lot of wire
The fastest way to match-up ends of wires in a cable is a binary search.
Where fastest means the least number of tests. The number of tests required is the number of bits needed to represent the number of wires. E.g. 64 wires would require 6 tests. This is especially efficient where each test means traveling some distance between the ends of the wires. I used it where I had a bunch of unmarked wires coming into a fuse panel, the other ends of which went all over the house. Each test involved traveling the house, testing each end. A binary search involves dividing the wires into 2 groups for each test, then redividing them for the next test. When you're done, each wire has been in a unique collection of groups. For example, say you have 8 wires, arbitrarily numbered 1 through 8. For the 1st test, wires 1 - 4 are tied together (5-8 are loose). In the next test 1-2,5-6 are (all) tied & the 3rd test 1,3,5,7. For each test, the tied-together wires are rung to each of the loose wires on the other end. So, if a other-end wire rung to groups 1 & 3, it would be wire 3 (1-4, not 1-2, 1 or 3). I could be more explicit, but you get the idea. If you number and group the wires right, the ring-ing groups are the binary number of the wire. HTH, Bob BTW - it's "ringing out" cables, from the use a buzzer/bell to test continuity. |
#19
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wring out a lot of wire
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
The fastest way to match-up ends of wires in a cable is a binary search. ... Oh, wait ... your cables have connectors on both ends, right? In that case, tieing ends together is not practical and you can "never mind" what I said. Bob |
#20
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 27, 8:49*am, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
The fastest way to match-up ends of wires in a cable is a binary search. * Where fastest means the least number of tests. *The number of tests required is the number of bits needed to represent the number of wires. * E.g. 64 wires would require 6 tests. *This is especially efficient where each test means traveling some distance between the ends of the wires. *I used it where I had a bunch of unmarked wires coming into a fuse panel, the other ends of which went all over the house. *Each test involved traveling the house, testing each end. A binary search involves dividing the wires into 2 groups for each test, then redividing them for the next test. *When you're done, each wire has been in a unique collection of groups. *For example, say you have 8 wires, arbitrarily numbered 1 through 8. *For the 1st test, wires 1 - 4 are tied together (5-8 are loose). *In the next test 1-2,5-6 are (all) tied & the 3rd test 1,3,5,7. *For each test, the tied-together wires are rung to each of the loose wires on the other end. *So, if a other-end wire rung to groups 1 & 3, it would be wire 3 (1-4, not 1-2, 1 or 3). I could be more explicit, but you get the idea. *If you number and group the wires right, the ring-ing groups are the binary number of the wire. HTH, Bob BTW - it's "ringing out" cables, from the use a buzzer/bell to test continuity. That's a very efficient method when you have a way to jumper the wires together in groups, but it doesn't work well for connectors if you don't have spare mating pins. I do the binary search a little differently to keep it simple. Connect 1+2+3+4 and check. If open I'd connect 5+6 and check. If open I'd try 7, then 8 just to confirm it. The number of tests is the same but there's less handling damage to the wire ends. I traced out my fuse box with a vacuum cleaner that makes a low rumble which travels through the floors and frame of the house. jsw |
#21
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 26, 6:59*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? Karl The suggestions you have received here are all pretty good. I would add, however, that you ought to "just do it." These kinds of jobs, while tedious, are often easier than you think. Just dive in, and in an hour, or a few hours, you'll be done and can move on. That said, I remember reading, in the early 80s about a Cray supercomputer that contained thirty MILES of twisted pair 30 gauge wire wrap wire, all the same color. Talk about yer nightmares. |
#22
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wring out a lot of wire
Jim Wilkins wrote: On Sep 27, 8:49 am, Bob Engelhardt wrote: The fastest way to match-up ends of wires in a cable is a binary search. Where fastest means the least number of tests. The number of tests required is the number of bits needed to represent the number of wires. E.g. 64 wires would require 6 tests. This is especially efficient where each test means traveling some distance between the ends of the wires. I used it where I had a bunch of unmarked wires coming into a fuse panel, the other ends of which went all over the house. Each test involved traveling the house, testing each end. A binary search involves dividing the wires into 2 groups for each test, then redividing them for the next test. When you're done, each wire has been in a unique collection of groups. For example, say you have 8 wires, arbitrarily numbered 1 through 8. For the 1st test, wires 1 - 4 are tied together (5-8 are loose). In the next test 1-2,5-6 are (all) tied & the 3rd test 1,3,5,7. For each test, the tied-together wires are rung to each of the loose wires on the other end. So, if a other-end wire rung to groups 1 & 3, it would be wire 3 (1-4, not 1-2, 1 or 3). I could be more explicit, but you get the idea. If you number and group the wires right, the ring-ing groups are the binary number of the wire. HTH, Bob BTW - it's "ringing out" cables, from the use a buzzer/bell to test continuity. That's a very efficient method when you have a way to jumper the wires together in groups, but it doesn't work well for connectors if you don't have spare mating pins. I do the binary search a little differently to keep it simple. Connect 1+2+3+4 and check. If open I'd connect 5+6 and check. If open I'd try 7, then 8 just to confirm it. The number of tests is the same but there's less handling damage to the wire ends. I traced out my fuse box with a vacuum cleaner that makes a low rumble which travels through the floors and frame of the house. We used to use a cheap radio for that. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#23
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wring out a lot of wire
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote: .... I traced out my fuse box with a vacuum cleaner that makes a low rumble which travels through the floors and frame of the house. We used to use a cheap radio for that. I've done that also. It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker that feeds an outlet. If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each outlet in turn). Bob |
#24
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wring out a lot of wire
Bob Engelhardt wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Jim Wilkins wrote: ... I traced out my fuse box with a vacuum cleaner that makes a low rumble which travels through the floors and frame of the house. We used to use a cheap radio for that. I've done that also. It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker that feeds an outlet. If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each outlet in turn). Don't you have more than one radio? ;-) -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#25
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 27, 11:01*am, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: Jim Wilkins wrote: .... I've done that also. *It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker that feeds an outlet. *If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each outlet in turn). Bob If the owner permits you can reduce the number of trips by checking nearby outlets and switches and writing the breaker number on the live (or dead) ones, on the back of the plate perhaps, to mark them as already identified. I stuck Brady markers on mine, then made a list to put near the box. jsw |
#26
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wring out a lot of wire
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:19:39 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote: Karl Townsend wrote: I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are for by where the cable run goes. I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the function of each wire. Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best approach? Karl Are the cables still connected to controls or whatever at one end? If so, any continuity test might be confused by sneak paths through the controls (multiple conductors will be connected through closed contacts or low impedance relay coils). If there are terminal blocks available, its best to disconnect one conductor at a time and test it at the (disconnected) far end of a cable. That doesn't take as much time as it sounds. I use a continuity tester with an audible signal and brushing the probe over all the free conductors a few times, listening for the beep narrows it down pretty rapidly. Yep, this is the point everybody missed. The operator panel is all soldered up and I don't want to take anyting apart in there. it would ruin it. I don't need to just trace a wire from one end to the other, I need to know which wire is connected to which switch. Karl |
#27
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wring out a lot of wire
On 9/27/2010 11:40 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
(...) Yep, this is the point everybody missed. The operator panel is all soldered up and I don't want to take anyting apart in there. it would ruin it. I don't need to just trace a wire from one end to the other, I need to know which wire is connected to which switch. Well, not *everybody* missed the point. Quoting me: Does your ohmmeter have a 'beep' continuity mode? (This goes a lot faster than my explanation implies.) Start by shorting the two probes together to confirm the meter will beep properly. Place one probe on pin 1 and move the other probe to pin 2 - 50 in sequence. Record all beeps. Move your probe from pin 1 to pin 2 and repeat your scan with your other probe. If a pin beeps to any other pin, write that down. 'Pin 5 to pin 32' for example. Eventually you will find a pin that beeps to a lot of other pins. (Often, many of the even - numbered pins or odd - numbered pins.) If these pins also beep to a ground point on the control panel, you have good evidence to support the theory that you found your ground connections. Confirm this by switching to normal 'ohms' mode and check the 'beeping' connections once more. You should see that there is no difference in resistance between 'shorted probes' and your suspected connections. Remove any connection from your list that appears to exceed that resistance by say 0.7 ohm or more. Example: With probes shorted together, you see that the meter reads 0.2 ohm. All the valid connections will read no more than say 0.9 ohm. (Practically speaking, your valid readings should also be in the 0.2 ohm - 0.5 ohm range). A pin reading higher resistance should be dropped from your list (unless it is just a dirty connection that you can polish and bring under 0.9 ohm). Use alligator clips to connect your beeping ohmmeter to your ground connection and hold the other probe in sequence to each of the pins that did not beep. Press each button on the control panel till you hear your meter beep. Write down the pin number and button logo. You can run this inspection in about 1% of the time it would take to build your terminal strip. That is how I do it. Unquote. --Winston |
#28
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 27, 2:40*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote: ... Yep, this is the point everybody missed. The operator panel is all soldered up and I don't want to take anyting apart in there. it would ruin it. I don't need to just trace a wire from one end to the other, I need to know which wire is connected to which switch. Karl We didn't miss it, you didn't give much background detail so I posted a generalized cable tracing procedure. Is this unit completely passive, only lights and switches, or does it contain active circuitry? Even relays count, coils with kickback diodes have a polarity and you may have to energize them to find the normally-open contact. How easily can you connect to it? Are you holding meter probes on pins or can you plug in a wired connector and make solid hands-free connections? jsw |
#29
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
Is this unit completely passive, only lights and switches, or does it contain active circuitry? Even relays count, coils with kickback diodes have a polarity and you may have to energize them to find the normally-open contact. Passive, several lamps, pushbuttons, rotary switches, and a few toggles. One MPG (manual pulse generator - like an encoder) How easily can you connect to it? Are you holding meter probes on pins or can you plug in a wired connector and make solid hands-free connections? jsw Right now I have two 30' cables with an end on it that plugs into a Fanuc 6 computer board header. The cables are at least 20' too long. Somebody suggested all the spares are likely tied to ground. It looks like on the computer end only. I don't have the compter here right now and i can't find any conductors going to ground. I'll get the computer back and focus on finding the spares first. Like somebody said, this will cut the problem in half. From there, I guess I'm planning on hooking each wire up to an Opto22 input. They have an LED that will light when they see power. Its only fifty wires, once its all connected i should be able to toggle an input and see which opto fires. Karl |
#30
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 27, 7:24*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote: Is this unit completely passive, only lights and switches, or does it contain active circuitry? Even relays count, coils with kickback diodes have a polarity and you may have to energize them to find the normally-open contact. Passive, several lamps, pushbuttons, rotary switches, and a few toggles. One MPG (manual pulse generator - like an encoder) How easily can you connect to it? Are you holding meter probes on pins or can you plug in a wired connector and make solid hands-free connections? jsw Right now I have two 30' cables with an end on it that plugs into a Fanuc 6 computer board header. The cables are at least 20' too long. Somebody suggested all the spares are likely tied to ground. It looks like on the computer end only. I don't have the compter here right now and i can't find any conductors going to ground. I'll get the computer back and focus on finding the spares first. Like somebody said, this will cut the problem in half. From there, I guess I'm planning on *hooking each wire up to an Opto22 input. They have an LED that will light when they see power. Its only fifty wires, once its all connected i should be able to toggle an input and see which opto fires. Karl If you can put stripped, numbered wires in the mate of that Fanuc connector you can check resistance between each wire and all the others, clipped together. Closed switch contacts are shorts which open when you flip that switch, lamps should show a filament resistance. You might be able to make them glow slightly by powering them with a battery and series limiting resistor or light bulb. But be sure the voltage and current from the battery won't hurt anything. A car side marker bulb might work. After you marked and eliminated the bulbs and closed contacts, the open contact wires should be easier. jsw |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
I came up with the resistor method when I had to ring out about 70 pairs in a school building, and the ends were over 1/4 mile apart. Some kids had vandalized the intercom by breaking into a 24" * 24" junction box. They ripped out all the wire nuts, then removed all the little jewlwery store type paper tags my competiton used on their jobs. Only 55 pairs from the office were used. Some were duplicate callback lines, and others were spares. A telephone type tracer would have required me to walk over 35 miles to locate each half of each run. because the campus was huge. Was this a single bundle? Usually there are color markings on each wire. I like the resistor idea. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#32
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
Wes wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: I came up with the resistor method when I had to ring out about 70 pairs in a school building, and the ends were over 1/4 mile apart. Some kids had vandalized the intercom by breaking into a 24" * 24" junction box. They ripped out all the wire nuts, then removed all the little jewlwery store type paper tags my competiton used on their jobs. Only 55 pairs from the office were used. Some were duplicate callback lines, and others were spares. A telephone type tracer would have required me to walk over 35 miles to locate each half of each run. because the campus was huge. Was this a single bundle? It was 75 identical single pair shielded audio cables. Each had a black and a white wire, and a braided shield. The building was wired decades before they put footage markers on wire, which would have helped. I could have found one pair and read the markings for the length, then made a chart to identify everything else. Usually there are color markings on each wire. I like the resistor idea. A terminal block with the resistors is easy to make and keep in your toolbox. I designed a unit years ago to put a string of pulses on up to 50 wires, and a display for the other end to count them, but it was going to be way too big for most jobs, so I never built it. If I was allowed some additional income by the VA I would redesign it and put it on the market. It would be a lot smaller and require less power with a MPU, instead of the early '70s discrete logic. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#33
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
Now days. A helper and FRS walkie talkies are step savers. Some
electricians short the outlet, and then go see which breaker tripped. I built myself an "off and pop" using electrical cord, junction box, and 20 amp toggle switch. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message ... We used to use a cheap radio for that. I've done that also. It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker that feeds an outlet. If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each outlet in turn). Bob |
#34
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
Radio two -- set to full gospel. Radio three, jazz and blues.
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message m... We used to use a cheap radio for that. I've done that also. It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker that feeds an outlet. If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each outlet in turn). Don't you have more than one radio? ;-) -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#35
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wring out a lot of wire
Stormin Mormon wrote: Radio two -- set to full gospel. Radio three, jazz and blues. There were a lot of formats befor Clear Channel bought entire markets and run the same homgonized crap on every station. You could have a dozen different stations in some places. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#36
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
Sigh. But, now with politcal correctness, we can't discriminate
against gays, lesbians, or homogenized. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message news Stormin Mormon wrote: Radio two -- set to full gospel. Radio three, jazz and blues. There were a lot of formats befor Clear Channel bought entire markets and run the same homgonized crap on every station. You could have a dozen different stations in some places. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#37
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
On Sep 30, 6:52*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: Sigh. But, now with politcal correctness, we can't discriminate against gays, lesbians, or homogenized. or Mormons. |
#38
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
Stormin Mormon wrote: Sigh. But, now with politcal correctness, we can't discriminate against gays, lesbians, or homogenized. That's why I won't listen to the local stations. I listen to http://www.wsmonline.com I have a Sanyo internet radio that I leave on whenever I'm at home to help mask my tinitus. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#39
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
Tinnitus treatment center ad: "Give us a ring!"
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... That's why I won't listen to the local stations. I listen to http://www.wsmonline.com I have a Sanyo internet radio that I leave on whenever I'm at home to help mask my tinitus. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#40
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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wring out a lot of wire
Stormin Mormon wrote: Tinnitus treatment center ad: "Give us a ring!" Or an ice pick. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
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