Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,286
Default wring out a lot of wire

I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

Karl
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default wring out a lot of wire

On 2010-09-26, Karl Townsend wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?


That's a very tough job. I would first invest a lot of effort into
finding a manual and schematic.

i
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,444
Default wring out a lot of wire

On 9/26/2010 5:03 PM, Ignoramus24898 wrote:
On 2010-09-26, Karl wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?


That's a very tough job. I would first invest a lot of effort into
finding a manual and schematic.


Till then, ground your ohmmeter and determine which
of those 50 are 'returns'. That will cut down on
your work *a lot*.

You could discover that you're challenge is *only* 30 connections.

--Winston


--
Corporate executive forgets to commit a felony for 24 hours.
Film at 11.
  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 954
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 26, 4:59*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

Karl


Usually the connector is numbered on face or rear or face AND rear.
Sometimes you can come up with a numbering scheme by looking up the
connector in a catalog. Very few manufacturers used proprietary
connectors, they may not be common, but somebody had to have made
them. Anything beyond just a few pairs of wires will have some kind
of numbering scheme or the techs wouldn't be able put the cables
together correctly in the first place or service the thing
afterwards. Usually there's a color code on the wiring, too. I'll
second the other poster about making an extreme effort to get some
kind of service data. Somebody had to fix the things! Otherwise,
you're in for a long session with a buzzer and battery.

Stan
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Karl Townsend wrote:

I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?



I would group a lot of resistors and tie one end of all of the to
ground to ground. Use in multiples of 10, like 10, 100, 1k, 10k, 100k,
1M, 10M ohms to make it obvious which wire is which. Then probe the
wires at the other end. In seven passes you can identify the entire
cable.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default wring out a lot of wire

On 2010-09-27, wrote:
On Sep 26, 4:59?pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

Karl


Usually the connector is numbered on face or rear or face AND rear.
Sometimes you can come up with a numbering scheme by looking up the
connector in a catalog. Very few manufacturers used proprietary
connectors, they may not be common, but somebody had to have made
them. Anything beyond just a few pairs of wires will have some kind
of numbering scheme or the techs wouldn't be able put the cables
together correctly in the first place or service the thing
afterwards. Usually there's a color code on the wiring, too. I'll
second the other poster about making an extreme effort to get some
kind of service data. Somebody had to fix the things! Otherwise,
you're in for a long session with a buzzer and battery.

Stan


Matsuura is still in business. Call them, call dealers, bribe dealers
etc.

i
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 362
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 26, 3:59*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

Karl

50 conductor sounds like telephone cable. Are the wires stranded or
solid? Are they pairs of wires twisted together? If twisted together,
then you have pairs already and only have 25 pairs to deal with.

Paul
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Ignoramus24898 wrote:

On 2010-09-27, wrote:
On Sep 26, 4:59?pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

Karl


Usually the connector is numbered on face or rear or face AND rear.
Sometimes you can come up with a numbering scheme by looking up the
connector in a catalog. Very few manufacturers used proprietary
connectors, they may not be common, but somebody had to have made
them. Anything beyond just a few pairs of wires will have some kind
of numbering scheme or the techs wouldn't be able put the cables
together correctly in the first place or service the thing
afterwards. Usually there's a color code on the wiring, too. I'll
second the other poster about making an extreme effort to get some
kind of service data. Somebody had to fix the things! Otherwise,
you're in for a long session with a buzzer and battery.

Stan


Matsuura is still in business. Call them, call dealers, bribe dealers
etc.



Didn't he say all all he had left was the wire? That everything else
had been removed, and the wires were unmarked?


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


" wrote:

On Sep 26, 3:59 pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

50 conductor sounds like telephone cable. Are the wires stranded or
solid? Are they pairs of wires twisted together? If twisted together,
then you have pairs already and only have 25 pairs to deal with.



There is also 50 conductor (and larger) control cable. Telephone
wire is typically solid 24 or 26 AWG that doesn't hold up well with
vibration.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,286
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:16:56 -0700, Winston
wrote:

On 9/26/2010 5:03 PM, Ignoramus24898 wrote:
On 2010-09-26, Karl wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?


That's a very tough job. I would first invest a lot of effort into
finding a manual and schematic.


Till then, ground your ohmmeter and determine which
of those 50 are 'returns'. That will cut down on
your work *a lot*.

You could discover that you're challenge is *only* 30 connections.

--Winston


I just checked this. On first run, nothing grounded, but I don't have
the dead 6M fanuc computer here, its at the kid's place. Maybe this
cable was grounded on one end at the computer for all the extra
conductors. You're right, if I could eliminate half, the job would be
simpler.


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,286
Default wring out a lot of wire


Matsuura is still in business. Call them, call dealers, bribe dealers
etc.



Didn't he say all all he had left was the wire? That everything else
had been removed, and the wires were unmarked?


This machine has waited YEARS for a refit, hoping for manuals. No joy,
and we've tried A LOT. Your suggestion for different resistors has
merit. But I'm still hoping for some kind of suggestion to test
several at a time for voltage.

Karl

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,286
Default wring out a lot of wire


50 conductor sounds like telephone cable. Are the wires stranded or
solid? Are they pairs of wires twisted together? If twisted together,
then you have pairs already and only have 25 pairs to deal with.



There is also 50 conductor (and larger) control cable. Telephone
wire is typically solid 24 or 26 AWG that doesn't hold up well with
vibration.


I haven't cut the fanuc connector off yet, so i don't know what I'll
see inside. Surely 1/2 of these conductors are grounded. best
suggestion so far is to focus on figuring this out first.

Next, I'm thinking 50 lights on a terminal strip or??? Could use a
good idea here.

Karl
  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Karl Townsend wrote:


Matsuura is still in business. Call them, call dealers, bribe dealers
etc.



Didn't he say all all he had left was the wire? That everything else
had been removed, and the wires were unmarked?


This machine has waited YEARS for a refit, hoping for manuals. No joy,
and we've tried A LOT. Your suggestion for different resistors has
merit. But I'm still hoping for some kind of suggestion to test
several at a time for voltage.



It has saved me weeks worth of work ringing out large bundles of
audio cables in school intercoms.

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
  #14   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,399
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:43:54 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?



I would group a lot of resistors and tie one end of all of the to
ground to ground. Use in multiples of 10, like 10, 100, 1k, 10k, 100k,
1M, 10M ohms to make it obvious which wire is which. Then probe the
wires at the other end. In seven passes you can identify the entire
cable.


I use one of these...

http://www.valley-ent.com/catalog/ca...ker-p-400.html



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:43:54 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?



I would group a lot of resistors and tie one end of all of the to
ground to ground. Use in multiples of 10, like 10, 100, 1k, 10k, 100k,
1M, 10M ohms to make it obvious which wire is which. Then probe the
wires at the other end. In seven passes you can identify the entire
cable.


I use one of these...

http://www.valley-ent.com/catalog/ca...ker-p-400.html



I came up with the resistor method when I had to ring out about 70
pairs in a school building, and the ends were over 1/4 mile apart. Some
kids had vandalized the intercom by breaking into a 24" * 24" junction
box. They ripped out all the wire nuts, then removed all the little
jewlwery store type paper tags my competiton used on their jobs. Only
55 pairs from the office were used. Some were duplicate callback lines,
and others were spares. A telephone type tracer would have required me
to walk over 35 miles to locate each half of each run. because the
campus was huge.


I bought one of these, but I haven't used it yet:

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=SS35407-TEST&cpc=SCH


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.


  #16   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,444
Default wring out a lot of wire

On 9/26/2010 8:55 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:
(...)

Next, I'm thinking 50 lights on a terminal strip or??? Could use a
good idea here.


Does your ohmmeter have a 'beep' continuity mode?

(This goes a lot faster than my explanation implies.)

Start by shorting the two probes together to confirm the
meter will beep properly.

Place one probe on pin 1 and move the other probe to pin 2 - 50
in sequence. Record all beeps. Move your probe from pin 1 to pin 2
and repeat your scan with your other probe.

If a pin beeps to any other pin, write that down.
'Pin 5 to pin 32' for example.

Eventually you will find a pin that beeps to a lot
of other pins. (Often, many of the even - numbered pins or odd -
numbered pins.) If these pins also beep to a ground point on the
control panel, you have good evidence to support the theory that
you found your ground connections.

Confirm this by switching to normal 'ohms' mode and check the
'beeping' connections once more. You should see that there is
no difference in resistance between 'shorted probes' and your
suspected connections. Remove any connection from your list that
appears to exceed that resistance by say 0.7 ohm or more.

Example: With probes shorted together, you see that the meter
reads 0.2 ohm. All the valid connections will read no more
than say 0.9 ohm. (Practically speaking, your valid readings
should also be in the 0.2 ohm - 0.5 ohm range).

A pin reading higher resistance should be dropped from your
list (unless it is just a dirty connection that you can polish
and bring under 0.9 ohm).

Use alligator clips to connect your beeping ohmmeter to your
ground connection and hold the other probe in sequence to each
of the pins that did not beep.

Press each button on the control panel till you hear your meter
beep. Write down the pin number and button logo.

You can run this inspection in about 1% of the time it would take
to build your terminal strip.

That is how I do it.

--Winston


  #17   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,146
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 26, 6:59*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

Karl


I don't quite understand the scope of this problem from your
description. Do you need to reconstruct the connectivity, the
functionality, or both?

When I check a cable for opens or shorts I sketch each exposed pin or
socket face and label the pins with their number or letter, which on
Mil circular connectors may be visible on the back of the insert after
removing the backshell. With the shell off look for any Y splices,
resistors, diodes etc within it. I draw a box or circle for each pin
and fill in the unused ones.

The sketch makes keeping track of progress -much- easier.

Then I clamp or weight the connectors side by side facing me, tilted
up so I can read any pin numbering and rotated to match the sketch.
This leaves both hands free to hold the meter probes. If the probe is
too big to fit into a socket I clip on one of the safety pins from my
key ring.

Make a table listing all the pins in one connector, preferably the
largest. Winston described how to buzz the wires out efficiently. If
you didn't find splices and the number of wires is the same on both
ends you can assume the first hit is the only one, though it's easy to
wipe quickly across the rest of the connector. Record each hit in the
table, like J22-5 --- J17-19.

Also mark all no connect pins, J22-8 -- nc.

When done, visually check that there's a wire in the connectors for
each one in the table. This should catch any pin you missed or a
splice that was covered up.

If you write the table in a spreadsheet you can expand it with the
connections you find in the boxes and add signal names as you
determine them.

The method that uses resistors requires extra connectors and pins. It
works well for production where you have spare parts and recover the
overhead of making the test connector in shorter test times and less
skilled operators. I've never bothered with it for a few cables where
it's easy to wipe the probe quickly listening for a beep, then
localize it. For most newly made cables opens are far more likely than
shorts so I just jumper pairs of pins together on both ends so a
single continuity check will zigzag through all of the wires.

jsw
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,473
Default wring out a lot of wire

The fastest way to match-up ends of wires in a cable is a binary search.
Where fastest means the least number of tests. The number of tests
required is the number of bits needed to represent the number of wires.
E.g. 64 wires would require 6 tests. This is especially efficient
where each test means traveling some distance between the ends of the
wires. I used it where I had a bunch of unmarked wires coming into a
fuse panel, the other ends of which went all over the house. Each test
involved traveling the house, testing each end.

A binary search involves dividing the wires into 2 groups for each test,
then redividing them for the next test. When you're done, each wire has
been in a unique collection of groups. For example, say you have 8
wires, arbitrarily numbered 1 through 8. For the 1st test, wires 1 - 4
are tied together (5-8 are loose). In the next test 1-2,5-6 are (all)
tied & the 3rd test 1,3,5,7. For each test, the tied-together wires are
rung to each of the loose wires on the other end. So, if a other-end
wire rung to groups 1 & 3, it would be wire 3 (1-4, not 1-2, 1 or 3).

I could be more explicit, but you get the idea. If you number and group
the wires right, the ring-ing groups are the binary number of the wire.

HTH,
Bob














BTW - it's "ringing out" cables, from the use a buzzer/bell to test
continuity.
  #19   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,473
Default wring out a lot of wire

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
The fastest way to match-up ends of wires in a cable is a binary search.
...


Oh, wait ... your cables have connectors on both ends, right? In that
case, tieing ends together is not practical and you can "never mind"
what I said.

Bob
  #20   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,146
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 27, 8:49*am, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
The fastest way to match-up ends of wires in a cable is a binary search.
* Where fastest means the least number of tests. *The number of tests
required is the number of bits needed to represent the number of wires.
* E.g. 64 wires would require 6 tests. *This is especially efficient
where each test means traveling some distance between the ends of the
wires. *I used it where I had a bunch of unmarked wires coming into a
fuse panel, the other ends of which went all over the house. *Each test
involved traveling the house, testing each end.

A binary search involves dividing the wires into 2 groups for each test,
then redividing them for the next test. *When you're done, each wire has
been in a unique collection of groups. *For example, say you have 8
wires, arbitrarily numbered 1 through 8. *For the 1st test, wires 1 - 4
are tied together (5-8 are loose). *In the next test 1-2,5-6 are (all)
tied & the 3rd test 1,3,5,7. *For each test, the tied-together wires are
rung to each of the loose wires on the other end. *So, if a other-end
wire rung to groups 1 & 3, it would be wire 3 (1-4, not 1-2, 1 or 3).

I could be more explicit, but you get the idea. *If you number and group
the wires right, the ring-ing groups are the binary number of the wire.

HTH,
Bob

BTW - it's "ringing out" cables, from the use a buzzer/bell to test
continuity.


That's a very efficient method when you have a way to jumper the wires
together in groups, but it doesn't work well for connectors if you
don't have spare mating pins.

I do the binary search a little differently to keep it simple. Connect
1+2+3+4 and check. If open I'd connect 5+6 and check. If open I'd try
7, then 8 just to confirm it. The number of tests is the same but
there's less handling damage to the wire ends.

I traced out my fuse box with a vacuum cleaner that makes a low rumble
which travels through the floors and frame of the house.

jsw


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,104
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 26, 6:59*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

Karl


The suggestions you have received here are all pretty good. I would
add, however, that you ought to "just do it." These kinds of jobs,
while tedious, are often easier than you think. Just dive in, and in
an hour, or a few hours, you'll be done and can move on.

That said, I remember reading, in the early 80s about a Cray
supercomputer that contained thirty MILES of twisted pair 30 gauge
wire wrap wire, all the same color. Talk about yer nightmares.
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Sep 27, 8:49 am, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
The fastest way to match-up ends of wires in a cable is a binary search.
Where fastest means the least number of tests. The number of tests
required is the number of bits needed to represent the number of wires.
E.g. 64 wires would require 6 tests. This is especially efficient
where each test means traveling some distance between the ends of the
wires. I used it where I had a bunch of unmarked wires coming into a
fuse panel, the other ends of which went all over the house. Each test
involved traveling the house, testing each end.

A binary search involves dividing the wires into 2 groups for each test,
then redividing them for the next test. When you're done, each wire has
been in a unique collection of groups. For example, say you have 8
wires, arbitrarily numbered 1 through 8. For the 1st test, wires 1 - 4
are tied together (5-8 are loose). In the next test 1-2,5-6 are (all)
tied & the 3rd test 1,3,5,7. For each test, the tied-together wires are
rung to each of the loose wires on the other end. So, if a other-end
wire rung to groups 1 & 3, it would be wire 3 (1-4, not 1-2, 1 or 3).

I could be more explicit, but you get the idea. If you number and group
the wires right, the ring-ing groups are the binary number of the wire.

HTH,
Bob

BTW - it's "ringing out" cables, from the use a buzzer/bell to test
continuity.


That's a very efficient method when you have a way to jumper the wires
together in groups, but it doesn't work well for connectors if you
don't have spare mating pins.

I do the binary search a little differently to keep it simple. Connect
1+2+3+4 and check. If open I'd connect 5+6 and check. If open I'd try
7, then 8 just to confirm it. The number of tests is the same but
there's less handling damage to the wire ends.

I traced out my fuse box with a vacuum cleaner that makes a low rumble
which travels through the floors and frame of the house.



We used to use a cheap radio for that.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,473
Default wring out a lot of wire

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:

....
I traced out my fuse box with a vacuum cleaner that makes a low rumble
which travels through the floors and frame of the house.


We used to use a cheap radio for that.


I've done that also. It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker
that feeds an outlet. If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers
feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each outlet
in turn).

Bob
  #24   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:

...
I traced out my fuse box with a vacuum cleaner that makes a low rumble
which travels through the floors and frame of the house.


We used to use a cheap radio for that.


I've done that also. It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker
that feeds an outlet. If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers
feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each outlet
in turn).



Don't you have more than one radio? ;-)


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,146
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 27, 11:01*am, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:

....
I've done that also. *It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker
that feeds an outlet. *If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers
feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each outlet
in turn).

Bob


If the owner permits you can reduce the number of trips by checking
nearby outlets and switches and writing the breaker number on the live
(or dead) ones, on the back of the plate perhaps, to mark them as
already identified. I stuck Brady markers on mine, then made a list to
put near the box.

jsw


  #26   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,286
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:19:39 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:

I pulled to the old servo drives out of my Matsurra bed mill and got
all the wire run cables separated as much as possible. Most of the I/O
cables have less than ten conductors and you can deduce what they are
for by where the cable run goes.

I have two fifty conductor cables that go to the operator panel. I'm
guessing fifty inputs on the operator panel so there are a great many
more wires than used. I have no manual for this machine and these
wires aren't numbered. Looks like a REAL MESS to figure out the
function of each wire.

Each input is pretty simple, if it is made it conducts voltage. But
doing this many at once becomes a snow storm. Any suggestions on best
approach?

Karl


Are the cables still connected to controls or whatever at one end? If so,
any continuity test might be confused by sneak paths through the controls
(multiple conductors will be connected through closed contacts or low
impedance relay coils).

If there are terminal blocks available, its best to disconnect one conductor
at a time and test it at the (disconnected) far end of a cable. That
doesn't take as much time as it sounds. I use a continuity tester with an
audible signal and brushing the probe over all the free conductors a few
times, listening for the beep narrows it down pretty rapidly.


Yep, this is the point everybody missed. The operator panel is all
soldered up and I don't want to take anyting apart in there. it would
ruin it. I don't need to just trace a wire from one end to the other,
I need to know which wire is connected to which switch.

Karl
  #27   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,444
Default wring out a lot of wire

On 9/27/2010 11:40 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:

(...)

Yep, this is the point everybody missed. The operator panel is all
soldered up and I don't want to take anyting apart in there. it would
ruin it. I don't need to just trace a wire from one end to the other,
I need to know which wire is connected to which switch.


Well, not *everybody* missed the point.

Quoting me:

Does your ohmmeter have a 'beep' continuity mode?

(This goes a lot faster than my explanation implies.)

Start by shorting the two probes together to confirm the
meter will beep properly.

Place one probe on pin 1 and move the other probe to pin 2 - 50
in sequence. Record all beeps. Move your probe from pin 1 to pin 2
and repeat your scan with your other probe.

If a pin beeps to any other pin, write that down.
'Pin 5 to pin 32' for example.

Eventually you will find a pin that beeps to a lot
of other pins. (Often, many of the even - numbered pins or odd -
numbered pins.) If these pins also beep to a ground point on the
control panel, you have good evidence to support the theory that
you found your ground connections.

Confirm this by switching to normal 'ohms' mode and check the
'beeping' connections once more. You should see that there is
no difference in resistance between 'shorted probes' and your
suspected connections. Remove any connection from your list that
appears to exceed that resistance by say 0.7 ohm or more.

Example: With probes shorted together, you see that the meter
reads 0.2 ohm. All the valid connections will read no more
than say 0.9 ohm. (Practically speaking, your valid readings
should also be in the 0.2 ohm - 0.5 ohm range).

A pin reading higher resistance should be dropped from your
list (unless it is just a dirty connection that you can polish
and bring under 0.9 ohm).

Use alligator clips to connect your beeping ohmmeter to your
ground connection and hold the other probe in sequence to each
of the pins that did not beep.

Press each button on the control panel till you hear your meter
beep. Write down the pin number and button logo.

You can run this inspection in about 1% of the time it would take
to build your terminal strip.

That is how I do it.

Unquote.


--Winston
  #28   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,146
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 27, 2:40*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
...

Yep, this is the point everybody missed. The operator panel is all
soldered up and I don't want to take anyting apart in there. it would
ruin it. I don't need to just trace a wire from one end to the other,
I need to know which wire is connected to which switch.

Karl


We didn't miss it, you didn't give much background detail so I posted
a generalized cable tracing procedure.

Is this unit completely passive, only lights and switches, or does it
contain active circuitry? Even relays count, coils with kickback
diodes have a polarity and you may have to energize them to find the
normally-open contact.

How easily can you connect to it? Are you holding meter probes on pins
or can you plug in a wired connector and make solid hands-free
connections?

jsw
  #29   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,286
Default wring out a lot of wire


Is this unit completely passive, only lights and switches, or does it
contain active circuitry? Even relays count, coils with kickback
diodes have a polarity and you may have to energize them to find the
normally-open contact.


Passive, several lamps, pushbuttons, rotary switches, and a few
toggles. One MPG (manual pulse generator - like an encoder)




How easily can you connect to it? Are you holding meter probes on pins
or can you plug in a wired connector and make solid hands-free
connections?

jsw


Right now I have two 30' cables with an end on it that plugs into a
Fanuc 6 computer board header. The cables are at least 20' too long.
Somebody suggested all the spares are likely tied to ground. It looks
like on the computer end only. I don't have the compter here right now
and i can't find any conductors going to ground. I'll get the computer
back and focus on finding the spares first. Like somebody said, this
will cut the problem in half.

From there, I guess I'm planning on hooking each wire up to an Opto22
input. They have an LED that will light when they see power. Its only
fifty wires, once its all connected i should be able to toggle an
input and see which opto fires.

Karl


  #30   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,146
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 27, 7:24*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
Is this unit completely passive, only lights and switches, or does it
contain active circuitry? Even relays count, coils with kickback
diodes have a polarity and you may have to energize them to find the
normally-open contact.


Passive, several lamps, pushbuttons, rotary switches, and a few
toggles. One MPG (manual pulse generator - like an encoder)



How easily can you connect to it? Are you holding meter probes on pins
or can you plug in a wired connector and make solid hands-free
connections?


jsw


Right now I have two 30' cables with an end on it that plugs into a
Fanuc 6 computer board header. The cables are at least 20' too long.
Somebody suggested all the spares are likely tied to ground. It looks
like on the computer end only. I don't have the compter here right now
and i can't find any conductors going to ground. I'll get the computer
back and focus on finding the spares first. Like somebody said, this
will cut the problem in half.

From there, I guess I'm planning on *hooking each wire up to an Opto22
input. They have an LED that will light when they see power. Its only
fifty wires, once its all connected i should be able to toggle an
input and see which opto fires.

Karl


If you can put stripped, numbered wires in the mate of that Fanuc
connector you can check resistance between each wire and all the
others, clipped together.

Closed switch contacts are shorts which open when you flip that
switch, lamps should show a filament resistance. You might be able to
make them glow slightly by powering them with a battery and series
limiting resistor or light bulb. But be sure the voltage and current
from the battery won't hurt anything. A car side marker bulb might
work.

After you marked and eliminated the bulbs and closed contacts, the
open contact wires should be easier.

jsw


  #31   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,344
Default wring out a lot of wire

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

I came up with the resistor method when I had to ring out about 70
pairs in a school building, and the ends were over 1/4 mile apart. Some
kids had vandalized the intercom by breaking into a 24" * 24" junction
box. They ripped out all the wire nuts, then removed all the little
jewlwery store type paper tags my competiton used on their jobs. Only
55 pairs from the office were used. Some were duplicate callback lines,
and others were spares. A telephone type tracer would have required me
to walk over 35 miles to locate each half of each run. because the
campus was huge.


Was this a single bundle? Usually there are color markings on each wire.

I like the resistor idea.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
  #32   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Wes wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

I came up with the resistor method when I had to ring out about 70
pairs in a school building, and the ends were over 1/4 mile apart. Some
kids had vandalized the intercom by breaking into a 24" * 24" junction
box. They ripped out all the wire nuts, then removed all the little
jewlwery store type paper tags my competiton used on their jobs. Only
55 pairs from the office were used. Some were duplicate callback lines,
and others were spares. A telephone type tracer would have required me
to walk over 35 miles to locate each half of each run. because the
campus was huge.


Was this a single bundle?



It was 75 identical single pair shielded audio cables. Each had a
black and a white wire, and a braided shield. The building was wired
decades before they put footage markers on wire, which would have
helped. I could have found one pair and read the markings for the
length, then made a chart to identify everything else.


Usually there are color markings on each wire.

I like the resistor idea.



A terminal block with the resistors is easy to make and keep in your
toolbox.


I designed a unit years ago to put a string of pulses on up to 50
wires, and a display for the other end to count them, but it was going
to be way too big for most jobs, so I never built it. If I was allowed
some additional income by the VA I would redesign it and put it on the
market. It would be a lot smaller and require less power with a MPU,
instead of the early '70s discrete logic.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
  #33   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 179
Default wring out a lot of wire

Now days. A helper and FRS walkie talkies are step savers. Some
electricians short the outlet, and then go see which breaker tripped.
I built myself an "off and pop" using electrical cord, junction box,
and 20 amp toggle switch.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...


We used to use a cheap radio for that.


I've done that also. It's fine when you want to find the fuse/breaker
that feeds an outlet. If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers
feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each
outlet
in turn).

Bob


  #34   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 179
Default wring out a lot of wire

Radio two -- set to full gospel. Radio three, jazz and blues.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...


We used to use a cheap radio for that.


I've done that also. It's fine when you want to find the
fuse/breaker
that feeds an outlet. If you're trying to find which of 8 breakers
feeds which of 20 outlets, it's not so good (20 trips to try each
outlet
in turn).



Don't you have more than one radio? ;-)


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there
is
enough left over to pay them.


  #35   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Stormin Mormon wrote:

Radio two -- set to full gospel. Radio three, jazz and blues.



There were a lot of formats befor Clear Channel bought entire markets
and run the same homgonized crap on every station. You could have a
dozen different stations in some places.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.


  #36   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,530
Default wring out a lot of wire

Sigh. But, now with politcal correctness, we can't discriminate
against gays, lesbians, or homogenized.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Radio two -- set to full gospel. Radio three, jazz and blues.



There were a lot of formats befor Clear Channel bought entire
markets
and run the same homgonized crap on every station. You could have a
dozen different stations in some places.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there
is
enough left over to pay them.


  #37   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,104
Default wring out a lot of wire

On Sep 30, 6:52*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Sigh. But, now with politcal correctness, we can't discriminate
against gays, lesbians, or homogenized.


or Mormons.
  #38   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Stormin Mormon wrote:

Sigh. But, now with politcal correctness, we can't discriminate
against gays, lesbians, or homogenized.



That's why I won't listen to the local stations. I listen to
http://www.wsmonline.com

I have a Sanyo internet radio that I leave on whenever I'm at home to
help mask my tinitus.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
  #39   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,530
Default wring out a lot of wire

Tinnitus treatment center ad: "Give us a ring!"

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

That's why I won't listen to the local stations. I listen to
http://www.wsmonline.com

I have a Sanyo internet radio that I leave on whenever I'm at home
to
help mask my tinitus.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there
is
enough left over to pay them.


  #40   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default wring out a lot of wire


Stormin Mormon wrote:

Tinnitus treatment center ad: "Give us a ring!"



Or an ice pick.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
S Plan Zone Valve Grey Wire To Brown Wire? [email protected] UK diy 25 June 29th 18 06:14 PM
Life of electricl wring? alan.holmes UK diy 4 February 5th 10 03:20 PM
Stripping 40 AWG/45 SWG or finer magnet wire/enamelled copper wire? N_Cook Electronics Repair 22 May 13th 08 07:10 AM
el wire rope lighting electroluminescent FLEXIBLE NEON WIRE (KPT SERIES) [email protected] Home Repair 0 September 5th 06 11:14 PM
el wire rope lighting electroluminescent FLEXIBLE NEON WIRE (KPT SERIES) [email protected] Home Repair 0 September 5th 06 11:13 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"