Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default God Did Not Create the Universe

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:29:24 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:


"Terry" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:46:59 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

So, either the Bible is wrong or you are wrong. So far from what I have
seen you are 100% wrong 100% of the time and go around calling people
"crazymother****er" like you have a mental disorder.

RogerN

If we look at the bible it appears that Jehovah:

-Killed every person on earth except for Noah and his family,
presumably because everyone else was evil (including the babies??)
Later on it appears that Noah isn't such a "just man and perfect" (Gen
6:9) because he gets drunk.

-Likes to have animals that he created killed and burned. (Gen
8:20-21, 15:9, and elsewhere)

-Couldn't find even ten good people in either Sodom or Gomorrah (not
ten babies in an entire city?? Gen 18 and 19), so he killed everyone
in those cities.

-Doesn't complain when the righteous man Lot's daughters get him drunk
and get themselves knocked up by him. (Gen 19:31-35)

-Punishes the descendents of those who do evil; descendents are
screwed royally before they're ever born.

-Generated a worldwide famine (Gen 41:56), with huge amounts of
suffering (and presumably death) apparently to make Joseph rich.

-'Hardened the heart' of Pharoah several times, so that P wouldn't let
the Israelites go, even though Moses was told (by Jehovah) to ask for
their release.

-Kills a bunch of children for the heinous crime of being the
first-born children of Egyptians. (Exodus 11)

Now, is all of this true? It's in the bible...


True but you're taking the text out of context. For example if I just say
"Tim punched Bob" it could lead you to think Tim started the fight and
punched Bob for no reason. But if I tell the whole story that "Bob punched
Tim 1000 times before Tim punched Bob" you know Bob deserved what he got and
more, Tim was justified in his action. By telling what God did and not
telling of the events that lead up to God's action you are deceiving the
reader to think God wasn't justified, if you tell the whole story you see
they got what was coming to them long overdue. In many cases God warned for
years and years, even tens and hundreds of years before his judgment. The
judgment on the Egyptian children was decided by Pharaoh for the Israelites,
their harsh judgment got turned around on them. Descendents are
automatically punished by having the parents they have, their parents point
them down the wrong path, that's why so many youth voted for Obama. The
Bible tells the ugly truth about people, it doesn't mean it was God's will
for those things to happen, often if you follow along in context bad things
result from the sins of the "righteous". Also with some deeper
understanding you can figure out what makes a person righteous. In some
other verses the wording from the translation isn't all that clear to us,
sometimes "God did" could better be understood as "God permitted" or "God
allowed".

RogerN


OK, then enlighten me. What (and where in the bible) is the context
that justifies the killing of Egyptian children for something that
they didn't do, and that their parents didn't do, but for what the
Pharoah did?

Remember, Jehovah supposedly 'hardened the heart' of Pharoah to get
this result.

And what context (reference please) says that punishment of the
*descendants* of people who do bad things is, in fact, justice? If
you decide to kill a dozen people, should your son or daughter be
killed along with you? Your grandchildren? Of course not.

And what context indicates that everyone on earth, except for Noah and
his family, should be put to death? Kids too.

I don't expect to convince the diehard christians. But it's stuff
like that that made me realize, a long time ago, that these acts
simply were not justifiable. A supreme perfect being would *avoid*
killing the innocent along with the guilty. (In warfare, even *we*
try to minimize civilian deaths; a supreme being would be able to
avoid them entirely.)

It would not presuppose guilt because of what the President did or
your great-grandfather did. And it certainly wouldn't be as
bloodthirsty as Jehovah is purported to be. (42 kids ripped to shreds
by bears. No, they didn't kill or maim someone, they made fun of a
prophet's bald head. A *lot* over the top, by my way of thinking.)

By any reasonable human standards, Jehovah depicted in the bible is
anything but humane, anything but just. It took me a long time to
overcome what was hammered into me in childhood, but I finally decided
that this couldn't be true. And that the bible was a collection of
stories about a nonexistent thing.
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Default God Did Not Create the Universe


"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:29:24 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:


"Terry" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:46:59 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

So, either the Bible is wrong or you are wrong. So far from what I have
seen you are 100% wrong 100% of the time and go around calling people
"crazymother****er" like you have a mental disorder.

RogerN

If we look at the bible it appears that Jehovah:

-Killed every person on earth except for Noah and his family,
presumably because everyone else was evil (including the babies??)
Later on it appears that Noah isn't such a "just man and perfect" (Gen
6:9) because he gets drunk.

-Likes to have animals that he created killed and burned. (Gen
8:20-21, 15:9, and elsewhere)

-Couldn't find even ten good people in either Sodom or Gomorrah (not
ten babies in an entire city?? Gen 18 and 19), so he killed everyone
in those cities.

-Doesn't complain when the righteous man Lot's daughters get him drunk
and get themselves knocked up by him. (Gen 19:31-35)

-Punishes the descendents of those who do evil; descendents are
screwed royally before they're ever born.

-Generated a worldwide famine (Gen 41:56), with huge amounts of
suffering (and presumably death) apparently to make Joseph rich.

-'Hardened the heart' of Pharoah several times, so that P wouldn't let
the Israelites go, even though Moses was told (by Jehovah) to ask for
their release.

-Kills a bunch of children for the heinous crime of being the
first-born children of Egyptians. (Exodus 11)

Now, is all of this true? It's in the bible...


True but you're taking the text out of context. For example if I just say
"Tim punched Bob" it could lead you to think Tim started the fight and
punched Bob for no reason. But if I tell the whole story that "Bob
punched
Tim 1000 times before Tim punched Bob" you know Bob deserved what he got
and
more, Tim was justified in his action. By telling what God did and not
telling of the events that lead up to God's action you are deceiving the
reader to think God wasn't justified, if you tell the whole story you see
they got what was coming to them long overdue. In many cases God warned
for
years and years, even tens and hundreds of years before his judgment. The
judgment on the Egyptian children was decided by Pharaoh for the
Israelites,
their harsh judgment got turned around on them. Descendents are
automatically punished by having the parents they have, their parents
point
them down the wrong path, that's why so many youth voted for Obama. The
Bible tells the ugly truth about people, it doesn't mean it was God's will
for those things to happen, often if you follow along in context bad
things
result from the sins of the "righteous". Also with some deeper
understanding you can figure out what makes a person righteous. In some
other verses the wording from the translation isn't all that clear to us,
sometimes "God did" could better be understood as "God permitted" or "God
allowed".

RogerN


OK, then enlighten me. What (and where in the bible) is the context
that justifies the killing of Egyptian children for something that
they didn't do, and that their parents didn't do, but for what the
Pharoah did?


So if there were innocent Egyptian children killed, what happened to them?
Perhaps those Egyptian children are today living better than any king ever
dreamed of on Earth. Are you also concerned about the innocent children of
liberals that are slaughtered by abortion?


Remember, Jehovah supposedly 'hardened the heart' of Pharoah to get
this result.


In a manner of speaking you can blame everything on God if God is
responsible for all creation. Does God hardening Pharoah's heart mean
Pharoah had no free choice in it? To understand things from God's
perspective you have to realize God's goal isn't to make man happy on Earth.
God has his kindom of Heaven where bad things don't happen to good people
and innocent children don't die, but we aren't there.

And what context (reference please) says that punishment of the
*descendants* of people who do bad things is, in fact, justice? If
you decide to kill a dozen people, should your son or daughter be
killed along with you? Your grandchildren? Of course not.


It just happens naturaly, my children's life is a result of decisions I make
and have made. If I decide to do as little as possible to get by, my
children suffer. If I decide to work hard and provide for my family my
children benefit. What I do can help or harm my children just as what my
father and grandfather did could help or hurt me.

And what context indicates that everyone on earth, except for Noah and
his family, should be put to death? Kids too.


If this life is all there is then it's tragic. Is one year on Earth
compared to eternity shorter than 100 years compared to eternity? Do you
see in the story of Noah the story of God's plan of salvation. There is a
parallel between a person of the world, in bondage to sin as the Children of
Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians, and the world full of sin in the
days of Noah. A person coming to God follows in Baptism, the Children of
Israel passed through the water of the sea, the Earth was "baptized", washed
of the former evil. Some turn to God for a short time and then go back to
bondage in sin just like some of the Israelites thought they were better off
as slaves and wished to return, the Earth also didn't remain in its washed
clean condition.

I don't expect to convince the diehard christians. But it's stuff
like that that made me realize, a long time ago, that these acts
simply were not justifiable. A supreme perfect being would *avoid*
killing the innocent along with the guilty. (In warfare, even *we*
try to minimize civilian deaths; a supreme being would be able to
avoid them entirely.)


In God's kingdom, Heaven, these unjust things don't happen. Unfortunately
things don't go so well here.

It would not presuppose guilt because of what the President did or
your great-grandfather did. And it certainly wouldn't be as
bloodthirsty as Jehovah is purported to be. (42 kids ripped to shreds
by bears. No, they didn't kill or maim someone, they made fun of a
prophet's bald head. A *lot* over the top, by my way of thinking.)


If I remember correctly the Prophet ignored the youth for a while but they
kept after him to harass him. They gave him no respect as a prophet of God,
they just ridiculed him, picked on him for not being an Atheist perhaps.
Just think of it as God blessing some bears! Today we have gangs of youth
that pick on innocent people, I wouldn't mind God sending some bears to
feast on them.

By any reasonable human standards, Jehovah depicted in the bible is
anything but humane, anything but just. It took me a long time to
overcome what was hammered into me in childhood, but I finally decided
that this couldn't be true. And that the bible was a collection of
stories about a nonexistent thing.


Actually the Bible is a collection of stories about God's plan of salvation
through Jesus Christ but not everyone can see it.

RogerN


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Default God Did Not Create the Universe

On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:28:18 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

OK, then enlighten me. What (and where in the bible) is the context
that justifies the killing of Egyptian children for something that
they didn't do, and that their parents didn't do, but for what the
Pharoah did?


So if there were innocent Egyptian children killed, what happened to them?
Perhaps those Egyptian children are today living better than any king ever
dreamed of on Earth. Are you also concerned about the innocent children of
liberals that are slaughtered by abortion?


Seems that this was the sort of logic used by the Inquisition; torture
was justified because, once the person was 'purified' he/she was
guaranteed admission into heaven. Wasn't valid then, isn't valid now.

Remember, Jehovah supposedly 'hardened the heart' of Pharoah to get
this result.


In a manner of speaking you can blame everything on God if God is
responsible for all creation. Does God hardening Pharoah's heart mean
Pharoah had no free choice in it? To understand things from God's
perspective you have to realize God's goal isn't to make man happy on Earth.
God has his kindom of Heaven where bad things don't happen to good people
and innocent children don't die, but we aren't there.


It sounds as though you're conceding the point that innocent people
were killed by Jehovah---*if* the bible is correct. In my view, a
supreme being that can't kill just the bad people isn't very powerful.
In fact, it sounds like... fiction.

And what context (reference please) says that punishment of the
*descendants* of people who do bad things is, in fact, justice? If
you decide to kill a dozen people, should your son or daughter be
killed along with you? Your grandchildren? Of course not.


It just happens naturaly, my children's life is a result of decisions I make
and have made. If I decide to do as little as possible to get by, my
children suffer. If I decide to work hard and provide for my family my
children benefit. What I do can help or harm my children just as what my
father and grandfather did could help or hurt me.


Very different situation when you're talking about a supreme being.
The grandchildren and great-grandchildren not yet born have been
condemned by the supreme being before they've done anything. Doesn't
matter how good they might actually turn out to be, nor how much they
help people---they're still cursed.

And what context indicates that everyone on earth, except for Noah and
his family, should be put to death? Kids too.


If this life is all there is then it's tragic. Is one year on Earth
compared to eternity shorter than 100 years compared to eternity? Do you
see in the story of Noah the story of God's plan of salvation. There is a
parallel between a person of the world, in bondage to sin as the Children of
Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians, and the world full of sin in the
days of Noah. A person coming to God follows in Baptism, the Children of
Israel passed through the water of the sea, the Earth was "baptized", washed
of the former evil. Some turn to God for a short time and then go back to
bondage in sin just like some of the Israelites thought they were better off
as slaves and wished to return, the Earth also didn't remain in its washed
clean condition.


No, I don't see it. According to the bible, ehovah killed a world
full of people including innocents and children. Nothing justifies
that. Of course, perhaps it's fiction....

I don't expect to convince the diehard christians. But it's stuff
like that that made me realize, a long time ago, that these acts
simply were not justifiable. A supreme perfect being would *avoid*
killing the innocent along with the guilty. (In warfare, even *we*
try to minimize civilian deaths; a supreme being would be able to
avoid them entirely.)


In God's kingdom, Heaven, these unjust things don't happen. Unfortunately
things don't go so well here.


And whose fault is that? Seems to me that the supreme being holds
responsibility. If he is all-powerful then he can do *anything*,
including being perfectly just.

It would not presuppose guilt because of what the President did or
your great-grandfather did. And it certainly wouldn't be as
bloodthirsty as Jehovah is purported to be. (42 kids ripped to shreds
by bears. No, they didn't kill or maim someone, they made fun of a
prophet's bald head. A *lot* over the top, by my way of thinking.)


If I remember correctly the Prophet ignored the youth for a while but they
kept after him to harass him. They gave him no respect as a prophet of God,
they just ridiculed him, picked on him for not being an Atheist perhaps.
Just think of it as God blessing some bears! Today we have gangs of youth
that pick on innocent people, I wouldn't mind God sending some bears to
feast on them.


So are you saying that having these children ripped to shreds by bears
was a just punishment? Sorry, I do not see that. If civilized people
can do better than that, why can't a supreme being?

By any reasonable human standards, Jehovah depicted in the bible is
anything but humane, anything but just. It took me a long time to
overcome what was hammered into me in childhood, but I finally decided
that this couldn't be true. And that the bible was a collection of
stories about a nonexistent thing.


Actually the Bible is a collection of stories about God's plan of salvation
through Jesus Christ but not everyone can see it.

Okay, now I'm confused. Are you saying that all these stories are
fictional? Because that's what I'm saying.

For the record... I am not saying that this is proof that there is no
supreme creator being. I *am* saying that the bible describes a
Jehovah that is far too petty and indulges in too many evil acts to be
anything more than a myth. It's possible that I'm wrong, but the
bible is pretty convincing (to me) that I'm not.

And if you've got evidence of a creator thing other than the one
discussed in judeo-christian literature, I am certainly willing to
hear that evidence.
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