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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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God Did Not Create the Universe
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:29:24 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote: "Terry" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:46:59 -0500, "RogerN" wrote: So, either the Bible is wrong or you are wrong. So far from what I have seen you are 100% wrong 100% of the time and go around calling people "crazymother****er" like you have a mental disorder. RogerN If we look at the bible it appears that Jehovah: -Killed every person on earth except for Noah and his family, presumably because everyone else was evil (including the babies??) Later on it appears that Noah isn't such a "just man and perfect" (Gen 6:9) because he gets drunk. -Likes to have animals that he created killed and burned. (Gen 8:20-21, 15:9, and elsewhere) -Couldn't find even ten good people in either Sodom or Gomorrah (not ten babies in an entire city?? Gen 18 and 19), so he killed everyone in those cities. -Doesn't complain when the righteous man Lot's daughters get him drunk and get themselves knocked up by him. (Gen 19:31-35) -Punishes the descendents of those who do evil; descendents are screwed royally before they're ever born. -Generated a worldwide famine (Gen 41:56), with huge amounts of suffering (and presumably death) apparently to make Joseph rich. -'Hardened the heart' of Pharoah several times, so that P wouldn't let the Israelites go, even though Moses was told (by Jehovah) to ask for their release. -Kills a bunch of children for the heinous crime of being the first-born children of Egyptians. (Exodus 11) Now, is all of this true? It's in the bible... True but you're taking the text out of context. For example if I just say "Tim punched Bob" it could lead you to think Tim started the fight and punched Bob for no reason. But if I tell the whole story that "Bob punched Tim 1000 times before Tim punched Bob" you know Bob deserved what he got and more, Tim was justified in his action. By telling what God did and not telling of the events that lead up to God's action you are deceiving the reader to think God wasn't justified, if you tell the whole story you see they got what was coming to them long overdue. In many cases God warned for years and years, even tens and hundreds of years before his judgment. The judgment on the Egyptian children was decided by Pharaoh for the Israelites, their harsh judgment got turned around on them. Descendents are automatically punished by having the parents they have, their parents point them down the wrong path, that's why so many youth voted for Obama. The Bible tells the ugly truth about people, it doesn't mean it was God's will for those things to happen, often if you follow along in context bad things result from the sins of the "righteous". Also with some deeper understanding you can figure out what makes a person righteous. In some other verses the wording from the translation isn't all that clear to us, sometimes "God did" could better be understood as "God permitted" or "God allowed". RogerN OK, then enlighten me. What (and where in the bible) is the context that justifies the killing of Egyptian children for something that they didn't do, and that their parents didn't do, but for what the Pharoah did? Remember, Jehovah supposedly 'hardened the heart' of Pharoah to get this result. And what context (reference please) says that punishment of the *descendants* of people who do bad things is, in fact, justice? If you decide to kill a dozen people, should your son or daughter be killed along with you? Your grandchildren? Of course not. And what context indicates that everyone on earth, except for Noah and his family, should be put to death? Kids too. I don't expect to convince the diehard christians. But it's stuff like that that made me realize, a long time ago, that these acts simply were not justifiable. A supreme perfect being would *avoid* killing the innocent along with the guilty. (In warfare, even *we* try to minimize civilian deaths; a supreme being would be able to avoid them entirely.) It would not presuppose guilt because of what the President did or your great-grandfather did. And it certainly wouldn't be as bloodthirsty as Jehovah is purported to be. (42 kids ripped to shreds by bears. No, they didn't kill or maim someone, they made fun of a prophet's bald head. A *lot* over the top, by my way of thinking.) By any reasonable human standards, Jehovah depicted in the bible is anything but humane, anything but just. It took me a long time to overcome what was hammered into me in childhood, but I finally decided that this couldn't be true. And that the bible was a collection of stories about a nonexistent thing. |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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God Did Not Create the Universe
"Terry" wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:29:24 -0500, "RogerN" wrote: "Terry" wrote in message . .. On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:46:59 -0500, "RogerN" wrote: So, either the Bible is wrong or you are wrong. So far from what I have seen you are 100% wrong 100% of the time and go around calling people "crazymother****er" like you have a mental disorder. RogerN If we look at the bible it appears that Jehovah: -Killed every person on earth except for Noah and his family, presumably because everyone else was evil (including the babies??) Later on it appears that Noah isn't such a "just man and perfect" (Gen 6:9) because he gets drunk. -Likes to have animals that he created killed and burned. (Gen 8:20-21, 15:9, and elsewhere) -Couldn't find even ten good people in either Sodom or Gomorrah (not ten babies in an entire city?? Gen 18 and 19), so he killed everyone in those cities. -Doesn't complain when the righteous man Lot's daughters get him drunk and get themselves knocked up by him. (Gen 19:31-35) -Punishes the descendents of those who do evil; descendents are screwed royally before they're ever born. -Generated a worldwide famine (Gen 41:56), with huge amounts of suffering (and presumably death) apparently to make Joseph rich. -'Hardened the heart' of Pharoah several times, so that P wouldn't let the Israelites go, even though Moses was told (by Jehovah) to ask for their release. -Kills a bunch of children for the heinous crime of being the first-born children of Egyptians. (Exodus 11) Now, is all of this true? It's in the bible... True but you're taking the text out of context. For example if I just say "Tim punched Bob" it could lead you to think Tim started the fight and punched Bob for no reason. But if I tell the whole story that "Bob punched Tim 1000 times before Tim punched Bob" you know Bob deserved what he got and more, Tim was justified in his action. By telling what God did and not telling of the events that lead up to God's action you are deceiving the reader to think God wasn't justified, if you tell the whole story you see they got what was coming to them long overdue. In many cases God warned for years and years, even tens and hundreds of years before his judgment. The judgment on the Egyptian children was decided by Pharaoh for the Israelites, their harsh judgment got turned around on them. Descendents are automatically punished by having the parents they have, their parents point them down the wrong path, that's why so many youth voted for Obama. The Bible tells the ugly truth about people, it doesn't mean it was God's will for those things to happen, often if you follow along in context bad things result from the sins of the "righteous". Also with some deeper understanding you can figure out what makes a person righteous. In some other verses the wording from the translation isn't all that clear to us, sometimes "God did" could better be understood as "God permitted" or "God allowed". RogerN OK, then enlighten me. What (and where in the bible) is the context that justifies the killing of Egyptian children for something that they didn't do, and that their parents didn't do, but for what the Pharoah did? So if there were innocent Egyptian children killed, what happened to them? Perhaps those Egyptian children are today living better than any king ever dreamed of on Earth. Are you also concerned about the innocent children of liberals that are slaughtered by abortion? Remember, Jehovah supposedly 'hardened the heart' of Pharoah to get this result. In a manner of speaking you can blame everything on God if God is responsible for all creation. Does God hardening Pharoah's heart mean Pharoah had no free choice in it? To understand things from God's perspective you have to realize God's goal isn't to make man happy on Earth. God has his kindom of Heaven where bad things don't happen to good people and innocent children don't die, but we aren't there. And what context (reference please) says that punishment of the *descendants* of people who do bad things is, in fact, justice? If you decide to kill a dozen people, should your son or daughter be killed along with you? Your grandchildren? Of course not. It just happens naturaly, my children's life is a result of decisions I make and have made. If I decide to do as little as possible to get by, my children suffer. If I decide to work hard and provide for my family my children benefit. What I do can help or harm my children just as what my father and grandfather did could help or hurt me. And what context indicates that everyone on earth, except for Noah and his family, should be put to death? Kids too. If this life is all there is then it's tragic. Is one year on Earth compared to eternity shorter than 100 years compared to eternity? Do you see in the story of Noah the story of God's plan of salvation. There is a parallel between a person of the world, in bondage to sin as the Children of Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians, and the world full of sin in the days of Noah. A person coming to God follows in Baptism, the Children of Israel passed through the water of the sea, the Earth was "baptized", washed of the former evil. Some turn to God for a short time and then go back to bondage in sin just like some of the Israelites thought they were better off as slaves and wished to return, the Earth also didn't remain in its washed clean condition. I don't expect to convince the diehard christians. But it's stuff like that that made me realize, a long time ago, that these acts simply were not justifiable. A supreme perfect being would *avoid* killing the innocent along with the guilty. (In warfare, even *we* try to minimize civilian deaths; a supreme being would be able to avoid them entirely.) In God's kingdom, Heaven, these unjust things don't happen. Unfortunately things don't go so well here. It would not presuppose guilt because of what the President did or your great-grandfather did. And it certainly wouldn't be as bloodthirsty as Jehovah is purported to be. (42 kids ripped to shreds by bears. No, they didn't kill or maim someone, they made fun of a prophet's bald head. A *lot* over the top, by my way of thinking.) If I remember correctly the Prophet ignored the youth for a while but they kept after him to harass him. They gave him no respect as a prophet of God, they just ridiculed him, picked on him for not being an Atheist perhaps. Just think of it as God blessing some bears! Today we have gangs of youth that pick on innocent people, I wouldn't mind God sending some bears to feast on them. By any reasonable human standards, Jehovah depicted in the bible is anything but humane, anything but just. It took me a long time to overcome what was hammered into me in childhood, but I finally decided that this couldn't be true. And that the bible was a collection of stories about a nonexistent thing. Actually the Bible is a collection of stories about God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ but not everyone can see it. RogerN |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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God Did Not Create the Universe
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:28:18 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote: OK, then enlighten me. What (and where in the bible) is the context that justifies the killing of Egyptian children for something that they didn't do, and that their parents didn't do, but for what the Pharoah did? So if there were innocent Egyptian children killed, what happened to them? Perhaps those Egyptian children are today living better than any king ever dreamed of on Earth. Are you also concerned about the innocent children of liberals that are slaughtered by abortion? Seems that this was the sort of logic used by the Inquisition; torture was justified because, once the person was 'purified' he/she was guaranteed admission into heaven. Wasn't valid then, isn't valid now. Remember, Jehovah supposedly 'hardened the heart' of Pharoah to get this result. In a manner of speaking you can blame everything on God if God is responsible for all creation. Does God hardening Pharoah's heart mean Pharoah had no free choice in it? To understand things from God's perspective you have to realize God's goal isn't to make man happy on Earth. God has his kindom of Heaven where bad things don't happen to good people and innocent children don't die, but we aren't there. It sounds as though you're conceding the point that innocent people were killed by Jehovah---*if* the bible is correct. In my view, a supreme being that can't kill just the bad people isn't very powerful. In fact, it sounds like... fiction. And what context (reference please) says that punishment of the *descendants* of people who do bad things is, in fact, justice? If you decide to kill a dozen people, should your son or daughter be killed along with you? Your grandchildren? Of course not. It just happens naturaly, my children's life is a result of decisions I make and have made. If I decide to do as little as possible to get by, my children suffer. If I decide to work hard and provide for my family my children benefit. What I do can help or harm my children just as what my father and grandfather did could help or hurt me. Very different situation when you're talking about a supreme being. The grandchildren and great-grandchildren not yet born have been condemned by the supreme being before they've done anything. Doesn't matter how good they might actually turn out to be, nor how much they help people---they're still cursed. And what context indicates that everyone on earth, except for Noah and his family, should be put to death? Kids too. If this life is all there is then it's tragic. Is one year on Earth compared to eternity shorter than 100 years compared to eternity? Do you see in the story of Noah the story of God's plan of salvation. There is a parallel between a person of the world, in bondage to sin as the Children of Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians, and the world full of sin in the days of Noah. A person coming to God follows in Baptism, the Children of Israel passed through the water of the sea, the Earth was "baptized", washed of the former evil. Some turn to God for a short time and then go back to bondage in sin just like some of the Israelites thought they were better off as slaves and wished to return, the Earth also didn't remain in its washed clean condition. No, I don't see it. According to the bible, ehovah killed a world full of people including innocents and children. Nothing justifies that. Of course, perhaps it's fiction.... I don't expect to convince the diehard christians. But it's stuff like that that made me realize, a long time ago, that these acts simply were not justifiable. A supreme perfect being would *avoid* killing the innocent along with the guilty. (In warfare, even *we* try to minimize civilian deaths; a supreme being would be able to avoid them entirely.) In God's kingdom, Heaven, these unjust things don't happen. Unfortunately things don't go so well here. And whose fault is that? Seems to me that the supreme being holds responsibility. If he is all-powerful then he can do *anything*, including being perfectly just. It would not presuppose guilt because of what the President did or your great-grandfather did. And it certainly wouldn't be as bloodthirsty as Jehovah is purported to be. (42 kids ripped to shreds by bears. No, they didn't kill or maim someone, they made fun of a prophet's bald head. A *lot* over the top, by my way of thinking.) If I remember correctly the Prophet ignored the youth for a while but they kept after him to harass him. They gave him no respect as a prophet of God, they just ridiculed him, picked on him for not being an Atheist perhaps. Just think of it as God blessing some bears! Today we have gangs of youth that pick on innocent people, I wouldn't mind God sending some bears to feast on them. So are you saying that having these children ripped to shreds by bears was a just punishment? Sorry, I do not see that. If civilized people can do better than that, why can't a supreme being? By any reasonable human standards, Jehovah depicted in the bible is anything but humane, anything but just. It took me a long time to overcome what was hammered into me in childhood, but I finally decided that this couldn't be true. And that the bible was a collection of stories about a nonexistent thing. Actually the Bible is a collection of stories about God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ but not everyone can see it. Okay, now I'm confused. Are you saying that all these stories are fictional? Because that's what I'm saying. For the record... I am not saying that this is proof that there is no supreme creator being. I *am* saying that the bible describes a Jehovah that is far too petty and indulges in too many evil acts to be anything more than a myth. It's possible that I'm wrong, but the bible is pretty convincing (to me) that I'm not. And if you've got evidence of a creator thing other than the one discussed in judeo-christian literature, I am certainly willing to hear that evidence. |
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