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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives


The prices are starting to drop:

30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4933684&Sku=O261-6228

4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2552722&CatId=5301

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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


The prices are starting to drop:

30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4933684&Sku=O261-6228

4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2552722&CatId=5301


What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?
--
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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives


Terry wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


The prices are starting to drop:

30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4933684&Sku=O261-6228

4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2552722&CatId=5301


What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?



They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking about
small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with an IDE/PATA
interface is disappearing from the market. What good is a jump drive on
something with no USB port?


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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?



They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking about
small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with an IDE/PATA
interface is disappearing from the market. What good is a jump drive on
something with no USB port?


We have that problem at work. Our newer Mitsubishi LASER CNC control
runs on Win95. The only network option is a PCMCIA reader and LAN card
in the reader. We installed the hardware and got the control to
recognize a laptop running Win2KPro, and vice versa, but so far, we
haven't gotten drive access to allow us to transfer files back and forth.

David
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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

Terry wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


The prices are starting to drop:

30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4933684&Sku=O261-6228

4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2552722&CatId=5301


What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?


The first one linked uses a combination of flash NAND memory along with a 64MB dynamic
memory cache. Your jump drive doesn't have a cache to improve write read/write times.

Wes
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government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller


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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives


"David R.Birch" wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?



They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking about
small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with an IDE/PATA
interface is disappearing from the market. What good is a jump drive on
something with no USB port?


We have that problem at work. Our newer Mitsubishi LASER CNC control
runs on Win95. The only network option is a PCMCIA reader and LAN card
in the reader. We installed the hardware and got the control to
recognize a laptop running Win2KPro, and vice versa, but so far, we
haven't gotten drive access to allow us to transfer files back and forth.



These are a huge improvement over the old 28 pin 'M-Drive' we used to
run embedded NT in one product about 10 years ago. They are a lot
larger, too. They were $380 for a 32 MB soft drive.

If your CNC will run with one of the formats that Windows can use,
you can format the solid state drive & install the software, then just
plug it into the CNC machine. You could even make a duplicate drive to
use for troubleshooting or emergency repairs. It's cheap production
insurance at those prices.


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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

These SSDs do wonders for old, memory constrained computers. I
installed one in a laptop with 256 MB of memory and the effect was
tremendous.

They are the future for everything besides slow file storage (like
movies and backups).

i
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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?

They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking about
small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with an IDE/PATA
interface is disappearing from the market. What good is a jump drive on
something with no USB port?

We have that problem at work. Our newer Mitsubishi LASER CNC control
runs on Win95. The only network option is a PCMCIA reader and LAN card
in the reader. We installed the hardware and got the control to
recognize a laptop running Win2KPro, and vice versa, but so far, we
haven't gotten drive access to allow us to transfer files back and forth.



These are a huge improvement over the old 28 pin 'M-Drive' we used to
run embedded NT in one product about 10 years ago. They are a lot
larger, too. They were $380 for a 32 MB soft drive.

If your CNC will run with one of the formats that Windows can use,
you can format the solid state drive & install the software, then just
plug it into the CNC machine. You could even make a duplicate drive to
use for troubleshooting or emergency repairs. It's cheap production
insurance at those prices.


Right now we'd be happy if we could load files from anything other
than the failing floppy drive. The control has a db25 serial port, but
for some reason, Mitsubishi decided that just being able to transfer
files with a COM program shouldn't work.

David
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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives


"David R.Birch" wrote:

Right now we'd be happy if we could load files from anything other
than the failing floppy drive. The control has a db25 serial port, but
for some reason, Mitsubishi decided that just being able to transfer
files with a COM program shouldn't work.



There are solid state replacements for 3.5" floppy drives, but they
aren't cheap. They allow you to use a USB memory stick to load programs
or data in CNC machines and other, old computers & computer based
systems.

http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html is one type.

What type, brand & model floppy drive are you using? There may be a
replacement, or if it is an older, full height 3.5" a good clean & lube
of the bearings in the disk elevator may fix your problems. I used to
repair 3.5" floppy drives when they cost $75. Dry bearings and missing
springs were common. Drives with bad heads gave me a good supply of
donor parts.

If it is an oddball drive, photos would help. I currently have a
couple hundred used floppy drives on hand. They are leftovers from a
closed computer business, and others were removed from scrapped computer
systems.


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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 12:46:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Terry wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


The prices are starting to drop:

30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4933684&Sku=O261-6228

4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2552722&CatId=5301


What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?



They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking about
small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with an IDE/PATA
interface is disappearing from the market. What good is a jump drive on
something with no USB port?



How is the seek and retrieve time on the solid state drives, as compared
to the good spinning disks?

Gunner

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The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

On Jun 6, 11:39*am, Terry wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"

wrote:

The prices are starting to drop:


30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199


http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?....


4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49


http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?....


What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? *Speed? *If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?
--
Best -- Terry


They are smokin' fast (though some are faster than others), They
actually can use up the bandwith in a SATAII connection, on sustained
reads & writes, which rotating devices can only do on bursts.

In practice, well that depends on what you are practicing. If you are
sending G-Codes to a machine tool. There's probably no practical speed
advantage. If you are crunching through tons of database tables,
there's a huge advantage.

As always, you pays your money and you takes your choice.


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Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 12:46:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Terry wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


The prices are starting to drop:

30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4933684&Sku=O261-6228

4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2552722&CatId=5301

What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive at
$70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?



They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking about
small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with an IDE/PATA
interface is disappearing from the market. What good is a jump drive on
something with no USB port?


How is the seek and retrieve time on the solid state drives, as compared
to the good spinning disks?



There is no moving mechanical mass in a solid state drive so it's a
lot faster that conventional drives. there is no oxide to shed from the
spinning media, and they don't mind vibration or suffer from mechanical
shock like older drives. You've seen the TV ads for laptops that survive
being dropped while on? Guess how they do it.


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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

There is no moving mechanical mass in a solid state drive so it's a
lot faster that conventional drives. there is no oxide to shed from the
spinning media, and they don't mind vibration or suffer from mechanical
shock like older drives.


But the flash cells have a finite life as in write cycles.

Sophisticated wear leveling algorithms try to keep the wear spread across the cells.

The technology is improving but it isn't at a price point to drop spinning metal platters
yet. My pile of drives that have failed or were recovered and no longer trusted is
getting pretty darn big.

Then there is the issue that a CDROM or DVDROM doesn't have an archival lifespan. I fear
a whole lot of digital content is going to die faster that content produced only 50 years
ago. 1980-2030, the lost decades.

Wes

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government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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Wes wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

There is no moving mechanical mass in a solid state drive so it's a
lot faster that conventional drives. there is no oxide to shed from the
spinning media, and they don't mind vibration or suffer from mechanical
shock like older drives.


But the flash cells have a finite life as in write cycles.



It was well over 100,000 write cycles the last time i worked with
solid state drives. Since the drive in a machine tool is mostly a read
device, it should outlast the tool. NASA had no problem with the
expected life span in 2000.

Would you rather use a solid state drive in a machine, or look for a
used mechanical IDE/PATA drive that might still work while the machine
is down, and nothing is being shipped? Some interfaces won't work with
the newer drives, because the block size is too large on 300 GB and up
hard drives. from what I've heard, there are no new IDE/PATA drives
being built, and what is for sale is the last in the pipeline.


Sophisticated wear leveling algorithms try to keep the wear spread across the cells.

The technology is improving but it isn't at a price point to drop spinning metal platters
yet. My pile of drives that have failed or were recovered and no longer trusted is
getting pretty darn big.



It will continue to grow, because the higher the density, the easier
it is to corrupt.


Then there is the issue that a CDROM or DVDROM doesn't have an archival lifespan. I fear
a whole lot of digital content is going to die faster that content produced only 50 years
ago. 1980-2030, the lost decades.



Critical data should be refreshed every five years to new media, just
to be safe.


--
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have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
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"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in
m:


Terry wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


The prices are starting to drop:

30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...em-details.asp
?EdpNo=4933684&Sku=O261-6228

4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...em-details.asp
?EdpNo=2552722&CatId=5301


What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive
at $70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?



They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking
about
small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with an IDE/PATA
interface is disappearing from the market. What good is a jump drive
on something with no USB port?


I would never use flash based memory devices for primary storage. They
are fine for moving files around on USB thumb drives, but they are
inherently unreliable. Flash drives wear out, and have internal
algorithms to spread the wear around. I know a number of folks who've
had thumb drives die on them. I realize that they have been improving,
but until I see some serious unbiased tests on long term reliability, I'm
sticking with spinning things. I think conventional hard drives are also
less likely to get flipped bits from cosmic rays, although with adequate
encoding, that _shouldn't_ be a problem.

Doug White


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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

On 2010-06-06, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Wes wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

There is no moving mechanical mass in a solid state drive so it's a
lot faster that conventional drives. there is no oxide to shed from the
spinning media, and they don't mind vibration or suffer from mechanical
shock like older drives.


But the flash cells have a finite life as in write cycles.



It was well over 100,000 write cycles the last time i worked with
solid state drives. Since the drive in a machine tool is mostly a read
device, it should outlast the tool. NASA had no problem with the
expected life span in 2000.


It depends on the OS. Unix variants (unless the filesystem is
mounted read-only) update the last-accessed time in the inode for each
file every time you read it. And there are a number of file inodes
sharing the same 512 byte block, so the number of write cycles in an
active directory would accumulate rather faster than you might expect.

This could at least be a problem with EMC (which is linux based)
-- unless care is taken to mount the SS drive read-only, and keep some
other form of medium for read-write. Perhaps set it up using the SS
disk something like a liveCD, and copying it into a RAM-DISK for normal
execution, and only remounting it read-write when you absolutely need to
write something to it.

With the Microsoft FAT filesystem, I don't think that there is
any equivalent last-accessed time, but I don't know what other gotchas
might be present.

Would you rather use a solid state drive in a machine, or look for a
used mechanical IDE/PATA drive that might still work while the machine
is down, and nothing is being shipped? Some interfaces won't work with
the newer drives, because the block size is too large on 300 GB and up
hard drives. from what I've heard, there are no new IDE/PATA drives
being built, and what is for sale is the last in the pipeline.


Making me happy to use SCSI and FC disks. :-) At least Sun
doesn't seem to have any hardware-set limits on those. :-)

Sophisticated wear leveling algorithms try to keep the wear spread across the cells.


That can help -- somewhat.

The technology is improving but it isn't at a price point to drop spinning metal platters
yet. My pile of drives that have failed or were recovered and no longer trusted is
getting pretty darn big.



It will continue to grow, because the higher the density, the easier
it is to corrupt.


:-)

Then there is the issue that a CDROM or DVDROM doesn't have an archival lifespan. I fear
a whole lot of digital content is going to die faster that content produced only 50 years
ago. 1980-2030, the lost decades.



Critical data should be refreshed every five years to new media, just
to be safe.


Yes -- now all you need is the time to keep a growing stack of
CD-ROM and DVD-ROM safety copies up to date. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

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Doug White wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in
m:


Terry wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


The prices are starting to drop:

30 GB SATA 2 SS drive: $199

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...em-details.asp
?EdpNo=4933684&Sku=O261-6228

4 GB 2.5" PATA/IDE SS drive: $49

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...em-details.asp
?EdpNo=2552722&CatId=5301

What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump drive
at $70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how great is that
advantage in practice?



They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking
about
small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with an IDE/PATA
interface is disappearing from the market. What good is a jump drive
on something with no USB port?


I would never use flash based memory devices for primary storage. They
are fine for moving files around on USB thumb drives, but they are
inherently unreliable. Flash drives wear out, and have internal
algorithms to spread the wear around. I know a number of folks who've
had thumb drives die on them.



Thumb drives suffer mechanical stress, ESD and connector wear. Since
you can't see the PC board, they aren't that careful with the reflow
soldering. The ones I've opened were trash when they were shipped.
They used lead free solder and either too low of a reflow temperature,
of the flux was no good. Some of them are so bad that you can pop the
chip off the board with a fingernail. Of course, the OEM consider them
as expendable media. They keep doubling the capacity, and want you to
throw away what you're using to buy a new one.

I realize that they have been improving,
but until I see some serious unbiased tests on long term reliability, I'm
sticking with spinning things. I think conventional hard drives are also
less likely to get flipped bits from cosmic rays, although with adequate
encoding, that _shouldn't_ be a problem.



NASA has no problem with them in orbit. If you don't want to use
them, then you better stock up now. IDE/PATA drives are a rapidly dying
breed of data storage devices.


There is more analog, low level electronics in a spinning drive. The
spinning drive's PC board is larger, which makes for a larger topic for
stray particles. Use whatever you want. I want three of the SS drives
to put in an old Dell Poweredge 4350 server.


--
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have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
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"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-06-06, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Wes wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

There is no moving mechanical mass in a solid state drive so it's a
lot faster that conventional drives. there is no oxide to shed from the
spinning media, and they don't mind vibration or suffer from mechanical
shock like older drives.

But the flash cells have a finite life as in write cycles.



It was well over 100,000 write cycles the last time i worked with
solid state drives. Since the drive in a machine tool is mostly a read
device, it should outlast the tool. NASA had no problem with the
expected life span in 2000.


It depends on the OS. Unix variants (unless the filesystem is
mounted read-only) update the last-accessed time in the inode for each
file every time you read it. And there are a number of file inodes
sharing the same 512 byte block, so the number of write cycles in an
active directory would accumulate rather faster than you might expect.

This could at least be a problem with EMC (which is linux based)
-- unless care is taken to mount the SS drive read-only, and keep some
other form of medium for read-write. Perhaps set it up using the SS
disk something like a liveCD, and copying it into a RAM-DISK for normal
execution, and only remounting it read-write when you absolutely need to
write something to it.

With the Microsoft FAT filesystem, I don't think that there is
any equivalent last-accessed time, but I don't know what other gotchas
might be present.

Would you rather use a solid state drive in a machine, or look for a
used mechanical IDE/PATA drive that might still work while the machine
is down, and nothing is being shipped? Some interfaces won't work with
the newer drives, because the block size is too large on 300 GB and up
hard drives. from what I've heard, there are no new IDE/PATA drives
being built, and what is for sale is the last in the pipeline.


Making me happy to use SCSI and FC disks. :-) At least Sun
doesn't seem to have any hardware-set limits on those. :-)

Sophisticated wear leveling algorithms try to keep the wear spread across the cells.


That can help -- somewhat.

The technology is improving but it isn't at a price point to drop spinning metal platters
yet. My pile of drives that have failed or were recovered and no longer trusted is
getting pretty darn big.



It will continue to grow, because the higher the density, the easier
it is to corrupt.


:-)

Then there is the issue that a CDROM or DVDROM doesn't have an archival lifespan. I fear
a whole lot of digital content is going to die faster that content produced only 50 years
ago. 1980-2030, the lost decades.



Critical data should be refreshed every five years to new media, just
to be safe.


Yes -- now all you need is the time to keep a growing stack of
CD-ROM and DVD-ROM safety copies up to date. :-)



They make autoloaders for tape drives, and I've seen them for 5.25" &
3.5" floppies. There should be a marked for hopper fed CD/DVD data
copiers.

Personally, I only need to create a CD or two a month. You could
copy the whole year's worth in a couple hours by hand. For me it would
be no problem. I would just turn on my spare computer and let it work
while I did something else at my workbench.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

On 2010-06-07, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-06-06, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Wes wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

There is no moving mechanical mass in a solid state drive so it's a
lot faster that conventional drives. there is no oxide to shed from the
spinning media, and they don't mind vibration or suffer from mechanical
shock like older drives.

But the flash cells have a finite life as in write cycles.



It was well over 100,000 write cycles the last time i worked with
solid state drives. Since the drive in a machine tool is mostly a read
device, it should outlast the tool. NASA had no problem with the
expected life span in 2000.


It depends on the OS. Unix variants (unless the filesystem is
mounted read-only) update the last-accessed time in the inode for each
file every time you read it. And there are a number of file inodes
sharing the same 512 byte block, so the number of write cycles in an
active directory would accumulate rather faster than you might expect.


In Linux, there is a mount option "noatime" that disables that
behavior.

This could at least be a problem with EMC (which is linux based)
-- unless care is taken to mount the SS drive read-only, and keep some
other form of medium for read-write. Perhaps set it up using the SS
disk something like a liveCD, and copying it into a RAM-DISK for normal
execution, and only remounting it read-write when you absolutely need to
write something to it.

With the Microsoft FAT filesystem, I don't think that there is
any equivalent last-accessed time, but I don't know what other gotchas
might be present.


This is not a big problem, one is because it does not result in that
much writes, and also because of availabiilty of noatime.

i
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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote:
Right now we'd be happy if we could load files from anything other
than the failing floppy drive. The control has a db25 serial port, but
for some reason, Mitsubishi decided that just being able to transfer
files with a COM program shouldn't work.



There are solid state replacements for 3.5" floppy drives, but they
aren't cheap. They allow you to use a USB memory stick to load programs
or data in CNC machines and other, old computers & computer based
systems.

http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html is one type.


This is a possibility, we're already using flash drives to load
programs to our newer Mazak, but I'd rather get everything networked.

What type, brand & model floppy drive are you using? There may be a
replacement, or if it is an older, full height 3.5" a good clean & lube
of the bearings in the disk elevator may fix your problems. I used to
repair 3.5" floppy drives when they cost $75. Dry bearings and missing
springs were common. Drives with bad heads gave me a good supply of
donor parts.

If it is an oddball drive, photos would help. I currently have a
couple hundred used floppy drives on hand. They are leftovers from a
closed computer business, and others were removed from scrapped computer
systems.


It looks like a standard half height 3.5" floppy drive, but it isn't.
I've tried substituting new drives, but the control doesn't read them,
so Mitsubishi seems to have monkeyed with them so they can charge
$700+ for them.

David


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MITS had custom drives that were larder (more bits) in the same format.

That might be what you are fighting. It was designed for IBM and likely
used in other divisions and other MITS companies. Yes not all MITS are MITS.
Color of the diamonds is a key. Red and Yellow... I had friends on both sides.

Martin [ former MITS DRAM ENG MANAGER N.A.]

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 6/6/2010 9:08 PM, David R.Birch wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote:
Right now we'd be happy if we could load files from anything other
than the failing floppy drive. The control has a db25 serial port, but
for some reason, Mitsubishi decided that just being able to transfer
files with a COM program shouldn't work.



There are solid state replacements for 3.5" floppy drives, but they
aren't cheap. They allow you to use a USB memory stick to load programs
or data in CNC machines and other, old computers & computer based
systems.

http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html is one type.


This is a possibility, we're already using flash drives to load programs
to our newer Mazak, but I'd rather get everything networked.

What type, brand & model floppy drive are you using? There may be a
replacement, or if it is an older, full height 3.5" a good clean & lube
of the bearings in the disk elevator may fix your problems. I used to
repair 3.5" floppy drives when they cost $75. Dry bearings and missing
springs were common. Drives with bad heads gave me a good supply of
donor parts.

If it is an oddball drive, photos would help. I currently have a
couple hundred used floppy drives on hand. They are leftovers from a
closed computer business, and others were removed from scrapped computer
systems.


It looks like a standard half height 3.5" floppy drive, but it isn't.
I've tried substituting new drives, but the control doesn't read them,
so Mitsubishi seems to have monkeyed with them so they can charge $700+
for them.

David

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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

The 4' tall 1 MEG disk drive is not replaceable. It was popular before
hard disk technology grew. An electronic replacement was developed -
it used a small Winchester and a lot of electronics interfacing the two.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 6/6/2010 6:29 PM, Wes wrote:
"Michael A. wrote:

There is no moving mechanical mass in a solid state drive so it's a
lot faster that conventional drives. there is no oxide to shed from the
spinning media, and they don't mind vibration or suffer from mechanical
shock like older drives.


But the flash cells have a finite life as in write cycles.

Sophisticated wear leveling algorithms try to keep the wear spread across the cells.

The technology is improving but it isn't at a price point to drop spinning metal platters
yet. My pile of drives that have failed or were recovered and no longer trusted is
getting pretty darn big.

Then there is the issue that a CDROM or DVDROM doesn't have an archival lifespan. I fear
a whole lot of digital content is going to die faster that content produced only 50 years
ago. 1980-2030, the lost decades.

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives


"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:

The 4' tall 1 MEG disk drive is not replaceable. It was popular before
hard disk technology grew. An electronic replacement was developed -
it used a small Winchester and a lot of electronics interfacing the two.



I still have a few Shugart SA1004 8" 10 MB hard drives. (Built before
the lawsuit when they were forced to change their name. They changed it
to Seagate technologies.)


If the hardware is that old the data needs to be ported to a newer
technology. You should have seen the 1960 Westinghouse 5 MB hard drive
with a 48" disk. It had a 5 HP three phase motor, and a warning not to
attempt to access the platter for five full minutes. One was used with
the original computer for Armco Steel's original computerized hot strip
in Middletown, Ohio. They finally had to replace most of the computer
hardware when all the spare parts for that oddball drive were gone.
they had purchased ever used drive they could find for over 10 years to
keep from upgrading the mill. The last drive was scrapped in 1987. Not
many hard drives had a 12 circuit three phase breaker box.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
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John R. Carroll wrote:
David R.Birch wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump
drive at $70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how
great is that advantage in practice?
They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking
about small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with
an IDE/PATA interface is disappearing from the market. What good
is a jump drive on something with no USB port?
We have that problem at work. Our newer Mitsubishi LASER CNC control
runs on Win95. The only network option is a PCMCIA reader and LAN
card in the reader. We installed the hardware and got the control to
recognize a laptop running Win2KPro, and vice versa, but so far, we
haven't gotten drive access to allow us to transfer files back and
forth.

These are a huge improvement over the old 28 pin 'M-Drive' we
used to run embedded NT in one product about 10 years ago. They are
a lot larger, too. They were $380 for a 32 MB soft drive.

If your CNC will run with one of the formats that Windows can use,
you can format the solid state drive & install the software, then
just plug it into the CNC machine. You could even make a duplicate
drive to use for troubleshooting or emergency repairs. It's cheap
production insurance at those prices.

Right now we'd be happy if we could load files from anything other
than the failing floppy drive. The control has a db25 serial port, but
for some reason, Mitsubishi decided that just being able to transfer
files with a COM program shouldn't work.


You have to properly select the I/O devices in the parameters David.
Which control is it?


5x10' LZP with LC20B control

Here's a pic of the control:

http://www.meridianmachinery.com/photos/1730_1.jpg

David
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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

John R. Carroll wrote:
David R.Birch wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
David R.Birch wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What is the advantage of these drives over, say, a 32 GB jump
drive at $70 (this week at Office Depot)? Speed? If so, how
great is that advantage in practice?
They replace the hard drive in a computer. Someone was asking
about small hard drives for machine tools. Spinning storage with
an IDE/PATA interface is disappearing from the market. What good
is a jump drive on something with no USB port?
We have that problem at work. Our newer Mitsubishi LASER CNC
control runs on Win95. The only network option is a PCMCIA reader
and LAN card in the reader. We installed the hardware and got the
control to recognize a laptop running Win2KPro, and vice versa,
but so far, we haven't gotten drive access to allow us to
transfer files back and forth.
These are a huge improvement over the old 28 pin 'M-Drive' we
used to run embedded NT in one product about 10 years ago. They
are a lot larger, too. They were $380 for a 32 MB soft drive.

If your CNC will run with one of the formats that Windows can
use, you can format the solid state drive & install the software,
then just plug it into the CNC machine. You could even make a
duplicate drive to use for troubleshooting or emergency repairs.
It's cheap production insurance at those prices.
Right now we'd be happy if we could load files from anything other
than the failing floppy drive. The control has a db25 serial port,
but for some reason, Mitsubishi decided that just being able to
transfer files with a COM program shouldn't work.
You have to properly select the I/O devices in the parameters David.
Which control is it?

5x10' LZP with LC20B control

Here's a pic of the control:

http://www.meridianmachinery.com/photos/1730_1.jpg


That looks like a 530 control but you might also have the dreaded "Magic 64"
which is an M64 with a PC front end.
They had a hard drive and a floppy and ran '95 in the early models and then
NT later on. You can upgrade the older ones.


This one runs Win95. Internally, it doesn't have a standard
motherboard and I see nothing resembling ISA or PCI slots.

Does the control boot Windows when you power it up?


Yes. Since I installed the PCMCIA LAN adapter, I get a screen that
asks for a password. The operators have been told NOT to enter
anything, just hit INPUT or whatever the equivalent of ENTER is.

Your problem, if you have a Magic, will be device drivers.


How would I identify a Magic 64?

Get the Ethernet adapter working. You can take any ISA Ethernet adapter and
put it in the mother board on these things and then configure your
connection through the Windows control panel.


No slots, ISA or PCI.

You can send programs to the machine memory using your RS232 port but you
will need to flip the control to the Mits side and do the transfer there. Do
it the same way you would on a 520A-MR. Then save the program to the hard
drive.


What is the 520A-MR, some sort of BTR device? A CNC control?

Anytime I have a Mitsubishi question I call Chicago.
Those guys are GREAT, and they will be happy to help you out.
They really know their stuff.


Do you mean MC Machinery? That's our usual Mits contact.

David


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John R. Carroll wrote:

It should be in the pendant where the monitor is.
They are a very small form factor board.
You might have a hard time getting the LAN adapter in but it one can be made
to fit if it doesn't.
The motherboard is removable.


I've been inside the pendant plenty, there is nothing resembling any
motherboard I've seen since since I was playing with S-100 bus CNC
controls. I've built PCs since XT clones were the hot setup and I've
seen lots of mommaboards. I don't need to install a LAN card, the
PCMCIA LAN adapter is talking with the Win2k laptop, we haven't
figured out how to transfer files, though.

Anytime I have a Mitsubishi question I call Chicago.
Those guys are GREAT, and they will be happy to help you out.
They really know their stuff.

Do you mean MC Machinery? That's our usual Mits contact.


No, call Mitsubishi directly in Chicago.
As I recall, the guy you want to speak with is Steve.
Mitsubishi tech support at (847) 478-2500

That used to be the number anyway.


I'll give it a try tomorrow. Thanks.

David
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Default Recent thread on solid state disk drives

David R.Birch wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:

It should be in the pendant where the monitor is.
They are a very small form factor board.
You might have a hard time getting the LAN adapter in but it one can
be made
to fit if it doesn't.
The motherboard is removable.


I've been inside the pendant plenty, there is nothing resembling any
motherboard I've seen since since I was playing with S-100 bus CNC
controls. I've built PCs since XT clones were the hot setup and I've
seen lots of mommaboards. I don't need to install a LAN card, the PCMCIA
LAN adapter is talking with the Win2k laptop, we haven't figured out how
to transfer files, though.

Anytime I have a Mitsubishi question I call Chicago.
Those guys are GREAT, and they will be happy to help you out.
They really know their stuff.
Do you mean MC Machinery? That's our usual Mits contact.


No, call Mitsubishi directly in Chicago.
As I recall, the guy you want to speak with is Steve.
Mitsubishi tech support at (847) 478-2500

That used to be the number anyway.


I'll give it a try tomorrow. Thanks.

David

Install the legacy NetBEUI protocol on the WIN2K box and your odds of
sharing files with a WIN95 system go up dramatically. Try sharing a
folder on the WIN2K box and the WIN95 system *should* see it. Otherwise
enable filesharing on the WIN95 box and access that from the WIN2K box.

Last resort is install a FTP server on the WIN2K box (I use Ward's FTP
daemon http://www.warftp.org/ ) and use the Win95 command line FTP
utility. You could install a GUI FTP utility, but the problem would be
finding one that works on WIN95.


--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
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