I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl

On 2010-05-26, Karl Townsend wrote:
I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

I hate him too, but I think that 220 is better, as it is less
troublesome and some machines run on 220 only. 440v only machiens are
more rare, IMHO.

For a real nice phase converter, I can sell you a 25 HP 1750 RPM
motor, for $150.

i

For a real nice phase converter, I can sell you a 25 HP 1750 RPM
motor, for $150.

Just what I'm looking for and a fair price. But shipping would kill it.

Karl

On 2010-05-26, Karl Townsend wrote:

For a real nice phase converter, I can sell you a 25 HP 1750 RPM
motor, for $150.

Just what I'm looking for and a fair price. But shipping would kill it.

If you are going to be in my area soon that could work.

But I will not keep it for too long.

i

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....

Gunner


--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

snip
He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....

Gunner

How many of what size do I need for my time machine. I'll go back and give
free vasectomies to liberals' dads and grandpas...if anybody could figure
out who they are. What works best for vasectomies, hollow points or wad
cutters?

On 2010-05-26, Buerste wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

snip
He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....

Gunner

How many of what size do I need for my time machine. I'll go back and give
free vasectomies to liberals' dads and grandpas...if anybody could figure
out who they are. What works best for vasectomies, hollow points or wad
cutters?



Do you have any liberal siblings or cousins?

i

Karl Townsend wrote:
I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

It's the sort of thing that you'd normally do a
cost analysis on. Figure how many amps where and
how much copper you'd save with 480 verses the
cost of a transformer and it's magnetizing and
copper losses.

If I were to just pull a number out of my ass,
I'd say less than 200 amperes for the shop, stick
to 240. Maybe Pete C. could chime in with a
professional opinion.

On Wed, 26 May 2010 19:58:41 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .

snip
He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....

Gunner

How many of what size do I need for my time machine. I'll go back and give
free vasectomies to liberals' dads and grandpas...if anybody could figure
out who they are. What works best for vasectomies, hollow points or wad
cutters?

Niether. 1 1/8th ounce of shot at 1200 fps, is the prefered method.


Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Wed, 26 May 2010 18:59:51 -0500, Ignoramus5816
wrote:

On 2010-05-26, Buerste wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

snip
He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....

Gunner

How many of what size do I need for my time machine. I'll go back and give
free vasectomies to liberals' dads and grandpas...if anybody could figure
out who they are. What works best for vasectomies, hollow points or wad
cutters?



Do you have any liberal siblings or cousins?

i

No. I certainly dont. My family is smart. They are doctors, scientists
and engineers.

Not a social worker in the pack.


Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Jim Stewart wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:
I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question
440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get
some
useage. Good idea?

It's the sort of thing that you'd normally do a
cost analysis on. Figure how many amps where and
how much copper you'd save with 480 verses the
cost of a transformer and it's magnetizing and
copper losses.

If I were to just pull a number out of my ass,
I'd say less than 200 amperes for the shop, stick
to 240. Maybe Pete C. could chime in with a
professional opinion.



Having 480 saves on wire size for the same power capacity but everything
else gets quite expensive. Breakers, panel boxes , safety disconnects
will scare you with the prices. 200 amps is the limit on a direct
reading meter, after that current transformers are used. You will have
a hard time using the full 200 amps in a small shop.

The peak demand in my shop runs about 40 Kw and that is with 5 cnc
machines and a couple of big vertical boring mills. If you happen to
get a good buy on a 480 machine that can't be converted, get a
transformer. I have 3200 amps coming into my building, maybe some day I
will be able to put it to good use maybe with a nice induction furnace.


John



N

Karl, If you are looking for a large 3 phase motor, I may be able to help.
We remove 3-4 a year and toss them in the scrap! Plus Fargo is not that far
to haul it back your way.
Let me know, I think we are tearing out a large air handler any day that may
have a suitable motor.
Greg



"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...

For a real nice phase converter, I can sell you a 25 HP 1750 RPM
motor, for $150.

Just what I'm looking for and a fair price. But shipping would kill it.

Karl

"Ignoramus5816" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-26, Buerste wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

snip
He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....

Gunner

How many of what size do I need for my time machine. I'll go back and
give
free vasectomies to liberals' dads and grandpas...if anybody could figure
out who they are. What works best for vasectomies, hollow points or wad
cutters?



Do you have any liberal siblings or cousins?

i

My brother, 2 years older, is an Uber-liberal lawyer. I will only
vasectomize "certain" liberals...politicians!

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Damned good idea if it can be had reasonably. I paid just over $22,000 to
get it to our shop. I thought it was less, but found the invoice
recently, to refresh my memory. I think it was worth it, but I'm spoiled.
I've had 3 phase since 1967.

Iggy suggested that 220 volt machines tend to be more common than 440 (or
480). True for light duty equipment, but industry is well known for using
480 delta three phase. Select the service that best suits your equipment.
I have one grinder that requires 480 volts, so I have one transformer. The
rest run on three phase delta, 240 volts.

Harold

Karl

"Greg O" wrote in message
...
Karl, If you are looking for a large 3 phase motor, I may be able to help.
We remove 3-4 a year and toss them in the scrap! Plus Fargo is not that
far to haul it back your way.
Let me know, I think we are tearing out a large air handler any day that
may have a suitable motor.
Greg

Hey Greg,

Hope your friend is enjoying that Bridgeport.

Yes, I'm looking for thee motors. My plan is to start a 10 or so, and then
bring in two larger ones one at a time for a total of fifty or sixty horse.
"The Kid" is buying, so I'm sure he'd rather road trip for a deal. he goes
to Crookston twice a year to see a friend if you don't mind holding a while.

thanks

Karl

Gunner,

Save your left one and your cash. Juice from a properly designed, capacitor balanced, rotary phase
convertor is indistinguishable from "real 3 phase". The current circulating within a RPC and load
is real 3 phase.

Bob Swinney
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....

Gunner


--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Save your left one and your cash. Juice from a properly designed,
capacitor balanced, rotary phase
convertor is indistinguishable from "real 3 phase". The current
circulating within a RPC and load
is real 3 phase.

Bob Swinney

True enough if your machine isn't too big. My Mazak M4 is going to "the
Kid's" place. I can't run this 20 horse lathe in the three highest gears at
my place using a 25 hp phase converter. I told the kid I'd make him a 50
horse unit. But, I doubt he'll be able to run his Matsuura bed mill at the
same time with its 12 horse spindle.

he's also got a huge miller three phase wire feed welder that would like
real three phase, not to mention future purchases.

Keep in mind we like to play with big toys VBG


Karl

On Thu, 27 May 2010 10:23:43 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


Save your left one and your cash. Juice from a properly designed,
capacitor balanced, rotary phase
convertor is indistinguishable from "real 3 phase". The current
circulating within a RPC and load
is real 3 phase.

Bob Swinney

True enough if your machine isn't too big. My Mazak M4 is going to "the
Kid's" place. I can't run this 20 horse lathe in the three highest gears at
my place using a 25 hp phase converter. I told the kid I'd make him a 50
horse unit. But, I doubt he'll be able to run his Matsuura bed mill at the
same time with its 12 horse spindle.

he's also got a huge miller three phase wire feed welder that would like
real three phase, not to mention future purchases.

Keep in mind we like to play with big toys VBG


Karl

Interested in a minty+ Airco PhaseArc 350 3ph mig welder? 300 Amps out
the torch. Spray transfer...not a problem VBG

They were running it on 480 when I loaned it to them.

Make you a hell of a deal.

Gunner




--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On 2010-05-27, Gunner Asch wrote:
I bought my clients at Gossco, a very nice 480 vt, 8" bench grinder on a
stand , with lights and the whole tamale, for $0.99 from Reliable tool,
a few years ago. Baldor motor that was ONLY 480 volt, oddly enough.

The guy at the auction who bought it for $75..was a bit ****ed off when
I told him it was ONLY 480volt VBG

Good deal. I once sold a 7" Baldor grinder, 440v only, for $150.

Gunner, what would happen if you tried to run it from 240v? I had a
few 440v machines run from 220v, they seem to run, although I am sure
they produce less power.

i

Karl sez:
"
True enough if your machine isn't too big."

It is true as long as it is capacitor balanced and the idler motor rated HP is more than that of the
intended load motor(s) on the order of 2 X or so.

Bob Swinney

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
news
Karl sez:
"
True enough if your machine isn't too big."

It is true as long as it is capacitor balanced and the idler motor rated
HP is more than that of the
intended load motor(s) on the order of 2 X or so.

Bob Swinney


I'm pretty sure there's more to it when you start to exceed 200 amps during
startup on a 200 amp service, but you're the expert here. I do know starting
the mazak on real three phase isn't an issue and it totally dims the lights
and kickout breakers on my system in the higher gears.

Karl

On Thu, 27 May 2010 13:48:59 -0500, Ignoramus12281
wrote:

On 2010-05-27, Gunner Asch wrote:
I bought my clients at Gossco, a very nice 480 vt, 8" bench grinder on a
stand , with lights and the whole tamale, for $0.99 from Reliable tool,
a few years ago. Baldor motor that was ONLY 480 volt, oddly enough.

The guy at the auction who bought it for $75..was a bit ****ed off when
I told him it was ONLY 480volt VBG

Good deal. I once sold a 7" Baldor grinder, 440v only, for $150.

Gunner, what would happen if you tried to run it from 240v? I had a
few 440v machines run from 220v, they seem to run, although I am sure
they produce less power.

i

No idea, though Id suspect if it ran, it would run slow and with little
power. And likely overheat the windings to the point of burning out
before long.

Small wall mounted transformers however are cheap enough. In fact..I
brought 4 home last weekend. 5 kva or so if I recall. 440-220 3ph and
reverse.

Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On 2010-05-27, Robert Swinney wrote:
Gunner,

Save your left one and your cash. Juice from a properly designed,
capacitor balanced, rotary phase convertor is indistinguishable from
"real 3 phase". The current circulating within a RPC and load is real 3
phase.

Not quite. The balance is a function of the load. Tune it
for proper balance with one machine (load) and if you turn on a
different one with a different horsepower, the balance will be off a
bit, as will it be when you turn on a second machine while the first is
running. (Each extra machine adds to the rotary transformer capability,
but does not add to the tuning capacitance.)

Though I guess that you could tune for a no-load balance, and
add tuning capacitors to each load machine's motor and keep things a bit
closer.

Certainly under certain circumstances, you can lose seriously
using a rotary converter. An example would be with the old Bridgeport
Series-1 CNC mill with the BOSS-3 through BOSS-5 controllers and stepper
motors. The stepper motor voltages are controlled by a saturable
reactor to tune for either slow step and stationary (lower voltage and
current) or fast step (higher voltage to overcome the switching
inductance of the motor windings). Each axis presents a load on only
one phase, so the balance shifts with X-axis, Y-axis and Z-axis moves --
with load on one often causing the other two to be higher. The problem
is that the motor windings are stepped with power transistors which just
barely had enough maximum voltage rating, and an unbalanced rotary
converter can start popping transistors -- ones which are now hard to
find and thus expensive.

And this is neglecting what imbalance might be introduced by
other loads connected to the same rotary converter.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....


Filament transformers? ;-)


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Buerste wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

snip
He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....

Gunner

How many of what size do I need for my time machine. I'll go back and give
free vasectomies to liberals' dads and grandpas...if anybody could figure
out who they are. What works best for vasectomies, hollow points or wad
cutters?


A plasma cutter.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On 28 May 2010 02:16:06 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-05-27, Robert Swinney wrote:
Gunner,

Save your left one and your cash. Juice from a properly designed,
capacitor balanced, rotary phase convertor is indistinguishable from
"real 3 phase". The current circulating within a RPC and load is real 3
phase.

Not quite. The balance is a function of the load. Tune it
for proper balance with one machine (load) and if you turn on a
different one with a different horsepower, the balance will be off a
bit, as will it be when you turn on a second machine while the first is
running. (Each extra machine adds to the rotary transformer capability,
but does not add to the tuning capacitance.)

Though I guess that you could tune for a no-load balance, and
add tuning capacitors to each load machine's motor and keep things a bit
closer.

Certainly under certain circumstances, you can lose seriously
using a rotary converter. An example would be with the old Bridgeport
Series-1 CNC mill with the BOSS-3 through BOSS-5 controllers and stepper
motors. The stepper motor voltages are controlled by a saturable
reactor to tune for either slow step and stationary (lower voltage and
current) or fast step (higher voltage to overcome the switching
inductance of the motor windings). Each axis presents a load on only
one phase, so the balance shifts with X-axis, Y-axis and Z-axis moves --
with load on one often causing the other two to be higher. The problem
is that the motor windings are stepped with power transistors which just
barely had enough maximum voltage rating, and an unbalanced rotary
converter can start popping transistors -- ones which are now hard to
find and thus expensive.

And this is neglecting what imbalance might be introduced by
other loads connected to the same rotary converter.

Enjoy,
DoN.


As a side note..Ive got a 25 hp Hitachi VFD I brought home last week
from So Cal, if anyone is interested. Probably late 80s/early 90s, but
appears to be unused.

Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Fri, 28 May 2010 00:16:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....


Filament transformers? ;-)


VBG

Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

As a side note..Ive got a 25 hp Hitachi VFD I brought home last week
from So Cal, if anyone is interested. Probably late 80s/early 90s, but
appears to be unused.

Gunner

220 volt? Then i need it

karl

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2010 00:16:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....


Filament transformers? ;-)

VBG


I've used tubes with dual, 1.5 VAC, 1000A filaments. The two
filaments had to be balanced to less than 1/100 volt difference to
prevent hum in the audio & video outputs.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Fri, 28 May 2010 03:37:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2010 00:16:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....


Filament transformers? ;-)

VBG


I've used tubes with dual, 1.5 VAC, 1000A filaments. The two
filaments had to be balanced to less than 1/100 volt difference to
prevent hum in the audio & video outputs.


GACK!!!!!

Good lord...one could cook a 5 course meal over those.

Metal or glass shell?

Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Don sez:

Not quite. The balance is a function of the load. Tune it
for proper balance with one machine (load) and if you turn on a
different one with a different horsepower, the balance will be off a
bit, as will it be when you turn on a second machine while the first is
running. (Each extra machine adds to the rotary transformer capability,
but does not add to the tuning capacitance.)

Well, it depends on how sensitive to additional "load" your RPC is. Tuning, (actually power factor
correction) in a well designed RPC is quite broad and is proportional to the ratio of load to idler
motor HP. In a good RPC voltage regulation over minor load variations is no problem. Don's
implication is correct; balance is a function of load. Good RPCs are designed to operate with a
fairly constant load to idler ratio. That is reason is it good practice to have a 1.5 to 2, or
greater, ratio.

A RPC is a strange animal, indeed. Think about it. The load(s) and idler are connected in parallel
but in order to feed a 3-phase load from a single-phase source the currents do not flow in parallel
! Balancing caps provide series resonant tuning from each side of the single-phase line to the
manufactured phase. Current flow is quite complex and defies simple math reasoning. It can be
shown that currents try to flow in opposite directions at the same time. The math system of
"symmetrical compoinents" is required to sort it all out.

Bob Swinney

On 2010-05-28, Robert Swinney wrote:
Don sez:

Not quite. The balance is a function of the load. Tune it
for proper balance with one machine (load) and if you turn on a
different one with a different horsepower, the balance will be off a
bit, as will it be when you turn on a second machine while the first is
running. (Each extra machine adds to the rotary transformer capability,
but does not add to the tuning capacitance.)

Well, it depends on how sensitive to additional "load" your RPC is. Tuning, (actually power factor
correction) in a well designed RPC is quite broad and is proportional to the ratio of load to idler
motor HP. In a good RPC voltage regulation over minor load variations is no problem. Don's
implication is correct; balance is a function of load. Good RPCs are designed to operate with a
fairly constant load to idler ratio. That is reason is it good practice to have a 1.5 to 2, or
greater, ratio.

My own converter gives decent voltages (close to one another) both
with and without load. I did test it.

i

Iggy sez:

"My own converter gives decent voltages (close to one another) both
with and without load. I did test it"

"Decent" is not a very definitive expression, so readers will have a hard time qualifying their
voltages. Also, you failed to mention if your RPC had correction caps or not. Per my statement
that: RPC idlers and loads are connected in parallel but their currents do not flow in parallel (by
the classic definition anyway). It follows that if the idler to load ratio is great enough you
don't really need to worry about PF correction caps. This in keeping with the well known
characteristic of a very low impedance swamping any regulation effects in a parallel connected load.

Bob Swinney
"Ignoramus26467" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-28, Robert Swinney wrote:
Don sez:

Not quite. The balance is a function of the load. Tune it
for proper balance with one machine (load) and if you turn on a
different one with a different horsepower, the balance will be off a
bit, as will it be when you turn on a second machine while the first is
running. (Each extra machine adds to the rotary transformer capability,
but does not add to the tuning capacitance.)

Well, it depends on how sensitive to additional "load" your RPC is. Tuning, (actually power
factor
correction) in a well designed RPC is quite broad and is proportional to the ratio of load to
idler
motor HP. In a good RPC voltage regulation over minor load variations is no problem. Don's
implication is correct; balance is a function of load. Good RPCs are designed to operate with a
fairly constant load to idler ratio. That is reason is it good practice to have a 1.5 to 2, or
greater, ratio.


i

On 2010-05-28, Robert Swinney wrote:
Iggy sez:

"My own converter gives decent voltages (close to one another) both
with and without load. I did test it"

"Decent" is not a very definitive expression, so readers will have a
hard time qualifying their voltages.

I do not remember the numbers, but I can redo it if anyone has any interest.

I believe that all voltages were within 10 volts at idle and maybe
about same (but in a different way) at load.

Also, you failed to mention if your RPC had correction caps or not.

It does. On both L1-L3 and L2-L3.

Per my statement that: RPC idlers and loads are connected in
parallel but their currents do not flow in parallel (by the classic
definition anyway). It follows that if the idler to load ratio is
great enough you don't really need to worry about PF correction
caps. This in keeping with the well known characteristic of a very
low impedance swamping any regulation effects in a parallel
connected load.

Makes sense.

i

Bob Swinney
"Ignoramus26467" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-28, Robert Swinney wrote:
Don sez:

Not quite. The balance is a function of the load. Tune it
for proper balance with one machine (load) and if you turn on a
different one with a different horsepower, the balance will be off a
bit, as will it be when you turn on a second machine while the first is
running. (Each extra machine adds to the rotary transformer capability,
but does not add to the tuning capacitance.)

Well, it depends on how sensitive to additional "load" your RPC is. Tuning, (actually power
factor
correction) in a well designed RPC is quite broad and is proportional to the ratio of load to
idler
motor HP. In a good RPC voltage regulation over minor load variations is no problem. Don's
implication is correct; balance is a function of load. Good RPCs are designed to operate with a
fairly constant load to idler ratio. That is reason is it good practice to have a 1.5 to 2, or
greater, ratio.


i

I have some thyratrons with 1000 amp plates, 22 amp filaments. Three were
used to drive a three phase motor. Three motors to one antenna.
That was one heavy antenna. The tubes are 4 pins in mil spec packaging.

Nice thing about tubes, they are like Timex watches - take a licking and keep
on ticking.

Martin


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 5/28/2010 3:04 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2010 03:37:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2010 00:16:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....


Filament transformers? ;-)

VBG


I've used tubes with dual, 1.5 VAC, 1000A filaments. The two
filaments had to be balanced to less than 1/100 volt difference to
prevent hum in the audio& video outputs.


GACK!!!!!

Good lord...one could cook a 5 course meal over those.

Metal or glass shell?

Gunner

big enough to build a nuclear bomb trigger.

On 2010-05-29, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
I have some thyratrons with 1000 amp plates, 22 amp filaments. Three were
used to drive a three phase motor. Three motors to one antenna.
That was one heavy antenna. The tubes are 4 pins in mil spec packaging.

Nice thing about tubes, they are like Timex watches - take a licking and keep
on ticking.

Martin


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 5/28/2010 3:04 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2010 03:37:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2010 00:16:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....


Filament transformers? ;-)

VBG


I've used tubes with dual, 1.5 VAC, 1000A filaments. The two
filaments had to be balanced to less than 1/100 volt difference to
prevent hum in the audio& video outputs.


GACK!!!!!

Good lord...one could cook a 5 course meal over those.

Metal or glass shell?

Gunner

Iggy sez:

On 2010-05-28, Robert Swinney wrote:
Iggy sez:

Makes sense.

i

Iggy,

If the parallel connected idler and load(s) with circulating currents not flowing in parallel makes
sense to you ..... it puts you way ahead of the pack in understanding RPCs. Most are so hung up on
the "idler as generator feeding a load" that they can't get their heads around current flow in
RPCs. I think I will place your name in nomination for a Fitch Fellow in the RPC Society.

Bob Swinney

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2010 03:37:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

I've used tubes with dual, 1.5 VAC, 1000A filaments. The two
filaments had to be balanced to less than 1/100 volt difference to
prevent hum in the audio & video outputs.

GACK!!!!!

Good lord...one could cook a 5 course meal over those.

Metal or glass shell?


All metal shell with high voltage, high temperature ceramic and glass
insulation around the terminals. They were the custom designed 25 KW
water cooled UHF power tetrodes video output tubes for the TTU-25B.
That was RCA's first 'High power' UHF TV transmitter. A similar 12.5 KW
tube was used for the Aural section of that transmitter. It was designed
& built in the early '50s. That's 37.5 KW of waste heat that required a
water chiller large enough to cool a decent sized office complex.


The three plate transformers were huge, too. It was all I could do to
move them with a heavy duty appliance hand truck. Then there was the 30
KV armored HV cable that ran from each transformer to the Thyratron
cabinet. That transmitter filled nine, four foot square aluminum
cabinets. It took three trips with a 28 foot U-haul truck to move all
that weight. I had to use an oxyacetylene torch to solder the four inch
copper pipes for the cooling system. It took 400 A 480 V three phase
just to power the transmitter. Then there was the control room, and the
studio lighting.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Ignoramus26467 wrote:

big enough to build a nuclear bomb trigger.


Wrong kind of tube. You need a Krytron, which is a controlled
device. You are not allowed to export them. They were made by EG&G A
Thyratron is much too slow to do the job.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Actually not far off Iggy - It turned the transmitting antenna
on the 1965 Radar that then proceeded into the PAR - the phased array radar.

The missiles shot could be loaded with tact nukes for destruction of many
MIRV bombs - most of which were nukes.

The filaments are about pencil size and more flat ribbon.

When I taught motor control or power tubes - I'd bring a pair in connect
up as a flip flop. The Argon gas inside glows when the plates are active.
You can also hear the impact (effect) of electron upon the plate. The plate
when switched on - square wave bam mode - would vibrate upon impact of the
beam. I used TFE wire - 20 ga - on the plates - smallest wire ever used
on them.

Martin


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 5/28/2010 9:29 PM, Ignoramus26467 wrote:
big enough to build a nuclear bomb trigger.

On 2010-05-29, Martin H. wrote:
I have some thyratrons with 1000 amp plates, 22 amp filaments. Three were
used to drive a three phase motor. Three motors to one antenna.
That was one heavy antenna. The tubes are 4 pins in mil spec packaging.

Nice thing about tubes, they are like Timex watches - take a licking and keep
on ticking.

Martin


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH& Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker& member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 5/28/2010 3:04 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2010 03:37:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2010 00:16:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:18 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I think I hate my son. I've been getting stuff together to make a *real
nice* phase converter. One that would do a couple 100 amp machines at the
same time.

He just called and told me he has REAL three phase on his property. Less
than a hundred feet from the machine shed. I'd give my left nut for real
three phase. I got a price of 20K several years back and should have done
it.

He may still get sticker shock on the hook up price and minimum monthy
charge but its there. he's going to ask this week. His one question 440 or
220? I'm thinking he's better with 220 and put the house on it to get some
useage. Good idea?

Karl


He is better with 440..but it can be damned inconvienent, so unless one
has a few good sized 440/220 3ph transformers kicking around...stay
with 220. Need a couple? Ive go several...
They start off at 300 lbs and go up from there....


Filament transformers? ;-)

VBG


I've used tubes with dual, 1.5 VAC, 1000A filaments. The two
filaments had to be balanced to less than 1/100 volt difference to
prevent hum in the audio& video outputs.


GACK!!!!!

Good lord...one could cook a 5 course meal over those.

Metal or glass shell?

Gunner