"Eregon" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in news:4bf5d851$0$31278
:

(BTW, I don't carry "papers," either)

Actually, Ed, you do if you still drive a vehicle (Driver's License) or
carry some form of photo ID for check-writing purposes. G

But some states issue driver's licenses to anyone. (Not my state, but a
couple do.)


Any government-issued ID qualifies as "papers" these days.

We'll see what Arizona accepts.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2010-05-21, Eregon wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in news:4bf5d851$0$31278
:

(BTW, I don't carry "papers," either)

Actually, Ed, you do if you still drive a vehicle (Driver's License) or
carry some form of photo ID for check-writing purposes. G

Any government-issued ID qualifies as "papers" these days.

I do not think that this is true. It would be a sensible thing to only
give licenses to people being here legally, but it just is not the
case.

http://www.theamericanresistance.com..._licenses.html

i

"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


"Eregon" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
news:4bf5d851$0$31278 :

(BTW, I don't carry "papers," either)

Actually, Ed, you do if you still drive a vehicle (Driver's License)
or carry some form of photo ID for check-writing purposes. G

But some states issue driver's licenses to anyone. (Not my state, but
a couple do.)


Any government-issued ID qualifies as "papers" these days.

We'll see what Arizona accepts.


According to the early news reports, a valid Driver's License or
government-issued photo ID.

In the absence of either, a document that attested to legal residency
("Green Card", passport card/booklet, etc.)

Once "Big Brother" has you in his files, Law Enforcement has an easy way
to verify your status.

Ignoramus15573 wrote:
I am a naturalized US citizen. My "immigration paper" is my US
passport. For those born here, the birth certificate is their
"immigration paper". Anyway, I do not see many people who travel or
walk around with passports or birth certificates.

Here's my question. Let's say that I am traveling through Arizona and
am stopped by the police for any reason. They would quickly figure
out, from my accent, that I should be suspected of being an illegal
immigrant. I usually wear cheap clothes, because I do not care, so I
do not look wealthy. My wife speaks with accent too and looks somewhat
Mexican.

Then they would have to haul me (or us) to jail and keep us there, until
somehow we produce our "papers". I do not even know how we would get
them out of our house, if the house is in IL and we are arrested in
AZ.

Somehow that seems overreaching.

What will really happen, of course, is that police will have leverage
over people with accent, as any one of them may be now jailed over a
"suspicion".

I recall how I was stopped by a police because they alleged that my
trailer with the Bridgeport Interact mill exceeded my licensed
capacity. I was able to argue with them and proved, on the spot, that
they were wrong. They let me go. It was a big luck moment.

I am thinking, that if they really wanted to rip me off, with this law
on the books, they would just threaten me with jail over a sudden
"suspicion" about my immigration status. If that happened not in my
state of residence, or especially if I had kids with me, I would have
no choice by to agree.


i

Actually if you have a passport they can access that in the database.
This is especially true for naturalized citizens.

Yes they may detain you for a few minutes while they pull the record up
but that shouldn't be a problem.

I was talking to a couple a week ago who had gotten the New York
enhanced license. This thing is supposed to be able to allow you to
drive across the border of Canada or Mexico and allow entry back into
the US without a passport.

They drove across at the NY border and went west through Canada. Then
they discovered that NONE of the border stations outside NY had the
equipment to read the chip in the license to allow them back in!! OOPS.
My simple answer was that they should have checked this out before they
left.

--
Steve W.
(\___/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Eregon wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in news:4bf5d851$0$31278
:

(BTW, I don't carry "papers," either)

Actually, Ed, you do if you still drive a vehicle (Driver's License) or
carry some form of photo ID for check-writing purposes. G

Any government-issued ID qualifies as "papers" these days.
Except in NM where the governor has mandated that even
illegal immigrants are to be issued drivers licenses. :-(
HOPEFULLY after this coming election that will change.
...Lew...

"Eregon" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


"Eregon" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
news:4bf5d851$0$31278 :

(BTW, I don't carry "papers," either)

Actually, Ed, you do if you still drive a vehicle (Driver's License)
or carry some form of photo ID for check-writing purposes. G

But some states issue driver's licenses to anyone. (Not my state, but
a couple do.)


Any government-issued ID qualifies as "papers" these days.

We'll see what Arizona accepts.


According to the early news reports, a valid Driver's License or
government-issued photo ID.

Well, as you've probably seen by now, the driver's licenses from some states
mean nothing, in relation to one's immigration status.


In the absence of either, a document that attested to legal residency
("Green Card", passport card/booklet, etc.)

I don't have a green card. My passport has expired. Sorry, I don't carry
anything that certifies I'm an American. Does that mean they can throw me in
jail in Arizona?


Once "Big Brother" has you in his files, Law Enforcement has an easy way
to verify your status.

Would they really try? Or would they arrest me on suspicion, because I don't
have anything on me that proves my status?

--
Ed Huntress

"Ignoramus15573" wrote in message
...
I am a naturalized US citizen. My "immigration paper" is my US
passport. For those born here, the birth certificate is their
"immigration paper". Anyway, I do not see many people who travel or
walk around with passports or birth certificates.

Here's my question. Let's say that I am traveling through Arizona and
am stopped by the police for any reason. They would quickly figure
out, from my accent, that I should be suspected of being an illegal
immigrant. I usually wear cheap clothes, because I do not care, so I
do not look wealthy. My wife speaks with accent too and looks somewhat
Mexican.

Before you became a citizen, you were required to carry your green card. If
you were to be questioned by the police under the new law and replied that
you were a naturalized US citizen that would either belie the officers
suspicions or he cauld make a quick check with immigration and your claim
would be verified. Or, if Illinois requires those they issue driver's
licenses to establish lawful residency, when you showed your Illinois
licence tothe cop that would presumptivly establish your right to be in AZ.





Then they would have to haul me (or us) to jail and keep us there, until
somehow we produce our "papers". I do not even know how we would get
them out of our house, if the house is in IL and we are arrested in
AZ.

Somehow that seems overreaching.

What will really happen, of course, is that police will have leverage
over people with accent, as any one of them may be now jailed over a
"suspicion".

I recall how I was stopped by a police because they alleged that my
trailer with the Bridgeport Interact mill exceeded my licensed
capacity. I was able to argue with them and proved, on the spot, that
they were wrong. They let me go. It was a big luck moment.

I am thinking, that if they really wanted to rip me off, with this law
on the books, they would just threaten me with jail over a sudden
"suspicion" about my immigration status. If that happened not in my
state of residence, or especially if I had kids with me, I would have
no choice by to agree.


I really doubt that you would be given much grief in AZ. I have driven all
across the country and AZ is not particularly known for nasty traffic cops.

As to being jailed for suspicion, this has happened to me. About 20 years
ago I had met an acquaintance at a coffee shop that I had not seen in
several years. When we had last met, he was working as a programmer and
getting $80 an hour. He was always dressed very smart with button down
collar shirts and always a tie. Now I find him dressed in thrift store
rags, a rope for his belt and hair down the middle of his back.

Since I was curious to hear his story, I offered to give him a ride home.
When I left the parking lot, I had inadvertently killed the headlights when
I signaled for the turn on to the street, but hadn't noticed this because
the street was a main drag and really well lit.

Unfortunately a cop noticed the lights off and pulled me over. I had
purchased this car about a month before and had yet to register it in my
name because I was waiting for a bill of sale from the owner of record to an
interim purchaser that had sold the car to the guy that I got the car from.
(Confusing I agree but I did have the certificate of title.)

My friend commences to mouthing off to the cop,and my troubles deepen. As
you may be aware, I am a locksmith, and the cop noticed some of my tools in
plain sight. This gives rise to the cops suspicion that I may be in
possession of burglary tools with some evil intent.

While he searches my car, he finds a rock that was incrusted with salt that
I had picked up when I stopped at the rest stop near the Bonneville salt
flats coming through Utah. He also found an empty tin of coffee candies
that has some residual powdered sugar still in the can.

We were released from jail once the preliminary tests for drugs were
negative, the following Monday I got my tools back when I showed up wearing
my locksmith uniform, and I think that they even dropped the headlight
change sticking me only with the towing bill.

While I was ****ed at the time, the cop had every reason to be suspicious of
me, and while this detention was a hassle, my rights were not unreasonably
violated.

This kind of thing happens to a small percentage of innocent people on a
regular basis. If I had been alone or my friend had not ****ed off the cop,
he likely would have let me off with a warning or just a ticket.

The point being that sometimes the suspicion warrants further inquiry. The
extent further inquiry is always a question of individual circumstances.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

I don't have a green card. My passport has expired. Sorry, I don't carry
anything that certifies I'm an American. Does that mean they can throw me
in
jail in Arizona?


Once "Big Brother" has you in his files, Law Enforcement has an easy way
to verify your status.

Would they really try? Or would they arrest me on suspicion, because I
don't
have anything on me that proves my status?

--

In reading the AZ law and the related discussions, once the cop has reason
to stop and question you, (tail lamp burned out) if you have a driver's
license issued from AZ or another state that requires proof of legal status
to issue the document, the inquiry ends. If you claim to be a citizen of
the US, or an alien lawfully here but can't prove it on the spot, they might
detain you long enough to verify your claim. In most cases this would be a
quick computer check and you are on your way and the cop can get back to
looking for bad guys.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

I'm pretty sure that enhanced license runs off a RFID signal. They
should keep their drivers license in a mylar anti static bag or folded
in aluminum foil when not in use. It's theroetically possible for
others to scan thier information right out of the wallet.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve W."
wrote in message ...


Actually if you have a passport they can access that in the database.
This is especially true for naturalized citizens.

Yes they may detain you for a few minutes while they pull the record
up
but that shouldn't be a problem.

I was talking to a couple a week ago who had gotten the New York
enhanced license. This thing is supposed to be able to allow you to
drive across the border of Canada or Mexico and allow entry back into
the US without a passport.

They drove across at the NY border and went west through Canada. Then
they discovered that NONE of the border stations outside NY had the
equipment to read the chip in the license to allow them back in!!
OOPS.
My simple answer was that they should have checked this out before
they
left.

--
Steve W.
(\___/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Would be nice if we could barge all those illegals to China, and
return cheep tools. I'd favor that.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Stormin Mormon wrote:

One fellow at a scrap recycling place near me says the Chinese are
buying a lot of scrap metals. I suspet that we send them scrap
metals,
and they send us consumer goods at Walmart, and Harbor Freight.


Would you rather have too many cheap tools, or too many Mexicans?
;-)


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have
to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Thu, 20 May 2010 20:48:14 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"dan" wrote in message
...
What's that Lassie? You say that Ed Huntress fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Wed, 19 May 2010 22:42:55 -0400:

This may well be the case, but what prevents Arizona from
giving all the "undocumented immigrants" they discover
one-way bus tickets (or if they have a car, gas vouchers) to
LA, Sacramento, etc. as an alternative to immediate
arrest/deportation? Arizona could even include 100$ per
head travel expense money and U-Haul rental and still be
ahead.
--

-- Unka George (George McDuffee)

I suppose they could, but if they tried it, California could send a LOT
more
back to Arizona. Estimates are that California has 8 or 9 times as many as
Arizona.

How would they identify them?

The same way Arizona is planning to -- by the color of their skin and the
clothes they wear. Speaking Spanish isn't going to win you any points,
either.

No papers? Too bad, senor.

(BTW, I don't carry "papers," either)

Perhaps California could intact a law
that would let police ask about the immigration status of anyone they
are questioning.

I'd be in trouble. No one in my family has had immigration papers since
1657. And they landed just around where you live.


I find this discussion and the complaints of the Californians a bit
humorous.

In the mid 60's I was stationed at Bangor Maine and was driving down
to New Hampshire. I came on a cruiser parked on the side of the road
and a guy with a uniform standing there who flagged me down. I stopped
and the chap said, "would you mind telling me where you were born,
sir?" Kind of a strange thing to say to a guy out on the side of a
country road, but I replied, "New Hampshire" and the fellow sort of
saluted and waved me on.

Some time later I saw some of the Border Patrol pistol team and
mentioned it to them. "Silly thing to ask a guy" way out there in the
country. The Border Patrol guy replied, "Try answering with a French
accent".

It has taken 45 years for me to find out that my civil rights were
trampled on.


John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

Would be nice if we could barge all those illegals to China, and
return cheep tools. I'd favor that.


They might produce a better product than the current labor force does.

On 2010-05-21, John B Slocomb wrote:
In the mid 60's I was stationed at Bangor Maine and was driving down
to New Hampshire. I came on a cruiser parked on the side of the road
and a guy with a uniform standing there who flagged me down. I stopped
and the chap said, "would you mind telling me where you were born,
sir?" Kind of a strange thing to say to a guy out on the side of a
country road, but I replied, "New Hampshire" and the fellow sort of
saluted and waved me on.

Some time later I saw some of the Border Patrol pistol team and
mentioned it to them. "Silly thing to ask a guy" way out there in the
country. The Border Patrol guy replied, "Try answering with a French
accent".

OK, what do you think would have happened if you did reply with a
French accent???

i

On Thu, 20 May 2010 21:16:42 -0600, Lewis Hartswick
wrote the following:

Eregon wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in news:4bf5d851$0$31278
:

(BTW, I don't carry "papers," either)

Actually, Ed, you do if you still drive a vehicle (Driver's License) or
carry some form of photo ID for check-writing purposes. G

Any government-issued ID qualifies as "papers" these days.
Except in NM where the governor has mandated that even
illegal immigrants are to be issued drivers licenses. :-(
HOPEFULLY after this coming election that will change.

Vote HARD, Lew.

--
Perfect as the wing of a bird may be, it will never enable the bird to
fly if unsupported by the air. Facts are the air of science. Without
them a man of science can never rise. -- Ivan Pavlov

And that, my friends, is what's doggin' global warming extremists. -LJ

On Thu, 20 May 2010 23:39:07 -0700, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote the following:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

I don't have a green card. My passport has expired. Sorry, I don't carry
anything that certifies I'm an American. Does that mean they can throw me
in
jail in Arizona?


Once "Big Brother" has you in his files, Law Enforcement has an easy way
to verify your status.

Would they really try? Or would they arrest me on suspicion, because I
don't
have anything on me that proves my status?

--

In reading the AZ law and the related discussions, once the cop has reason
to stop and question you, (tail lamp burned out) if you have a driver's
license issued from AZ or another state that requires proof of legal status
to issue the document, the inquiry ends. If you claim to be a citizen of
the US, or an alien lawfully here but can't prove it on the spot, they might
detain you long enough to verify your claim. In most cases this would be a
quick computer check and you are on your way and the cop can get back to
looking for bad guys.

Cops don't look for bad guys, they look for donut shops. The
unfortunate reality today is that it's just a job for them, and most
do _not_ consider it a calling, or a life's work. I learned that
while waiting outside the courtroom while they tried the last illegal
who broke into my house. The cops knew the legal system was broken,
too, and they talked about it amongst themselves all day.

--
Perfect as the wing of a bird may be, it will never enable the bird to
fly if unsupported by the air. Facts are the air of science. Without
them a man of science can never rise. -- Ivan Pavlov

And that, my friends, is what's doggin' global warming extremists. -LJ

On 2010-05-21, Roger Shoaf wrote:
In reading the AZ law and the related discussions, once the cop has reason
to stop and question you, (tail lamp burned out) if you have a driver's
license issued from AZ or another state that requires proof of legal status
to issue the document, the inquiry ends. If you claim to be a citizen of
the US, or an alien lawfully here but can't prove it on the spot, they might
detain you long enough to verify your claim. In most cases this would be a
quick computer check and you are on your way and the cop can get back to
looking for bad guys.

Well, I guess, if they can quickly check legal immigration status
based on ID, I would not be as upset with the law as it applies to
me.

i

Ignoramus28763 wrote:
On 2010-05-21, Roger Shoaf wrote:
In reading the AZ law and the related discussions, once the cop has reason
to stop and question you, (tail lamp burned out) if you have a driver's
license issued from AZ or another state that requires proof of legal status
to issue the document, the inquiry ends. If you claim to be a citizen of
the US, or an alien lawfully here but can't prove it on the spot, they might
detain you long enough to verify your claim. In most cases this would be a
quick computer check and you are on your way and the cop can get back to
looking for bad guys.

Well, I guess, if they can quickly check legal immigration status
based on ID, I would not be as upset with the law as it applies to
me.

i


834b. (a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully
cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization
Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is
suspected of being present in the United States in violation of
federal immigration laws.

(b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected
of being present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the
following:

(1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen
of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent
resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time
or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of
immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not
be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and
place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding
documentation to indicate his or her legal status.

(2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien
who is present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal
justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or
leave the United States.

(3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United
States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal
status and provide any additional information that may be requested
by any other public entity.

(c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city,
county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with
jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent
or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly
prohibited.

On Fri, 21 May 2010 08:54:17 -0400, John Husvar
wrote the following:

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

Would be nice if we could barge all those illegals to China, and
return cheep tools. I'd favor that.


They might produce a better product than the current labor force does.

Yabbut, they'd never work for those low Chinese wages, which are lower
than they got in their home country. That's especially true after
we've spoiled them with our much higher wages here.

--
Perfect as the wing of a bird may be, it will never enable the bird to
fly if unsupported by the air. Facts are the air of science. Without
them a man of science can never rise. -- Ivan Pavlov

And that, my friends, is what's doggin' global warming extremists. -LJ

"Stormin Mormon" on Fri, 21 May
2010 08:40:32 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
I'm pretty sure that enhanced license runs off a RFID signal. They
should keep their drivers license in a mylar anti static bag or folded
in aluminum foil when not in use. It's theroetically possible for
others to scan thier information right out of the wallet.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Steve W."
wrote in message ...


Actually if you have a passport they can access that in the database.
This is especially true for naturalized citizens.

Yes they may detain you for a few minutes while they pull the record
up
but that shouldn't be a problem.

I was talking to a couple a week ago who had gotten the New York
enhanced license. This thing is supposed to be able to allow you to
drive across the border of Canada or Mexico and allow entry back into
the US without a passport.

They drove across at the NY border and went west through Canada. Then
they discovered that NONE of the border stations outside NY had the
equipment to read the chip in the license to allow them back in!!
OOPS.
My simple answer was that they should have checked this out before
they
left.

My "simpler" answer was to get my passport. Old fashioned, not
so high tech, and I have it now if I ever need it for other reasons.

Way back when I was a boy, back when passports were Green, my dad
was planning a trip to Japan, for some shopping. Decided I could come
along too. What the hey, it wasn't like I was doing anything _in_
school (I was on 'strike'). Then my younger brother piped up "Isn't
he going to need a passport?" Oh yes in deedy, I was, and a visa,
too.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Lewis Hartswick on Thu, 20 May 2010
07:33:48 -0600 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
rangerssuck wrote:

I did a major double take this afternoon. My doorbell rang, and there
were three very clean-cut young men in white shirts & black ties,
carrying pamphlets. I immediately concluded that I was about to be
invited to join the Mormon Church.

I was wrong.

They were selling vinyl siding and replacement windows.

I am somewhat disappointed in myself for having been so prejudiced. Of
course, I'm no big fan of home improvement sales people, either. But
all the same, I shouldn't have jumped so quickly to characterize them.

I believe that is called "Profiling". :-)
...lew...

The story I read was of the third generation Chinese guy, who
opened the door to see the Two Earnest young men, with their phrase
book, going through it trying to talk with him. Finally, he can't
stand it anymore, and yells at them "Why don't learn English or go
back to your own country where you came from!" Slams the door and
laughs so hard, he hurt himself.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Ignoramus28763" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-21, John B Slocomb wrote:
In the mid 60's I was stationed at Bangor Maine and was driving down
to New Hampshire. I came on a cruiser parked on the side of the road
and a guy with a uniform standing there who flagged me down. I stopped
and the chap said, "would you mind telling me where you were born,
sir?" Kind of a strange thing to say to a guy out on the side of a
country road, but I replied, "New Hampshire" and the fellow sort of
saluted and waved me on.

Some time later I saw some of the Border Patrol pistol team and
mentioned it to them. "Silly thing to ask a guy" way out there in the
country. The Border Patrol guy replied, "Try answering with a French
accent".

OK, what do you think would have happened if you did reply with a
French accent???

i

He would have got some follow up questions and the agent would have either
been satisfied or continued the probe until he determined what action he was
going to take.

See http://supreme.justia.com/us/428/543/case.html

Also see http://supreme.justia.com/us/422/873/case.html this case was
distinguished from the above case because the person that had been convicted
of being a "coyote" was successful in arguing that the roving stop just
because they looked Mexican was unconstitutional, but the illegal he was
transporting got the boot anyway.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

Ignoramus15573 wrote:
I am a naturalized US citizen. My "immigration paper" is my US
passport. For those born here, the birth certificate is their
"immigration paper". Anyway, I do not see many people who travel or
walk around with passports or birth certificates.

Here's my question. Let's say that I am traveling through Arizona and
am stopped by the police for any reason. They would quickly figure
out, from my accent, that I should be suspected of being an illegal
immigrant. I usually wear cheap clothes, because I do not care, so I
do not look wealthy. My wife speaks with accent too and looks somewhat
Mexican.

Then they would have to haul me (or us) to jail and keep us there,
until somehow we produce our "papers". I do not even know how we
would get them out of our house, if the house is in IL and we are
arrested in
AZ.

Somehow that seems overreaching.

What will really happen, of course, is that police will have leverage
over people with accent, as any one of them may be now jailed over a
"suspicion".

I recall how I was stopped by a police because they alleged that my
trailer with the Bridgeport Interact mill exceeded my licensed
capacity. I was able to argue with them and proved, on the spot, that
they were wrong. They let me go. It was a big luck moment.

I am thinking, that if they really wanted to rip me off, with this law
on the books, they would just threaten me with jail over a sudden
"suspicion" about my immigration status. If that happened not in my
state of residence, or especially if I had kids with me, I would have
no choice by to agree.


i

no. you should actually read the law instead of getting your information
from the media.

in az, possession of a drivers license is evidence of legal residency in the
US. that cop is going to look at your drivers license and send you on the
way. of course, he would have had to have had a reason for stopping you in
the first place that he will have to take care of first, or he could get
sued (again, read the law).

On Fri, 21 May 2010 10:54:05 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Lewis Hartswick on Thu, 20 May 2010
07:33:48 -0600 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
rangerssuck wrote:

I did a major double take this afternoon. My doorbell rang, and there
were three very clean-cut young men in white shirts & black ties,
carrying pamphlets. I immediately concluded that I was about to be
invited to join the Mormon Church.

I was wrong.

They were selling vinyl siding and replacement windows.

I am somewhat disappointed in myself for having been so prejudiced. Of
course, I'm no big fan of home improvement sales people, either. But
all the same, I shouldn't have jumped so quickly to characterize them.

I believe that is called "Profiling". :-)
...lew...

The story I read was of the third generation Chinese guy, who
opened the door to see the Two Earnest young men, with their phrase
book, going through it trying to talk with him. Finally, he can't
stand it anymore, and yells at them "Why don't learn English or go
back to your own country where you came from!" Slams the door and
laughs so hard, he hurt himself.

Thank you, Pytor!

On 2010-05-21, chaniarts wrote:
Ignoramus15573 wrote:
I am a naturalized US citizen. My "immigration paper" is my US
passport. For those born here, the birth certificate is their
"immigration paper". Anyway, I do not see many people who travel or
walk around with passports or birth certificates.

Here's my question. Let's say that I am traveling through Arizona and
am stopped by the police for any reason. They would quickly figure
out, from my accent, that I should be suspected of being an illegal
immigrant. I usually wear cheap clothes, because I do not care, so I
do not look wealthy. My wife speaks with accent too and looks somewhat
Mexican.

Then they would have to haul me (or us) to jail and keep us there,
until somehow we produce our "papers". I do not even know how we
would get them out of our house, if the house is in IL and we are
arrested in
AZ.

Somehow that seems overreaching.

What will really happen, of course, is that police will have leverage
over people with accent, as any one of them may be now jailed over a
"suspicion".

I recall how I was stopped by a police because they alleged that my
trailer with the Bridgeport Interact mill exceeded my licensed
capacity. I was able to argue with them and proved, on the spot, that
they were wrong. They let me go. It was a big luck moment.

I am thinking, that if they really wanted to rip me off, with this law
on the books, they would just threaten me with jail over a sudden
"suspicion" about my immigration status. If that happened not in my
state of residence, or especially if I had kids with me, I would have
no choice by to agree.


i

no. you should actually read the law instead of getting your information
from the media.

in az, possession of a drivers license is evidence of legal residency in the

Not quite so.

Actually the Arizona law says "A valid Arizona driver license."

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....ls/hb2162c.htm

So, if I am driving through Arizona, with another state's driver's
license, and that state does not verify immigration status, and I
speak with accent, they would be justified in detaining me.

I read the law a little bit and it seems outright weird.

``it is unlawful to ... ... Encourage ... an alien to come to or
reside in this state''

Which seems to violate the First Amendment.

Say, I reside in Arizona publish a website that says something like
"dear illegal aliens, please come live in Arizona, the weather is nice
etc". That seems to be protected speech, and yet it would be illegal
under this law.

US. that cop is going to look at your drivers license and send you on the
way. of course, he would have had to have had a reason for stopping you in
the first place that he will have to take care of first, or he could get
sued (again, read the law).

On Fri, 21 May 2010 15:58:29 -0500, Ignoramus28763
wrote:
snip
``it is unlawful to ... ... Encourage ... an alien to come to or
reside in this state''

Which seems to violate the First Amendment.

Say, I reside in Arizona publish a website that says something like
"dear illegal aliens, please come live in Arizona, the weather is nice
etc". That seems to be protected speech, and yet it would be illegal
under this law.
snip
========
Incitement to a crime [illegal immigration] is a crime and
not protected, although some sort of specific proposed overt
action, such as posting information that you will be at such
and such a location at a given time/date to provide
transport, a safe house and documents is required.

Another example is anti-immigrant rhetoric. Vent as much as
you like, but to suggest a specific illegal action such as
"lets all meet at 2 PM on Tuesday at the corner of Third and
Main and start exterminating the vermin -- bring your own
guns and ammo," is not protected, and is subject to
prosecution under the incitement to riot statutes [among
many others].

--
-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On May 20, 7:21*pm, Ignoramus15573 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15573.invalid wrote:
I am a naturalized US citizen. My "immigration paper" is my US
passport. For those born here, the birth certificate is their
"immigration paper". Anyway, I do not see many people who travel or
walk around with passports or birth certificates.

Here's my question. Let's say that I am traveling through Arizona and
am stopped by the police for any reason. They would quickly figure
out, from my accent, that I should be suspected of being an illegal
immigrant. I usually wear cheap clothes, because I do not care, so I
do not look wealthy. My wife speaks with accent too and looks somewhat
Mexican.

Then they would have to haul me (or us) to jail and keep us there, until
somehow we produce our "papers". I do not even know how we would get
them out of our house, if the house is in IL and we are arrested in
AZ.

Somehow that seems overreaching.

What will really happen, of course, is that police will have leverage
over people with accent, as any one of them may be now jailed over a
"suspicion".

I recall how I was stopped by a police because they alleged that my
trailer with the Bridgeport Interact mill exceeded my licensed
capacity. I was able to argue with them and proved, on the spot, that
they were wrong. They let me go. It was a big luck moment.

I am thinking, that if they really wanted to rip me off, with this law
on the books, they would just threaten me with jail over a sudden
"suspicion" about my immigration status. If that happened not in my
state of residence, or especially if I had kids with me, I would have
no choice by to agree.

i

In your hypothetical traffic stop, a US state driver's license and
proof of insurance would be sufficient for ID, if you didn't have
either, THEN you'd be in for a hard time, illegal alien or no. They'd
run the license to see if it was legit and that you weren't wanted for
anything. Lots of illegals around here with either a Mexican license
or no license and no insurance at all. Lots of bargains at the
impound lot on Wednesdays(auction day), too. You pretty much HAVE to
have a driver's license or a state ID card to live anymore, cash a
check, use a credit card, buy a gun from a dealer, you have to show
ID. If you're stopped for a traffic violation, you've got to show it
anyway, a passport or birth certificate won't do, either.

Stan

"Ignoramus28763" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-21, chaniarts wrote:

in az, possession of a drivers license is evidence of legal residency in
the

Not quite so.

Actually the Arizona law says "A valid Arizona driver license."


http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....ls/hb2162c.htm

So, if I am driving through Arizona, with another state's driver's
license, and that state does not verify immigration status, and I
speak with accent, they would be justified in detaining me.

I read the law a little bit and it seems outright weird.

You didn't read quite far enough:

§11-1051[b] For any lawful contact stop, detention or arrest made by a law
enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law
enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or
other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any other
law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where reasonable
suspicion exists that the person is an alien who and is unlawfully present
in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable,
to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the
determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. If the entity
requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any
valid United States federal, state or local government issued
identification....*A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully
present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement
officer or agency any of the following:*

1. A valid Arizona driver license.

2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

4. * If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States
before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government
issued identification.*




``it is unlawful to ... ... Encourage ... an alien to come to or
reside in this state''

Which seems to violate the First Amendment.

Say, I reside in Arizona publish a website that says something like
"dear illegal aliens, please come live in Arizona, the weather is nice
etc". That seems to be protected speech, and yet it would be illegal
under this law.


Freedom of speech does not allow someone to yell "fire!" in a crowded
theater.

You can assert the President of the United States is a __________________
(fill in the blank) but you can't encourage someone to kill him.

There are other restrictions on free speech also, but even things like
burning the US flag is protected speech. It is usually a pretty safe bet to
state your opinion such as "I think aliens should just storm the boarder"
but those kind of things can get iffy. Better to opine that you think the
law is wrong and should be changed"

The usual way the constitutionality of laws is tested is that someone
violates the questioned law and then he has the standing to allege that his
right was violated. That way the court has a specific question to answer
rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

On 2010-05-21, Roger Shoaf wrote:

"Ignoramus28763" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-21, chaniarts wrote:

in az, possession of a drivers license is evidence of legal residency in
the

Not quite so.

Actually the Arizona law says "A valid Arizona driver license."


http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....ls/hb2162c.htm

So, if I am driving through Arizona, with another state's driver's
license, and that state does not verify immigration status, and I
speak with accent, they would be justified in detaining me.

I read the law a little bit and it seems outright weird.

You didn't read quite far enough:

?11-1051[b] For any lawful contact stop, detention or arrest made by a law
enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law
enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or
other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any other
law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where reasonable
suspicion exists that the person is an alien who and is unlawfully present
in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable,
to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the
determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. If the entity
requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any
valid United States federal, state or local government issued
identification....*A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully
present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement
officer or agency any of the following:*

1. A valid Arizona driver license.

2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

4. * If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States
before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government
issued identification.*

Which is EXACTLY as I said.


i

"Ignoramus28763" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-21, Roger Shoaf wrote:

"Ignoramus28763" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-21, chaniarts wrote:

in az, possession of a drivers license is evidence of legal residency
in
the

Not quite so.

Actually the Arizona law says "A valid Arizona driver license."



http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....ls/hb2162c.htm

So, if I am driving through Arizona, with another state's driver's
license, and that state does not verify immigration status, and I
speak with accent, they would be justified in detaining me.

I read the law a little bit and it seems outright weird.

You didn't read quite far enough:

?11-1051[b] For any lawful contact stop, detention or arrest made by a
law
enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law
enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town
or
other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any
other
law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where
reasonable
suspicion exists that the person is an alien who and is unlawfully
present
in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when
practicable,
to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the
determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. If the entity
requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance,
any
valid United States federal, state or local government issued
identification....*A person is presumed to not be an alien who is
unlawfully
present in the United States if the person provides to the law
enforcement
officer or agency any of the following:*

1. A valid Arizona driver license.

2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal
identification.

4. * If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States
before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local
government
issued identification.*

Which is EXACTLY as I said.


i

Look specifically at this:

* If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States
before issuance, *any valid*..., state [Illinois seems to qualify] ...*
issued identification.* [your IL DL]

The AZ driver's license is only *one* of the documents that establish the
presumption of lawful status..

AZ gains nothing by jacking up legal residents, visitors, and citizens, they
do not even attempt to do so.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Fri, 21 May 2010 10:54:05 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote the following:

Lewis Hartswick on Thu, 20 May 2010
07:33:48 -0600 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
rangerssuck wrote:

I did a major double take this afternoon. My doorbell rang, and there
were three very clean-cut young men in white shirts & black ties,
carrying pamphlets. I immediately concluded that I was about to be
invited to join the Mormon Church.

I was wrong.

They were selling vinyl siding and replacement windows.

I am somewhat disappointed in myself for having been so prejudiced. Of
course, I'm no big fan of home improvement sales people, either. But
all the same, I shouldn't have jumped so quickly to characterize them.

I believe that is called "Profiling". :-)
...lew...

The story I read was of the third generation Chinese guy, who
opened the door to see the Two Earnest young men, with their phrase
book, going through it trying to talk with him. Finally, he can't
stand it anymore, and yells at them "Why don't learn English or go
back to your own country where you came from!" Slams the door and
laughs so hard, he hurt himself.

I love it!

--
Perfect as the wing of a bird may be, it will never enable the bird to
fly if unsupported by the air. Facts are the air of science. Without
them a man of science can never rise. -- Ivan Pavlov

And that, my friends, is what's doggin' global warming extremists. -LJ

On Thu, 20 May 2010 20:21:39 -0500, Ignoramus15573
wrote:

I am a naturalized US citizen. My "immigration paper" is my US
passport. For those born here, the birth certificate is their
"immigration paper". Anyway, I do not see many people who travel or
walk around with passports or birth certificates.

Here's my question. Let's say that I am traveling through Arizona and
am stopped by the police for any reason. They would quickly figure
out, from my accent, that I should be suspected of being an illegal
immigrant. I usually wear cheap clothes, because I do not care, so I
do not look wealthy. My wife speaks with accent too and looks somewhat
Mexican.

Then they would have to haul me (or us) to jail and keep us there, until
somehow we produce our "papers". I do not even know how we would get
them out of our house, if the house is in IL and we are arrested in
AZ.

Utter bull****. Simply show them your Valid drivers license/social
security card and be on your way.

Illegals cannot get a valid drivers license or Valid social security
card.

When I was playing cop, and even today..most cops use the drivers
license as SS cards are available for $15 at most public parks and swap
meets.

Of course..you will be carrying the same SS # as a couple hundred other
people....

Gunner



Somehow that seems overreaching.

What will really happen, of course, is that police will have leverage
over people with accent, as any one of them may be now jailed over a
"suspicion".

I recall how I was stopped by a police because they alleged that my
trailer with the Bridgeport Interact mill exceeded my licensed
capacity. I was able to argue with them and proved, on the spot, that
they were wrong. They let me go. It was a big luck moment.

I am thinking, that if they really wanted to rip me off, with this law
on the books, they would just threaten me with jail over a sudden
"suspicion" about my immigration status. If that happened not in my
state of residence, or especially if I had kids with me, I would have
no choice by to agree.


i

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Fri, 21 May 2010 16:31:19 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 15:58:29 -0500, Ignoramus28763
wrote:
snip
``it is unlawful to ... ... Encourage ... an alien to come to or
reside in this state''

Which seems to violate the First Amendment.

Say, I reside in Arizona publish a website that says something like
"dear illegal aliens, please come live in Arizona, the weather is nice
etc". That seems to be protected speech, and yet it would be illegal
under this law.
snip
========
Incitement to a crime [illegal immigration] is a crime and
not protected, although some sort of specific proposed overt
action, such as posting information that you will be at such
and such a location at a given time/date to provide
transport, a safe house and documents is required.

Another example is anti-immigrant rhetoric. Vent as much as
you like, but to suggest a specific illegal action such as
"lets all meet at 2 PM on Tuesday at the corner of Third and
Main and start exterminating the vermin -- bring your own
guns and ammo," is not protected, and is subject to
prosecution under the incitement to riot statutes [among
many others].


One of the things the vermin dont like..is Arizona makes it a felony to
aid an illegal in staying inside the US.


Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Thu, 20 May 2010 10:46:25 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

One fellow at a scrap recycling place near me says the Chinese are
buying a lot of scrap metals. I suspet that we send them scrap metals,
and they send us consumer goods at Walmart, and Harbor Freight.

Better than what the Japs did with our scrap metal in December, 1941....

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
om...



Even better, put them on the empty ships returning to China. They
are always looking for cheap labor.

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch wrote:

Illegals cannot get a valid drivers license or Valid social security
card.

Gunner


Unfortunately at present they can in NM. most of
the "would be" governors are saying they will
stop that practice "if elected".
...lew...

On Sun, 23 May 2010 06:40:56 -0600, Lewis Hartswick
wrote the following:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Illegals cannot get a valid drivers license or Valid social security
card.

Gunner


Unfortunately at present they can in NM. most of
the "would be" governors are saying they will
stop that practice "if elected".

You should have also told Gunner that we have DHS enforced borders,
and that coming across illegally is impossible. Just ask the DHS or
the Border Patrol. Uh, huh.

--
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when
they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

Gunner Asch on Sat, 22 May 2010 20:48:31 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Then they would have to haul me (or us) to jail and keep us there, until
somehow we produce our "papers". I do not even know how we would get
them out of our house, if the house is in IL and we are arrested in
AZ.

Utter bull****. Simply show them your Valid drivers license/social
security card and be on your way.

Illegals cannot get a valid drivers license or Valid social security
card.

When I was playing cop, and even today..most cops use the drivers
license as SS cards are available for $15 at most public parks and swap
meets.

Unfortunately, far too many states will issue drivers license on
the flimsiest of documentation.

--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sat, 22 May 2010 20:48:31 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Then they would have to haul me (or us) to jail and keep us there, until
somehow we produce our "papers". I do not even know how we would get
them out of our house, if the house is in IL and we are arrested in
AZ.

Utter bull****. Simply show them your Valid drivers license/social
security card and be on your way.

Illegals cannot get a valid drivers license or Valid social security
card.

When I was playing cop, and even today..most cops use the drivers
license as SS cards are available for $15 at most public parks and swap
meets.

Unfortunately, far too many states will issue drivers license on
the flimsiest of documentation.


Florida now requires your birth certificate.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On May 20, 9:22*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

But some states issue driver's licenses to anyone. (Not my state, but a
couple do.)



Any government-issued ID qualifies as "papers" these days.

We'll see what Arizona accepts.

--
Ed Huntress

This is from the Arizona Bill. Note Number 4. It says that a drivers
license from a state that requires proof of legal presence before
issue is valid proof.
So your N.J. license would be fine. But a N.M. license would not be
acceptable as N.M. does not require proof of legal presence before
issuing the drivers license.

Dan

A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in
the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement
officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.

2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal
identification.

4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United
States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or
local government issued identification.

On May 21, 1:54*pm, pyotr filipivich wrote:


* * * * The story I read was of the third generation Chinese guy, who
opened the door to see the Two Earnest young men, with their phrase
book, going through it trying to talk with him. *Finally, he can't
stand it anymore, and yells at them "Why don't learn English or go
back to your own country where you came from!" *Slams the door and
laughs so hard, he hurt himself.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Reminds me of a supervisor I had that wanted to refuse to interview a
married female engineer that had a Japanese middle name. He was
afraid that she would not be able to communicate with the U.S.
government engineers. He was forced to interview her as she met all
the requirements in the job description. She was born in Hawaii and
spoke better English than he did.

Dan

wrote in message
...
On May 20, 9:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

But some states issue driver's licenses to anyone. (Not my state, but a
couple do.)



Any government-issued ID qualifies as "papers" these days.

We'll see what Arizona accepts.

--
Ed Huntress

This is from the Arizona Bill. Note Number 4. It says that a drivers
license from a state that requires proof of legal presence before
issue is valid proof.
So your N.J. license would be fine. But a N.M. license would not be
acceptable as N.M. does not require proof of legal presence before
issuing the drivers license.

Interesting. So if I had a NM license, my problem probably would be that
they wouldn't believe that anyone could be as white as me. g

--
Ed Huntress

Dan

A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in
the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement
officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.

2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal
identification.

4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United
States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or
local government issued identification.