Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Capstan project

Hello everyone

Capstans - have had a project in mind to make a capstan for some time
now. Anyone any experience or ideas on capstans?

Last summer, rescued a worm-drive gearbox from a machine being
scrapped - had a 15HP electric motor attached - big beast. Gives 50:1
reduction.

Overall idea is that if had small petrol/gasoline (or diesel) engine
attached, would be useful tool.

Anyone have ideas about how to make the capstan barrel with its waist
in the middle?

Bearing arrangement for capstan?

Any ideas how to size the capstan barrel and what shape it should be -
are there "rules" or "rules of thumb" about capstan proportions?

My idea is to take some steel pipe and slice "eye" shaped slits out of
it longways evenly around the circumference then collapse the tube in
the middle until the edges of the "eye" slits touch, then weld up.


Another line of enquiry:

Calculations suggest that if you chose the right size of motor, you
could come near to but not exceed the breaking strength of your rope
by reason that the motor would stall first - for any revs / inhaul
speed. Would make this machine very easy to use if that were the case
- wouldn't need any gauges or whatever.

Here is how I calculate this

Work done = force x distance
Therefore
Power = force x velocity
(where velocity means in this case the inhaul speed)

The faster the motor is turning and the more power it is making, the
faster the inhaul rate so it's doing more work - so engine
throttle-opening is self-cancelling and with power approximately
proportional to revs, you end up with a capstan which will always pull
the rope to the same maximum force at any revs be it slow or fast???

This is theoretical - and real experience say how these machines
really behave?

By these calculations, where the capstan is about 125mm (5inch) dia at
the waist, would I be about right in my estimation that a 6.5HP motor
should never be able to break a 12mm (1/2inch) polypropylene rope
which is in good condition?

Thanks in advance

Richard Smith
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Default Capstan project

On 19 May 2010 11:10:37 +0100, Richard Smith
wrote:

Hello everyone

Capstans - have had a project in mind to make a capstan for some time
now. Anyone any experience or ideas on capstans?

Last summer, rescued a worm-drive gearbox from a machine being
scrapped - had a 15HP electric motor attached - big beast. Gives 50:1
reduction.

Overall idea is that if had small petrol/gasoline (or diesel) engine
attached, would be useful tool.

Anyone have ideas about how to make the capstan barrel with its waist
in the middle?

Bearing arrangement for capstan?

Any ideas how to size the capstan barrel and what shape it should be -
are there "rules" or "rules of thumb" about capstan proportions?

My idea is to take some steel pipe and slice "eye" shaped slits out of
it longways evenly around the circumference then collapse the tube in
the middle until the edges of the "eye" slits touch, then weld up.


Another line of enquiry:

Calculations suggest that if you chose the right size of motor, you
could come near to but not exceed the breaking strength of your rope
by reason that the motor would stall first - for any revs / inhaul
speed. Would make this machine very easy to use if that were the case
- wouldn't need any gauges or whatever.

Here is how I calculate this

Work done = force x distance
Therefore
Power = force x velocity
(where velocity means in this case the inhaul speed)

The faster the motor is turning and the more power it is making, the
faster the inhaul rate so it's doing more work - so engine
throttle-opening is self-cancelling and with power approximately
proportional to revs, you end up with a capstan which will always pull
the rope to the same maximum force at any revs be it slow or fast???

This is theoretical - and real experience say how these machines
really behave?

By these calculations, where the capstan is about 125mm (5inch) dia at
the waist, would I be about right in my estimation that a 6.5HP motor
should never be able to break a 12mm (1/2inch) polypropylene rope
which is in good condition?

Thanks in advance

Richard Smith


You've omitted some key parameters:

capstan speed when motor is running at rated speed and power
breaking strength of rope
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Default Capstan project

Richard Smith fired this volley in
:

(setf *WARN-ON-FLOATING-POINT-CONTAGION* NIL)


It's been SED that a Unix accent is acceptable, but people with a LISP
sound weird!

LLoyd
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Default Capstan project

"Wild_Bill" writes:

Hellifiknow.. I'm just reading here.. never had a craft that needed a
capstan, and not making recommendations.


You poor soul - you don't know what you're missing out on!

It's all there for you - jokes about the real reason you do this
stuff, bets that you are going to get arrested for "suspicious
behaviour" before the end of the year, people stopping and looking
nervously from afar when you are setting up experimental test-rigs,
other friends who use capstans, block and tackles and know 20+ knots
and splices off by heart

Be encouraged

Rich Smith
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Default Capstan project

That's one of the issues, JR. Better not pass on loads from the
tension of the rope against the capstan to the gearbox. Got to send
those loads - got to be through some bearings - to a structural frame
in which the gearbox is mounted, subjecting itself only to torque.

Got any ideas?

Rich Smith

JR North writes:

Note that gear drives may or may not tolerate radial loads on the
output. Better find out on yours before the project gets too far along.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Richard Smith wrote:
Hello everyone
Capstans - have had a project in mind to make a capstan for some time
...



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Default Capstan project

Better not pass on loads from the
tension of the rope against the capstan to the gearbox. *Got to send
those loads - got to be through some bearings - to a structural frame
in which the gearbox is mounted, subjecting itself only to torque.


A lot of gearboxes are used to run chain drives or v-belts, which can
have a substantial sideways load, so it might be just fine? I'd check
the manufacturer spec sheets--if you can find any--before I went ahead
and designed a jackshaft, frame, and lovejoy or double-row chain
coupling. Or maybe specsheets for several other similar gearboxes
from Boston Gear, Marvin, Eaton, etc. to see what the range of typical
values is.

But if you have to design something, they're pretty straightforward.
A chain coupling would probably hold up better than a lovejoy (3-piece
flexible coupling) under the higher torque loads on the output side.
SurplusCenter.com has both styles of couplings in the states, you may
find their pages useful for figuring out what you need before you try
to find them locally.

I'll also note that most of the similar gearboxes they have listed for
sale are rated only up to 1800rpm input. With a typical 3600rpm small
gas engine, you'll either need 2:1 input pulleys, or to find one with
a reducer box (some extend the camshaft out the side case for 2:1
auxiliary output, some come with a 6:1 ring gear setup, I'm not sure
if there is an add-on 2:1 gearbox available, but all the gearbox
versions I've seen are harder to find and more expensive--if you're
scrounging, 2:1 pulleys are easier and give you more cheap/available
engines to pick from).

Hope that helps,
--Glenn Lyford
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Default Capstan project

On 2010-05-19, Richard Smith wrote:
Hello everyone

Capstans - have had a project in mind to make a capstan for some time
now. Anyone any experience or ideas on capstans?

Last summer, rescued a worm-drive gearbox from a machine being
scrapped - had a 15HP electric motor attached - big beast. Gives 50:1
reduction.

Overall idea is that if had small petrol/gasoline (or diesel) engine
attached, would be useful tool.

Anyone have ideas about how to make the capstan barrel with its waist
in the middle?


It wasn't until here in your article that I realized that you
were talking about the kind of capstan used on sailing ships instead of
a lathe turret, which is sometimes called a capstan in the UK. I think
that the distinction is between the bed turret (such as I have on my
12x24" Clausing which can be interchanged with the standard tailstock)
and the built-in turret which lives on a carriage and is coupled to the
feed rods for power.

Bearing arrangement for capstan?

Any ideas how to size the capstan barrel and what shape it should be -
are there "rules" or "rules of thumb" about capstan proportions?

My idea is to take some steel pipe and slice "eye" shaped slits out of
it longways evenly around the circumference then collapse the tube in
the middle until the edges of the "eye" slits touch, then weld up.


Well ... the ones which I have seen on old square-riggers (the
kind powered by a bunch of people marching around them pushing on bars)
were iron castings, including the ridges to help it couple to chain
instead of just rope. (It was used for raising the anchor as well as
for many other things needing a long pull with lots of tension.

Another line of enquiry:

Calculations suggest that if you chose the right size of motor, you
could come near to but not exceed the breaking strength of your rope
by reason that the motor would stall first - for any revs / inhaul
speed. Would make this machine very easy to use if that were the case
- wouldn't need any gauges or whatever.


Now, I'll stop, because the ones which I have seen were purely
muscle powered. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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Default Capstan project

Hi DoN and

DoN - that's right - of the nautical type. There is a capstan lathe
which I guess is named because the massive rotating tool-holder is
rather capstan-like - seen a derelict World-War-2 one in a thoroughly
modern (!) Fab. shop I worked in (a new Rumanian guy was speechless
with shock as he sat at his first tea-break - he'd never seen anything
like this place in Western Europe or even in Rumania).

Glenn - speed - yes - assume electric motor was 1500RPM (50Hz power
here) - so running gearbox at up to double that. Problem? Don't
know. Reduction ratio is already low enough at 50:1

I've thought of a design where the tube which becomes the capstan
barrel is welded to a disk of slightly larger dia. than the tube /
barrel, then the periphery of the disk protruding beyond the tube
becomes the rotating part of a big all-around sliding bearing. The
load is transfered to a steel plate "deck" under which the gearbox is
mounted - tried to sketch in ASCII text


|| ||
\\ //
\\ //
\\ //
// \\
// \\
// \\
|| ||
__ || X || __
| ===========X========== |
--------------------- X ----------------------
X

Then the drive shaft from the gearbox only has to keyway to the disk
(it serves that purpose as well - picking up the drive)


Another question for everyone...

Previous calculations I sketched out suggest a capstan barrel diameter
at the waist of 150mm (6"). The whole design is intended to be
matched to 12mm (1/2") rope [3-strand layed polypropylene - which
should have breaking strength of 2.2Tonnes-force].
So is 150mm (6") the right capstan waist size for 12mm (1/2") rope?

Rich Smith
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Default Capstan project

In article ,
Richard Smith wrote:

Hi DoN and

DoN - that's right - of the nautical type. There is a capstan lathe
which I guess is named because the massive rotating tool-holder is
rather capstan-like - seen a derelict World-War-2 one in a thoroughly
modern (!) Fab. shop I worked in (a new Rumanian guy was speechless
with shock as he sat at his first tea-break - he'd never seen anything
like this place in Western Europe or even in Rumania).

Glenn - speed - yes - assume electric motor was 1500RPM (50Hz power
here) - so running gearbox at up to double that. Problem? Don't
know. Reduction ratio is already low enough at 50:1

I've thought of a design where the tube which becomes the capstan
barrel is welded to a disk of slightly larger dia. than the tube /
barrel, then the periphery of the disk protruding beyond the tube
becomes the rotating part of a big all-around sliding bearing. The
load is transfered to a steel plate "deck" under which the gearbox is
mounted - tried to sketch in ASCII text


|| ||
\\ //
\\ //
\\ //
// \\
// \\
// \\
|| ||
__ || X || __
| ===========X========== |
--------------------- X ----------------------
X

Then the drive shaft from the gearbox only has to keyway to the disk
(it serves that purpose as well - picking up the drive)


Another question for everyone...

Previous calculations I sketched out suggest a capstan barrel diameter
at the waist of 150mm (6"). The whole design is intended to be
matched to 12mm (1/2") rope [3-strand layed polypropylene - which
should have breaking strength of 2.2Tonnes-force].
So is 150mm (6") the right capstan waist size for 12mm (1/2") rope?

Rich Smith


I would make sure that the capstan will not spin free and drop the load should
the capstan drive system break under load. Even if the load is of no
importance, whoever was pulling on the rope when the capstan failed could be
pulled into the capstan and mangled.

There must be many patents on better designs for marine capstans. Some research
may be helpful.

Joe Gwinn
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Default Capstan project

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Richard Smith wrote:

Hi DoN and

DoN - that's right - of the nautical type. There is a capstan lathe
which I guess is named because the massive rotating tool-holder is
rather capstan-like - seen a derelict World-War-2 one in a thoroughly
modern (!) Fab. shop I worked in (a new Rumanian guy was speechless
with shock as he sat at his first tea-break - he'd never seen anything
like this place in Western Europe or even in Rumania).

Glenn - speed - yes - assume electric motor was 1500RPM (50Hz power
here) - so running gearbox at up to double that. Problem? Don't
know. Reduction ratio is already low enough at 50:1

I've thought of a design where the tube which becomes the capstan
barrel is welded to a disk of slightly larger dia. than the tube /
barrel, then the periphery of the disk protruding beyond the tube
becomes the rotating part of a big all-around sliding bearing. The
load is transfered to a steel plate "deck" under which the gearbox is
mounted - tried to sketch in ASCII text


|| ||
\\ //
\\ //
\\ //
// \\
// \\
// \\
|| ||
__ || X || __
| ===========X========== |
--------------------- X ----------------------
X

Then the drive shaft from the gearbox only has to keyway to the disk
(it serves that purpose as well - picking up the drive)


Another question for everyone...

Previous calculations I sketched out suggest a capstan barrel diameter
at the waist of 150mm (6"). The whole design is intended to be
matched to 12mm (1/2") rope [3-strand layed polypropylene - which
should have breaking strength of 2.2Tonnes-force].
So is 150mm (6") the right capstan waist size for 12mm (1/2") rope?

Rich Smith


I would make sure that the capstan will not spin free and drop the load should
the capstan drive system break under load. Even if the load is of no
importance, whoever was pulling on the rope when the capstan failed could be
pulled into the capstan and mangled.

There must be many patents on better designs for marine capstans. Some research
may be helpful.

Joe Gwinn



On the other hand, there are times when that "drop" capability
had to be designed in.

Lowering an anchor at capstan speeds could take half the day.

When you are located where you want to be, you want that anchor
to hit bottom as soon as possible.



--

Richard Lamb




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Default Capstan project

On Fri, 21 May 2010 16:46:31 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Richard Smith wrote:

Hi DoN and

DoN - that's right - of the nautical type. There is a capstan lathe
which I guess is named because the massive rotating tool-holder is
rather capstan-like - seen a derelict World-War-2 one in a thoroughly
modern (!) Fab. shop I worked in (a new Rumanian guy was speechless
with shock as he sat at his first tea-break - he'd never seen anything
like this place in Western Europe or even in Rumania).

Glenn - speed - yes - assume electric motor was 1500RPM (50Hz power
here) - so running gearbox at up to double that. Problem? Don't
know. Reduction ratio is already low enough at 50:1

I've thought of a design where the tube which becomes the capstan
barrel is welded to a disk of slightly larger dia. than the tube /
barrel, then the periphery of the disk protruding beyond the tube
becomes the rotating part of a big all-around sliding bearing. The
load is transfered to a steel plate "deck" under which the gearbox is
mounted - tried to sketch in ASCII text


|| ||
\\ //
\\ //
\\ //
// \\
// \\
// \\
|| ||
__ || X || __
| ===========X========== |
--------------------- X ----------------------
X

Then the drive shaft from the gearbox only has to keyway to the disk
(it serves that purpose as well - picking up the drive)


Another question for everyone...

Previous calculations I sketched out suggest a capstan barrel diameter
at the waist of 150mm (6"). The whole design is intended to be
matched to 12mm (1/2") rope [3-strand layed polypropylene - which
should have breaking strength of 2.2Tonnes-force].
So is 150mm (6") the right capstan waist size for 12mm (1/2") rope?

Rich Smith


I would make sure that the capstan will not spin free and drop the load should
the capstan drive system break under load. Even if the load is of no
importance, whoever was pulling on the rope when the capstan failed could be
pulled into the capstan and mangled.

There must be many patents on better designs for marine capstans. Some research
may be helpful.

Joe Gwinn



On the other hand, there are times when that "drop" capability
had to be designed in.

Lowering an anchor at capstan speeds could take half the day.

When you are located where you want to be, you want that anchor
to hit bottom as soon as possible.



Yes, usually there is a clutch built into the hub, but more and more
the high end anchor winches are power up - power down and if there is
a clutch it is seldom used.

Of course that usually applies only to the "gypsy" side. the capstan
side is usually keyed to the shaft. If a horizontal winch :-)
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)
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