Square tubing T-joint
 

Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a
horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16").

The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the
square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be
joined.

How would you tackle this problem?

I can think of using a sharpie and an angle grinder to get it pretty close.
Is this about the best method?

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

Jon Danniken wrote:

Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a
horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16").

The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the
square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be
joined.

How would you tackle this problem?

I can think of using a sharpie and an angle grinder to get it pretty close.
Is this about the best method?

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon

We fill the gap with weld bead.

Square tubing T-joint
 

On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:36:33 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a
horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16").

The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the
square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be
joined.

How would you tackle this problem?


Use the resulting vee between the two pieces to your advantage and
fill it with weld.

--
Ned Simmons

Square tubing T-joint
 

On May 6, 1:36*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a
horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16").

The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the
square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be
joined.

How would you tackle this problem?

I can think of using a sharpie and an angle grinder to get it pretty close.
Is this about the best method?

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon

How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look?

I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a
'gap'.

Dave

Square tubing T-joint
 

One or two passes will fill the gap. No biggie

i

Square tubing T-joint
 

Dave__67 wrote:
How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look?

I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a
'gap'.

Thanks Dave. It doesn't need to be too strong (it's overdesigned as it is),
and I'm not too concerned for appearance. Form follows function, and all of
that.

Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm
planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap,
maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type?

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

On 2010-05-06, Jon Danniken wrote:
Dave__67 wrote:
How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look?

I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a
'gap'.

Thanks Dave. It doesn't need to be too strong (it's overdesigned as it is),
and I'm not too concerned for appearance. Form follows function, and all of
that.

Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm
planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap,
maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type?

I would use 7018 throughout, and 1/8 for creating those beads. You may
want to run it a bit colder so that you do not burn through the
tubing.

If you do not need extreme strength, you may have easier time with
6013.

i

Square tubing T-joint
 

Scribing a cut line on the sides of the vertical end to match the profile of
the horizontal member is easily accomplished with a scriber laying flat on
the horiz surface, and then conforming to the radiused edges, freehand.

If the scribe was just laid on the horizontal surface and followed around
the radiused edges, the radius lines will increase the diameter of the arcs
(which isn't desired in this example).

Larger gaps are scribed by using a compass or dividers, maintaining a
vertical orientation (in this example) of the two points of the tool.

Maintaining the correct orientation of the points for other applications is
similar to having the adjacent surface contacting the surface that needs to
be cut, which would be the as if the horiz tube was meeting the vert tube
(the way coping is applied in carpentry/woodworking).

--
WB
..........


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a
horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16").

The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the
square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be
joined.

How would you tackle this problem?

I can think of using a sharpie and an angle grinder to get it pretty
close. Is this about the best method?

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

On Thu, 6 May 2010 11:13:49 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

Dave__67 wrote:
How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look?

I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a
'gap'.

Thanks Dave. It doesn't need to be too strong (it's overdesigned as it is),
and I'm not too concerned for appearance. Form follows function, and all of
that.

Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm
planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap,
maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type?

Almost all square structural tubing is ASTM A500 steel and doesn't
require a low hydrogen (xx18) rod. Unless the tube is something
exotic, or there's some code requirement, I'd use 1/8" 6010 (DC) or
6011 (AC). They're both all-position rods and easier to run than 7018.
But if the 7018 is handy...

--
Ned Simmons

Square tubing T-joint
 

Wild_Bill wrote:

Scribing a cut line on the sides of the vertical end to match the profile of
the horizontal member is easily accomplished with a scriber laying flat on
the horiz surface, and then conforming to the radiused edges, freehand.

If the scribe was just laid on the horizontal surface and followed around
the radiused edges, the radius lines will increase the diameter of the arcs
(which isn't desired in this example).

Larger gaps are scribed by using a compass or dividers, maintaining a
vertical orientation (in this example) of the two points of the tool.

Maintaining the correct orientation of the points for other applications is
similar to having the adjacent surface contacting the surface that needs to
be cut, which would be the as if the horiz tube was meeting the vert tube
(the way coping is applied in carpentry/woodworking).

Er, ok. The beauty of welding metal vs. gluing wood is that the parts
don't have to fit perfectly. Reasonably close is just fine as long as
you can clamp the pieces in proper alignment while welding. The weld
filler will fill the gaps with no loss of strength, unlike glue in
woodworking.

Square tubing T-joint
 

On May 6, 2:52*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Thu, 6 May 2010 11:13:49 -0700, "Jon Danniken"

wrote:
Dave__67 wrote:
...
Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. *I'm
planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap,
maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? *Any preference for type?

Almost all square structural tubing is ASTM A500 steel and doesn't
require a low hydrogen (xx18) rod. Unless the tube is something
exotic, or there's some code requirement, I'd use 1/8" 6010 (DC) or
6011 (AC). They're both all-position rods and easier to run than 7018.
But if the 7018 is handy...
Ned Simmons

1/8" 7018 should fill it nicely, it did on the square tubing on my
sawmill and front end loader. I use 7018 for everything to stay in
practice, and to use up the oldest of my supply.

The ends of the piece on the floor will rise up if you weld the inside
corners.

jsw

Square tubing T-joint
 

Ned Simmons wrote:

Almost all square structural tubing is ASTM A500 steel and doesn't
require a low hydrogen (xx18) rod. Unless the tube is something
exotic, or there's some code requirement, I'd use 1/8" 6010 (DC) or
6011 (AC). They're both all-position rods and easier to run than 7018.
But if the 7018 is handy...

Hi Ned, I don't know if it is structural, but my local supplier refers to it
as "hot formed", if that helps.

My reasoning for choosing the 7018AC was for it's less brittle qualities.
It is most likely overkill for the application, but I figure if I can get
the hang of it after some burning some rods up in practice, it wouldn't
hurt.

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

Ignoramus22979 wrote:

I would use 7018 throughout, and 1/8 for creating those beads. You may
want to run it a bit colder so that you do not burn through the
tubing.

If you do not need extreme strength, you may have easier time with
6013.

Thanks again Iggy. I am comfortable using 3/32" 6013 on 1/8" stuff I stick
together, and I'm hoping I can get the hang of the 7018AC after some
practice.

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

Jim Wilkins wrote:
1/8" 7018 should fill it nicely, it did on the square tubing on my
sawmill and front end loader. I use 7018 for everything to stay in
practice, and to use up the oldest of my supply.

The ends of the piece on the floor will rise up if you weld the inside
corners.

Uh oh, danger Will Robinson! I was planning on doing just that, too.

Maybe I could clamp on a stiff backer piece to keep it straight? The floor
piece is 5 foot long, and the two uprights will be roughly in the middle
(all of this being 2.5" 3/6" stock).

Hmmm....

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

Since welding had already been suggested several times, I thought I'd give a
suggestion that wasn't entirely welding. I wasn't suggesting that just
welding was wrong or sloppy (steel is steel, after all).

Many of us could fill the gaps with weld and have a secure, neat looking
joint.
Some other time someone may want to fit a couple of parts together and have
the weld concealed.

--
WB
..........


"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...


Er, ok. The beauty of welding metal vs. gluing wood is that the parts
don't have to fit perfectly. Reasonably close is just fine as long as
you can clamp the pieces in proper alignment while welding. The weld
filler will fill the gaps with no loss of strength, unlike glue in
woodworking.

Square tubing T-joint
 

On 2010-05-07, Wild_Bill wrote:
Since welding had already been suggested several times, I thought I'd give a
suggestion that wasn't entirely welding. I wasn't suggesting that just
welding was wrong or sloppy (steel is steel, after all).

Many of us could fill the gaps with weld and have a secure, neat
looking joint. Some other time someone may want to fit a couple of
parts together and have the weld concealed.


Welding actually needs a certain minimum gap in order to provide
proper penetration, so that the weld achieves fusion for the entire
depth of the parts being welded. This is not to say that the bigger is
the gap, the better. But a certain gap is necessary for proper
fusion. If you are welding a flower pot stand, it is less important
than if you are making a trailer.

i

Square tubing T-joint
 

Many applications require upset of the opposite side to indicate full
penetration, complete fusion.

It's when amateurs believe a weld is applied like hot glue stick, that have
really bad results.

--
WB
..........


"Ignoramus22979" wrote in message
...

Welding actually needs a certain minimum gap in order to provide
proper penetration, so that the weld achieves fusion for the entire
depth of the parts being welded. This is not to say that the bigger is
the gap, the better. But a certain gap is necessary for proper
fusion. If you are welding a flower pot stand, it is less important
than if you are making a trailer.

i

Square tubing T-joint
 

Randy wrote:
Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement.
I'm planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill
in the gap, maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference
for type?

Jon


My choice would be 7014, easy to use, and good at filling gaps.
Thank You,
Randy

Thanks Randy. I've come across recommendations for that rod in other
threads, and I'll pick some up from my supplier to play around with.

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

On Thu, 6 May 2010 11:13:49 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

Dave__67 wrote:
How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look?

I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a
'gap'.

Thanks Dave. It doesn't need to be too strong (it's overdesigned as it is),
and I'm not too concerned for appearance. Form follows function, and all of
that.

Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm
planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap,
maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type?

Jon


My choice would be 7014, easy to use, and good at filling gaps.
Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

Square tubing T-joint
 

On May 6, 7:56*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The ends of the piece on the floor will rise up if you weld the inside
corners.
....
Maybe I could clamp on a stiff backer piece to keep it straight? *The floor
piece is 5 foot long, and the two uprights will be roughly in the middle
(all of this being 2.5" 3/6" stock).
Jon

You can't prevent the distortion if you make a good penetration weld.
The legs will spring together when you remove the clamps or spacers. I
had to stretch the ends of my sawmill's ladder frame apart with a jack
to make them parallel.

If you need the strength I'd weld gussets onto the sides.

jsw

Square tubing T-joint
 

Jim Wilkins wrote:
You can't prevent the distortion if you make a good penetration weld.
The legs will spring together when you remove the clamps or spacers. I
had to stretch the ends of my sawmill's ladder frame apart with a jack
to make them parallel.

If you need the strength I'd weld gussets onto the sides.

Thanks Jim, I guess that is one of the advantages to a parallel
construction.

Would a complementary weld on the bottom cancel out the upward distortion?
My thinking is that if the weld on top pulls the ends in that direction, a
weld with the same settings on the bottom would tend to pull the ends in the
other direction.

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

On May 7, 2:22*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
Would a complementary weld on the bottom cancel out the upward distortion?
My thinking is that if the weld on top pulls the ends in that direction, a
weld with the same settings on the bottom would tend to pull the ends in the
other direction.

Jon

Maybe, but that's above my pay grade. Could you add feet at the ends?

I don't trust my amateur welds in tension like that unless I test
them. When I made scaffolding I applied 1000 Lbs vertically and 500
diagonally to the frames, after grinding the welds smooth so cracks
would show up better.

jsw

Square tubing T-joint
 

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On May 7, 2:22 pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
Would a complementary weld on the bottom cancel out the upward
distortion? My thinking is that if the weld on top pulls the ends in
that direction, a weld with the same settings on the bottom would
tend to pull the ends in the other direction.

Jon

Maybe, but that's above my pay grade. Could you add feet at the ends?

I don't trust my amateur welds in tension like that unless I test
them. When I made scaffolding I applied 1000 Lbs vertically and 500
diagonally to the frames, after grinding the welds smooth so cracks
would show up better.

Aye, I can indeed add feet. How much do you think (ballpark) the ends
might pitch up, maybe a 1/4" or so?

Jon

Square tubing T-joint
 

On Fri, 7 May 2010 11:22:48 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
You can't prevent the distortion if you make a good penetration weld.
The legs will spring together when you remove the clamps or spacers. I
had to stretch the ends of my sawmill's ladder frame apart with a jack
to make them parallel.

If you need the strength I'd weld gussets onto the sides.

Thanks Jim, I guess that is one of the advantages to a parallel
construction.

Would a complementary weld on the bottom cancel out the upward distortion?
My thinking is that if the weld on top pulls the ends in that direction, a
weld with the same settings on the bottom would tend to pull the ends in the
other direction.

Jon

Lots of "real" fabricators have been using that method for decades. It
DOES work.
Don't even need to actually lay a bead. Just heat the back-side (and
sides on a square tube) to a bright cherry red with a big hot torch,
then quench it quickly. Heat again to almost a dull cherry and let
cool slowly to anneal if it is not mild steel.

Square tubing T-joint
 

On May 7, 8:11*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
...
Aye, I can indeed add feet. * How much do you think (ballpark) the ends
might pitch up, maybe a 1/4" or so?

Jon

If you are making two of these you could clamp them back to back with
a shim in the middle to straighten them. I've done that with 3"
channel iron salvaged from overloaded pallet racks. If 2-1/2" tube is
too stiff for your C-clamps, maybe you could chain the ends together
and jack the middle apart. Be careful, it's a crude crossbow.

jsw

Square tubing T-joint
 

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On May 7, 8:11 pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
...
Aye, I can indeed add feet. How much do you think (ballpark) the ends
might pitch up, maybe a 1/4" or so?

Jon

If you are making two of these you could clamp them back to back with
a shim in the middle to straighten them. I've done that with 3"
channel iron salvaged from overloaded pallet racks. If 2-1/2" tube is
too stiff for your C-clamps, maybe you could chain the ends together
and jack the middle apart. Be careful, it's a crude crossbow.

Ah, indeed I am, thanks Jim.

Jon

Square tubing T-joint