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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Square tubing T-joint
Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a
horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16"). The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be joined. How would you tackle this problem? I can think of using a sharpie and an angle grinder to get it pretty close. Is this about the best method? Thanks for any suggestions, Jon |
#2
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Square tubing T-joint
Jon Danniken wrote: Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16"). The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be joined. How would you tackle this problem? I can think of using a sharpie and an angle grinder to get it pretty close. Is this about the best method? Thanks for any suggestions, Jon We fill the gap with weld bead. |
#3
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Square tubing T-joint
On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:36:33 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16"). The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be joined. How would you tackle this problem? Use the resulting vee between the two pieces to your advantage and fill it with weld. -- Ned Simmons |
#4
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Square tubing T-joint
On May 6, 1:36*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16"). The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be joined. How would you tackle this problem? I can think of using a sharpie and an angle grinder to get it pretty close. Is this about the best method? Thanks for any suggestions, Jon How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look? I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a 'gap'. Dave |
#5
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Square tubing T-joint
One or two passes will fill the gap. No biggie
i |
#6
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Square tubing T-joint
Dave__67 wrote:
How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look? I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a 'gap'. Thanks Dave. It doesn't need to be too strong (it's overdesigned as it is), and I'm not too concerned for appearance. Form follows function, and all of that. Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap, maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type? Jon |
#7
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Square tubing T-joint
On 2010-05-06, Jon Danniken wrote:
Dave__67 wrote: How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look? I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a 'gap'. Thanks Dave. It doesn't need to be too strong (it's overdesigned as it is), and I'm not too concerned for appearance. Form follows function, and all of that. Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap, maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type? I would use 7018 throughout, and 1/8 for creating those beads. You may want to run it a bit colder so that you do not burn through the tubing. If you do not need extreme strength, you may have easier time with 6013. i |
#8
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Square tubing T-joint
Scribing a cut line on the sides of the vertical end to match the profile of
the horizontal member is easily accomplished with a scriber laying flat on the horiz surface, and then conforming to the radiused edges, freehand. If the scribe was just laid on the horizontal surface and followed around the radiused edges, the radius lines will increase the diameter of the arcs (which isn't desired in this example). Larger gaps are scribed by using a compass or dividers, maintaining a vertical orientation (in this example) of the two points of the tool. Maintaining the correct orientation of the points for other applications is similar to having the adjacent surface contacting the surface that needs to be cut, which would be the as if the horiz tube was meeting the vert tube (the way coping is applied in carpentry/woodworking). -- WB .......... "Jon Danniken" wrote in message ... Howdy, I am needing to join (weld) a vertical member of square tubing to a horizontal member that sits on the floor (all tubing being 2.5" x 3/16"). The problem, as you have likely come across, is that the corner of the square tubing has a radius, leaving a gap on either end of the piece to be joined. How would you tackle this problem? I can think of using a sharpie and an angle grinder to get it pretty close. Is this about the best method? Thanks for any suggestions, Jon |
#9
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Square tubing T-joint
On Thu, 6 May 2010 11:13:49 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: Dave__67 wrote: How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look? I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a 'gap'. Thanks Dave. It doesn't need to be too strong (it's overdesigned as it is), and I'm not too concerned for appearance. Form follows function, and all of that. Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap, maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type? Almost all square structural tubing is ASTM A500 steel and doesn't require a low hydrogen (xx18) rod. Unless the tube is something exotic, or there's some code requirement, I'd use 1/8" 6010 (DC) or 6011 (AC). They're both all-position rods and easier to run than 7018. But if the 7018 is handy... -- Ned Simmons |
#10
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Square tubing T-joint
Wild_Bill wrote: Scribing a cut line on the sides of the vertical end to match the profile of the horizontal member is easily accomplished with a scriber laying flat on the horiz surface, and then conforming to the radiused edges, freehand. If the scribe was just laid on the horizontal surface and followed around the radiused edges, the radius lines will increase the diameter of the arcs (which isn't desired in this example). Larger gaps are scribed by using a compass or dividers, maintaining a vertical orientation (in this example) of the two points of the tool. Maintaining the correct orientation of the points for other applications is similar to having the adjacent surface contacting the surface that needs to be cut, which would be the as if the horiz tube was meeting the vert tube (the way coping is applied in carpentry/woodworking). Er, ok. The beauty of welding metal vs. gluing wood is that the parts don't have to fit perfectly. Reasonably close is just fine as long as you can clamp the pieces in proper alignment while welding. The weld filler will fill the gaps with no loss of strength, unlike glue in woodworking. |
#11
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Square tubing T-joint
On May 6, 2:52*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Thu, 6 May 2010 11:13:49 -0700, "Jon Danniken" wrote: Dave__67 wrote: ... Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. *I'm planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap, maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? *Any preference for type? Almost all square structural tubing is ASTM A500 steel and doesn't require a low hydrogen (xx18) rod. Unless the tube is something exotic, or there's some code requirement, I'd use 1/8" 6010 (DC) or 6011 (AC). They're both all-position rods and easier to run than 7018. But if the 7018 is handy... Ned Simmons 1/8" 7018 should fill it nicely, it did on the square tubing on my sawmill and front end loader. I use 7018 for everything to stay in practice, and to use up the oldest of my supply. The ends of the piece on the floor will rise up if you weld the inside corners. jsw |
#12
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Square tubing T-joint
Ned Simmons wrote:
Almost all square structural tubing is ASTM A500 steel and doesn't require a low hydrogen (xx18) rod. Unless the tube is something exotic, or there's some code requirement, I'd use 1/8" 6010 (DC) or 6011 (AC). They're both all-position rods and easier to run than 7018. But if the 7018 is handy... Hi Ned, I don't know if it is structural, but my local supplier refers to it as "hot formed", if that helps. My reasoning for choosing the 7018AC was for it's less brittle qualities. It is most likely overkill for the application, but I figure if I can get the hang of it after some burning some rods up in practice, it wouldn't hurt. Jon |
#13
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Square tubing T-joint
Ignoramus22979 wrote:
I would use 7018 throughout, and 1/8 for creating those beads. You may want to run it a bit colder so that you do not burn through the tubing. If you do not need extreme strength, you may have easier time with 6013. Thanks again Iggy. I am comfortable using 3/32" 6013 on 1/8" stuff I stick together, and I'm hoping I can get the hang of the 7018AC after some practice. Jon |
#14
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Square tubing T-joint
Jim Wilkins wrote:
1/8" 7018 should fill it nicely, it did on the square tubing on my sawmill and front end loader. I use 7018 for everything to stay in practice, and to use up the oldest of my supply. The ends of the piece on the floor will rise up if you weld the inside corners. Uh oh, danger Will Robinson! I was planning on doing just that, too. Maybe I could clamp on a stiff backer piece to keep it straight? The floor piece is 5 foot long, and the two uprights will be roughly in the middle (all of this being 2.5" 3/6" stock). Hmmm.... Jon |
#15
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Square tubing T-joint
Since welding had already been suggested several times, I thought I'd give a
suggestion that wasn't entirely welding. I wasn't suggesting that just welding was wrong or sloppy (steel is steel, after all). Many of us could fill the gaps with weld and have a secure, neat looking joint. Some other time someone may want to fit a couple of parts together and have the weld concealed. -- WB .......... "Pete C." wrote in message ster.com... Er, ok. The beauty of welding metal vs. gluing wood is that the parts don't have to fit perfectly. Reasonably close is just fine as long as you can clamp the pieces in proper alignment while welding. The weld filler will fill the gaps with no loss of strength, unlike glue in woodworking. |
#16
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Square tubing T-joint
On 2010-05-07, Wild_Bill wrote:
Since welding had already been suggested several times, I thought I'd give a suggestion that wasn't entirely welding. I wasn't suggesting that just welding was wrong or sloppy (steel is steel, after all). Many of us could fill the gaps with weld and have a secure, neat looking joint. Some other time someone may want to fit a couple of parts together and have the weld concealed. Welding actually needs a certain minimum gap in order to provide proper penetration, so that the weld achieves fusion for the entire depth of the parts being welded. This is not to say that the bigger is the gap, the better. But a certain gap is necessary for proper fusion. If you are welding a flower pot stand, it is less important than if you are making a trailer. i |
#17
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Square tubing T-joint
Many applications require upset of the opposite side to indicate full
penetration, complete fusion. It's when amateurs believe a weld is applied like hot glue stick, that have really bad results. -- WB .......... "Ignoramus22979" wrote in message ... Welding actually needs a certain minimum gap in order to provide proper penetration, so that the weld achieves fusion for the entire depth of the parts being welded. This is not to say that the bigger is the gap, the better. But a certain gap is necessary for proper fusion. If you are welding a flower pot stand, it is less important than if you are making a trailer. i |
#18
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Square tubing T-joint
Randy wrote:
Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap, maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type? Jon My choice would be 7014, easy to use, and good at filling gaps. Thank You, Randy Thanks Randy. I've come across recommendations for that rod in other threads, and I'll pick some up from my supplier to play around with. Jon |
#19
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Square tubing T-joint
On Thu, 6 May 2010 11:13:49 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: Dave__67 wrote: How strong does it need to be, how clean does it need to look? I can think of 3 ways at least to join the two without leaving a 'gap'. Thanks Dave. It doesn't need to be too strong (it's overdesigned as it is), and I'm not too concerned for appearance. Form follows function, and all of that. Pete, Ned, and Iggy, thanks guys, you all seem to be in agreement. I'm planning on using 1/8" 7018AC for all of the welds, but to fill in the gap, maybe I should use a 3/32" electrode? Any preference for type? Jon My choice would be 7014, easy to use, and good at filling gaps. Thank You, Randy Remove 333 from email address to reply. |
#20
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Square tubing T-joint
On May 6, 7:56*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: Jim Wilkins wrote: ... The ends of the piece on the floor will rise up if you weld the inside corners. .... Maybe I could clamp on a stiff backer piece to keep it straight? *The floor piece is 5 foot long, and the two uprights will be roughly in the middle (all of this being 2.5" 3/6" stock). Jon You can't prevent the distortion if you make a good penetration weld. The legs will spring together when you remove the clamps or spacers. I had to stretch the ends of my sawmill's ladder frame apart with a jack to make them parallel. If you need the strength I'd weld gussets onto the sides. jsw |
#21
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Square tubing T-joint
Jim Wilkins wrote:
You can't prevent the distortion if you make a good penetration weld. The legs will spring together when you remove the clamps or spacers. I had to stretch the ends of my sawmill's ladder frame apart with a jack to make them parallel. If you need the strength I'd weld gussets onto the sides. Thanks Jim, I guess that is one of the advantages to a parallel construction. Would a complementary weld on the bottom cancel out the upward distortion? My thinking is that if the weld on top pulls the ends in that direction, a weld with the same settings on the bottom would tend to pull the ends in the other direction. Jon |
#22
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Square tubing T-joint
On May 7, 2:22*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: Jim Wilkins wrote: ... Would a complementary weld on the bottom cancel out the upward distortion? My thinking is that if the weld on top pulls the ends in that direction, a weld with the same settings on the bottom would tend to pull the ends in the other direction. Jon Maybe, but that's above my pay grade. Could you add feet at the ends? I don't trust my amateur welds in tension like that unless I test them. When I made scaffolding I applied 1000 Lbs vertically and 500 diagonally to the frames, after grinding the welds smooth so cracks would show up better. jsw |
#23
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Square tubing T-joint
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On May 7, 2:22 pm, "Jon Danniken" wrote: Jim Wilkins wrote: ... Would a complementary weld on the bottom cancel out the upward distortion? My thinking is that if the weld on top pulls the ends in that direction, a weld with the same settings on the bottom would tend to pull the ends in the other direction. Jon Maybe, but that's above my pay grade. Could you add feet at the ends? I don't trust my amateur welds in tension like that unless I test them. When I made scaffolding I applied 1000 Lbs vertically and 500 diagonally to the frames, after grinding the welds smooth so cracks would show up better. Aye, I can indeed add feet. How much do you think (ballpark) the ends might pitch up, maybe a 1/4" or so? Jon |
#24
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Square tubing T-joint
On Fri, 7 May 2010 11:22:48 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: Jim Wilkins wrote: You can't prevent the distortion if you make a good penetration weld. The legs will spring together when you remove the clamps or spacers. I had to stretch the ends of my sawmill's ladder frame apart with a jack to make them parallel. If you need the strength I'd weld gussets onto the sides. Thanks Jim, I guess that is one of the advantages to a parallel construction. Would a complementary weld on the bottom cancel out the upward distortion? My thinking is that if the weld on top pulls the ends in that direction, a weld with the same settings on the bottom would tend to pull the ends in the other direction. Jon Lots of "real" fabricators have been using that method for decades. It DOES work. Don't even need to actually lay a bead. Just heat the back-side (and sides on a square tube) to a bright cherry red with a big hot torch, then quench it quickly. Heat again to almost a dull cherry and let cool slowly to anneal if it is not mild steel. |
#25
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Square tubing T-joint
On May 7, 8:11*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: ... Aye, I can indeed add feet. * How much do you think (ballpark) the ends might pitch up, maybe a 1/4" or so? Jon If you are making two of these you could clamp them back to back with a shim in the middle to straighten them. I've done that with 3" channel iron salvaged from overloaded pallet racks. If 2-1/2" tube is too stiff for your C-clamps, maybe you could chain the ends together and jack the middle apart. Be careful, it's a crude crossbow. jsw |
#26
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Square tubing T-joint
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On May 7, 8:11 pm, "Jon Danniken" wrote: ... Aye, I can indeed add feet. How much do you think (ballpark) the ends might pitch up, maybe a 1/4" or so? Jon If you are making two of these you could clamp them back to back with a shim in the middle to straighten them. I've done that with 3" channel iron salvaged from overloaded pallet racks. If 2-1/2" tube is too stiff for your C-clamps, maybe you could chain the ends together and jack the middle apart. Be careful, it's a crude crossbow. Ah, indeed I am, thanks Jim. Jon |
#27
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Square tubing T-joint
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