As I understand things, there is a blowout preventer on the sea bottom.
How does that device work? Is the presence of 5000 feet of well
casing sticking out of the preventer and crumpled all over the floor of
the gulf capable of keeping the pressures and flows regulated enough
that the BOP thinks everything is OK?

What would be the method of converting the floating drill rig activities
into some kind of permanent production facility?

Stuart Wheaton wrote:
As I understand things, there is a blowout preventer on the sea
bottom. How does that device work?

http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com...age.cfm?ID=300


--
John R. Carroll

John R. Carroll wrote:
Stuart Wheaton wrote:
As I understand things, there is a blowout preventer on the sea
bottom. How does that device work?

http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com...age.cfm?ID=300



Yeah, I've found pictures. I was wondering how it works. Is it
supposed to operate off water pressure? Or by diverting the pressure in
the well bore... What actually makes the rams push in and seal the
well bore?

Stuart Wheaton wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
Stuart Wheaton wrote:
As I understand things, there is a blowout preventer on the sea
bottom. How does that device work?

http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com...age.cfm?ID=300



Yeah, I've found pictures. I was wondering how it works. Is it
supposed to operate off water pressure? Or by diverting the pressure
in the well bore... What actually makes the rams push in and seal
the well bore?

Hydraulic Rams.


--
John R. Carroll

Stuart Wheaton wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
Stuart Wheaton wrote:
As I understand things, there is a blowout preventer on the sea
bottom. How does that device work?

http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com...age.cfm?ID=300



Yeah, I've found pictures. I was wondering how it works. Is it
supposed to operate off water pressure? Or by diverting the pressure
in the well bore... What actually makes the rams push in and seal
the well bore?


http://www.blowout-preventers.com/


--
John R. Carroll

Ok - here goes some of what I know.

I Think that was a drill rig - floating but had anchors into the bottom!

It might have more than one drill stem working. Likely only one.

They were talking about underwater robotics turning off the flow from T's.

A T is normally put on post drilling. Preventer are for drilling.

So it would sound as if drilling was completed and the hole was being
changed over from drilling to production. T's hook up to pipes
the pipes run to a production rig. Think umbrella - ribs are pipes to
the production rig in the middle. A larger pipeline is routed to
the mainland from the production rig.

Underwater T's are used like faucet knobs. Turn on this or off that.
Companies are in business to put on and others to play with them.

It sounds like a coupling that was used blew or a T itself blew.

That deep, you have to have robots to look and see and to do anything.
They don't sit on the bottom and are brought out from the mainland.

Not being an insider (I have friends in the business and such) I don't
have any first hand on this. It might be the pressure was far in
excess of what was expected at that site. The T might have burst.
If so - then another has to be brought out and sent down by robot...

What I want to know is why the Coast Guard waited around and did so
little - and why did it take a 1 hour until disaster - to do an all out...

The cargo planes dropping solvents - where are they - why not burns -
why not containment or more of it... Something stinks on this -

I suspect the far left let this go proving to the press that off shore
wells can't be put near Santa Barbara or off the East coast or Florida.

This long delay speaks volumes!

Martin


Stuart Wheaton wrote:

As I understand things, there is a blowout preventer on the sea bottom.
How does that device work? Is the presence of 5000 feet of well
casing sticking out of the preventer and crumpled all over the floor of
the gulf capable of keeping the pressures and flows regulated enough
that the BOP thinks everything is OK?

What would be the method of converting the floating drill rig activities
into some kind of permanent production facility?

On Apr 30, 9:21*pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
Ok - here goes some of what I know.

I Think that was a drill rig - floating but had anchors into the bottom!-CORRECT, A SEMI-SUBMERSIBLE RIG, THAT WAS FLOATED TO THE SITE, THEN HAD IT'S BALLAST TANKS FILLED WITH WATER TO LOWER IT IN THE WATER. eIGHT ANCHORS AND EIGHT THRUSTERS HELD IT IN THE DESIRED LOCATION USING GPS

It might have more than one drill stem working. *Likely only one.

They were talking about underwater robotics turning off the flow from T's ROVS ARE CAPABLE OF OPERATING THE CONTROLS FOR THE BOP LOCALLY. tHEY MAY EVEN BE ABLE TO HOOK UP HYDRAULIC LINES FROM A NEW HYDRAULIC ACCUMILATOR TO OPERATE THE BOP SHOULD THE LINES FROM THE RIG BE DAMAGED

A T is normally put on post drilling. *Preventer are for drilling.CORRECT. tHIS RIG WAS FINISHED DRILLING AND WAS IN THE PROCESS OF CEMENTING THE WELL IN PREP TO A PRODUCING WELL

So it would sound as if drilling was completed and the hole was being
changed over from drilling to production. *T's hook up to pipes
the pipes run to a production rig. *Think umbrella - ribs are pipes to
the production rig in the middle. *A larger pipeline is routed to
the mainland from the production rig.

Underwater T's are used like faucet knobs. *Turn on this or off that.
Companies are in business to put on and others to play with them.

It sounds like a coupling that was used blew or a T itself blew.

That deep, you have to have robots to look and see and to do anything.
They don't sit on the bottom and are brought out from the mainland.

Not being an insider (I have friends in the business and such) I don't
have any first hand on this. *It might be the pressure was far in
excess of what was expected at that site. *The T might have burst.
If so - then another has to be brought out and sent down by robot...

What I want to know is why the Coast Guard waited around and did so
little - and why did it take a 1 hour until disaster - to do an all out....

The cargo planes dropping solvents - where are they - why not burns -
why not containment or more of it... * Something stinks on this -

I suspect the far left let this go proving to the press that off shore
wells can't be put near Santa Barbara or off the East coast or Florida.

This long delay speaks volumes!

Martin

BOPS ARE DESIGNED TO EITHER SEAL AROUND THE DRILL PIPE TO CLOSE THE
ANNULUS OR TO PINCH THE DRILLPIPE CLOSED AND SEVER THE PIPE ABOVE THE
RAM. THEY ARE POWERED BY HIGH PRESSURE HYDRAULIC SYSTEM WHICH MAY BE
LOCATED ON THE RIG OR ON THE BOP RACK AT THE SEA FLOOR. LOOKS LIKE,
FOR SOME REASON, THESE BOP RAMS DID NOT SEAL. THEY HAVE RUBBER
ELEMENTS THAT WILL QUICKLY BE EAT OUT IF ANY FLOW IS ALLOWED THROUGH
THEM. ONCE EATEN OUT, YOU'RE SCREWED. PINCHING OFF THE DRILLPIPE IS
LAST RESORT. ONCE THE RIG EXPLODED THERE MAY HAVE BEEN NO WAY TO
OPERATE THE BOP FROM ANYWHERE BUT THE SEAFLOOR. IT IS UNLIKELY ANYONE
WILL KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED UNTIL THEY ARE ABLE TO BRING THE BOP
TO THE SURFACE. UNTIL THEN EVERYTHING IS SPECULATION

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS BUT THAT WAS THE EASIEST WAY FOR ME TO ADD TO
MARTIN'S POST

Gerry wrote:
On Apr 30, 9:21 pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
Ok - here goes some of what I know.

I Think that was a drill rig - floating but had anchors into the
bottom!-CORRECT, A SEMI-SUBMERSIBLE RIG, THAT WAS FLOATED TO THE
SITE, THEN HAD IT'S BALLAST TANKS FILLED WITH WATER TO LOWER IT IN
THE WATER. eIGHT ANCHORS AND EIGHT THRUSTERS HELD IT IN THE DESIRED
LOCATION USING GPS

It might have more than one drill stem working. Likely only one.

They were talking about underwater robotics turning off the flow
from T's ROVS ARE CAPABLE OF OPERATING THE CONTROLS FOR THE BOP
LOCALLY. tHEY MAY EVEN BE ABLE TO HOOK UP HYDRAULIC LINES FROM A NEW
HYDRAULIC ACCUMILATOR TO OPERATE THE BOP SHOULD THE LINES FROM THE
RIG BE DAMAGED

A T is normally put on post drilling. Preventer are for
drilling.CORRECT. tHIS RIG WAS FINISHED DRILLING AND WAS IN THE
PROCESS OF CEMENTING THE WELL IN PREP TO A PRODUCING WELL

So it would sound as if drilling was completed and the hole was being
changed over from drilling to production. T's hook up to pipes
the pipes run to a production rig. Think umbrella - ribs are pipes to
the production rig in the middle. A larger pipeline is routed to
the mainland from the production rig.

Underwater T's are used like faucet knobs. Turn on this or off that.
Companies are in business to put on and others to play with them.

It sounds like a coupling that was used blew or a T itself blew.

That deep, you have to have robots to look and see and to do
anything.
They don't sit on the bottom and are brought out from the mainland.

Not being an insider (I have friends in the business and such) I
don't
have any first hand on this. It might be the pressure was far in
excess of what was expected at that site. The T might have burst.
If so - then another has to be brought out and sent down by robot...

What I want to know is why the Coast Guard waited around and did so
little - and why did it take a 1 hour until disaster - to do an all
out...

The cargo planes dropping solvents - where are they - why not burns -
why not containment or more of it... Something stinks on this -

I suspect the far left let this go proving to the press that off
shore
wells can't be put near Santa Barbara or off the East coast or
Florida.

This long delay speaks volumes!

Martin

BOPS ARE DESIGNED TO EITHER SEAL AROUND THE DRILL PIPE TO CLOSE THE
ANNULUS OR TO PINCH THE DRILLPIPE CLOSED AND SEVER THE PIPE ABOVE THE
RAM. THEY ARE POWERED BY HIGH PRESSURE HYDRAULIC SYSTEM WHICH MAY BE
LOCATED ON THE RIG OR ON THE BOP RACK AT THE SEA FLOOR. LOOKS LIKE,
FOR SOME REASON, THESE BOP RAMS DID NOT SEAL. THEY HAVE RUBBER
ELEMENTS THAT WILL QUICKLY BE EAT OUT IF ANY FLOW IS ALLOWED THROUGH
THEM. ONCE EATEN OUT, YOU'RE SCREWED. PINCHING OFF THE DRILLPIPE IS
LAST RESORT. ONCE THE RIG EXPLODED THERE MAY HAVE BEEN NO WAY TO
OPERATE THE BOP FROM ANYWHERE BUT THE SEAFLOOR. IT IS UNLIKELY ANYONE
WILL KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED UNTIL THEY ARE ABLE TO BRING THE BOP
TO THE SURFACE. UNTIL THEN EVERYTHING IS SPECULATION

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS BUT THAT WAS THE EASIEST WAY FOR ME TO ADD TO
MARTIN'S POST

Add this.
BP says they had tested the BOP stack 10 days before the accident.


--
John R. Carroll

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...



The cargo planes dropping solvents - where are they - why not burns -
why not containment or more of it... Something stinks on this -

I suspect the far left let this go proving to the press that off shore
wells can't be put near Santa Barbara or off the East coast or Florida.

This long delay speaks volumes!

Martin




that was my thought after i saw cliff's links to youtube parodies of palin,
the far left planted a operative on the rig and sabotaged it to embarrass
the "drill baby drill" crowd. kinda like how bush and cheney coordinated
events of 9/11. ( :-) )

b.w.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 21:28:23 -0400, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:


As I understand things, there is a blowout preventer on the sea bottom.
How does that device work? Is the presence of 5000 feet of well
casing sticking out of the preventer and crumpled all over the floor of
the gulf capable of keeping the pressures and flows regulated enough
that the BOP thinks everything is OK?

What would be the method of converting the floating drill rig activities
into some kind of permanent production facility?

There is normally a "BOP" (Blow Out Protector) stack. Depending on
where the drilling program is there would normally be at least two
hydraulic operated rams, one to close an open hole and a second to
shear the drill pipe and close the hole with pipe in the hole. There
is sometimes a third ram that closes around the drill pipe. If casing
has been run there will be a "bag" what closes using an annular donut
type diaphragm to close the hole.

The report I read, written shortly after the rig sank, said that they
had just completed cementing (pumping cement down the hole to seal a
casing string in place) and were moving off the hole and would return
to the hole at a later time. This would mean that the BOP stack was in
place at the well head (at the sea bed) and there was an indication at
the surface that the rams were closed.

John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge (contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on trees
and repair bottom stuff.

Martin

Gerry wrote:
On Apr 30, 9:21 pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
Ok - here goes some of what I know.

I Think that was a drill rig - floating but had anchors into the bottom!-CORRECT, A SEMI-SUBMERSIBLE RIG, THAT WAS FLOATED TO THE SITE, THEN HAD IT'S BALLAST TANKS FILLED WITH WATER TO LOWER IT IN THE WATER. eIGHT ANCHORS AND EIGHT THRUSTERS HELD IT IN THE DESIRED LOCATION USING GPS

It might have more than one drill stem working. Likely only one.

They were talking about underwater robotics turning off the flow from T's ROVS ARE CAPABLE OF OPERATING THE CONTROLS FOR THE BOP LOCALLY. tHEY MAY EVEN BE ABLE TO HOOK UP HYDRAULIC LINES FROM A NEW HYDRAULIC ACCUMILATOR TO OPERATE THE BOP SHOULD THE LINES FROM THE RIG BE DAMAGED

A T is normally put on post drilling. Preventer are for drilling.CORRECT. tHIS RIG WAS FINISHED DRILLING AND WAS IN THE PROCESS OF CEMENTING THE WELL IN PREP TO A PRODUCING WELL

So it would sound as if drilling was completed and the hole was being
changed over from drilling to production. T's hook up to pipes
the pipes run to a production rig. Think umbrella - ribs are pipes to
the production rig in the middle. A larger pipeline is routed to
the mainland from the production rig.

Underwater T's are used like faucet knobs. Turn on this or off that.
Companies are in business to put on and others to play with them.

It sounds like a coupling that was used blew or a T itself blew.

That deep, you have to have robots to look and see and to do anything.
They don't sit on the bottom and are brought out from the mainland.

Not being an insider (I have friends in the business and such) I don't
have any first hand on this. It might be the pressure was far in
excess of what was expected at that site. The T might have burst.
If so - then another has to be brought out and sent down by robot...

What I want to know is why the Coast Guard waited around and did so
little - and why did it take a 1 hour until disaster - to do an all out...

The cargo planes dropping solvents - where are they - why not burns -
why not containment or more of it... Something stinks on this -

I suspect the far left let this go proving to the press that off shore
wells can't be put near Santa Barbara or off the East coast or Florida.

This long delay speaks volumes!

Martin

BOPS ARE DESIGNED TO EITHER SEAL AROUND THE DRILL PIPE TO CLOSE THE
ANNULUS OR TO PINCH THE DRILLPIPE CLOSED AND SEVER THE PIPE ABOVE THE
RAM. THEY ARE POWERED BY HIGH PRESSURE HYDRAULIC SYSTEM WHICH MAY BE
LOCATED ON THE RIG OR ON THE BOP RACK AT THE SEA FLOOR. LOOKS LIKE,
FOR SOME REASON, THESE BOP RAMS DID NOT SEAL. THEY HAVE RUBBER
ELEMENTS THAT WILL QUICKLY BE EAT OUT IF ANY FLOW IS ALLOWED THROUGH
THEM. ONCE EATEN OUT, YOU'RE SCREWED. PINCHING OFF THE DRILLPIPE IS
LAST RESORT. ONCE THE RIG EXPLODED THERE MAY HAVE BEEN NO WAY TO
OPERATE THE BOP FROM ANYWHERE BUT THE SEAFLOOR. IT IS UNLIKELY ANYONE
WILL KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED UNTIL THEY ARE ABLE TO BRING THE BOP
TO THE SURFACE. UNTIL THEN EVERYTHING IS SPECULATION

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS BUT THAT WAS THE EASIEST WAY FOR ME TO ADD TO
MARTIN'S POST

On Sat, 01 May 2010 22:11:12 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge (contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.

I have even seen claims on the internet this explosion was
caused by environmentalist saboteurs.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...age1052802/pg1

for some additional info see
http://www.upstreamonline.com/live/article213497.ece
http://drillingclub.proboards.com/in...&thread= 4471


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Sat, 01 May 2010 23:50:37 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge (contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.


Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.

It would be like having a motor vehicle without a reverse gear.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 May 2010 23:50:37 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.


Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.

It would be like having a motor vehicle without a reverse gear.

Gunner



I agree with you Gunner. Not even the little two bit gas rigs in southern
Alberta back in the seventies were that stupid. They used to get up to all
sorts of shifty tricks to make a buck as the oil companies screwed the last
cent out of every contract. They often would start drilling ahead as soon as
they had set cement. As the holes were often only a couple of thousand feet
deep, they would be into the Milk River sand before the cement had set up
properly. They have some pretty high pressure pockets in that formation,and
every once in a while somebody would run out of luck and hit one before the
surface pipe was well set in. It would blow the drill string,surface pipe
and BOP's out through the monkey board usually striking a spark and setting
the whole bloody lot alight. It would then burn for days untill they got
another rig in to drill a relief hole and kill it all.
Because it was on land,and in south central nowhere, it didn't get much
publicity. The rig hands generally saw it coming and watched it all from the
next township. The sky was lit up most of the time from flares anyway so no
one paid much attention to another fire.

By the late sixties, the companies got a lot smater and had there guys
wathing things and the practices improved a lot

On Sun, 2 May 2010 18:37:29 +1000, "Grumpy"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 01 May 2010 23:50:37 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.


Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.

It would be like having a motor vehicle without a reverse gear.

Gunner



I agree with you Gunner. Not even the little two bit gas rigs in southern
Alberta back in the seventies were that stupid. They used to get up to all
sorts of shifty tricks to make a buck as the oil companies screwed the last
cent out of every contract. They often would start drilling ahead as soon as
they had set cement. As the holes were often only a couple of thousand feet
deep, they would be into the Milk River sand before the cement had set up
properly. They have some pretty high pressure pockets in that formation,and
every once in a while somebody would run out of luck and hit one before the
surface pipe was well set in. It would blow the drill string,surface pipe
and BOP's out through the monkey board usually striking a spark and setting
the whole bloody lot alight. It would then burn for days untill they got
another rig in to drill a relief hole and kill it all.
Because it was on land,and in south central nowhere, it didn't get much
publicity. The rig hands generally saw it coming and watched it all from the
next township. The sky was lit up most of the time from flares anyway so no
one paid much attention to another fire.

By the late sixties, the companies got a lot smater and had there guys
wathing things and the practices improved a lot

Indeed. Hell..when I was working on bull**** rigs, we used BOPs on gas
laden wells when we pulled pump strings..this back in the late 70s. The
oil companies got a hell of a lot smarter..cash talks really well in the
patch and ****ing money away on putting out a well fire eats way way
into the bottom line, so they got religion. BOP rental was very very
cheap insurance and then it became law.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Sat, 01 May 2010 22:37:30 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
snip
Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.
snip

In a rational world this would indeed appear to be the case,
however there were several layers of
contractors/subcontractors, etc. involved, and some of the
individual management may have been involved in some sort of
kickback/false invoice scheme to bill for a BOP [some cost
estimates are 500k$US for basic device, higher for deep sea
in-place (c. 5,000 feet)] and several hundred thousand $
more each for back-up and redundant/emergency cutoff valves,
which were never installed, or were salvage repaints.

If there is a buck to be skimmed, there will be people
standing in line to do it. The same thing holds true for
coalmines. Far more expensive to have an explosion or roof
collapse than to provide adequate ventilation or roof
supports. Another example is the use of sub-standard or
counterfeit aircraft components.

FWIW -- Pres. Obama should issue a directive ASAP to the DoJ
to treat this as a crime scene with 11 likely counts of
negligent homicide, possibly morphing into 11 counts of
felony murder, if it can be shown the deaths occurred as the
result of or during the commission of a crime. Also issue a
directive to Homeland Security to treat this as a national
security breach until determined otherwise. From a strictly
economic standpoint, this has the potential to be far more
costly and long-term that 9-11.

All corporations involved should be prevented from
transferring funds and/or any records outside US
jurisdiction, destroying any records [under threat of
"obstruction of justice" charges], and company executives
(and other employees that might be involved or have
knowledge) should be prevented from leaving US jurisdiction
without permission.

All materials recovered, especially the BOP and emergency
cutoff valves, should be impounded and kept under guard at a
federal facility pending complete inspection/evaluation.

The NTSB, because of their expertise in accident
reconstruction is suggested as the initial lead
investigative agency with the closest and continuous
cooperation/liaison with OSHA, BATF, FBI, IRS [follow the
money], and other DoJ agencies including the U.S. Attorneys
Office for the regions involved.

--
-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 May 2010 18:37:29 +1000, "Grumpy"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 01 May 2010 23:50:37 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.


Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.

It would be like having a motor vehicle without a reverse gear.

Gunner



I agree with you Gunner. Not even the little two bit gas rigs in southern
Alberta back in the seventies were that stupid. They used to get up to all
sorts of shifty tricks to make a buck as the oil companies screwed the
last
cent out of every contract. They often would start drilling ahead as soon
as
they had set cement. As the holes were often only a couple of thousand
feet
deep, they would be into the Milk River sand before the cement had set up
properly. They have some pretty high pressure pockets in that
formation,and
every once in a while somebody would run out of luck and hit one before
the
surface pipe was well set in. It would blow the drill string,surface pipe
and BOP's out through the monkey board usually striking a spark and
setting
the whole bloody lot alight. It would then burn for days untill they got
another rig in to drill a relief hole and kill it all.
Because it was on land,and in south central nowhere, it didn't get much
publicity. The rig hands generally saw it coming and watched it all from
the
next township. The sky was lit up most of the time from flares anyway so
no
one paid much attention to another fire.

By the late sixties, the companies got a lot smater and had there guys
wathing things and the practices improved a lot

Indeed. Hell..when I was working on bull**** rigs, we used BOPs on gas
laden wells when we pulled pump strings..this back in the late 70s. The
oil companies got a hell of a lot smarter..cash talks really well in the
patch and ****ing money away on putting out a well fire eats way way
into the bottom line, so they got religion. BOP rental was very very
cheap insurance and then it became law.

Gunner



All the little rigs had BOP's as part of their equipment and didn't rent
them.

I did a jon near Red Deer, Alberta once on a really nasty well. It was a
great earner, but the sour gas ( H2S) was high as was the shut in pressure.
The company didn't want to kill the well,but needed to change the production
tubing. We set a plug at the bottom of the production string and a snubber
set was installed at the bottom of the workover rig as the pressure would
have blown the tubing string into orbit. Every length was snubbed out of the
hole and any gas was vented and burned to get rid if the sour gas. It must
have cost a fortune just to change the production tubing!

On Sun, 02 May 2010 18:13:13 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2010 22:37:30 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
snip
Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.
snip

In a rational world this would indeed appear to be the case,
however there were several layers of
contractors/subcontractors, etc. involved, and some of the
individual management may have been involved in some sort of
kickback/false invoice scheme to bill for a BOP [some cost
estimates are 500k$US for basic device, higher for deep sea
in-place (c. 5,000 feet)] and several hundred thousand $
more each for back-up and redundant/emergency cutoff valves,
which were never installed, or were salvage repaints.

If there is a buck to be skimmed, there will be people
standing in line to do it. The same thing holds true for
coalmines. Far more expensive to have an explosion or roof
collapse than to provide adequate ventilation or roof
supports. Another example is the use of sub-standard or
counterfeit aircraft components.

FWIW -- Pres. Obama should issue a directive ASAP to the DoJ
to treat this as a crime scene with 11 likely counts of
negligent homicide, possibly morphing into 11 counts of
felony murder, if it can be shown the deaths occurred as the
result of or during the commission of a crime. Also issue a
directive to Homeland Security to treat this as a national
security breach until determined otherwise. From a strictly
economic standpoint, this has the potential to be far more
costly and long-term that 9-11.

All corporations involved should be prevented from
transferring funds and/or any records outside US
jurisdiction, destroying any records [under threat of
"obstruction of justice" charges], and company executives
(and other employees that might be involved or have
knowledge) should be prevented from leaving US jurisdiction
without permission.

All materials recovered, especially the BOP and emergency
cutoff valves, should be impounded and kept under guard at a
federal facility pending complete inspection/evaluation.

The NTSB, because of their expertise in accident
reconstruction is suggested as the initial lead
investigative agency with the closest and continuous
cooperation/liaison with OSHA, BATF, FBI, IRS [follow the
money], and other DoJ agencies including the U.S. Attorneys
Office for the regions involved.

Of course, but....do you think that a rig is spudded in, without a full
and complete checkout by various agencies?

A little basic info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowout_preventer

And then the meat....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/uscgd8/4552485336/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uscgd8/4551846015/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uscgd8/4560777718/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/uscgd8/4549418892/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/uscgd8/4549418588/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uscgd8/4542967408/

Ayup...pretty much shows that they had a BOP installed.

Didnt work however.

And no..there is no such thing as a Dummy BOP



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sun, 02 May 2010 17:22:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
snip
Ayup...pretty much shows that they had a BOP installed.

Didnt work however.

And no..there is no such thing as a Dummy BOP
snip
==========
While in all large organizations you can find letters and
memos in the files on every side of every question, the
following may be of interest.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle7114087.ece
{be sure and review the reader comments}

Note that the [sub]contractors got the job because they had
the low bid. There are several ways to produce a low bid
and still make a profit, only one of which is effectiveness
and efficiency....

--

-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

I heard today from a BP rep - that the hole was experimental. New field
I suppose. So it was a single hole and not a family of pipelines and
other things.

It sounds as if they hit a dome of oil that is gas powered. The top
of the dome is high pressure gas.

In movies and such - these shoot the drill stem out the top of the derrick.

In drilling in these unknown ground fields - they see the data of exploration
and think there is oil or gas - and put a well there to see if it is true.

I have heard of times of a blow-out - land ones - that normally you stab
the stem in the BOP. It has happened that this occured when the drilling
head itself was just rising through and the two pinching units can't
work through a head leaving a hole partly closed.

One won't know until we get the final facts.

There is thought that another hole into the dome might relieve the pressure
but drilling would take weeks.

Martin

Grumpy wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 May 2010 23:50:37 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.

Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.

It would be like having a motor vehicle without a reverse gear.

Gunner



I agree with you Gunner. Not even the little two bit gas rigs in southern
Alberta back in the seventies were that stupid. They used to get up to all
sorts of shifty tricks to make a buck as the oil companies screwed the last
cent out of every contract. They often would start drilling ahead as soon as
they had set cement. As the holes were often only a couple of thousand feet
deep, they would be into the Milk River sand before the cement had set up
properly. They have some pretty high pressure pockets in that formation,and
every once in a while somebody would run out of luck and hit one before the
surface pipe was well set in. It would blow the drill string,surface pipe
and BOP's out through the monkey board usually striking a spark and setting
the whole bloody lot alight. It would then burn for days untill they got
another rig in to drill a relief hole and kill it all.
Because it was on land,and in south central nowhere, it didn't get much
publicity. The rig hands generally saw it coming and watched it all from the
next township. The sky was lit up most of the time from flares anyway so no
one paid much attention to another fire.

By the late sixties, the companies got a lot smater and had there guys
wathing things and the practices improved a lot

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on trees
and repair bottom stuff.

Martin


From what I read, it was one solitary well. Do not quote me.

For a 23,000 foot drill string, there would have been a lot of drill pipe,
collars, stabilizers, tools, jars, etc etc etc on deck. Most of the other
stuff would have made a slower descent.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

On Sun, 2 May 2010 21:44:44 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:
snip
How would one run a BOP so far down when a BOP must be hooked to hydraulic
lines at all times in order to function? I am not familiar with the deep
water drilling techniques.

Steve
======
If I understand correctly, the "normal" position of the BOP
is closed, with very considerable force, designed to shear
the normal "string" of drill pipe. The hydraulic
lines/pressure force/hold the BOP open, thus if all the junk
on the oil platform did slide off and cut the lines, the BOP
should have slammed shut. There is the possibility that the
junk falling from the capsizing oil platform crushed the
control lines trapping the pressure and holding the BOP
open, but from the somewhat ambagious media reports it
appears one of the remote submersibles managed to trip the
emergency dump valve on the hydraulic lines at the BOP, and
trip one of the emergency cutoff valves with no effect on
the flow.

Two other items that may have contributed/be contributing to
the problem:

There are several media report that the BOP was modified by
the drilling contractor, but these modifications were not
approved by or even known to the BOP manufacturer until they
say the underwater photos of the BOP.

Halliburton had just finished cementing the well about 20
hours before the blowout. Halliburton was a pioneer in the
cementing of deep sea wells, but as the depth increased over
the last few years [c. 5,000 feet] so did their problems,
indicating that their procedures/materials may have exceeded
their limits. Again according to the media, cementing is
one of the most dangerous phases of bringing a deep sea well
into production, with almost 1/2 of blowouts and other
serious blow-outs over the last few years occurring at that
time. Another factor according to several posters that
appear to know was the use by Halliburton of a new and
slightly less expensive cement formulation.

If the oil flow is indeed around the outside of the well
casing this is very critical and highly dangerous problem as
the flow will scour a larger and larger channel increasing
the flow rate, and in many cases has been known to blow the
casing and its contents [drill stem, drill, cement plug] out
of the well, and the emergency cutoff and BOP valves out of
the way.

--
-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 May 2010 23:50:37 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.


Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.

It would be like having a motor vehicle without a reverse gear.

Gunner


How would one run a BOP so far down when a BOP must be hooked to hydraulic
lines at all times in order to function? I am not familiar with the deep
water drilling techniques.

Steve

On Sun, 2 May 2010 21:44:44 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 01 May 2010 23:50:37 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.


Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.

It would be like having a motor vehicle without a reverse gear.

Gunner


How would one run a BOP so far down when a BOP must be hooked to hydraulic
lines at all times in order to function? I am not familiar with the deep
water drilling techniques.

Steve

They are set on wellhead or on top of the casing.

Hydraulic lines can be quite long.

Gunner



--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sun, 02 May 2010 23:44:02 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

If I understand correctly, the "normal" position of the BOP
is closed, with very considerable force, designed to shear
the normal "string" of drill pipe. The hydraulic
lines/pressure force/hold the BOP open,


Nope..with no pressure, they are open. Add pressure and they close.

Gunner

--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

This was apparently a deep water type. Might now work with
hydrolyic pressure. That might be bad if there was a problem
on the platform and so forth.

Martin

Steve B wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 May 2010 23:50:37 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

===========
The problem is that *NO ONE* is coming clean on what
happened. For example, was a BOP [blow out preventer] even
installed?
http://www.andrewhalcro.com/exclusiv..._out_protector

There were supposed to be other "fail safe" shut-offs, but
it is apparent these did not function either. A robotic sub
reportedly attempted to activate one of the secondary
shut-offs with no success. Is it possible that they were
unable to locate because there are none, or were "quakers"
or "dummies" installed to save money.

Ive worked in and around the oil fields for many years, and frankly I
cannot imagine in my worst moments, any oil company NOT using a BOP in
any drilling operation of this sort. Frankly..they are far far too
critical for even minor "kicks" and all manner of other uses while
drilling a well.

It would be like having a motor vehicle without a reverse gear.

Gunner


How would one run a BOP so far down when a BOP must be hooked to hydraulic
lines at all times in order to function? I am not familiar with the deep
water drilling techniques.

Steve

The pictures Gunner provided showed the bent pipe and issues -
and where the platform landed - away from the hole.

The BOP looked free and clear. I'm not sure about the stem. Two leaks
are coming from it as it lies on the bottom.

I'd think and consider it a logical idea - that a portable BOP - one that
clamps around and bolts on - could be put on the pipe as it is.

I don't know if there is such a thing since it would be almost only
use in times like this with pipes askew or normal with a blowout in
progress. Robots would have to install it due to the danger.

Martin

Steve B wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on trees
and repair bottom stuff.

Martin


From what I read, it was one solitary well. Do not quote me.

For a 23,000 foot drill string, there would have been a lot of drill pipe,
collars, stabilizers, tools, jars, etc etc etc on deck. Most of the other
stuff would have made a slower descent.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

apparently there was drill stem inside the pipe, which would explain why the
BOP couldn't crush it closed

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
The pictures Gunner provided showed the bent pipe and issues -
and where the platform landed - away from the hole.

The BOP looked free and clear. I'm not sure about the stem. Two leaks
are coming from it as it lies on the bottom.

I'd think and consider it a logical idea - that a portable BOP - one that
clamps around and bolts on - could be put on the pipe as it is.

I don't know if there is such a thing since it would be almost only
use in times like this with pipes askew or normal with a blowout in
progress. Robots would have to install it due to the danger.

Martin

Steve B wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

Martin


From what I read, it was one solitary well. Do not quote me.

For a 23,000 foot drill string, there would have been a lot of drill
pipe, collars, stabilizers, tools, jars, etc etc etc on deck. Most of
the other stuff would have made a slower descent.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult.

On Mon, 03 May 2010 22:03:57 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

The pictures Gunner provided showed the bent pipe and issues -
and where the platform landed - away from the hole.

The BOP looked free and clear. I'm not sure about the stem. Two leaks
are coming from it as it lies on the bottom.

I'd think and consider it a logical idea - that a portable BOP - one that
clamps around and bolts on - could be put on the pipe as it is.

I don't know if there is such a thing since it would be almost only
use in times like this with pipes askew or normal with a blowout in
progress. Robots would have to install it due to the danger.

Not just the danger..but the depth.



Martin

Steve B wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on trees
and repair bottom stuff.

Martin


From what I read, it was one solitary well. Do not quote me.

For a 23,000 foot drill string, there would have been a lot of drill pipe,
collars, stabilizers, tools, jars, etc etc etc on deck. Most of the other
stuff would have made a slower descent.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.



--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Mon, 3 May 2010 22:19:25 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:

apparently there was drill stem inside the pipe, which would explain why the
BOP couldn't crush it closed

BOPs crush and shear drill stem like cheap drinking straws.

Gunner


"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
The pictures Gunner provided showed the bent pipe and issues -
and where the platform landed - away from the hole.

The BOP looked free and clear. I'm not sure about the stem. Two leaks
are coming from it as it lies on the bottom.

I'd think and consider it a logical idea - that a portable BOP - one that
clamps around and bolts on - could be put on the pipe as it is.

I don't know if there is such a thing since it would be almost only
use in times like this with pipes askew or normal with a blowout in
progress. Robots would have to install it due to the danger.

Martin

Steve B wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

Martin


From what I read, it was one solitary well. Do not quote me.

For a 23,000 foot drill string, there would have been a lot of drill
pipe, collars, stabilizers, tools, jars, etc etc etc on deck. Most of
the other stuff would have made a slower descent.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult.

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

BOP's crush both pipes without problem.
The only problem I have heard of is when the cutting head is inside the BOP
the larger mass and strength inhibits the BOP closure.

It seems this isn't the case, unknown - as they were trying to yank on the
manual throw - meaning it never triggered.

Martin

Bill Noble wrote:
apparently there was drill stem inside the pipe, which would explain why
the BOP couldn't crush it closed

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
The pictures Gunner provided showed the bent pipe and issues -
and where the platform landed - away from the hole.

The BOP looked free and clear. I'm not sure about the stem. Two leaks
are coming from it as it lies on the bottom.

I'd think and consider it a logical idea - that a portable BOP - one that
clamps around and bolts on - could be put on the pipe as it is.

I don't know if there is such a thing since it would be almost only
use in times like this with pipes askew or normal with a blowout in
progress. Robots would have to install it due to the danger.

Martin

Steve B wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

Martin


From what I read, it was one solitary well. Do not quote me.

For a 23,000 foot drill string, there would have been a lot of drill
pipe, collars, stabilizers, tools, jars, etc etc etc on deck. Most
of the other stuff would have made a slower descent.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult.

I was watching the BP control room running robots from Houston.
They experimented with a cutter tool and it sliced through the
main pipe and drill stem. Oil rerouted.

What I don't understand with the 'BELL' they are putting in -

Why not cut the pipe very near the down-hole - and then drop
the bell over that trapping all of the oil.

It sounds as if they intend of dropping it at pipe end and
seal off any leaks. Seems prone for future problems.

Martin


On 5/5/2010 9:28 PM, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
BOP's crush both pipes without problem.
The only problem I have heard of is when the cutting head is inside the BOP
the larger mass and strength inhibits the BOP closure.

It seems this isn't the case, unknown - as they were trying to yank on the
manual throw - meaning it never triggered.

Martin

Bill Noble wrote:
apparently there was drill stem inside the pipe, which would explain
why the BOP couldn't crush it closed

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
The pictures Gunner provided showed the bent pipe and issues -
and where the platform landed - away from the hole.

The BOP looked free and clear. I'm not sure about the stem. Two leaks
are coming from it as it lies on the bottom.

I'd think and consider it a logical idea - that a portable BOP - one
that
clamps around and bolts on - could be put on the pipe as it is.

I don't know if there is such a thing since it would be almost only
use in times like this with pipes askew or normal with a blowout in
progress. Robots would have to install it due to the danger.

Martin

Steve B wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
What is worse on all of this - the rig burned and sank after
dumping the loose contents off decks.
We can only hope that the contents and rig slid off to the side and
didn't slice pipelines and brake well heads / trees. There might have
been several Trees under there and this was the next well.

Facts will eek out. I think I know the BP manager in charge
(contractor).
I sure don't want to call him. Another friend runs robots to put on
trees
and repair bottom stuff.

Martin


From what I read, it was one solitary well. Do not quote me.

For a 23,000 foot drill string, there would have been a lot of drill
pipe, collars, stabilizers, tools, jars, etc etc etc on deck. Most
of the other stuff would have made a slower descent.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult.

On May 3, 2:28*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 02 May 2010 23:44:02 -0500, F. George McDuffee

wrote:
If I understand correctly, the "normal" position of the BOP
is closed, with very considerable force, designed to shear
the normal "string" of drill pipe. *The hydraulic
lines/pressure force/hold the BOP open,

Nope..with no pressure, they are open. Add pressure and they close.

Gunner

If that is truly the case, then it's really a bull**** design. How
could any right-thinking person design a system to protect against a
failure at the bottom of the ocean that depends on miles of hydraulic
lines and pumps on the surface? Westinghouse had this pretty much
covered a hundred and forty years ago.

A "failsafe" system should go to the "safe" condition when something
"fails."

On Thu, 6 May 2010 19:19:33 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On May 3, 2:28*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 02 May 2010 23:44:02 -0500, F. George McDuffee

wrote:
If I understand correctly, the "normal" position of the BOP
is closed, with very considerable force, designed to shear
the normal "string" of drill pipe. *The hydraulic
lines/pressure force/hold the BOP open,

Nope..with no pressure, they are open. Add pressure and they close.

Gunner

If that is truly the case, then it's really a bull**** design. How
could any right-thinking person design a system to protect against a
failure at the bottom of the ocean that depends on miles of hydraulic
lines and pumps on the surface? Westinghouse had this pretty much
covered a hundred and forty years ago.

A "failsafe" system should go to the "safe" condition when something
"fails."
===============
This may be a case of sending a boy to do a gorilla's job...

I have not been able to track down actual specs, but from
several media articles it appears that the BOP and emergency
guillotine emergency valves used were rated to 60k PSI.
There is always some safety factor, so the valves would most
likely operate at 80k PSI, although with some leaks and a
reduced duty cycle. The apparent fact that the BOP and
other emergency valves were blown apart/off like a cheap
mailbox with an M-80, indicates a *MUCH* higher well
pressure when the "kick" occurred.

The working well pressures at these depths [c 5,000 feet sea
water, 18,000 feet well, possibly much deeper] do not seem
to be known with any accuracy, but if this is indeed above
c. 150k PSI we may not have the technology required to
control/cap. FWIW 0.44 PSI per foot of sea water X 5,000
feet = 2,200 PSI.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_d...ertical _foot


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
I was watching the BP control room running robots from Houston.
They experimented with a cutter tool and it sliced through the
main pipe and drill stem. Oil rerouted.

What I don't understand with the 'BELL' they are putting in -

Why not cut the pipe very near the down-hole - and then drop
the bell over that trapping all of the oil.

It sounds as if they intend of dropping it at pipe end and
seal off any leaks. Seems prone for future problems.

Martin


Just a wild guess, of course, but maybe they still want to harvest
that oil?

First stop the leaks, then tap in and pump it up.



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

So cut the pipe at the well head - put the bell over it and then
draw the oil from the bell.

What is so hard to think of that.

Martin

On 5/7/2010 7:04 AM, cavelamb wrote:
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
I was watching the BP control room running robots from Houston.
They experimented with a cutter tool and it sliced through the
main pipe and drill stem. Oil rerouted.

What I don't understand with the 'BELL' they are putting in -

Why not cut the pipe very near the down-hole - and then drop
the bell over that trapping all of the oil.

It sounds as if they intend of dropping it at pipe end and
seal off any leaks. Seems prone for future problems.

Martin


Just a wild guess, of course, but maybe they still want to harvest
that oil?

First stop the leaks, then tap in and pump it up.

In case you missed it.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100508/D9FIL6L00.html
May 8, 8:04 AM (ET)

By JEFF DONN AND SETH BORENSTEIN


HOUSTON (AP) - Cutoff valves like the one that failed to
stop the Gulf of Mexico oil disaster have repeatedly broken
down at other wells in the years since federal regulators
weakened testing requirements, according to an Associated
Press investigation.

These steel monsters known as blowout preventers or BOPs -
sometimes as big as a double-decker bus and weighing up to
640,000 pounds - guard the mouth of wells. They act as the
last defense to choke off unintended releases, slamming a
gushing pipe with up to 1 million pounds of force.
snip
- Accident reports from the U.S. Minerals Management
Service, a branch of the Interior Department, show that the
devices have failed or otherwise played a role in at least
14 accidents, mostly since 2005.

- Government and industry reports have raised questions
about the reliability of blowout preventers for more than a
decade. A 2003 report by Transocean, the owner of the
destroyed rig, said: "Floating drilling rig downtime due to
poor BOP reliability is a common and very costly issue
confronting all offshore drilling contractors."

- Lawsuits have fingered these valves as a factor in
previous blowouts.
snip
After the accident, BP CEO Tony Hayward said of blowout
preventers in general: "It's unprecedented for it to fail."

Yet the AP review turned up instances where preventer seals
have failed outright, obstructions have blocked them, or
valves simply weren't designed for the task. Sometimes there
were blowouts.

The control systems also have proved goof-prone. When a
worker accidentally disconnected a blowout preventer at one
rig in 2000, federal regulators recommended changes in the
control panels. Later that year, a worker at a rig off the
Louisiana coast was making those very changes when he
accidentally pushed the wrong button - and unlatched the
valves; the ensuing blowout released 8,400 gallons of crude.

The government has long known of such problems, according to
a historical review conducted by the AP. In the late 1990s,
the industry appealed for fewer required pressure tests on
these valves. The federal minerals service did two studies,
each finding that failures were more common than the
industry said.

But the agency, known as MMS, then did its turnaround and
required tests half as often. It estimated that the rule
would yield an annual savings of up to $340,000 per rig. An
industry executive praised the "flexibility" of regulators,
long plagued with accusations that it has been too cozy with
the industry it supervises.

Laurence Power, of Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen,
Scotland, an engineering teacher who has studied these
valves in offshore oil wells, said he has "not been able to
see their logic" for reducing the frequency of testing.

In 1999, right after that rule change, an MMS-commissioned
report by a research group identified 117 blowout preventer
failures at deepwater rigs within the previous year. These
breakdowns created 3,638 hours of lost time - a 4 percent
chunk of drilling time.

In 2004, an engineering study for federal regulators said
only 3 of 14 new devices could shear pipe, as sometimes
required to check leaks, at maximum rated depths. Only half
of operators accepting a newly built device tested this
function during commissioning or acceptance, according to
the report.
snip
Two years later, a trade journal's article still noted that
shearing preventers "may also have difficulty cutting
today's high-strength, high toughness drill pipe" at deep
wells.

The special cutting preventers were blamed in 1979 for the
biggest peacetime well spill in history, when about 140
million gallons of oil poured from a Mexican well in the
Gulf.

Questions about reliability hung heavily but were mostly
unspoken Thursday at a Houston conference on offshore oil
rig technology. Shown a spreadsheet of problems with blowout
preventers, Transocean technology manager John Kozicz said,
"We know that - but they don't happen frequently."

Even Transocean's Earl Shanks, lead author of the 2003 study
reporting "poor BOP reliability," now views blowout
preventers as "very reliable." But he did acknowledge
problems in the complex electronic and hydraulic tangle that
activates and controls the devices. At Deepwater Horizon, he
said, "Something went wrong - and we don't know what."
snip
Cameron International, which made the Deepwater Horizon
preventers, has acknowledged that these lumbering emergency
stoppers need lots of upkeep. "You have to maintain it," CEO
Jack Moore told investors last year. "You have to replace
the mechanical and rubber elements."
snip

--

-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).