Gunner Asch wrote:
The big ones only go up to 3/4"

Must....resist....urge....

email sent

D'OH! :-

Jon

Doing layout work on square tubing is easy. You need a decent machinists
square and a scribe.

When you mark the location of a hole on one side, set the square with the
straightedge perpendicular to the length of the tubing on the first mark,
and scribe around to the opposite side.
When the line is scribed all the way around, the ends will meet if some
attention is expended during the exercise.

With a little care, the holes on opposite sides of the tubing should be
within/less than .010" difference. That will probably be as close as just
drilling thru the tubing can attain.

It's a good practice to pilot drill holes with a 1/8" split-point drill for
holes of 1/2" or larger.
When the layout work and the pilot holes are placed accurately, the larger
holes are generally (nearly) perfectly located, and cut substantially
faster.

Everyone working with metal should have a variety of split-point drills in
sizes up to about 1/4". The split-points start cutting immediately upon
contact, unlike a conventionally ground drill point.

The web in the center of a conventionally ground twist drill is similar to a
cold chisel with a slightly crowned edge. This edge isn't a cutting edge, it
just displaces metal as force is applied, before/until the cutting edges
contact the metal.
The trouble is, the drill continues to require a significant feed force to
continue drilling.
For larger sized drills, the force required to get the cutting edges into
contact with the metal just generates unnecessary heat, then continues to
generate more heat until the hole is finished.

It should be obvious that a good cutting lubricant is going to be a major
benefit.
Application of a small amount, as little as a quick swipe, with a small
paint brush (or disposable acid brush) before starting each hole is
generally adequate.
Laboratory wash bottles with a dip tube and an extended spout are a handy
method of applying cutting lubricant for drilling, milling, sawing and
turning on a lathe.

Again, cutting lubricant doesn't need to be flooded on, just enough to keep
the cutting edges wet, so it's not going to be an expensive practice..
instead, it will reduce cutting time and extend the time of the sharp edges
on cutting tools.

For large holes, a good guide for the size of the pilot drill is the width
of the chisel edge of the web. Then the pilot hole will allow the large
drill to start without a lot of force.
The objective is to generate chips, not watch a drill spin around.

As I've mentioned before, creating split-point drills isn't a difficult
task. By examining a factory-made example of a split-point drill (a larger
one is easier to see), one may notice that there are flats ground at a low
angle to the point, on the trailing/back sides of the flutes.

The back side grinds are made first, then the point is ground in the usual
manner, and the split points will magically appear.

--
WB
..........


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...

Hi Don, and thanks, I appreciate it. The new press has a respectable
3-3/8" plunge, which is considerably longer than my last press, and you
bring up a Very Important Point that has an effect on the drilling
operation for my current project.

First, I may end up using 2-1/2" square steel tubing instead of 3" (for a
number of benefits), which would entail switching over to a 3/4" hole
(instead of a 1" hole).

The new press obviously has the plunge reach to push the bit through both
sides of 2-1/2" square tube, but will that the right procedure?

I will obviously spot drill one side of the tubing, and start drilling
through that side, but then if I continue on through the tubing to drill
out the other side, the bit will be starting in flat
"un-spotted/un-punched" metal.

My concern is that the bit will wander, but perhaps the size of the bit
(3/4") means it is stiff enough to resist skating. Also, perhaps the top
hole will serve as a drill bushing and keep the bit aligned all the way
through.

It would most certainly make my work a lot easier, more than twice as
easy, actually, and even a little more, since it would eliminate the
second spotting procedure for the other side.

Thank you for bringing this up,

Jon

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:40:24 -0700 (PDT), Andrew VK3BFA
wrote:

On Apr 28, 4:32*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:15:55 -0700 (PDT), Andrew VK3BFA



wrote:
On Apr 26, 10:51*pm, "AIOE"

Jon

Hey, that was a good score - AND you were really lucky NOT to get the
teenage daughter as well, if you havent had one yourself, mm, ah,
yes, ..............you are blessed!!! (hopefully, they grow up to be
Human, rather than something just visiting from their home planet..)

Nice to have tools with a bit of grunt in them.

BTW - the car? - well, you know what a bull**** artist Gunner is,
wouldn't believe that bit. OK with the teenage daughter bit - anyone
want mine? *- shes semi-house trained. (A lie well known to all
parents)

Andrew VK3BFA.

http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch

G

Gunner


Do you know how long it takes to cut out those huge, meaninglessly
verbose tag lines Gunner - bloody hell! (get some new, shorter ones,
ok?)


Tag lines? Which ones are you refering to?

Browsed through your album too - thanks, you got a LOTTA
interesting stuff. Your Honda XL350 - if its the wear of the head
where the cam sat, you can line bore it out and fit needle bearings -
just Google it - maybe you got a mill and tooling and setup plates to
do it....would be a bugger to set up, ...you would be up for a pair of
bearings, maybe cam rebuilding, but you would have a good, honest
bike at the end of it.


Indeed. The points were spinning in a rather wierd angle when I checked
them, so indeed the head (aluminum casting "bearings") are toast and Ill
need to bore and set it up for bearings. As you can tell..I may...may
have the gear to do it with in my home shop. One of these days Ill get
Around Tuit.


The Enfield - who the hell got to it, what were they trying to do, its
bloody awful. (Typical English crap too - worn out tooling, poor
castings, archaic work practices, leaked from brand new, poor choice
and use of materials..no technical (or managerial) advances since the
Great War, no wonder the Japs devastated them...) Do the Honda first,
lot easier. Dont be slack - just do it!

I got the enfield in 1971. 2 weeks before I went into the service..and
it sat in my Dads garage some 2500 miles away until last year. A friend
was coming out to California, so we managed to get it all arrainged and
get it out here. That pesky heart surgery, the stroke and the
recovery..and now the lack of income as a result of the Great Depression
Part 2 have all prevented me from doing much with it. However..I did get
it started G..and it runs pretty well. Its a 1961..so the guy before
me did what you see to it in the 10 yrs it was in the US before I got
it. The tractor headlight always fascinated me...blink blink. Finding
actual replacement stuff..head lamp, proper seat etc etc..is
spendy...very very spendy for that scooter, here in the States. And it
being 6vt Postive Ground electrical also makes things a bit more
interesting. But its on my List of Things to do when I get some money.

If you ever have access to a proper headlamp/gages, please keep me in
mind, along with a seat etc. Its one of the last 10 Royal Engfields
imported into the US as an Indian Motorcycle..I have the original
registration papers G. Id love to put it on the street, but original
parts for a 700 Meteor (which it is) are rare and very expensive here in
the States.

My BMW..thats right at the top of the list. Cheap transportation is very
important. at this point. But...it needs a a couple hundred bucks to get
it running as well, tires mostly, battery etc etc. So it too will have
to wait for a while.

As for having interesting Stuff...you didnt think I was kidding when I
mentioned this and that did you?

Gunner



Andrew VK3BFA.


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:41:47 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
The big ones only go up to 3/4"

Must....resist....urge....

email sent

D'OH! :-

Jon

Replied G

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On 2010-04-28, Kevin(Bluey) wrote:

[ ... ]

drill a pilot hole with a smaller drill first say 5/16 or 3/8 right
through.Then use the 3/4 to finish to the correct size.
If the 3/4 drill chatters on entry to the piloy hole get asmall piece of
heavy cloth ,like denim from old jeans and put it over the hole double
thick ness then drill the hole.

Another trick to keep it from chattering -- works with
countersinks as well -- is to bring the tip into contact with the
workpiece with the motor turned off, apply a reasonable pressure, and
flip on the switch. This keeps it from getting room to bounce around
before it bites.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-04-28, Kevin(Bluey) wrote:
On 4/27/2010 11:54 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:

[ ... ]

It is a bit noisy, too; thanks for the tip about the belts.

Jon


Could be the idler pulley bearing , I found on my rexxon the same .I
took the pulley out and found only one bearing , I machined the pulley
out to take two bearings and it quietened down by 40 points on the
Richter scale.

Also -- check to make sure that the idler pulley is not rubbing
on the inside of the belt cover. (If it runs more quietly when the
cover is open, this is likely the problem -- and it will vary somewhat
depending on what belt steps are being used.

IIRC, the cover is held on only by two screws, and the pivot for
the arm on which the idler is mounted goes through a larger hole into
the left-hand side of the casting. If it is rubbing, you can control
that somewhat by tuning the length of the belts in use -- or the less
expensive way is to drill new holes in the bottom half of the cover for
the two screws and the idler pivot so you can shift the whole cover
assembly a bit to the right to clear the belts on all belt settings.

The second fix is what I did with mine since I had just paid for
new belts after perhaps fifteen or twenty years of use. No need to pay
again for more belts.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-04-28, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:40:24 -0700 (PDT), Andrew VK3BFA
wrote:

[ ... ]

Do you know how long it takes to cut out those huge, meaninglessly
verbose tag lines Gunner - bloody hell! (get some new, shorter ones,
ok?)


Tag lines? Which ones are you refering to?

The ones which you try to pretend are not .sigs by omitting the
"-- " delimiter just above them. It used to drive me nuts as I would be
reading along and hit a sudden change of topic with no warning. I
finally realized that it was just another Gunner .sig and ignored them
all.

But really, it would make it easier for those who don't want to
quote your .sig every time they followup to use the proper delimiter.
It probably would do nothing for those who top post and quote the world,
but for those of us who trim properly it could help.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-04-28, Kevin(Bluey) wrote:

[ ... ]

drill a pilot hole with a smaller drill first say 5/16 or 3/8 right
through.Then use the 3/4 to finish to the correct size.
If the 3/4 drill chatters on entry to the piloy hole get asmall piece of
heavy cloth ,like denim from old jeans and put it over the hole double
thick ness then drill the hole.

Another trick to keep it from chattering -- works with
countersinks as well -- is to bring the tip into contact with the
workpiece with the motor turned off, apply a reasonable pressure, and
flip on the switch. This keeps it from getting room to bounce around
before it bites.


That is one of the times a footswitch comes in handy.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Wild_Bill wrote:
Doing layout work on square tubing is easy. You need a decent
machinists square and a scribe.

When you mark the location of a hole on one side, set the square with
the straightedge perpendicular to the length of the tubing on the
first mark, and scribe around to the opposite side.
When the line is scribed all the way around, the ends will meet if
some attention is expended during the exercise.

With a little care, the holes on opposite sides of the tubing should
be within/less than .010" difference. That will probably be as close
as just drilling thru the tubing can attain.

Thanks Bill, I appreciate it. This project will be a good exercise for me
to work out layout and indicating for me. I have seen how indicating is
done with an X-Y table, but I have always had a tricky time lining things up
when the table is not adjustable with such precision, as is the case with my
drill press. What I end up doing is setting up the clamping to be not quite
as tight as I need it, then gently tapping until everything is lined up. I
don't know if there is a better way to do that outside of a proper X-Y
table.


It's a good practice to pilot drill holes with a 1/8" split-point
drill for holes of 1/2" or larger.
When the layout work and the pilot holes are placed accurately, the
larger holes are generally (nearly) perfectly located, and cut
substantially faster.

Ah, thanks, that is an excellent suggesiton. Pre-drilling both sides with a
small hole would make it a breeze to punch through both sides with the big
drill.

I will definitely keep my eye out for a split-point collection.

It should be obvious that a good cutting lubricant is going to be a
major benefit.
Application of a small amount, as little as a quick swipe, with a
small paint brush (or disposable acid brush) before starting each
hole is generally adequate.
Laboratory wash bottles with a dip tube and an extended spout are a
handy method of applying cutting lubricant for drilling, milling,
sawing and turning on a lathe.

I picked up a little bottle of RapidTap yesterday from the local tool shop.
I guess it's high time I started to treat my operations as actual
metalworking.

Thanks again Bill,

Jon

A commomly practiced method for lining up a small pilot drill with the
center punch mark, before clamping the workpiece, is to:

-have the clamp set slightly loose on the workpiece (or vise), drillpress
motor off
-bring the quill down so the drill point sets into the punch mark
-move workpiece to the location where the drill point enters the punch divot
without deflecting
-set the clamp
-bring the drill point to the punch mark once more, to see that there is no
deflection
-then, with power on, drill the hole

These steps insure that the quill will push the drill straight into the
punch mark. An X-Y table won't necessarily align the punch mark any faster
or more accurately.

A basic set of layout tools and a little experience will prepare the
workpiece for accurately placed holes. The final accuracy is up to the
operator.

Getting accurately-placed drilled holes in metal is far easier than working
with wood, IME (thin sheetmetal excluded).

--
WB
..........


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...

Thanks Bill, I appreciate it. This project will be a good exercise for me
to work out layout and indicating for me. I have seen how indicating is
done with an X-Y table, but I have always had a tricky time lining things
up when the table is not adjustable with such precision, as is the case
with my drill press. What I end up doing is setting up the clamping to be
not quite as tight as I need it, then gently tapping until everything is
lined up. I don't know if there is a better way to do that outside of a
proper X-Y table.


It's a good practice to pilot drill holes with a 1/8" split-point
drill for holes of 1/2" or larger.
When the layout work and the pilot holes are placed accurately, the
larger holes are generally (nearly) perfectly located, and cut
substantially faster.

Ah, thanks, that is an excellent suggesiton. Pre-drilling both sides with
a small hole would make it a breeze to punch through both sides with the
big drill.

I will definitely keep my eye out for a split-point collection.

It should be obvious that a good cutting lubricant is going to be a
major benefit.
Application of a small amount, as little as a quick swipe, with a
small paint brush (or disposable acid brush) before starting each
hole is generally adequate.
Laboratory wash bottles with a dip tube and an extended spout are a
handy method of applying cutting lubricant for drilling, milling,
sawing and turning on a lathe.

I picked up a little bottle of RapidTap yesterday from the local tool
shop. I guess it's high time I started to treat my operations as actual
metalworking.

Thanks again Bill,

Jon

Wild_Bill wrote:
A commomly practiced method for lining up a small pilot drill with the
center punch mark, before clamping the workpiece, is to:

-have the clamp set slightly loose on the workpiece (or vise),
drillpress motor off
-bring the quill down so the drill point sets into the punch mark
-move workpiece to the location where the drill point enters the
punch divot without deflecting
-set the clamp
-bring the drill point to the punch mark once more, to see that there
is no deflection
-then, with power on, drill the hole

These steps insure that the quill will push the drill straight into
the punch mark. An X-Y table won't necessarily align the punch mark
any faster or more accurately.

A basic set of layout tools and a little experience will prepare the
workpiece for accurately placed holes. The final accuracy is up to the
operator.

Hi Bill, and thank you for bringing up an issue which has been plaguing my
attempts to layout square work pieces for quite some time.

I have a small combination square, and it constructed along the lines of the
type "A" in the following figure (looking down the long axis of the base):

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5493/squaree.jpg

Does a proper machinist's square use a similar method of attaching the blade
along the centerline of the base? For instance, this one I am looking at
from MSC (SPI 13-626-7):

http://tinyurl.com/2cyrbvc

The issue I am getting at, is that I have trouble scribing a continuous line
around the circumference of a piece of square tubing, because a scribe line
along the edge of the blade will not line up with a scribe line along the
edge of the base (it will, of course, be parallel to it).

It would seem to me that square "B" from the first figure would facilitate
scribing a continuous line around a square piece of stock.

Are machinist's squares, like the SPI one I linked to, constructed along the
lines of drawing "B", or if not, what is the technique to use a square of
type "A" to do so?

Thanks for your help on this issue; this has been a thorn in my side for
some time now.

Jon

If I understand the method you're questioning, it would be described as,
putting the square tubing in the inside corner of a square.
That's not the proper position of the square, for doing the layout work
we've been discussing.

The method I had described is done by placing the square straightedge (or
rule) flat on the tubing side, and perpendicular to the length of the
tubing. The straightedge is laying flat on the side of the tubing.
The thicker part of the square is then touched/held on the adjacent side of
the tubing, with with the length of the thicker part alongside the tubing.
The straightedge will then represent a line across the tubing that is square
to the length.

Most formed square tubing has a significant radius at each corner, but the
face of the thicker part of the square can be extended if needed. The
contact face of the thicker part of the square could be extended (sideways)
with a parallel or similar flat piece of stock, by attaching it with thin
double-sided tape (not the foam type).
The wider surface would bridge the radiused area, and allow surface contact
with the adjacent side.

Generally, I just tilt the thicker part of the square slightly, to make flat
contact with the adjacent side of the tubing. This will cause the
straightedge to stand up slightly on the tubing, but the inner/inside edge
leaves close contact for scribing a square line.

There are squares that are both styles you illustrated, but the more common
type has the straightedge located in the center of the thicker section (A).

When scribing the lines on square tubing with radiused corners, one needs to
"sight" the lines of adjacent sides, since the line scribed on one flat side
of the square tubing won't continue over to the next side.
Solid square stock (like some lumber) has sharp corners, so a scribed line
is easier to extend around the four sides.

If a precisely squared section of angle iron were used for the square tubing
layout job, the two adjacent sides of the angle would show a continuation
from a scribed line on one side of the tubing to the next side.

--
WB
..........


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...

Hi Bill, and thank you for bringing up an issue which has been plaguing my
attempts to layout square work pieces for quite some time.

I have a small combination square, and it constructed along the lines of
the
type "A" in the following figure (looking down the long axis of the base):

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5493/squaree.jpg

Does a proper machinist's square use a similar method of attaching the
blade
along the centerline of the base? For instance, this one I am looking at
from MSC (SPI 13-626-7):

http://tinyurl.com/2cyrbvc

The issue I am getting at, is that I have trouble scribing a continuous
line
around the circumference of a piece of square tubing, because a scribe
line
along the edge of the blade will not line up with a scribe line along the
edge of the base (it will, of course, be parallel to it).

It would seem to me that square "B" from the first figure would facilitate
scribing a continuous line around a square piece of stock.

Are machinist's squares, like the SPI one I linked to, constructed along
the
lines of drawing "B", or if not, what is the technique to use a square of
type "A" to do so?

Thanks for your help on this issue; this has been a thorn in my side for
some time now.

Jon

On Apr 29, 10:57*am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:


* * * * Another trick to keep it from chattering -- works with
countersinks as well -- is to bring the tip into contact with the
workpiece with the motor turned off, apply a reasonable pressure, and
flip on the switch. *This keeps it from getting room to bounce around
before it bites.

* * * * Enjoy,
* * * * * * * * DoN.


Thanks Don for the tip re countersinks - I have had grave trouble
with the things chattering, even after locking the table down - always
looked crap with the chatter marks in the metal - will give it a try.
(found it works better with the lowest speed I can get - possible
similar to what you were describing?) Usually do them by hand to
improve the finish, but a bit tedious (and uneven)
Countersinks? - seems to be two types, the "usual" hardware store/
woodworking types with multiple flutes, and the ones with but a single
shaped and sharp hole in them - they seem to go a bit better, but only
marginally. Can you explain why they are different? - is it different
applications, or for different metals?...

Andrew VK3BFA.

(still learning, so much to do, so little time...)

Wild_Bill wrote:
If I understand the method you're questioning, it would be described
as, putting the square tubing in the inside corner of a square.
That's not the proper position of the square, for doing the layout
work we've been discussing.

The method I had described is done by placing the square straightedge
(or rule) flat on the tubing side, and perpendicular to the length of
the tubing. The straightedge is laying flat on the side of the tubing.
The thicker part of the square is then touched/held on the adjacent
side of the tubing, with with the length of the thicker part
alongside the tubing. The straightedge will then represent a line
across the tubing that is square to the length.

Most formed square tubing has a significant radius at each corner,
but the face of the thicker part of the square can be extended if
needed. The contact face of the thicker part of the square could be
extended (sideways) with a parallel or similar flat piece of stock,
by attaching it with thin double-sided tape (not the foam type).
The wider surface would bridge the radiused area, and allow surface
contact with the adjacent side.

Generally, I just tilt the thicker part of the square slightly, to
make flat contact with the adjacent side of the tubing. This will
cause the straightedge to stand up slightly on the tubing, but the
inner/inside edge leaves close contact for scribing a square line.

There are squares that are both styles you illustrated, but the more
common type has the straightedge located in the center of the thicker
section (A).
When scribing the lines on square tubing with radiused corners, one
needs to "sight" the lines of adjacent sides, since the line scribed
on one flat side of the square tubing won't continue over to the next
side. Solid square stock (like some lumber) has sharp corners, so a
scribed
line is easier to extend around the four sides.

If a precisely squared section of angle iron were used for the square
tubing layout job, the two adjacent sides of the angle would show a
continuation from a scribed line on one side of the tubing to the
next side.

Hi Bill, and thanks again for your help. Now that I understand this method,
I will certainly acquire a proper square. I do agree that my current
project may likely be more suited towards using a well-squared section of
angle iron (due to the large corner radius), but the layout accuracy of my
other projects will benefit from the addition of a square to my arsenal.

On the topic of squares, I looked at the one I am considering getting:

http://tinyurl.com/2cyrbvc

but it looks to be of a type represented by model "B" in the following
figu

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9239/square02.jpg

If this is the case (I cannot get a good enough look at the square to tell
for sure, but many other squares seem to be of that type), I would not be
able to use it using the method you outlined.

Do you know of a similarly priced ($20) square or series of squares which
would be constructed similar to model "A"?

Thanks again for your help with this,

Jon

"Jon Danniken" wrote:

Hi Bill, and thanks again for your help. Now that I understand this method,
I will certainly acquire a proper square. I do agree that my current
project may likely be more suited towards using a well-squared section of
angle iron (due to the large corner radius), but the layout accuracy of my
other projects will benefit from the addition of a square to my arsenal.

Likely made in India. Set on surface plate, check each one to the other three, you will
see light if one or more isn't square. I have a set of 4 I bought years ago that is good
enough for what I do at home.

Wes

Different layout jobs require at least a couple of different types of
squares. The combination types, with a sliding rule and 90/45 degree
surfaces are very handy to have. Scribing a measured line parallel to an
edge is one good use.
An accessory for a good combination square is the V that is useful for
marking the center of round objects.
The trouble with many import/generic low-priced combination squares is that
the components are cheaply made, so they aren't likely to last long.

A good quality combination square will practically last indefinitely, if it
gets the proper care.

The fixed-type squares you've been referencing are useful too, regardless of
whether the straightedge extends outward from the top of the thicker section
(B).
The fixed type squares will stay accurate, unlike the cheap combination-type
squares with low grade components.
The accuracy of the fixed types can be compared with precision 1-2-3 blocks
(or larger) and a couple of precision parallels. Some careful filing can
improve or restore the squareness.

Both types A or B would be suitable for your present task. Nearly all of the
popular tool dealers have cheap import grade, and also better quality
squares.

On rough, unfinished stock, there can be a lot of surface irregularities
that may have a major affect on accuracy when checking square, or doing
layout. Longer contact surfaces of squares can average out slight waves in
the surface, as long as there aren't any "bimps" higher than the surface.
Using a square that has a contact surface that's too small can lead to a lot
of errors and frustration.

--
WB
..........


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
Hi Bill, and thanks again for your help. Now that I understand this
method, I will certainly acquire a proper square. I do agree that my
current project may likely be more suited towards using a well-squared
section of angle iron (due to the large corner radius), but the layout
accuracy of my other projects will benefit from the addition of a square
to my arsenal.

On the topic of squares, I looked at the one I am considering getting:

http://tinyurl.com/2cyrbvc

but it looks to be of a type represented by model "B" in the following
figu

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9239/square02.jpg

If this is the case (I cannot get a good enough look at the square to tell
for sure, but many other squares seem to be of that type), I would not be
able to use it using the method you outlined.

Do you know of a similarly priced ($20) square or series of squares which
would be constructed similar to model "A"?

Thanks again for your help with this,

Jon

On 2010-04-30, Andrew VK3BFA wrote:
On Apr 29, 10:57*am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:


* * * * Another trick to keep it from chattering -- works with
countersinks as well -- is to bring the tip into contact with the
workpiece with the motor turned off, apply a reasonable pressure, and
flip on the switch. *This keeps it from getting room to bounce around
before it bites.

* * * * Enjoy,
* * * * * * * * DoN.


Thanks Don for the tip re countersinks - I have had grave trouble
with the things chattering, even after locking the table down - always
looked crap with the chatter marks in the metal - will give it a try.
(found it works better with the lowest speed I can get - possible
similar to what you were describing?)

Related. My trick makes sure that when they start, they are
already in contact through the slowest part of the speed-up cycle. If
you start them in firm contact, they will usually stay in firm contact,
unless the workpiece has a lot of flexibility.

[ ... ]

Countersinks? - seems to be two types, the "usual" hardware store/
woodworking types with multiple flutes, and the ones with but a single
shaped and sharp hole in them - they seem to go a bit better, but only
marginally. Can you explain why they are different? - is it different
applications, or for different metals?...

There are actually more than that. The wood ones are usually a
pair of flutes 180 degrees apart. And they may be available in
different included angles, depending on the availability of screws with
similar angles.

The metalworking ones come in quite a few styles, and in
included angles of at least 82 degrees, 90 degrees, and 100 degrees.
The 100 degrees is for relatively thin sheet metal so the entire length
of the head can be within the metal to be mounted.

Aside from the different angles, they also come with two flutes,
three flutes, six (irregularly space) flutes (made by Severance), and
supposed to minimize chatter -- better than equally spaced flutes, but
still chatter under certain circumstances. Start them as I described
above and they are pretty good. Back away quickly when deep enough so
they don't get a chance to start chatter. If you see a six fluted
countersink, look carefully at the end, and you will see that some
flutes are closer together than others, and you will likely see the name
"Severance" on the side of the bit -- though I think that the patent has
expired, and others are now making them as well.

Then there are the M. A. Ford single-flute ones which seem to be
quite good at not chattering if started well.

And the ones with the angled hole in a single face are also
pretty good. They are harder to resharpen. There is a special fixture
for resharpening the M.A. Ford ones.

Also -- there are spotting drills (single flute going to center,
full cone) used for making a starting point for a drilled hole working
from either a center punch or crossed scribe lines. These typically
have the shank the same diameter as the cutting end and are short so
they are stiff and won't deflect easily.

And -- there are the combination drill/countersink (double
ended, 60 degree countersink with a very small very short drill in the
end, used for drilling center holes for use when turning between centers
on a lathe. These are often used in place of spotting drills, but are
not quite as nice.

Oh yes -- then there are the Micro-Stop countersinks (usually
100 degree angle for metal to be riveted as skin in aircraft building).
The countersink has a pilot on one end for a specific size hole to guide
it in and minimize chatter, and a 1/4-28 male thread on the other end
which screws into a shaft in bearings in a cage which can be adjusted in
0.001" increments to control the depth of the countersink. You can use
these in a drill press, or in an electric or air powered drill. Very
nice for consistent countersink depth if you are doing many. The depth
stop on the drill press is usually not precise enough for this kind of
control.

Unless you really *need* these, don't buy them new. But you can
often get the adjustable cage and a number of the countersink bits
(along with facing bits to finish the already set rivet flush with the
surface) in a lot on eBay.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 29 Apr 2010 01:13:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-04-28, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:40:24 -0700 (PDT), Andrew VK3BFA
wrote:

[ ... ]

Do you know how long it takes to cut out those huge, meaninglessly
verbose tag lines Gunner - bloody hell! (get some new, shorter ones,
ok?)


Tag lines? Which ones are you refering to?

The ones which you try to pretend are not .sigs by omitting the
"-- " delimiter just above them. It used to drive me nuts as I would be
reading along and hit a sudden change of topic with no warning. I
finally realized that it was just another Gunner .sig and ignored them
all.

But really, it would make it easier for those who don't want to
quote your .sig every time they followup to use the proper delimiter.
It probably would do nothing for those who top post and quote the world,
but for those of us who trim properly it could help.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Ive used Agent for years, never changing anything internally and you are
the first one to mention that its not working properly.

Shrug

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 21:20:28 -0700
Gunner Asch wrote:

On 29 Apr 2010 01:13:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

snip
But really, it would make it easier for those who don't want to
quote your .sig every time they followup to use the proper delimiter.
It probably would do nothing for those who top post and quote the world,
but for those of us who trim properly it could help.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Ive used Agent for years, never changing anything internally and you are
the first one to mention that its not working properly.

Shrug

Gunner

Oh others have noticed your .sig error too, just didn't figure it was
worth complaining. Kinda like peeing your pants while wearing a dark
suit. You get a nice warm feeling but nobody really notices...

Agent doesn't do everything for you, the "-- " delimiter needs to be
added along with your sig line. At least in all the older versions of
Agent that I have used...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Wild_Bill wrote:
Different layout jobs require at least a couple of different types of
squares. The combination types, with a sliding rule and 90/45 degree
surfaces are very handy to have. Scribing a measured line parallel to
an edge is one good use.
An accessory for a good combination square is the V that is useful for
marking the center of round objects.
The trouble with many import/generic low-priced combination squares
is that the components are cheaply made, so they aren't likely to
last long.
A good quality combination square will practically last indefinitely,
if it gets the proper care.

The fixed-type squares you've been referencing are useful too,
regardless of whether the straightedge extends outward from the top
of the thicker section (B).
The fixed type squares will stay accurate, unlike the cheap
combination-type squares with low grade components.
The accuracy of the fixed types can be compared with precision 1-2-3
blocks (or larger) and a couple of precision parallels. Some careful
filing can improve or restore the squareness.

Both types A or B would be suitable for your present task. Nearly all
of the popular tool dealers have cheap import grade, and also better
quality squares.

On rough, unfinished stock, there can be a lot of surface
irregularities that may have a major affect on accuracy when checking
square, or doing layout. Longer contact surfaces of squares can
average out slight waves in the surface, as long as there aren't any
"bimps" higher than the surface. Using a square that has a contact
surface that's too small can lead to a lot of errors and frustration.

THanks Bill, I appreciate your time.

Jon

You're welcome, Jon.
Anyone that shows a sincere interest in metalworking should, at least, be
able to get some suggestions when questions are asked here.

--
WB
..........


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
THanks Bill, I appreciate your time.

Jon

On 2010-05-01, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 29 Apr 2010 01:13:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-04-28, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Tag lines? Which ones are you refering to?

The ones which you try to pretend are not .sigs by omitting the
"-- " delimiter just above them. It used to drive me nuts as I would be
reading along and hit a sudden change of topic with no warning. I
finally realized that it was just another Gunner .sig and ignored them
all.

But really, it would make it easier for those who don't want to
quote your .sig every time they followup to use the proper delimiter.
It probably would do nothing for those who top post and quote the world,
but for those of us who trim properly it could help.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Ive used Agent for years, never changing anything internally and you are
the first one to mention that its not working properly.

Actually, no I am not. I have seen it mentioned before (a few
years ago), and I think that I even remember you responding that it was
intentional, so people who have their newsreaders configured to hide
..sigs would still have to see yours.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 1 May 2010 23:04:51 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-05-01, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 29 Apr 2010 01:13:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-04-28, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

Tag lines? Which ones are you refering to?

The ones which you try to pretend are not .sigs by omitting the
"-- " delimiter just above them. It used to drive me nuts as I would be
reading along and hit a sudden change of topic with no warning. I
finally realized that it was just another Gunner .sig and ignored them
all.

But really, it would make it easier for those who don't want to
quote your .sig every time they followup to use the proper delimiter.
It probably would do nothing for those who top post and quote the world,
but for those of us who trim properly it could help.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Ive used Agent for years, never changing anything internally and you are
the first one to mention that its not working properly.

Actually, no I am not. I have seen it mentioned before (a few
years ago), and I think that I even remember you responding that it was
intentional, so people who have their newsreaders configured to hide
.sigs would still have to see yours.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Shrug...Cant remember that. Probably the result of my stroke.

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first line of
the file.

(Re)Save the file.

"RAM³" wrote in
. 10:

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first
line of the file.

(Re)Save the file.


BTW - that line should only contain 3 characters...

On 02 May 2010 04:47:34 GMT, "RAM³" wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first line of
the file.

(Re)Save the file.

Ok, and this does what to my sig?

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On 2010-05-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 1 May 2010 23:04:51 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-05-01, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 29 Apr 2010 01:13:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

But really, it would make it easier for those who don't want to
quote your .sig every time they followup to use the proper delimiter.
It probably would do nothing for those who top post and quote the world,
but for those of us who trim properly it could help.

[ ... ]

Ive used Agent for years, never changing anything internally and you are
the first one to mention that its not working properly.

Actually, no I am not. I have seen it mentioned before (a few
years ago), and I think that I even remember you responding that it was
intentional, so people who have their newsreaders configured to hide
.sigs would still have to see yours.

[ ... ]

Shrug...Cant remember that. Probably the result of my stroke.

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Most newsreaders do it by default, and you have to take special
steps to keep it from doing so.

But if your version of Agent does not do it for you, just modify
the files from which your .sig quotes are extracted to have each one
start with a line with two hyphens (dashes) and a blank space starting
at the left margin. Nothing else on that line, just the "-- " (without
the quotes).

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On May 1, 11:37*am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-04-30, Andrew VK3BFA wrote:



On Apr 29, 10:57*am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:

* * * * Another trick to keep it from chattering -- works with
countersinks as well -- is to bring the tip into contact with the
workpiece with the motor turned off, apply a reasonable pressure, and
flip on the switch. *This keeps it from getting room to bounce around
before it bites.

* * * * Enjoy,
* * * * * * * * DoN.

Thanks Don for the tip re countersinks - I *have had grave trouble
with the things chattering, even after locking the table down - always
looked crap with the chatter marks in the metal - will give it a try.
(found it works better with the lowest speed I can get - possible
similar to what you were describing?)

* * * * Related. *My trick makes sure that when they start, they are
already in contact through the slowest part of the speed-up cycle. *If
you start them in firm contact, they will usually stay in firm contact,
unless the workpiece has a lot of flexibility.

* * * * [ ... ]

Countersinks? - seems to be two types, the "usual" hardware store/
woodworking types with multiple flutes, and the ones with but a single
shaped and sharp hole in them - they seem to go a bit better, but only
marginally. Can you explain why they are different? - is it different
applications, or for different metals?...

* * * * There are actually more than that. *The wood ones are usually a
pair of flutes 180 degrees apart. *And they may be available in
different included angles, depending on the availability of screws with
similar angles.

* * * * The metalworking ones come in quite a few styles, and in
included angles of at least 82 degrees, 90 degrees, and 100 degrees.
The 100 degrees is for relatively thin sheet metal so the entire length
of the head can be within the metal to be mounted.

* * * * Aside from the different angles, they also come with two flutes,
three flutes, six (irregularly space) flutes (made by Severance), and
supposed to minimize chatter -- better than equally spaced flutes, but
still chatter under certain circumstances. *Start them as I described
above and they are pretty good. *Back away quickly when deep enough so
they don't get a chance to start chatter. *If you see a six fluted
countersink, look carefully at the end, and you will see that some
flutes are closer together than others, and you will likely see the name
"Severance" on the side of the bit -- though I think that the patent has
expired, and others are now making them as well.

* * * * Then there are the M. A. Ford single-flute ones which seem to be
quite good at not chattering if started well.

* * * * And the ones with the angled hole in a single face are also
pretty good. *They are harder to resharpen. *There is a special fixture
for resharpening the M.A. Ford ones.

* * * * Also -- there are spotting drills (single flute going to center,
full cone) used for making a starting point for a drilled hole working
from either a center punch or crossed scribe lines. *These typically
have the shank the same diameter as the cutting end and are short so
they are stiff and won't deflect easily.

* * * * And -- there are the combination drill/countersink (double
ended, 60 degree countersink with a very small very short drill in the
end, used for drilling center holes for use when turning between centers
on a lathe. *These are often used in place of spotting drills, but are
not quite as nice.

* * * * Oh yes -- then there are the Micro-Stop countersinks (usually
100 degree angle for metal to be riveted as skin in aircraft building).
The countersink has a pilot on one end for a specific size hole to guide
it in and minimize chatter, and a 1/4-28 male thread on the other end
which screws into a shaft in bearings in a cage which can be adjusted in
0.001" increments to control the depth of the countersink. *You can use
these in a drill press, or in an electric or air powered drill. *Very
nice for consistent countersink depth if you are doing many. *The depth
stop on the drill press is usually not precise enough for this kind of
control.

* * * * Unless you really *need* these, don't buy them new. *But you can
often get the adjustable cage and a number of the countersink bits
(along with facing bits to finish the already set rivet flush with the
surface) in a lot on eBay.

* * * * Enjoy,
* * * * * * * * DoN.

--
*Email: * * | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
* * * * (too) near Washington D.C. |http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
* * * * * *--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Thank you Don. At the moment, I can cope with the 2 types of
countersinks I have seen - yes, I know the woodworking ones are
different - so thank you for your History of Countersinks reply. Need
to ponder most of it.

Andrew VK3BFA.

On 2 May 2010 05:39:44 GMT, the infamous "DoN. Nichols"
scrawled the following:

On 2010-05-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 1 May 2010 23:04:51 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-05-01, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 29 Apr 2010 01:13:56 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

But really, it would make it easier for those who don't want to
quote your .sig every time they followup to use the proper delimiter.
It probably would do nothing for those who top post and quote the world,
but for those of us who trim properly it could help.

[ ... ]

Ive used Agent for years, never changing anything internally and you are
the first one to mention that its not working properly.

Actually, no I am not. I have seen it mentioned before (a few
years ago), and I think that I even remember you responding that it was
intentional, so people who have their newsreaders configured to hide
.sigs would still have to see yours.

[ ... ]

Shrug...Cant remember that. Probably the result of my stroke.

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Most newsreaders do it by default, and you have to take special
steps to keep it from doing so.

But if your version of Agent does not do it for you, just modify
the files from which your .sig quotes are extracted to have each one
start with a line with two hyphens (dashes) and a blank space starting
at the left margin. Nothing else on that line, just the "-- " (without
the quotes).

I intentionally omit the space so I can see when my sig gets stale. If
you know of any automatic sig changer for Agent, I'll install it so
you don't have to put up with my persistent sigs. I haven't seen one.

--
Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.
-- Raymond Lindquist

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On 02 May 2010 04:47:34 GMT, "RAM³" wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote in
m:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first line of
the file.

(Re)Save the file.

Ok, and this does what to my sig?


The same thing as the "snip" that I just applied: it tells the other guys'
newsreaders to NOT insert it when composing a reply.

This, then, shortens the reply and the reply to the reply and the reply to
the reply to the reply...ad nauseum. grin

Example:
_____________
--
Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


________________

Gunner Asch on Sat, 01 May 2010 22:34:10 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 02 May 2010 04:47:34 GMT, "RAM³" wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote in
m:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first line of
the file.

(Re)Save the file.

Ok, and this does what to my sig?

Marks it as "not part of the message" so that followups don't
include it.

Gunner


Insert hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

If there had been an actual hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR above,
all the text 'south' of it would not have been included.

This does cause some problem with top posters, who end their post
with that double dash. When you reply, all one sees is what they
posted, not what they were responding to.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sun, 02 May 2010 19:16:45 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sat, 01 May 2010 22:34:10 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 02 May 2010 04:47:34 GMT, "RAM³" wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first line of
the file.

(Re)Save the file.

Ok, and this does what to my sig?

Marks it as "not part of the message" so that followups don't
include it.

Gunner


Insert hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

If there had been an actual hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR above,
all the text 'south' of it would not have been included.

This does cause some problem with top posters, who end their post
with that double dash. When you reply, all one sees is what they
posted, not what they were responding to.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!


Ok, this one should have the mechanism.

Gunner

--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 02 May 2010 19:16:45 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sat, 01 May 2010 22:34:10 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 02 May 2010 04:47:34 GMT, "RAM³" wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first line of
the file.

(Re)Save the file.

Ok, and this does what to my sig?

Marks it as "not part of the message" so that followups don't
include it.

Gunner


Insert hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

If there had been an actual hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR above,
all the text 'south' of it would not have been included.

This does cause some problem with top posters, who end their post
with that double dash. When you reply, all one sees is what they
posted, not what they were responding to.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Ok, this one should have the mechanism.

Gunner

--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


No, you have a leading space. It should be like this:

--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch on Sun, 02 May 2010 19:52:34 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sun, 02 May 2010 19:16:45 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sat, 01 May 2010 22:34:10 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 02 May 2010 04:47:34 GMT, "RAM³" wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote in
m:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first line of
the file.

(Re)Save the file.

Ok, and this does what to my sig?

Marks it as "not part of the message" so that followups don't
include it.

Gunner


Insert hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

If there had been an actual hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR above,
all the text 'south' of it would not have been included.

This does cause some problem with top posters, who end their post
with that double dash. When you reply, all one sees is what they
posted, not what they were responding to.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!


Ok, this one should have the mechanism.

Gunner

--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Close - needs that space after the final hyphen (I know because, I
get the occasional comment because one of mine is Proper.)
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Mon, 03 May 2010 00:28:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 02 May 2010 19:16:45 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sat, 01 May 2010 22:34:10 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 02 May 2010 04:47:34 GMT, "RAM³" wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

No matter. Ill fix it when I find out how.

Open the file containing your sig in "edit" mode.

Insert hyphenhyphenspacecarriage return/enter as the first line of
the file.

(Re)Save the file.

Ok, and this does what to my sig?

Marks it as "not part of the message" so that followups don't
include it.

Gunner


Insert hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

If there had been an actual hyphenhyphenspaceLF/CR above,
all the text 'south' of it would not have been included.

This does cause some problem with top posters, who end their post
with that double dash. When you reply, all one sees is what they
posted, not what they were responding to.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Ok, this one should have the mechanism.

Gunner

--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


No, you have a leading space. It should be like this:

Ok. removed the leading space

Gunner

--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch wrote:

Ok. removed the leading space


Good. Now add a space after the two dashes.


--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Larry Jaques wrote:


I intentionally omit the space so I can see when my sig gets stale. If
you know of any automatic sig changer for Agent, I'll install it so
you don't have to put up with my persistent sigs. I haven't seen one.

I can live with sigs. What is annoying is "someone scrawled, what's that
lassie, or let it be announced that someone spewed" and other crap at the
beginning of reposts.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

On Mon, 03 May 2010 10:21:29 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Ok. removed the leading space


Good. Now add a space after the two dashes.

Ok, just did that.




--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

On Mon, 03 May 2010 10:21:29 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Ok. removed the leading space


Good. Now add a space after the two dashes.

Ok, just did that.




--

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


==
"By George, I think he's got it!" - Professor 'Enry 'Iggins

RAM³ wrote:
==
"By George, I think he's got it!" - Professor 'Enry 'Iggins

Now, "Steve B". Hopefully Gunner has set a good example. Bob