Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:34:47 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

If you want to get a permit and carry
concealed I think that is sensible. But just walking around everybody
else with a gun on your hip like a cop seems a little weird, if you ask me.

Hawke


Roger that.

If ya wanna be a cop, do the training regimen and take the job.

A CCW does not make the posessor an ersatz cop, champion of the
oppressed, defender of others. It merely conveys the legal right to
carry a weapon. Actual use of that weapon is subject to lots more law,
both criminal and civial. Legal defense is expensive, figure $50K
minimum. Acceptable if death would obviously and provably been the
result of not killing, pricey otherwise. You have seconds to make that
decision, and however that turns out the perp's rellies who mourned
his sorry ass while he was planted at public cost will know your
address.
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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

On 4/17/2010 11:48 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:34:47 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

If you want to get a permit and carry
concealed I think that is sensible. But just walking around everybody
else with a gun on your hip like a cop seems a little weird, if you ask me.

Hawke


Roger that.

If ya wanna be a cop, do the training regimen and take the job.

A CCW does not make the posessor an ersatz cop, champion of the
oppressed, defender of others. It merely conveys the legal right to
carry a weapon. Actual use of that weapon is subject to lots more law,
both criminal and civial. Legal defense is expensive, figure $50K
minimum. Acceptable if death would obviously and provably been the
result of not killing, pricey otherwise. You have seconds to make that
decision, and however that turns out the perp's rellies who mourned
his sorry ass while he was planted at public cost will know your
address.



You're right on the money. The first problem you have if you use a gun
for self defense is are you correct in that judgment. Were you legally
right when you decided to use deadly force? You may have to make that
decision very quickly and without knowing a lot of the facts. Then if
you do use your weapon comes the second guessing by the state. Was it
all legal and proper? Hopefully it was and you aren't prosecuted for
using the weapon when you didn't have the legal right to do it. But even
if you were legally allowed to use the weapon you're not free from civil
liability. The person you shot can sue you even if you were legally in
the right and they may win in court. Last comes the psychological impact
on you that comes from shooting another human being. Some people have no
trouble with this but others are greatly affected by shooting another
person even though they had to. So the truth is it's a hell of a big
responsibility to even have a gun on you. Even more so if you actually
ever use it. Most people never give things like this a thought until its
way too late.

Hawke
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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?



"Hawke" wrote in message
...
On 4/17/2010 11:48 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:34:47 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

If you want to get a permit and carry
concealed I think that is sensible. But just walking around everybody
else with a gun on your hip like a cop seems a little weird, if you ask
me.

Hawke


Roger that.

If ya wanna be a cop, do the training regimen and take the job.

A CCW does not make the posessor an ersatz cop, champion of the
oppressed, defender of others. It merely conveys the legal right to
carry a weapon. Actual use of that weapon is subject to lots more law,
both criminal and civial. Legal defense is expensive, figure $50K
minimum. Acceptable if death would obviously and provably been the
result of not killing, pricey otherwise. You have seconds to make that
decision, and however that turns out the perp's rellies who mourned
his sorry ass while he was planted at public cost will know your
address.



You're right on the money. The first problem you have if you use a gun for
self defense is are you correct in that judgment. Were you legally right
when you decided to use deadly force? You may have to make that decision
very quickly and without knowing a lot of the facts. Then if you do use
your weapon comes the second guessing by the state. Was it all legal and
proper? Hopefully it was and you aren't prosecuted for using the weapon
when you didn't have the legal right to do it. But even if you were
legally allowed to use the weapon you're not free from civil liability.
The person you shot can sue you even if you were legally in the right and
they may win in court. Last comes the psychological impact on you that
comes from shooting another human being. Some people have no trouble with
this but others are greatly affected by shooting another person even
though they had to. So the truth is it's a hell of a big responsibility to
even have a gun on you. Even more so if you actually ever use it. Most
people never give things like this a thought until its way too late.


Depending where you are, you may not have to worry about the civil courts.
Many Staes shield the self defender against civil repercussions if the
shooting was done in self defense. I'll agree about the psychological impact
that some people might feel. I may even feel sad for a short time but take
comfort in the fact that it was them instead of me or a loved one. Ice cream
usually cheers me up a bit :-) Actually, the honest citizen who defends
himself probably give it much more thought than the bad guy does.

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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:01:29 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 4/17/2010 11:48 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:34:47 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

If you want to get a permit and carry
concealed I think that is sensible. But just walking around everybody
else with a gun on your hip like a cop seems a little weird, if you ask me.

Hawke


Roger that.

If ya wanna be a cop, do the training regimen and take the job.

A CCW does not make the posessor an ersatz cop, champion of the
oppressed, defender of others. It merely conveys the legal right to
carry a weapon. Actual use of that weapon is subject to lots more law,
both criminal and civial. Legal defense is expensive, figure $50K
minimum. Acceptable if death would obviously and provably been the
result of not killing, pricey otherwise. You have seconds to make that
decision, and however that turns out the perp's rellies who mourned
his sorry ass while he was planted at public cost will know your
address.



You're right on the money. The first problem you have if you use a gun
for self defense is are you correct in that judgment. Were you legally
right when you decided to use deadly force? You may have to make that
decision very quickly and without knowing a lot of the facts. Then if
you do use your weapon comes the second guessing by the state. Was it
all legal and proper? Hopefully it was and you aren't prosecuted for
using the weapon when you didn't have the legal right to do it. But even
if you were legally allowed to use the weapon you're not free from civil
liability. The person you shot can sue you even if you were legally in
the right and they may win in court. Last comes the psychological impact
on you that comes from shooting another human being. Some people have no
trouble with this but others are greatly affected by shooting another
person even though they had to. So the truth is it's a hell of a big
responsibility to even have a gun on you. Even more so if you actually
ever use it. Most people never give things like this a thought until its
way too late.

Hawke


An important reason for requiring training to get a CCW is to inform
applicants of these issues. Not all states require training. I
encourage everyone who buys a first handgun to get this training
whether or not they intend to carry or apply for a permit.
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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:02:18 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:01:29 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 4/17/2010 11:48 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:34:47 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

If you want to get a permit and carry
concealed I think that is sensible. But just walking around everybody
else with a gun on your hip like a cop seems a little weird, if you ask me.

Hawke

Roger that.

If ya wanna be a cop, do the training regimen and take the job.

A CCW does not make the posessor an ersatz cop, champion of the
oppressed, defender of others. It merely conveys the legal right to
carry a weapon. Actual use of that weapon is subject to lots more law,
both criminal and civial. Legal defense is expensive, figure $50K
minimum. Acceptable if death would obviously and provably been the
result of not killing, pricey otherwise. You have seconds to make that
decision, and however that turns out the perp's rellies who mourned
his sorry ass while he was planted at public cost will know your
address.



You're right on the money. The first problem you have if you use a gun
for self defense is are you correct in that judgment. Were you legally
right when you decided to use deadly force? You may have to make that
decision very quickly and without knowing a lot of the facts. Then if
you do use your weapon comes the second guessing by the state. Was it
all legal and proper? Hopefully it was and you aren't prosecuted for
using the weapon when you didn't have the legal right to do it. But even
if you were legally allowed to use the weapon you're not free from civil
liability. The person you shot can sue you even if you were legally in
the right and they may win in court. Last comes the psychological impact
on you that comes from shooting another human being. Some people have no
trouble with this but others are greatly affected by shooting another
person even though they had to. So the truth is it's a hell of a big
responsibility to even have a gun on you. Even more so if you actually
ever use it. Most people never give things like this a thought until its
way too late.

Hawke


An important reason for requiring training to get a CCW is to inform
applicants of these issues. Not all states require training. I
encourage everyone who buys a first handgun to get this training
whether or not they intend to carry or apply for a permit.



I strongly agree with Don. Get training!

It covers your ass if the **** hits the fan, and it helps you make the
RIGHT decisions. Which isnt always,,,, pulling the trigger.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:02:18 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:01:29 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 4/17/2010 11:48 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:34:47 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

If you want to get a permit and carry
concealed I think that is sensible. But just walking around everybody
else with a gun on your hip like a cop seems a little weird, if you ask me.

Hawke

Roger that.

If ya wanna be a cop, do the training regimen and take the job.

A CCW does not make the posessor an ersatz cop, champion of the
oppressed, defender of others. It merely conveys the legal right to
carry a weapon. Actual use of that weapon is subject to lots more law,
both criminal and civial. Legal defense is expensive, figure $50K
minimum. Acceptable if death would obviously and provably been the
result of not killing, pricey otherwise. You have seconds to make that
decision, and however that turns out the perp's rellies who mourned
his sorry ass while he was planted at public cost will know your
address.



You're right on the money. The first problem you have if you use a gun
for self defense is are you correct in that judgment. Were you legally
right when you decided to use deadly force? You may have to make that
decision very quickly and without knowing a lot of the facts. Then if
you do use your weapon comes the second guessing by the state. Was it
all legal and proper? Hopefully it was and you aren't prosecuted for
using the weapon when you didn't have the legal right to do it. But even
if you were legally allowed to use the weapon you're not free from civil
liability. The person you shot can sue you even if you were legally in
the right and they may win in court. Last comes the psychological impact
on you that comes from shooting another human being. Some people have no
trouble with this but others are greatly affected by shooting another
person even though they had to. So the truth is it's a hell of a big
responsibility to even have a gun on you. Even more so if you actually
ever use it. Most people never give things like this a thought until its
way too late.

Hawke


An important reason for requiring training to get a CCW is to inform
applicants of these issues. Not all states require training. I
encourage everyone who buys a first handgun to get this training
whether or not they intend to carry or apply for a permit.


I'll ditto that, Don. The classes also hammer it into you that you're
probably not going to be protecting the innocent and saving the world
with your new concealed weapon, that the legal implications of even
_showing_ it can be, shall we say, interesting. Oregon doesn't have a
requirement for hands-on training, so 90% of the class was oral, but
our instructor wanted to be sure that we could all hit a torso-sized
piece of cardboard at 15' with our weapons. We all did, without
problems or too much flinching. The guy standing to the right of my
little 4"-barreled P-11 complained of how loud the little beastie was.
I definitely want hearing protection when I shoot it.

--
"I think you very well may see a revolution in this country and
it will not be a revolution to overthrow the government," he said.
"It would be a revolution to restore government to its constitutional
basis." --Rob Weaver on VoA, 4/19/10
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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

Gunner Asch on Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:09:51 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

An important reason for requiring training to get a CCW is to inform
applicants of these issues. Not all states require training. I
encourage everyone who buys a first handgun to get this training
whether or not they intend to carry or apply for a permit.



I strongly agree with Don. Get training!

It covers your ass if the **** hits the fan, and it helps you make the
RIGHT decisions. Which isnt always,,,, pulling the trigger.


"Lethal force is not an option. It is all that you have left
after your options run out." I remember that from the class.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:12:47 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:09:51 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

An important reason for requiring training to get a CCW is to inform
applicants of these issues. Not all states require training. I
encourage everyone who buys a first handgun to get this training
whether or not they intend to carry or apply for a permit.



I strongly agree with Don. Get training!

It covers your ass if the **** hits the fan, and it helps you make the
RIGHT decisions. Which isnt always,,,, pulling the trigger.


"Lethal force is not an option. It is all that you have left
after your options run out." I remember that from the class.


Absolutely correct.

Which is the reason Ive NOT had to pull the trigger the last 6 times I
had to present my weapon. I hope..pray... that continues.

Gunner

-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

Gunner Asch on Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:44:09 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:12:47 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:09:51 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

An important reason for requiring training to get a CCW is to inform
applicants of these issues. Not all states require training. I
encourage everyone who buys a first handgun to get this training
whether or not they intend to carry or apply for a permit.


I strongly agree with Don. Get training!

It covers your ass if the **** hits the fan, and it helps you make the
RIGHT decisions. Which isnt always,,,, pulling the trigger.


"Lethal force is not an option. It is all that you have left
after your options run out." I remember that from the class.


Absolutely correct.

Which is the reason Ive NOT had to pull the trigger the last 6 times I
had to present my weapon. I hope..pray... that continues.


The MP told me he was taught, and did teach, "Do not un holster
unless you mean to fire it, do not fire unless you intend to shoot
some one, do not shoot some one unless you intend a fatal wound." Not
that you _had_ do all those things, but "It's not a game, it's not a
method for sending a 'message' - if you're not as serious as a heart
attack in a bus driver, do not even stop.
Or as I put it once, using a fake gun to try and scare off someone
merely wastes times you could have spent running away.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:02:18 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:01:29 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

On 4/17/2010 11:48 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:34:47 -0700, Hawke
wrote:

If you want to get a permit and carry
concealed I think that is sensible. But just walking around everybody
else with a gun on your hip like a cop seems a little weird, if you
ask me.

Hawke

Roger that.

If ya wanna be a cop, do the training regimen and take the job.

A CCW does not make the posessor an ersatz cop, champion of the
oppressed, defender of others. It merely conveys the legal right to
carry a weapon. Actual use of that weapon is subject to lots more law,
both criminal and civial. Legal defense is expensive, figure $50K
minimum. Acceptable if death would obviously and provably been the
result of not killing, pricey otherwise. You have seconds to make that
decision, and however that turns out the perp's rellies who mourned
his sorry ass while he was planted at public cost will know your
address.


You're right on the money. The first problem you have if you use a gun
for self defense is are you correct in that judgment. Were you legally
right when you decided to use deadly force? You may have to make that
decision very quickly and without knowing a lot of the facts. Then if
you do use your weapon comes the second guessing by the state. Was it
all legal and proper? Hopefully it was and you aren't prosecuted for
using the weapon when you didn't have the legal right to do it. But even
if you were legally allowed to use the weapon you're not free from civil
liability. The person you shot can sue you even if you were legally in
the right and they may win in court. Last comes the psychological impact
on you that comes from shooting another human being. Some people have no
trouble with this but others are greatly affected by shooting another
person even though they had to. So the truth is it's a hell of a big
responsibility to even have a gun on you. Even more so if you actually
ever use it. Most people never give things like this a thought until its
way too late.

Hawke


An important reason for requiring training to get a CCW is to inform
applicants of these issues. Not all states require training. I
encourage everyone who buys a first handgun to get this training
whether or not they intend to carry or apply for a permit.


I'll ditto that, Don. The classes also hammer it into you that you're
probably not going to be protecting the innocent and saving the world
with your new concealed weapon, that the legal implications of even
_showing_ it can be, shall we say, interesting. Oregon doesn't have a
requirement for hands-on training, so 90% of the class was oral, but
our instructor wanted to be sure that we could all hit a torso-sized
piece of cardboard at 15' with our weapons. We all did, without
problems or too much flinching. The guy standing to the right of my
little 4"-barreled P-11 complained of how loud the little beastie was.
I definitely want hearing protection when I shoot it.


What kind of instructor lets his students on the range without his ears on?



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Default Do TMT's mommies have two Glocks too?

"Chief Egalitarian" fired this volley in
:

What kind of instructor lets his students on the range without his
ears on?


Most of them, unfortunately. I guess they figure that the participants
won't get enough noise over the long run to adversely affect them...
sigh...

On the other subject of "making split-second decisions" about using
deadly force or not: that's a matter of training, too. But it is not
necessarily the sort of training you're going to get from the average CCW
instructor. It involves lots of "mental exercises", planning (yes
_planning_) then mentally and physically practicing what your actions
will be in any *of a lot of* given threatening situations.

I had a very wise hand-to-hand instructor in Riv-Div/Cos-Div training who
told us (in essence), "Your feet are your most effective defensive
weapons. Nobody WINS in hand-to-hand combat, one guy just loses worse
than the other. So USE your feet -- in almost every case by planting one
after the other as fast as you can. Only engage in personal combat when
it's the ONLY option available." Or that gist. Wise man. It paid off
in 'Nam. 100' of separation while armed is a _good_ thing!

LLoyd
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