Here is a warning to us all. The Argentine state is taking control of the
country's privately-managed pension funds in a drastic move to raise cash.

It is a foretaste of what may happen across the world as governments
discover that tax revenue, and discover that the bond markets are unwilling
to plug the gap. The G7 states are already acquiring an unhealthy taste for
the arbitrary seizure of private property.

So, over $29bn of Argentine civic savings are to be used as a funding kitty
for the populist antics of President Cristina Kirchner.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...s_Whos_n ext/

Best Regards

Tom.

This is a very disturbing story.

i

On 2010-04-13, azotic wrote:
Here is a warning to us all. The Argentine state is taking control of the
country's privately-managed pension funds in a drastic move to raise cash.

It is a foretaste of what may happen across the world as governments
discover that tax revenue, and discover that the bond markets are unwilling
to plug the gap. The G7 states are already acquiring an unhealthy taste for
the arbitrary seizure of private property.

So, over $29bn of Argentine civic savings are to be used as a funding kitty
for the populist antics of President Cristina Kirchner.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...s_Whos_n ext/

Best Regards

Tom.

azotic wrote:
Here is a warning to us all. The Argentine state is taking control of the
country's privately-managed pension funds in a drastic move to raise cash.

It is a foretaste of what may happen across the world as governments
discover that tax revenue, and discover that the bond markets are unwilling
to plug the gap. The G7 states are already acquiring an unhealthy taste for
the arbitrary seizure of private property.

So, over $29bn of Argentine civic savings are to be used as a funding kitty
for the populist antics of President Cristina Kirchner.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...s_Whos_n ext/

Best Regards

Tom.



Hmmm. Here in America the usual approach is that multibillion dollar
corporations declare bankruptcy, dump their pension obligations onto the
government for pennies on the dollar, and then emerge fat and happy.
and the CEO gets a big bonus for 'saving' the company.

"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
azotic wrote:
Here is a warning to us all. The Argentine state is taking control of the
country's privately-managed pension funds in a drastic move to raise
cash.

It is a foretaste of what may happen across the world as governments
discover that tax revenue, and discover that the bond markets are
unwilling to plug the gap. The G7 states are already acquiring an
unhealthy taste for the arbitrary seizure of private property.

So, over $29bn of Argentine civic savings are to be used as a funding
kitty for the populist antics of President Cristina Kirchner.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...s_Whos_n ext/

Best Regards

Tom.



Hmmm. Here in America the usual approach is that multibillion dollar
corporations declare bankruptcy, dump their pension obligations onto the
government for pennies on the dollar, and then emerge fat and happy. and
the CEO gets a big bonus for 'saving' the company.

Our progressive government will protect us by requiring all retirement
accounts
can only be invested in the safest securities known to man, US treasury
notes.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:04:28 -0700, "azotic"
wrote:


"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
azotic wrote:
Here is a warning to us all. The Argentine state is taking control of the
country's privately-managed pension funds in a drastic move to raise
cash.

It is a foretaste of what may happen across the world as governments
discover that tax revenue, and discover that the bond markets are
unwilling to plug the gap. The G7 states are already acquiring an
unhealthy taste for the arbitrary seizure of private property.

So, over $29bn of Argentine civic savings are to be used as a funding
kitty for the populist antics of President Cristina Kirchner.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...s_Whos_n ext/

Best Regards

Tom.



Hmmm. Here in America the usual approach is that multibillion dollar
corporations declare bankruptcy, dump their pension obligations onto the
government for pennies on the dollar, and then emerge fat and happy. and
the CEO gets a big bonus for 'saving' the company.

Our progressive government will protect us by requiring all retirement
accounts
can only be invested in the safest securities known to man, US treasury
notes.

Best Regards
Tom.

=========
In the U.S. we have "priate enterprise" and the "free market"...



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/bu...html?src=busln

Quadrangle Group Settles Pension Fund Case
By LOUISE STORY
Published: April 15, 2010

The Quadrangle Group, the private equity firm that was once run
by the Obama administration’s car czar, has agreed to settle a
corruption investigation with Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo’s
office and the Securities and Exchange Commission.

snip
“This case has started a national investigation of public pension
funds all across the nation,” said Mr. Cuomo, the attorney
general of New York State, in a media call. “A significant amount
of this country’s wealth are in these public pension funds and I
fear — seeing what we’ve seen in New York — that it’s going to be
a serious problem for the nation.”

The case is a chapter in a lengthy investigation of kickbacks
paid by investment firms to advisers for the New York state
pension fund. Several investment firms including the Carlyle
Group have already settled related cases. The firms were accused
of paying kickbacks to individuals close to the state’s former
comptroller in order to convince the state to invest pension
money in their funds.
snip
==========

FWIW -- California also has this problem with some of its large
public employee retirement funds.



Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182...e/ftc-vi26.wmv


No comment necessary


Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:52:41 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182...e/ftc-vi26.wmv


No comment necessary


Gunner
===========
You may also like this zinger. Be sure and scan the reader
comments.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010041...cGVuc2 lvbmZ1
GM's Pension: A Ticking Time Bomb for Taxpayers?
By JOSEPH R. SZCZESNY Joseph R. Szczesny – 2 hrs 46 mins ago

General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
company pensions.
snip

It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
from over.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

F. George McDuffee wrote:

General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
company pensions.
snip

It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
from over.

Those retires better husband their money. Reality is going to come home in the next few
years or next administration.

What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare bankruptcy? Government
pension obligations are another ticking timebomb.

Wes

"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Wes wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:

General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
company pensions.
snip

It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
from over.

Those retires better husband their money. Reality is going to come
home in the next few years or next administration.

What reality is that Wes?

When GM can't make its obligations and turns over the pension to PBGC they (workers) will
learn how that guarantee works, just like many that worked for the airlines. Their
benefits they *thought* they secured in the easy days will get trimmed.


What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare
bankruptcy?

Municipalities have been going tits up all over the country for the last
three years or so.

So what happened? Did creditors take over municipal property?


Government pension obligations are another ticking
timebomb.

How's that?

If congress can think about changing the deal on social security they sure can change the
deal on pensions. We just saw raw power exerted from one side of the aisle on health
care. Imagine if it was bipartisan.

People with defined benefits that are not fully funded are in for a suprise.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Wes wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:

General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
company pensions.
snip

It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
from over.

Those retires better husband their money. Reality is going to come
home in the next few years or next administration.

What reality is that Wes?


What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare
bankruptcy?

Municipalities have been going tits up all over the country for the last
three years or so.

Government pension obligations are another ticking
timebomb.

How's that?

--
John R. Carroll

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.

I think this is the story:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.

Best Regards
Tom.

Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Wes wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:

General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
company pensions.
snip

It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
from over.

Those retires better husband their money. Reality is going to come
home in the next few years or next administration.

What reality is that Wes?

When GM can't make its obligations and turns over the pension to PBGC
they (workers) will learn how that guarantee works, just like many
that worked for the airlines. Their benefits they *thought* they
secured in the easy days will get trimmed.

I don't think that will come as any surprise to anyone, including retirees.



What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare
bankruptcy?

Municipalities have been going tits up all over the country for the
last three years or so.

So what happened? Did creditors take over municipal property?

It depends.
Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in jail.

Anyway, here is a decent answer to your question. The number of BK's cited
is much, much larger today than in 2008 when this was written.

We know that individuals and corporations can declare bankruptcy, but entire
cities?

That is exactly what officials in Vallejo, Calif., are contemplating. And
they are not alone. There's a long and sad history of municipalities
declaring bankruptcy. Here's a look at how these places got into hot water -
and what life is like for residents of a bankrupt town.

Why do cities and towns declare bankruptcy?

For the same reason that individuals and corporations do. They're broke and
can't pay their debts. This might be because of an unexpected expense - say,
a costly lawsuit - or a sudden shortfall in revenue, due to falling property
values, for instance. Either way, declaring bankruptcy protects cities and
towns from their creditors, just as it does for individuals and
corporations. (In Vallejo's case, bankruptcy offers another benefit: It
would allow the city to renegotiate costly labor contracts with
public-safety employees, which reportedly account for about 80 percent of
the city's general fund budget.)

The one main difference: Municipalities can't liquidate assets to pay off
their creditors - the mayor can't sell the town fire engine to pay the bank.

Have municipalities always been able to declare bankruptcy?

No. For most of U.S. history, cities and towns were not eligible for
bankruptcy protection. But during the Great Depression, more than 2,000
municipalities defaulted on their debt, and they pleaded with President
Roosevelt for a federal bailout. "All they got was sympathy," reported Time
magazine in 1933. Instead, Roosevelt pushed through changes to the
bankruptcy laws that allow towns and cities to file for bankruptcy. They
even got their own section of the bankruptcy code: Chapter Nine.

How many municipalities have sought bankruptcy protection?

Since 1980, 32 cities and towns have declared bankruptcy, according to James
Spiotta, a leading municipal bankruptcy lawyer. Most notable of these were
Bridgeport, Conn., population 140,000, which declared bankruptcy in 1991.
And, in the nation's biggest municipal bankruptcy, Orange County, Calif.,
sought protection from its creditors in 1994 after city officials made a
series of bad investments.

What is life like in a "bankrupt" city or town?

In one sense, life goes on as usual. Police and fire departments still
respond to 911 calls; the garbage is still collected. But don't expect that
new bridge or school to be built. For a bankrupt city, all new projects must
be approved by a majority of creditors. The biggest hit, though, is to the
city's image. Bankruptcy carries a much greater stigma for a city than for a
corporation, which is why officials go to great lengths to avoid Chapter
Nine.

If a city or town declares bankruptcy, does it affect others nearby?

Yes. Surrounding cities and towns can find it harder to borrow money for new
projects because investors - who buy and sell bonds - will question their
financial viability. That's why states often intervene to prop up a
faltering municipality and avoid the sting of bankruptcy. Sometimes all it
takes for a town or city to get help from the state capital is the mere
threat of bankruptcy. "It's an instrument of getting attention and getting
others to help you," Spiotta says.

What about New York City? Didn't it declare bankruptcy in the 1970s?

No, but it came close. The city was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy in
1975 when it appealed to Washington for a bailout. President Ford balked,
prompting the famous Daily News headline "Ford to City: Drop Dead." (Ford
never actually uttered those exact words.) In the end, Congress did pony up
some money for New York, and the city formed the Municipal Assistance
Corp. - a quasi-government body that, in effect, allowed New York to lend
money to itself. Other big cities - Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Miami - have
flirted with bankruptcy in recent decades but not actually declared it.

Are we likely to see more towns and cities declare bankruptcy in the future?

That's difficult to say, but some experts believe the warning signs are
clear: unfunded pension liabilities, an anemic economy, costly
infrastructure repairs and falling property values. "All of the ingredients
are there," Spiotta says. "I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see more
bankruptcies."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=60740288



Government pension obligations are another ticking
timebomb.

How's that?

If congress can think about changing the deal on social security they
sure can change the deal on pensions.

I'm not sure Congress has considered "changing the deal" on SS.
I'm not aware of such an effort anyway. AFAIK, there has never been a real,
serious or considered effort to do anything but collect more money.

"The Deal" is that benefit payments can't be greater than the sum of cash on
hand and revenues, something that hasn't changed - ever.

We just saw raw power exerted
from one side of the aisle on health care. Imagine if it was
bipartisan.

People with defined benefits that are not fully funded are in for a
suprise.

Again, I don't think they will be surprised at all. They certainly shouldn't
be.
The people getting the surprise will be their family members who will have
to step up and make ends meet.

--
John R. Carroll

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:38:08 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:52:41 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182...e/ftc-vi26.wmv


No comment necessary


Gunner
===========
You may also like this zinger. Be sure and scan the reader
comments.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010041...cGVuc2 lvbmZ1
GM's Pension: A Ticking Time Bomb for Taxpayers?
By JOSEPH R. SZCZESNY Joseph R. Szczesny – 2 hrs 46 mins ago

General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
company pensions.
snip

It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
from over.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).


I rather liked this comment...

"In theory, a union is a good idea. In practice, it creates a mob-run
special interest group."

Very true too.


Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:59:10 -0700, "azotic" wrote:


"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.

I think this is the story:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.

Best Regards
Tom.


GAAAAACK!!!!

Oh those poor *******s.

Sigh

Gunner






"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

In my humble opinion, no pension fund that is guaranteed by the
government, should be allowed to assume expected returns about 2% over
inflation, for the purposes of determining adequacy of reserves. (and
similar rules need to be introduced in GAAP).

i

azotic wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and
their new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up
in jail.

I think this is the story:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.


That was it.

--
John R. Carroll

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:51:39 -0400, Wes
wrote:
snip
What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare bankruptcy? Government
pension obligations are another ticking timebomb.
snip

Indeed and the ticking is getting louder.

I am not an attorney, but under current law, counties and
municipalities can indeed declare bankruptcy under title/chapter
9 of the bankruptcy code, and several have done so, e.g. Orange
County California.
http://www.uscourts.gov/bankruptcyco.../chapter9.html
http://www.la-par.org/Publications/P...Bankruptcy.pdf

Note that some states have enacted legislation preventing their
counties and municipalities from declaring bankruptcy without the
permission of the legislature [which is never given].

It does not appear under current law that a state can use the
bankruptcy process as these are legally sovereign, albeit
subordinated to the Federal government, although this is subject
to change with the stroke of a pen on a judicial decree. Another
possible outcome would be a change in the name of the process
from bankruptcy to conservatorship, ala the GSE operations such
as Fannie and Freddie, which may avoid triggering the CDS
derivatives.

The major problem is that the bankruptcy process was never
intended to "fix the problem," for local governments but rather
to provide some "breathing room" while a solution was devised and
implemented. There appears to be no provision for some sort of
chapter 7 liquidation of a governmental entity with total removal
of existing officials and employees, seizure of assets,
abrogation of contracts, etc. so the problems simply continue to
fester and grow, even with a debt repayment "time out." Detroit
Michigan, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania are examples.

The base problem appears to be the continual evasion of [state]
constitutional prohibitions on running a deficit, and the total
denial by the politicians, functionaries and apparatchiks of the
fact that the money to sustain, what they perceive as, critical
and necessary public spending is simply not there and in fact
never was.

This is not a "new" problem, but one that dates back to at least
the 1970s with the deindustrilization and [productive] population
loss of the affected areas. Again, Detroit is a poster child. In
the early 60s Detroit had a population in excess of 2 million,
with considerable productive [tax paying] industry. Currently
the population is less than 800,000 [and falling] and [most]
industry has left, yet municipal Detroit is attempting to
maintain the same numbers of police, fire, school teachers,
governmental administrators, existing governmental programs,
pensions, etc. It can't be done.

It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
and "looted" just like the private pension plans.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:16:26 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in jail.
==========
Among others see Harrisburg PA.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-correct-.html

snip
The $68 million in debt service payments that Harrisburg faces in
connection with the construction of a waste incinerator this year
is four times what the city of 47,000 expects to raise through
property taxes, and $4 million more than the city’s entire
proposed operating budget.
snip

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...mTpygD9F11AT80
Incinerator project burns up Pa. capital's cash

By MARC LEVY (AP) – 4 days ago

HARRISBURG, Pa. — This capital city was near total collapse three
decades ago — its department stores, theaters and trolleys were
gone, replaced by vacant buildings and streets devoid of any
nightlife.

A huge effort, thanks partly to an energetic mayor, brought the
Susquehanna River city of 47,000 back from the brink. Today,
professionals and state office workers pack the restaurants,
hotels and arts venues that helped restore its respectability.

Along the way, city leaders thought they could transform their
aging, debt-laden trash incinerator into a clean, efficient
moneymaker. But costs exploded and massive debt payments due this
year on the incinerator threaten to drag the city into
bankruptcy.
snip
Some residents wonder whether fear of a huge property tax hike to
help pay down the $280-plus million in debt tied to the
incinerator will spur a rash of "for-sale" signs just as the city
had hoped to end a 60-year population slide.

"We're in trouble," said Bill Cluck, an environmental and
land-use lawyer who lives in Harrisburg and closely monitors city
affairs. "If you can get out of the city, get out of the city.
That's the perception."

Harrisburg's bad credit rating, in part, reflects the stretched
finances of a city devastated by the loss of its heavy
manufacturing core. Almost half its property is tax-exempt and
more than a quarter of its families live in poverty, nearly three
times the national rate, census figures show.

Bad spending decisions are synonymous with Harrisburg's recent
history. Former Mayor Stephen Reed was sharply criticized for
secretly spending millions of dollars in public money on such
artifacts as an Egyptian mummy and a bright red Wells Fargo & Co.
stagecoach for museums that never got built.

The trash incinerator began operating in view of a large housing
project on the city's industrial southern edge in 1972, one of
scores of incinerators built across the country in the last 40
years. It first generated steam heat for steel mills and downtown
office buildings and in the 1980s, it began generating
electricity.

But it also spewed cancer-causing dioxins into the air, and
pressure from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency led to the
plant's shutdown in 2003. It didn't become fully operational
again until 2008, after the costly overhaul.

The incinerator still isn't making money, even with city
residents paying some of the highest trash disposal fees in the
country.

With its hands tied by a stagnant tax base even before the
recession, Harrisburg faces debt payments on the incinerator this
year of $68 million, larger than the city's entire operating
budget. Little to no money in the city's budget is set aside for
the debt, which includes millions of dollars coming due in the
next two months.
snip


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Apr 15, 8:59*pm, "azotic" wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in ...

Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.

I think this is the story:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...ting_main_stre...

A very intresting read.

Best Regards
Tom.

Hopefully this is recalled and remembered every time some retard
screams that all regulation is bad, and anti-capitalist.


Dave

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 02:32:57 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
scrawled the following:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:51:39 -0400, Wes
wrote:
snip
What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare bankruptcy? Government
pension obligations are another ticking timebomb.
snip

Indeed and the ticking is getting louder.

It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
and "looted" just like the private pension plans.

And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.

--
STOP THE SLAUGHTER! Boycott Baby Oil!

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:58:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
and "looted" just like the private pension plans.

And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.
snip
=============

While this would offer a large amount of satisfaction to many
people, in the overall scheme of things, this would accomplish
nothing, in that the basic/foundational problem of spending
[promising] more than the [falling] governmental income can
possibly cover is not addressed.

It is well to remember that the responsibility/accountability for
this problem has become so diffused that no one, other than
possibly some long-term elected officials and the scam artists
who work with them, can be held personally accountable.

It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."

It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
governmental units by both land area and population.

One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).

It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
and make the bidding process much easier.


When pigs fly....


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Apr 16, 9:58*am, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 02:32:57 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
scrawled the following:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:51:39 -0400, Wes
wrote:
snip
What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare bankruptcy? Government
pension obligations are another ticking timebomb.
snip

Indeed and the ticking is getting louder. *
It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
least up to the PBGC limits. *It all depends how the state/local
governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
and "looted" just like the private pension plans.

And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. *Interesting.

--
* STOP THE SLAUGHTER! *Boycott Baby Oil!

Are you kidding? One of the guys who helped cause the meltdown is
running in NY against Gillabrand.
He'll probably win, too.


Dave

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:58:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
and "looted" just like the private pension plans.

And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.
snip
=============

While this would offer a large amount of satisfaction to many
people,

I think the number is nearly zero George.
It's the blowhard talking point of cowards everywhere.


It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."

A construct with a purpose.


It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
governmental units by both land area and population.

One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).

Something already done with failed school systems.
Interesting.


It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
and make the bidding process much easier.

Defined benefit pension plans outside of the government ought to just be
illegal.
The basic flaw is in the belief or assumption that just because a
corporation CAN be around to fulfill it's pension obligations that it will
be. Corporations evolve, are bought and sold and are sometimes subsumed to
the benefit of the shareholders, not employees.
Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
interests of government in our own society are whatever the interests of the
people are. That's by definition.

Defined contribution certainly has it's flaws but those flaws don't include
the expectation by the contributors of invincibility.
Conversations such as these are the beginings of a discussion of government
run pension plans that anyone, or everyone, participates in.
That's the only way to do defined benefit.

--
John R. Carroll

F. George McDuffee wrote:

It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."

I bet Gunner would agree with that.

It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
governmental units by both land area and population.

Now there's an idea worth followup.
I don't know of any government with such limitations.

One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).

It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
and make the bidding process much easier.


When pigs fly....

Indeed

Dave__67 wrote:
Are you kidding? One of the guys who helped cause the meltdown is
running in NY against Gillabrand.
He'll probably win, too.

Not likely.
Malpass hasn't really got much of a chance, at least in my opinion.
Hillary Clinton and the Pelosi girls club will see to it.


--
John R. Carroll

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:26:47 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

snip
Defined benefit pension plans outside of the government ought to just be
illegal.
The basic flaw is in the belief or assumption that just because a
corporation CAN be around to fulfill it's pension obligations that it will
be. Corporations evolve, are bought and sold and are sometimes subsumed to
the benefit of the shareholders, not employees.
Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
interests of government in our own society are whatever the interests of the
people are. That's by definition.

Defined contribution certainly has it's flaws but those flaws don't include
the expectation by the contributors of invincibility.
Conversations such as these are the beginings of a discussion of government
run pension plans that anyone, or everyone, participates in.
That's the only way to do defined benefit.
snip

It continues to amaze me that corporations and government units
contend they can do a better job of money management with
part-time amateur help, political appointees, and minimal to no
[use of] actuarial capabilities/techniques, than the dedicated
insurance companies can do with their professional staffs,
economies of scale, and generations of experience.

One possible way around these problems is to eliminate the
employer controlled pension plans by mandating the purchase of an
annuity policy to cover the defined benefits from a well rated
insurance company when a pension vests, with annual updates to
the policy as additional benefits accrue. Historically,
well-rated insurance companies have been closely regulated, with
minimal losses. This also allows easy pension portability when
changing employers, i.e. the annuity policy is owned by the
covered employee, not the employer.

As this removes control of the money from the
employer/governmental unit, eliminates large numbers of
patronage/sinecure positions, reduces skimming opportunities, and
obliterates the fantasy of low cost financing, this will never
occur.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Apr 16, 2:51*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us

One possible way around these problems is to eliminate the
employer controlled pension plans by mandating the purchase of an
annuity policy to cover the defined benefits from a well rated
insurance company when a pension vests, with annual updates to
the policy as additional benefits accrue.

Unka George *(George McDuffee)

Where in the Constitution is there anything that says the U. S.
Government can mandate that individuals purchase anything. Is it
legal for the government to require you to purchase hamburgers from
McDonalds? McDonalds is a well rated company.

Dan

" wrote in news:8fd9e822-3466-4411-8e36-
:


Where in the Constitution is there anything that says the U. S.
Government can mandate that individuals purchase anything. Is it
legal for the government to require you to purchase hamburgers from
McDonalds? McDonalds is a well rated company.


Q. What do you find under the Golden Arches?
A. The clown's dirty socks.

McDonalds doesn't sell food - they sell fun! (Part of the fun is trying to
find something even partly edible while getting the Rug Rats their toys.)

"azotic" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.

I think this is the story:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.


Sure was. If the story was true, there should be a RICO prosecution of the bank.

Wes

"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
interests of government in our own society are whatever the interests of the
people are. That's by definition.

I believe the Tea Party would disagree.

Wes

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:26:47 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

snip
Defined benefit pension plans outside of the government ought to
just be illegal.
The basic flaw is in the belief or assumption that just because a
corporation CAN be around to fulfill it's pension obligations that
it will be. Corporations evolve, are bought and sold and are
sometimes subsumed to the benefit of the shareholders, not employees.
Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
interests of government in our own society are whatever the
interests of the people are. That's by definition.

Defined contribution certainly has it's flaws but those flaws don't
include the expectation by the contributors of invincibility.
Conversations such as these are the beginings of a discussion of
government run pension plans that anyone, or everyone, participates
in.
That's the only way to do defined benefit.
snip

It continues to amaze me that corporations and government units
contend they can do a better job of money management with
part-time amateur help, political appointees, and minimal to no
[use of] actuarial capabilities/techniques, than the dedicated
insurance companies can do with their professional staffs,
economies of scale, and generations of experience.

There is no shortage of excellent actuaries in government.


One possible way around these problems is to eliminate the
employer controlled pension plans by mandating the purchase of an
annuity policy to cover the defined benefits from a well rated
insurance company when a pension vests, with annual updates to
the policy as additional benefits accrue. Historically,
well-rated insurance companies have been closely regulated, with
minimal losses. This also allows easy pension portability when
changing employers, i.e. the annuity policy is owned by the
covered employee, not the employer.

I don't care for the necessity of purchasing such things from an insurance
company.
Once you reach a certain threshold, it makes sense to hire a staff and do
everything yourself.
I think I'd probably advocate for a government old age pension benefit if
the benefit were defined.
No matter what happens, the government will end up directly participating
anyway.
Just look at the financial services business today.


As this removes control of the money from the
employer/governmental unit, eliminates large numbers of
patronage/sinecure positions, reduces skimming opportunities, and
obliterates the fantasy of low cost financing, this will never
occur.

This will all depend on how the health-care reform works out.
Should America end up with a good, affordable single payer system, the next
up will be pensions.


--
John R. Carroll

"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
interests of government in our own society are whatever the
interests of the people are. That's by definition.

I believe the Tea Party would disagree.

They'd agree completely Wes, and wouldn't exist if they didn't.


No, they exist because government isn't responding to a significant part of the
populations interests. When you see mostly conservative types out protesting, it is a
clue that government is on the wrong track. It is the left that likes to protest at the
drop of a hat on any issue. My uncle, 68 years of age went to a tea party event, his
first time ever at a protest. I had to work, it could have been a twofer.

Wes

Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
interests of government in our own society are whatever the
interests of the people are. That's by definition.

I believe the Tea Party would disagree.

They'd agree completely Wes, and wouldn't exist if they didn't.



--
John R. Carroll

Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
interests of government in our own society are whatever the
interests of the people are. That's by definition.

I believe the Tea Party would disagree.

They'd agree completely Wes, and wouldn't exist if they didn't.


No, they exist because government isn't responding to a significant
part of the populations interests.

They exist because they think getting organized and changing the result at
the polls is doable.
They are mad because they are out of power and what is getting done isn't
what THEY want done.
Anytime the tea baggers want to draw a weapon to make changes, they'll end
up either dead or in jail.

We had an election Wes, several actually. The winners are carrying out the
agenda they ran on and they are doing it within the limits of what is
possible using the tools our government and the law provide. Statements to
the contrary, and there are a lot of those, are idiocy.
That idiocy can be tested in the Courts.

When you see mostly conservative
types out protesting, it is a clue that government is on the wrong
track.

America has never been, isn't now, and probably never will be a country of
angry white men.
Not for long anyway.
That is what the Tea Party is. That and a revenue stream.


It is the left that likes to protest at the drop of a hat on
any issue. My uncle, 68 years of age went to a tea party event, his
first time ever at a protest. I had to work, it could have been a
twofer.

I wish you could have gone. It would have affirmed, just like the rest of
the T.P.er's do, that you believe our government really does work. That
isn't what anyone says of course, but actions speak louder than words.

Believe me Wes, I hear this stupid **** out here in California every day.
"Government doesn't work", "The peoples will is being subverted", Blah Blah
Blah. My answer, which you well know, is that it's lazy assed **** poor
voters that are the problem.

There is not now, nor will there ever be, a substitute for a well informed,
well educated and actively involved electorate.
Period.

--
John R. Carroll

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"azotic" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.

I think this is the story:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.


Sure was. If the story was true, there should be a RICO prosecution of
the bank.

Wes

Wes, that's banks doing bank business. That's what freewheeling competition
in the financial industry breeds. It's another case of market failure.

And Matt Taibbi, as much as I love his writing, sometimes runs a little over
the top with his interpretations of the facts. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message
...
"azotic" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and
their new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams
(all legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end
up in jail.

I think this is the story:


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.


Sure was. If the story was true, there should be a RICO prosecution
of the bank.

Wes

Wes, that's banks doing bank business. That's what freewheeling
competition in the financial industry breeds. It's another case of
market failure.

And Matt Taibbi, as much as I love his writing, sometimes runs a
little over the top with his interpretations of the facts. d8-)

Hey Ed.
Pretty funny that 41 Republican's sent off their anti-reform letter on the
same day Goldman got popped don't you think.

Yeah, this is shaping up pretty good. At the very least, the take-home story
will be that this is just a financial firm doing business -- nothing out of
the ordinary. In other words, their real business is fraud. The whole
industry is one big confidence game.

The letter preceded the indictment by a couple of hours.
I laughed so hard thinking of how Boehner, and especially McConnell, were
probably cursing everything in sight I nearly peed my pants.
You couldn't make this stuff up.

The story has become so absurd, so far beyond belief, that it's become a
farce. Where's Bozo when we really need him?

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in news:4bc92465$0$31279
:

The story has become so absurd, so far beyond belief, that it's become a
farce. Where's Bozo when we really need him?

He's cooking at a McDonalds...

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message
...
"azotic" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and
their new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams
(all legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end
up in jail.

I think this is the story:


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.


Sure was. If the story was true, there should be a RICO prosecution
of the bank.

Wes

Wes, that's banks doing bank business. That's what freewheeling
competition in the financial industry breeds. It's another case of
market failure.

And Matt Taibbi, as much as I love his writing, sometimes runs a
little over the top with his interpretations of the facts. d8-)

Hey Ed.
Pretty funny that 41 Republican's sent off their anti-reform letter on the
same day Goldman got popped don't you think.
The letter preceded the indictment by a couple of hours.
I laughed so hard thinking of how Boehner, and especially McConnell, were
probably cursing everything in sight I nearly peed my pants.
You couldn't make this stuff up.

--
John R. Carroll

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message
...
"azotic" wrote:

Hey Ed.
Pretty funny that 41 Republican's sent off their anti-reform letter
on the same day Goldman got popped don't you think.

Yeah, this is shaping up pretty good. At the very least, the
take-home story will be that this is just a financial firm doing
business -- nothing out of the ordinary. In other words, their real
business is fraud. The whole industry is one big confidence game.

And this one is exceptionally easy to explain. You don't have to understand
anything about the industry or it's terminology.


The letter preceded the indictment by a couple of hours.
I laughed so hard thinking of how Boehner, and especially McConnell,
were probably cursing everything in sight I nearly peed my pants.
You couldn't make this stuff up.

The story has become so absurd, so far beyond belief, that it's
become a farce. Where's Bozo when we really need him?

He's changed his name to John McCain and is about to loose a closed primary
courtesy of his sudden lack of "Maverickyness" and the pee party.

McCain has always needed the moderates to win and he'd have had them in the
general but by closing the AZ primary, Republican's might have cost
themselves a power in the Senate. I don't actually thing a lot of Arizonan's
are fond of McCain anyway.

I can understand the Republican party honcho's forgetting Anderson ( not
really but hey) It's unfathomable to me that they have forgotten that the
only reason W. got to the oval was Ralph Nader. Had Nader not taken 95,000
votes from Gore in Florida, the Supreme Court wouldn't have been able to
appoint Bush.


--
John R. Carroll

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:06:08 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
scrawled the following:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:58:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
and "looted" just like the private pension plans.

And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.
snip
=============

While this would offer a large amount of satisfaction to many
people, in the overall scheme of things, this would accomplish
nothing, in that the basic/foundational problem of spending
[promising] more than the [falling] governmental income can
possibly cover is not addressed.

Are you sure, Unk? the replacement folks might be a bit more polite
to the public in their fiscal actions.


It is well to remember that the responsibility/accountability for
this problem has become so diffused that no one, other than
possibly some long-term elected officials and the scam artists
who work with them, can be held personally accountable.

Govvy members 1-525 sign bill, Govvy members 1-525 are responsible.
The O assigns Cabinet Member 1-5, all of whom cheat on their taxes.
All 6 are guilty of something. Period. It ain't rocket science, Unk.


It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."

Ooh, don't say that. shiver


It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
governmental units by both land area and population.

Absolutely.


One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).

"Who to hang" audits, wot?


It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
and make the bidding process much easier.

They could also do away with highest possible union member (maximum
possible spending) on wages for every public job. I'd have to hire
people (laborers!) at twice -my- going rate to do any govvy
construction jobs because some useless Union idiot in Portland is
making that.


When pigs fly....

After Gunner's Cull?

---
A book burrows into your life in a very profound way
because the experience of reading is not passive.
--Erica Jong