On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 22:47:34 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:06:08 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
scrawled the following:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:58:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
and "looted" just like the private pension plans.

And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.
snip
=============

While this would offer a large amount of satisfaction to many
people, in the overall scheme of things, this would accomplish
nothing, in that the basic/foundational problem of spending
[promising] more than the [falling] governmental income can
possibly cover is not addressed.

Are you sure, Unk? the replacement folks might be a bit more polite
to the public in their fiscal actions.


It is well to remember that the responsibility/accountability for
this problem has become so diffused that no one, other than
possibly some long-term elected officials and the scam artists
who work with them, can be held personally accountable.

Govvy members 1-525 sign bill, Govvy members 1-525 are responsible.
The O assigns Cabinet Member 1-5, all of whom cheat on their taxes.
All 6 are guilty of something. Period. It ain't rocket science, Unk.


It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."

Ooh, don't say that. shiver


It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
governmental units by both land area and population.

Absolutely.


One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).

"Who to hang" audits, wot?


It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
and make the bidding process much easier.

They could also do away with highest possible union member (maximum
possible spending) on wages for every public job. I'd have to hire
people (laborers!) at twice -my- going rate to do any govvy
construction jobs because some useless Union idiot in Portland is
making that.


When pigs fly....

After Gunner's Cull?

There will be many job openings then.

At least for dozer operators.

VBG

Gunner


---
A book burrows into your life in a very profound way
because the experience of reading is not passive.
--Erica Jong


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:46:51 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 22:47:34 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:06:08 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
scrawled the following:

When pigs fly....

After Gunner's Cull?

There will be many job openings then.

At least for dozer operators.

VBG

And quicklime plant workers, ah reckon?

---
A book burrows into your life in a very profound way
because the experience of reading is not passive.
--Erica Jong

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 22:47:34 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).

"Who to hang" audits, wot?
snip
=========
While this is one possible outcome, the intention is to determine
what went wrong, not who did wrong.

As it stands, all we know for sure from the available information
is that something has and is going very wrong. It appears
astrologers make poor investment advisors [ala Orange county,
California]. It should be noted that the astrologers involved
may have been very good astrologers, and very good moral people,
but the results were still a disaster, so better and/or more
moral astrologers is most likely not the answer, nor would tarot
readers be any better.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=5326,5062430
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6526,5240309
http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws25.htm

To be sure, it appears that the reason(s) are obvious, but this
is unavoidably filtered through ideological lenses. The fact
this keeps occurring indicates that either the actual causes have
not been identified and/or the correct legal prohibitions,
proscriptions and prescriptions have not yet been enacted and/or
enforced.

An analogy is public health. Until the causes of the pandemics
were identified [germ theory of disease] and basic changes made,
e.g. the public supply of safe drinking water, sanatation/trash
removal and pure food laws, the "morality" of the people involved
had little to no effect.



Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 06:23:34 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:46:51 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 22:47:34 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:06:08 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
scrawled the following:

When pigs fly....

After Gunner's Cull?

There will be many job openings then.

At least for dozer operators.

VBG

And quicklime plant workers, ah reckon?

Nah...simply put em into the ground with a dozer, bury em deep and in
only a few years...the trees and grass and flowers are bright and tall
and pretty.

Quicklime tends to prevent proper plant growth.

Gunner


---
A book burrows into your life in a very profound way
because the experience of reading is not passive.
--Erica Jong


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:16:26 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in jail.
snip
============
This appears to be a worldwide phonomania.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...ZKX1WJo&pos=15

snip
April 15 (Bloomberg) -- The worst global financial crisis in 70
years arrived in Saint-Etienne this month, as embedded financial
obligations began to blow up.

A bill came due for 1.18 million euros ($1.61 million) owed to
Deutsche Bank AG under a contract that initially saved the French
city money. The 800-year-old town refused to pay, dodging for now
one of 10 derivatives so speculative no bank will buy them back,
said Cedric Grail, the municipal finance director. They would
cost about 100 million euros to cancel today, he said.

“It’s a joke that we’re in markets like this,” said Grail, 38,
from the 19th-century city hall fronted by an arched facade and
the words Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite. “We’re playing the dollar
against the Swiss franc until 2042.”
snip
===========

FWIW -- history appears to be repeating itself. The great
depression occurred in 2 waves in the United States. First there
was the bursting of the domestic stock market bubble, and then as
recovery from this was starting, the international finance bubble
burst, starting with the default of a number of municipal bonds
in Germany (largely sold because of the U.S. Dawes and Young
plans) which exposed the entire global flim-flam and toppled the
world's financial structure, which in many cases did not recover
until after WW2. Indeed, the case can be made the global
financial structure never "recovered," but rather the weaker
participants simply died off, much as the bubonic plagues in
Europe ended when everyone susceptible to the plague had died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Plan
snip
The Dawes Plan did rely on money given to Germany by the US. The
German economic state was one in which careful footing was
required, and the Dawes plan was of the nature that only with the
unrelated help of loans from the US could it succeed.
snip
The Dawes Plan provided short term economic benefits to the
German economy. It softened the burdens of war reparations,
stabilized the currency, and brought increased foreign
investments and loans to the German market. However, it made the
German economy dependent on foreign markets and economies, and
therefore problems with the U.S. economy (e.g. the Great
Depression) would later severely hurt Germany as it did the rest
of the western world, which was subject to debt repayments for
loans of American dollars.

After World War I, this cycle of money from U.S. loans to
Germany, which then made reparations to other European nations,
which then used the money to pay off their debts to America,
locked the western world's economy on that of the U.S.
snip


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Plan


and a new word for most of us -- disaccumulation [first cousin to
deflation, which may morph into deaccumulation].

http://hnn.us/articles/43038.html {written 09-24-07}
snip
Ahem. Accumulation of capital happens insofar as any increase in
goods production and labor productivity—in a word,
growth—requires net additions to the capital stock and the labor
force, as in the period 1800-1920. Disaccumulation happens when
economic growth occurs without these additions, and indeed
proceeds as a function of declining net investment, as in the
period 1920-present. There, I said it.

Declining net investment? How so? Gross investment is composed
of replacement and maintenance of the existing capital stock,
plus net additions to the capital stock. Disaccumulation happens
when the mere replacement and maintenance of that capital stock
is sufficient to fuel economic growth on an astonishing scale.

Now, the implications are pretty weird. On the one hand, human
labor is extricated from the goods-productions process. The
horizon of socially necessary labor recedes, and the class
position once enacted by the industrial proletariat becomes
increasingly difficult to articulate. So class consciousness
gives way to other forms of identity in the 1920s and after. On
the other hand, the deferral of consumption, which presupposes
increased savings, is no longer the condition of increased
production—of growth. Consumption now becomes the condition of
growth because net investment becomes unnecessary.

And so the deferral of gratification—saving for a rainy day—leads
to economic crisis. Uh oh. As Stuart Chase exclaimed in 1934,
“a whole moral fabric is thus rent and torn.”

The Great Depression of the 1930s was the first crisis caused by
the disaccumulation of capital. In the 1920s, consumer
durables—automobiles, sure, but also radios, vacuum cleaners,
refrigerators—were already the key to growth, the new “industrial
blocs” that substituted for saving and thus offset declining net
investment. And already they were financed with the
extraordinary novelty of consumer credit, or “installment debt,”
which tripled in the decade (consumer debt on car payments
meanwhile increased 500%, as individual savings fell by half).

At the same moment, in the industrial sector, capital costs were
declining rapidly even as productivity was increasing sharply.
Just one example. In oil refining, straight-run distillation of
petroleum was replaced by “continuous thermal cracking” in the
1920s. The new process quadrupled the yield of gasoline per
barrel of crude, and yet cut refinery construction costs in half.

Similar innovation happened elsewhere in manufacturing,
particularly in the automobile industry, with two results.
First, the replacement and maintenance of the existing capital
stock were more than enough to increase productivity and output;
in other words, net investment was unnecessary to fuel fantastic
growth (64% increase in output for the decade). Second, the
labor force engaged in goods production—manufacturing,
construction, transportation—declined absolutely, not relatively,
by about 1 million.

No wonder labor’s share of national income was falling
precipitously as corporate profits soared after 1922 (an increase
of 62%). A shift to profits coincided with declining capital
requirements in goods production—that is, with a shrinking field
of remunerative outlets for domestic investment, and, for that
matter, foreign investment (most of the Eurasian land mass was
off limits to private enterprise in the 1920s due to revolutions,
civil wars, radical social movements, or Herbert Hoover’s rulings
at the Department of Commerce). That is why these profits, this
surplus capital, flooded the stock market, especially after 1926,
and fed into “high-end” consumption as well.

Meanwhile, the income required to buy the increasing output of
“low-end” consumer durables—the income now required to sustain
growth as such—was declining as a consequence of the same shift
to profits. That is why automobile sales and residential
construction stalled after 1926. And that is why Paul Krugman is
wrong to claim, in 2007, that “America has never before
experienced a disconnect between overall economic performance and
the fortunes of workers as complete as the last four years.” A
very similar disconnect happened between 1926 and 1929.

It was a perfect storm. The stock market bubble of the
late-1920s and the financial crisis of 1929 were not random
events unrelated to the “real economy.” They were the immediate
results of the disaccumulation of capital, which disallowed
growth via increasing domestic investment and thus forced higher
profits into the stock market— there was no place else to put it,
unless you wanted to buy German municipal bonds or Peruvian
consuls or Florida real estate, each a kind of risky foreign
investment.

Fast forward to our own time. The housing bubble was the
inevitable result of a savings glut that had no promising outlets
except “securitized” (bundled) mortgages underwritten not by
consumers’ income but by consumers’ debt. The surplus capital
accumulated by corporations could not, in other words, be
converted into “investment” except as a bet on rising prices in
the housing market, which presupposed miraculous increases either
in consumers’ income or consumers’ debt. There was no place else
to put it.
snip


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message
...
"azotic" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.
I think this is the story:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.

Sure was. If the story was true, there should be a RICO prosecution of
the bank.

Wes

Wes, that's banks doing bank business. That's what freewheeling competition
in the financial industry breeds. It's another case of market failure.

And Matt Taibbi, as much as I love his writing, sometimes runs a little over
the top with his interpretations of the facts. d8-)


Ed, as far as financial journalism goes, have you followed the NPR "This
American Life" / "Planet Money" Team reports about the crisis?

Of particular note were "giant pool of money"
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...-Pool-of-Money

Another Frightening Show About the Economy
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...ut-the-Economy

Bad bank
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...e/375/bad-bank

The watchmen
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...2/The-Watchmen

And last weeks joint story with Pro publica on Magnetar
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...405/inside-job

These guys seem to be doing a very thorough autopsy on what actually
happened, and not looking for the easiest scapegoats.

"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message
...
"azotic" wrote:

There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and
their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.
I think this is the story:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._main_street/1


A very intresting read.

Sure was. If the story was true, there should be a RICO prosecution of
the bank.

Wes

Wes, that's banks doing bank business. That's what freewheeling
competition in the financial industry breeds. It's another case of market
failure.

And Matt Taibbi, as much as I love his writing, sometimes runs a little
over the top with his interpretations of the facts. d8-)


Ed, as far as financial journalism goes, have you followed the NPR "This
American Life" / "Planet Money" Team reports about the crisis?

Of particular note were "giant pool of money"
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...-Pool-of-Money

Another Frightening Show About the Economy
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...ut-the-Economy

Bad bank
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...e/375/bad-bank

The watchmen
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...2/The-Watchmen

And last weeks joint story with Pro publica on Magnetar
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...405/inside-job

These guys seem to be doing a very thorough autopsy on what actually
happened, and not looking for the easiest scapegoats.

They are, and I've seen a couple of them, but I just haven't had time to
keep up. Thanks for reminding me, though. I'll try to catch up with them
online.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:19:16 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
It continues to amaze me that corporations and government units
contend they can do a better job of money management with
part-time amateur help, political appointees, and minimal to no
[use of] actuarial capabilities/techniques, than the dedicated
insurance companies can do with their professional staffs,
economies of scale, and generations of experience.

There is no shortage of excellent actuaries in government.
snip
The problem is that while there are many excellent actuaries
in government and industry, when they generate
advice/projections that the elected officials, pension fund
managers, and higher administrators don't like, they are
ignored, and more palatable advice/projections are quickly
obtained from actuarial firms that will tell you what you
want to hear, even if this requires assuming a 15%
compounded ROI, a "raging bull" stock market and the
continued expansion of the real estate bubble.

One example:
http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/11/267...nt-forget.html

In most states, annuity and insurance companies do not have
this option as their actuarial assumptions and calculations
are continually monitored/checked/verified and their
accounts audited by the regulatory agencies. Play fast and
loose in these areas and the regulators will seize the
company.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:19:16 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
It continues to amaze me that corporations and government units
contend they can do a better job of money management with
part-time amateur help, political appointees, and minimal to no
[use of] actuarial capabilities/techniques, than the dedicated
insurance companies can do with their professional staffs,
economies of scale, and generations of experience.

There is no shortage of excellent actuaries in government.
snip
The problem is that while there are many excellent actuaries
in government and industry, when they generate
advice/projections that the elected officials, pension fund
managers, and higher administrators don't like, they are
ignored, and more palatable advice/projections are quickly
obtained from actuarial firms that will tell you what you
want to hear, even if this requires assuming a 15%
compounded ROI, a "raging bull" stock market and the
continued expansion of the real estate bubble.

One example:

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/11/267...nt-forget.html

In most states, annuity and insurance companies do not have
this option as their actuarial assumptions and calculations
are continually monitored/checked/verified and their
accounts audited by the regulatory agencies. Play fast and
loose in these areas and the regulators will seize the
company.

All that means is that voters have got to step up for a change and hold up
their end of the bargain that is America.
Crappy politicians are the result of crappy voters.


--
John R. Carroll

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 02:42:58 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:16:26 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in jail.
==========
Among others see Harrisburg PA.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-correct-.html
snip
========
Update on the Harrisburg soap opera.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ab6OQc35weDI
snip
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which has missed $6 million in
debt payments since Jan. 1, should consider seeking Chapter
9 bankruptcy protection, City Controller Dan Miller told a
three-hour special committee hearing.

Miller, the first of four people to testify last night in an
“informational session” on insolvency convened by Gloria
Martin-Roberts, council president, said bankruptcy may offer
Harrisburg relief from $68 million in debt-service payments
this year tied to a waste-to-energy incinerator project.
snip
Harrisburg, the capital of Pennsylvania, the sixth-most
populous U.S. state, has guaranteed payments on $282 million
in bonds on the incinerator, run by the Harrisburg
Authority. The payments on the bonds and on a
working-capital loan this year add up to four times the
amount the city collects in property taxes each year, budget
documents show.
snip
The city this month skipped a $637,500 payment due on a loan
to Fairfield, New Jersey-based Covanta Holding Corp.,
operator of the incinerator.

Missed Payment

On April 23, the Harrisburg Authority told the city that it
won’t make a $425,282 payment due May 1 on a $17 million
bond issue the city has guaranteed, said Robert Kroboth,
interim finance manager. Kroboth said it isn’t likely that
the city will honor its guarantee, meaning the payment will
fall to the bond’s insurer, Hamilton, Bermuda-based Assured
Guaranty Municipal Corp.
snip
“It’s difficult to get into Chapter 9,” Miller said. He said
Harrisburg would have to present a proposed debt relief plan
to its creditors and get an endorsement from the state
before it could seek bankruptcy.

“You have to meet with the state Department of Economic and
Community Development and convince them you are deserving of
Chapter 9 protection,” Miller said.
snip



Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 02:42:58 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:16:26 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.
==========
Among others see Harrisburg PA.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-correct-.html
snip
========
Update on the Harrisburg soap opera.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ab6OQc35weDI
snip
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which has missed $6 million in
debt payments since Jan. 1, should consider seeking Chapter
9 bankruptcy protection, City Controller Dan Miller told a
three-hour special committee hearing.

Miller, the first of four people to testify last night in an
"informational session" on insolvency convened by Gloria
Martin-Roberts, council president, said bankruptcy may offer
Harrisburg relief from $68 million in debt-service payments
this year tied to a waste-to-energy incinerator project.
snip
Harrisburg, the capital of Pennsylvania, the sixth-most
populous U.S. state, has guaranteed payments on $282 million
in bonds on the incinerator, run by the Harrisburg
Authority. The payments on the bonds and on a
working-capital loan this year add up to four times the
amount the city collects in property taxes each year, budget
documents show.
snip
The city this month skipped a $637,500 payment due on a loan
to Fairfield, New Jersey-based Covanta Holding Corp.,
operator of the incinerator.

Missed Payment

On April 23, the Harrisburg Authority told the city that it
won't make a $425,282 payment due May 1 on a $17 million
bond issue the city has guaranteed, said Robert Kroboth,
interim finance manager. Kroboth said it isn't likely that
the city will honor its guarantee, meaning the payment will
fall to the bond's insurer, Hamilton, Bermuda-based Assured
Guaranty Municipal Corp.
snip
"It's difficult to get into Chapter 9," Miller said. He said
Harrisburg would have to present a proposed debt relief plan
to its creditors and get an endorsement from the state
before it could seek bankruptcy.

"You have to meet with the state Department of Economic and
Community Development and convince them you are deserving of
Chapter 9 protection," Miller said.
snip



Unka George (George McDuffee)

So what happens if they can't pay the debt and they don't qualify for
Chapter 9? Do the creditors come and tear up the streets?

--
Ed Huntress

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 02:42:58 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:16:26 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and
their new waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams
(all legal) that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up
in jail.
==========
Among others see Harrisburg PA.


http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-correct-.html
snip
========
Update on the Harrisburg soap opera.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ab6OQc35weDI
snip
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which has missed $6 million in
debt payments since Jan. 1, should consider seeking Chapter
9 bankruptcy protection, City Controller Dan Miller told a
three-hour special committee hearing.

Miller, the first of four people to testify last night in an
"informational session" on insolvency convened by Gloria
Martin-Roberts, council president, said bankruptcy may offer
Harrisburg relief from $68 million in debt-service payments
this year tied to a waste-to-energy incinerator project.
snip
Harrisburg, the capital of Pennsylvania, the sixth-most
populous U.S. state, has guaranteed payments on $282 million
in bonds on the incinerator, run by the Harrisburg
Authority. The payments on the bonds and on a
working-capital loan this year add up to four times the
amount the city collects in property taxes each year, budget
documents show.
snip
The city this month skipped a $637,500 payment due on a loan
to Fairfield, New Jersey-based Covanta Holding Corp.,
operator of the incinerator.

Missed Payment

On April 23, the Harrisburg Authority told the city that it
won't make a $425,282 payment due May 1 on a $17 million
bond issue the city has guaranteed, said Robert Kroboth,
interim finance manager. Kroboth said it isn't likely that
the city will honor its guarantee, meaning the payment will
fall to the bond's insurer, Hamilton, Bermuda-based Assured
Guaranty Municipal Corp.
snip
"It's difficult to get into Chapter 9," Miller said. He said
Harrisburg would have to present a proposed debt relief plan
to its creditors and get an endorsement from the state
before it could seek bankruptcy.

"You have to meet with the state Department of Economic and
Community Development and convince them you are deserving of
Chapter 9 protection," Miller said.
snip

They can also just stop paying their bills and let the creditors and the
Courts force the issue.
I think if it were me I'd just go ahead and file, daring the Court and the
State to invoke any statutory bar.
Screw them I say. It would be the equivalent of an underwater home owner
sending jingle mail.
LOL


--
John R. Carroll

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:23:11 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 02:42:58 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:16:26 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.
==========
Among others see Harrisburg PA.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-correct-.html
snip
========
Update on the Harrisburg soap opera.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ab6OQc35weDI
snip
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which has missed $6 million in
debt payments since Jan. 1, should consider seeking Chapter
9 bankruptcy protection, City Controller Dan Miller told a
three-hour special committee hearing.

Miller, the first of four people to testify last night in an
"informational session" on insolvency convened by Gloria
Martin-Roberts, council president, said bankruptcy may offer
Harrisburg relief from $68 million in debt-service payments
this year tied to a waste-to-energy incinerator project.
snip
Harrisburg, the capital of Pennsylvania, the sixth-most
populous U.S. state, has guaranteed payments on $282 million
in bonds on the incinerator, run by the Harrisburg
Authority. The payments on the bonds and on a
working-capital loan this year add up to four times the
amount the city collects in property taxes each year, budget
documents show.
snip
The city this month skipped a $637,500 payment due on a loan
to Fairfield, New Jersey-based Covanta Holding Corp.,
operator of the incinerator.

Missed Payment

On April 23, the Harrisburg Authority told the city that it
won't make a $425,282 payment due May 1 on a $17 million
bond issue the city has guaranteed, said Robert Kroboth,
interim finance manager. Kroboth said it isn't likely that
the city will honor its guarantee, meaning the payment will
fall to the bond's insurer, Hamilton, Bermuda-based Assured
Guaranty Municipal Corp.
snip
"It's difficult to get into Chapter 9," Miller said. He said
Harrisburg would have to present a proposed debt relief plan
to its creditors and get an endorsement from the state
before it could seek bankruptcy.

"You have to meet with the state Department of Economic and
Community Development and convince them you are deserving of
Chapter 9 protection," Miller said.
snip
Unka George (George McDuffee)

So what happens if they can't pay the debt and they don't qualify for
Chapter 9? Do the creditors come and tear up the streets?
========
Very good question!!! The Harrisburg homeowners and
taxpayers must be pleased as punch with this development...

It appears the bond insurance company will be on the hook to
the bond holders, and it will then be up to them to squeeze
some blood out of this particular turnip. This could get
"sticky" if Assured Guaranty Municipal Corp. domiciled in
Bermuda refuses to pay or "low balls" the claims as they are
outside U.S. jurisdiction. Also unknown are the
existance/amounts/terms of any CDSs on these bonds [bombs?].
It may well be the U.S. taxpayer will again take it in in
the shorts when AIG has to pay off.

Given that Harrisburg is the state capitol, it would seem
appropriate to open a chain of bordellos, casinos and gin
mills, possibly franchised from Nevada. Not only would this
provide a considerable revenue stream, it would also provide
considerable local employment.
http://www.chickenranchbrothel.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Ranch_%28Nevada%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:23:11 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 02:42:58 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:16:26 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and
their
new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
jail.
==========
Among others see Harrisburg PA.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-correct-.html
snip
========
Update on the Harrisburg soap opera.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ab6OQc35weDI
snip
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which has missed $6 million in
debt payments since Jan. 1, should consider seeking Chapter
9 bankruptcy protection, City Controller Dan Miller told a
three-hour special committee hearing.

Miller, the first of four people to testify last night in an
"informational session" on insolvency convened by Gloria
Martin-Roberts, council president, said bankruptcy may offer
Harrisburg relief from $68 million in debt-service payments
this year tied to a waste-to-energy incinerator project.
snip
Harrisburg, the capital of Pennsylvania, the sixth-most
populous U.S. state, has guaranteed payments on $282 million
in bonds on the incinerator, run by the Harrisburg
Authority. The payments on the bonds and on a
working-capital loan this year add up to four times the
amount the city collects in property taxes each year, budget
documents show.
snip
The city this month skipped a $637,500 payment due on a loan
to Fairfield, New Jersey-based Covanta Holding Corp.,
operator of the incinerator.

Missed Payment

On April 23, the Harrisburg Authority told the city that it
won't make a $425,282 payment due May 1 on a $17 million
bond issue the city has guaranteed, said Robert Kroboth,
interim finance manager. Kroboth said it isn't likely that
the city will honor its guarantee, meaning the payment will
fall to the bond's insurer, Hamilton, Bermuda-based Assured
Guaranty Municipal Corp.
snip
"It's difficult to get into Chapter 9," Miller said. He said
Harrisburg would have to present a proposed debt relief plan
to its creditors and get an endorsement from the state
before it could seek bankruptcy.

"You have to meet with the state Department of Economic and
Community Development and convince them you are deserving of
Chapter 9 protection," Miller said.
snip
Unka George (George McDuffee)

So what happens if they can't pay the debt and they don't qualify for
Chapter 9? Do the creditors come and tear up the streets?
========
Very good question!!! The Harrisburg homeowners and
taxpayers must be pleased as punch with this development...

It appears the bond insurance company will be on the hook to
the bond holders, and it will then be up to them to squeeze
some blood out of this particular turnip. This could get
"sticky" if Assured Guaranty Municipal Corp. domiciled in
Bermuda refuses to pay or "low balls" the claims as they are
outside U.S. jurisdiction. Also unknown are the
existance/amounts/terms of any CDSs on these bonds [bombs?].
It may well be the U.S. taxpayer will again take it in in
the shorts when AIG has to pay off.

Given that Harrisburg is the state capitol, it would seem
appropriate to open a chain of bordellos, casinos and gin
mills, possibly franchised from Nevada. Not only would this
provide a considerable revenue stream, it would also provide
considerable local employment.
http://www.chickenranchbrothel.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Ranch_%28Nevada%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada


Unka George (George McDuffee)

Ha-ha! That's creative financing, George. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Homeland Security Attorney Guilty In Bribery Scandal
Last Updated: Wed, 04/21/2010 - 1:59pm

A senior attorney at the Homeland Security agency that enforces
immigration laws and protects the U.S. against terrorist attacks has
been convicted of three dozen corruption-related charges for posing as
an immigration judge and accepting thousands of dollars in bribes from
illegal aliens.

The assistant chief counsel for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
(Constantine Kallas) had already been indicted by a grand jury with 75
counts, including bribery, money laundering, federal worker’s
compensation fraud and a series of other serious crimes related to
accepting hefty cash bribes from dozens of foreigners seeking documents
to stay in the U.S.

This week a federal jury in Los Angeles found Kallas guilty of
conspiracy, six counts of bribery, two counts of obstruction of justice,
seven counts of fraud and misuse of entry documents, three counts of
aggravated identity theft, nine counts of making false statements to the
Department of Labor, four counts of making false statements to obtain
federal employee compensation and four counts of tax evasion. The
disgraced government official faces hundreds of years in prison.

Kallas accepted bribes of as much as $20,000 in exchange for helping
illegal immigrants who were often in the midst of deportation
proceedings. He even took a $7,000 bribe from his housekeeper and got a
smuggling case against her daughter dismissed. The crooked official also
set up two fake companies and filed false employment petitions with the
federal government for dozens of illegal immigrants.

When federal agents searched his home they found a hidden floor safe
with nearly $200,000 in cash and dozens of official immigration files.
They also found a ledger with the names of more than 60 illegal
immigrants and the amount they had paid to remain in the U.S. “legally.”

Similar internal corruption has infested other Homeland Security
agencies responsible for protecting the nation against foreign threats
in the last few years. However, the problem has been most rampant on the
front lines rather than the corporate offices like in this case.

Corruption is so widespread among federal officers guarding the
U.S.-Mexico border that the government created an internal web site
devoted to recently convicted border agents. Dozens of U.S. Customs and
Border Protection agents have been bribed with cash and attractive women
to assure the safe passage of truckloads of illegal immigrants, drugs
and other contraband into the U.S.




"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:38:26 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

In most states, annuity and insurance companies do not have
this option as their actuarial assumptions and calculations
are continually monitored/checked/verified and their
accounts audited by the regulatory agencies. Play fast and
loose in these areas and the regulators will seize the
company.

All that means is that voters have got to step up for a change and hold up
their end of the bargain that is America.
Crappy politicians are the result of crappy voters.
==============
Public -- private -- makes no difference. For one example
of what happens when the actuaries tell the boss what s/he
wants to hear:

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/30/271...advertent.html

Anthem Blue Cross admits 'inadvertent miscalculations' in
rate hikes
By Bobby Caina Calvan
Published: Friday, Apr. 30, 2010 - 12:00 am | Page 1A

Anthem Blue Cross used deeply flawed math and assumptions
when it announced plans to hike premiums by as much as 39
percent for thousands of California subscribers, the
Department of Insurance announced Thursday.

Acknowledging that it had made "inadvertent
miscalculations," the state's largest for-profit health
insurer said it would withdraw its controversial rate
filing. The company said it is considering re-submitting its
filing as soon as next month but did not disclose specifics.

The decision to withdraw its original proposal brings relief
to more than 700,000 Blue Cross subscribers in California
who buy health policies on their own.
snip
Insurance Commissioner Steve Poizner, a Republican running
for governor, hired an outside actuary in February to
investigate the proposed rate hike.

"We found substantial mistakes," Poizner said, adding that
the errors "would have led to massive and unjustified rate
increases. We notified Anthem of these errors, and they
admitted to the mistakes.
snip
=========


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:38:26 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

In most states, annuity and insurance companies do not have
this option as their actuarial assumptions and calculations
are continually monitored/checked/verified and their
accounts audited by the regulatory agencies. Play fast and
loose in these areas and the regulators will seize the
company.

All that means is that voters have got to step up for a change and
hold up their end of the bargain that is America.
Crappy politicians are the result of crappy voters.
==============
Public -- private -- makes no difference. For one example
of what happens when the actuaries tell the boss what s/he
wants to hear:


http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/30/271...advertent.html

Anthem Blue Cross admits 'inadvertent miscalculations' in
rate hikes
By Bobby Caina Calvan
Published: Friday, Apr. 30, 2010 - 12:00 am | Page 1A

Anthem Blue Cross used deeply flawed math and assumptions
when it announced plans to hike premiums by as much as 39
percent for thousands of California subscribers, the
Department of Insurance announced Thursday.

Acknowledging that it had made "inadvertent
miscalculations," the state's largest for-profit health
insurer said it would withdraw its controversial rate
filing. The company said it is considering re-submitting its
filing as soon as next month but did not disclose specifics.

The decision to withdraw its original proposal brings relief
to more than 700,000 Blue Cross subscribers in California
who buy health policies on their own.
snip
Insurance Commissioner Steve Poizner, a Republican running
for governor, hired an outside actuary in February to
investigate the proposed rate hike.

"We found substantial mistakes," Poizner said, adding that
the errors "would have led to massive and unjustified rate
increases. We notified Anthem of these errors, and they
admitted to the mistakes.
snip
=========


I think you've got it backwards George.
The boss told their regulatory committee to go ahead and monkey around with
the numbers so an increase in rates would be justified.
They got caught.

--
John R. Carroll

On 2010-05-22, azotic wrote:
Everyone should be concerned. Goole has been harvesting Wifi data
and MAC numbers from unsecured networks Where i live there are
6 unsecured wifi networks that i can log onto. One of them is an
electrical contractors business. Scarry how careless small businesses
can be. When asked for my SS# i ask why they need it, then i refuse.

Google said it collected Wi-Fi network data, such as SSID (Service Set
Identifier) information and MAC (Media Access Control) addresses. The
company said it only collected fragments of personal Web traffic as its
Wi-Fi equipment automatically changed channels five times a second. Wi-Fi
networks can carry several megabytes of data per second.

I would not worry, what bad can come out from a few packets collected
by a passing car. There is software to crack WEP networks, I could
crack up to 5 networks per hour, that's even scarier.

i

http://www.pcworld.com/article/19676..._google. html



Google admitted in a blog post Friday that its Street View cars had
unintentionally intercepted fragments of data from open Wi-Fi networks for
periods of 200 milliseconds at a time. Google said that it didn't know that
it was collecting or storing this information.

The lawsuit asserts that Google willfully obtained and stored private
information from personal Wi-Fi hotspots as its vehicles, equipped with
cameras and "packet sniffers" drove around neighborhoods throughout Oregon.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30686_3-20005515-266.html

Best Regards
Tom.