On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 00:48:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Ignoramus23667" wrote in message
m...
On 2010-04-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Iggy,
I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the
stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious
manufacturing
left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in
point
of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves, you have absolutely
no
justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in Europe
and Japan. We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to
the
third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't believe the
**** you read....look on the shelves.
Steve

Take a look at the detailed US manufacturing data (and the trade data,
which
is another story) and you may be in for a shock, Steve. What you're
seeing
on shelves is consumer products. They're the bottom end of manufacturing.
The US is doing very well in industrial and commercial products, and the
overall dollar figures of output keep climbing year after year. Of
course,
during a recession, everything drops. But go back two years and look at
the
decades-long trend.

I'll pull together some links if you have any trouble finding it.


I would like to see some data Ed. Thanks

i

Ok. First off, total manufacturing output, adjusted for inflation. The gray
bands are recessions. If you want to see data preceding 1970, click on
"Vintage Series" (ALFRED):

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN?cid=3

The Annual Survey of Manufactures goes into great detail, but it involves a
lot of paging. There are filters and so on that you can use:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=AM0831VS101

This one (the M3 report) is tedious to read, but you can drill down and see
how much we're manufacturing in very finely-defined categories. It's the big
one. Since it's a drill-down table, you can see broad categories and then
finer ones.

When I did reports on manufacturing for the trade press, this is the one I
used. And if you think this is tedious, you should have seen it in the old
days, when one report was one bookshelf full of computer printouts:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=AM0831GS101

There are download options for these files. If you want graphs, or want to
compare a category output over time, you'll have to fish around for historic
tables and create your own graphs. I used to do this frequently. It's a
hassle. Here's home base:

http://www.census.gov/mcd/

One very interesting thing to look at is the trade data. I'm going to
recommend this for a start:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/...ease/ft900.pdf

Here's the home for that general class of data:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/data/index.html

Note that our exports really are not that far below our imports, if you look
at them in the same place (the graph does this). When we talk about
protecting against imports, we have to wonder who will buy all those exports
if we do.

The tables in the PDF above show many surprising things. We're exporting as
much in many industrial categories as we import. If it wasn't for oil and
low-end consumer goods, we'd be pretty close to balance.

Enough for now? There's a ton of this stuff available. These links aren't
always the quickest to read, but they collectively answer just about any
question you might have.


But they are Sooo much trouble to read all those funny words 'n
thingies.....Can't I just watch Fox News?





:-

Cheers,

John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Here now! Banjo players are all carefree, happy fellows, like myself.
Most of us wouldn't know a politician if we met him; heck, some of us
don't even know what color one is :-)

There are times that I'd like to smash my TV and computer, buy some
fishing rods and a banjo, and go live in a cabin.

But I'm hooked.

How about we set up a fund to buy James Taylor a banjo?

David

There must be some cultural reference in there that went over my head. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Here now! Banjo players are all carefree, happy fellows, like myself.
Most of us wouldn't know a politician if we met him; heck, some of us
don't even know what color one is :-)
There are times that I'd like to smash my TV and computer, buy some
fishing rods and a banjo, and go live in a cabin.

But I'm hooked.
How about we set up a fund to buy James Taylor a banjo?

David

There must be some cultural reference in there that went over my head. d8-)


"Banjo players are all carefree, happy fellows"

Taylor's music reflects his history of severe depression. Can you
image "Fire and Rain" done to banjo music? Maybe it would help his music.

Probably best to leave aside the "Deliverance" references, though.

David

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.

Gunner


The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
indoctrinated with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit
the mold of a liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for
yourself. If you have any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism
as taught in schools, then you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals
think for themselves and give the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer,
and anyone that comes up with their own answer isn't thinking for
themselves.

RogerN

So how did you escape all of this, Roger? 'Raised by wolves, were you? Or
didn't you go to school long enough for all of that to happen?

--
Ed Huntress


No, just go to school, think for yourself, and see through the liberal BS.

I guess you're just a part of that very elite group, Roger, that has unique
insights and the ability to resist all of those pressures to which everyone
else falls victim. Your enviable and exemplary insights even give you the
authority to cheer and scheme for the demise of those who don't agree with
you. What a Christian you are!


On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal
attacks on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the
arguments for being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against
dissolving due to the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was
attacked by liberal Bible scholars making claims that it was written by
different people and different times, then the complete, or nearly
complete, writings of Isaiah were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and
dated, bottom line, the Bible was right .. again, the liberals were wrong
.. again.

RogerN

I'm glad for you that you've found what you're looking for. Just don't try
to impose it on the rest of us, Ok?

--
Ed Huntress

"John" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 00:48:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Ignoramus23667" wrote in message
om...
On 2010-04-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Iggy,
I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in
the
stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious
manufacturing
left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in
point
of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves, you have
absolutely
no
justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in
Europe
and Japan. We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to
the
third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't believe
the
**** you read....look on the shelves.
Steve

Take a look at the detailed US manufacturing data (and the trade data,
which
is another story) and you may be in for a shock, Steve. What you're
seeing
on shelves is consumer products. They're the bottom end of
manufacturing.
The US is doing very well in industrial and commercial products, and
the
overall dollar figures of output keep climbing year after year. Of
course,
during a recession, everything drops. But go back two years and look at
the
decades-long trend.

I'll pull together some links if you have any trouble finding it.


I would like to see some data Ed. Thanks

i

Ok. First off, total manufacturing output, adjusted for inflation. The
gray
bands are recessions. If you want to see data preceding 1970, click on
"Vintage Series" (ALFRED):

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN?cid=3

The Annual Survey of Manufactures goes into great detail, but it involves
a
lot of paging. There are filters and so on that you can use:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=AM0831VS101

This one (the M3 report) is tedious to read, but you can drill down and
see
how much we're manufacturing in very finely-defined categories. It's the
big
one. Since it's a drill-down table, you can see broad categories and then
finer ones.

When I did reports on manufacturing for the trade press, this is the one I
used. And if you think this is tedious, you should have seen it in the old
days, when one report was one bookshelf full of computer printouts:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=AM0831GS101

There are download options for these files. If you want graphs, or want to
compare a category output over time, you'll have to fish around for
historic
tables and create your own graphs. I used to do this frequently. It's a
hassle. Here's home base:

http://www.census.gov/mcd/

One very interesting thing to look at is the trade data. I'm going to
recommend this for a start:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/...ease/ft900.pdf

Here's the home for that general class of data:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/data/index.html

Note that our exports really are not that far below our imports, if you
look
at them in the same place (the graph does this). When we talk about
protecting against imports, we have to wonder who will buy all those
exports
if we do.

The tables in the PDF above show many surprising things. We're exporting
as
much in many industrial categories as we import. If it wasn't for oil and
low-end consumer goods, we'd be pretty close to balance.

Enough for now? There's a ton of this stuff available. These links aren't
always the quickest to read, but they collectively answer just about any
question you might have.


But they are Sooo much trouble to read all those funny words 'n
thingies.....Can't I just watch Fox News?

You could, and many can, which explains may unfortunate things. g

I haven't given a talk on that stuff for a few years but when I do, I boil
it all down to graphs: comparisons, trend lines, etc. As I said, it's a lot
of work, but it's pretty startling when you see the real thing, in light of
the impressions we get from the news.

That graph in the first link above, of the US historical manufacturing
output, is enough to make many people sit up and scratch their heads.

BTW, that "Vintage" ALFRED link is not what I expected -- I should have
checked more carefully. They did something weird. ALFRED usually gives you
long-term historical results.

--
Ed Huntress

"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Here now! Banjo players are all carefree, happy fellows, like myself.
Most of us wouldn't know a politician if we met him; heck, some of us
don't even know what color one is :-)
There are times that I'd like to smash my TV and computer, buy some
fishing rods and a banjo, and go live in a cabin.

But I'm hooked.
How about we set up a fund to buy James Taylor a banjo?

David

There must be some cultural reference in there that went over my head.
d8-)


"Banjo players are all carefree, happy fellows"

Taylor's music reflects his history of severe depression. Can you image
"Fire and Rain" done to banjo music? Maybe it would help his music.

Oh, Ok. Now I'm with you.


Probably best to leave aside the "Deliverance" references, though.

David

It would be confusing...something about hillbillies with beady, close-set
eyes who look like all their cousins.

--
Ed Huntress

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:14:42 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:40:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.


You should have plenty of free, leftist catgut after the cull... ;-)


You know..Id not thought about that...true indeed! Though given the
source...think it would ever be able to be tuned?

Shor. But think, why do so many of those old time songs sound so
whiny? It's the inferior lefty guts their using for strings.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On 2010-04-03, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Ignoramus23667" wrote in message
...
On 2010-04-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Iggy,
I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the
stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious
manufacturing
left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in
point
of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves, you have absolutely
no
justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in Europe
and Japan. We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to
the
third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't believe the
**** you read....look on the shelves.
Steve

Take a look at the detailed US manufacturing data (and the trade data,
which
is another story) and you may be in for a shock, Steve. What you're
seeing
on shelves is consumer products. They're the bottom end of manufacturing.
The US is doing very well in industrial and commercial products, and the
overall dollar figures of output keep climbing year after year. Of
course,
during a recession, everything drops. But go back two years and look at
the
decades-long trend.

I'll pull together some links if you have any trouble finding it.


I would like to see some data Ed. Thanks

i

Ok. First off, total manufacturing output, adjusted for inflation. The gray
bands are recessions. If you want to see data preceding 1970, click on
"Vintage Series" (ALFRED):

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN?cid=3

The Annual Survey of Manufactures goes into great detail, but it involves a
lot of paging. There are filters and so on that you can use:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=AM0831VS101

This one (the M3 report) is tedious to read, but you can drill down and see
how much we're manufacturing in very finely-defined categories. It's the big
one. Since it's a drill-down table, you can see broad categories and then
finer ones.

When I did reports on manufacturing for the trade press, this is the one I
used. And if you think this is tedious, you should have seen it in the old
days, when one report was one bookshelf full of computer printouts:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=AM0831GS101

There are download options for these files. If you want graphs, or want to
compare a category output over time, you'll have to fish around for historic
tables and create your own graphs. I used to do this frequently. It's a
hassle. Here's home base:

http://www.census.gov/mcd/

One very interesting thing to look at is the trade data. I'm going to
recommend this for a start:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/...ease/ft900.pdf

Here's the home for that general class of data:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/data/index.html

Note that our exports really are not that far below our imports, if you look
at them in the same place (the graph does this). When we talk about
protecting against imports, we have to wonder who will buy all those exports
if we do.

The tables in the PDF above show many surprising things. We're exporting as
much in many industrial categories as we import. If it wasn't for oil and
low-end consumer goods, we'd be pretty close to balance.

Enough for now? There's a ton of this stuff available. These links aren't
always the quickest to read, but they collectively answer just about any
question you might have.


Ed, thanks. I am going to fly back home from CA, in an hour, and I
downloaded your articles on the laptop to read in-flight.

Here's one more piece about how the recession has likely ended:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/bu...my/05econ.html

i

"Ignoramus31024" wrote in message
...
On 2010-04-03, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Ignoramus23667" wrote in message
...
On 2010-04-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Iggy,
I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in
the
stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious
manufacturing
left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in
point
of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves, you have
absolutely
no
justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in
Europe
and Japan. We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to
the
third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't believe
the
**** you read....look on the shelves.
Steve

Take a look at the detailed US manufacturing data (and the trade data,
which
is another story) and you may be in for a shock, Steve. What you're
seeing
on shelves is consumer products. They're the bottom end of
manufacturing.
The US is doing very well in industrial and commercial products, and
the
overall dollar figures of output keep climbing year after year. Of
course,
during a recession, everything drops. But go back two years and look at
the
decades-long trend.

I'll pull together some links if you have any trouble finding it.


I would like to see some data Ed. Thanks

i

Ok. First off, total manufacturing output, adjusted for inflation. The
gray
bands are recessions. If you want to see data preceding 1970, click on
"Vintage Series" (ALFRED):

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN?cid=3

The Annual Survey of Manufactures goes into great detail, but it involves
a
lot of paging. There are filters and so on that you can use:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=AM0831VS101

This one (the M3 report) is tedious to read, but you can drill down and
see
how much we're manufacturing in very finely-defined categories. It's the
big
one. Since it's a drill-down table, you can see broad categories and then
finer ones.

When I did reports on manufacturing for the trade press, this is the one
I
used. And if you think this is tedious, you should have seen it in the
old
days, when one report was one bookshelf full of computer printouts:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=AM0831GS101

There are download options for these files. If you want graphs, or want
to
compare a category output over time, you'll have to fish around for
historic
tables and create your own graphs. I used to do this frequently. It's a
hassle. Here's home base:

http://www.census.gov/mcd/

One very interesting thing to look at is the trade data. I'm going to
recommend this for a start:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/...ease/ft900.pdf

Here's the home for that general class of data:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/data/index.html

Note that our exports really are not that far below our imports, if you
look
at them in the same place (the graph does this). When we talk about
protecting against imports, we have to wonder who will buy all those
exports
if we do.

The tables in the PDF above show many surprising things. We're exporting
as
much in many industrial categories as we import. If it wasn't for oil and
low-end consumer goods, we'd be pretty close to balance.

Enough for now? There's a ton of this stuff available. These links aren't
always the quickest to read, but they collectively answer just about any
question you might have.


Ed, thanks. I am going to fly back home from CA, in an hour, and I
downloaded your articles on the laptop to read in-flight.

Here's one more piece about how the recession has likely ended:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/bu...my/05econ.html

i

Enjoy your data-crunching. g

I hope Greenspan is right. As I've mentioned before, I'm always behind the
curve on optimism regarding job-creation because (probably) I don't have a
full, imaginative grasp of how jobs grow in this free-for-all economy of
ours. It always amazes me, but not because I don't believe in the business
cycle. It's just a matter of wondering where they're going to come from.

Have a good flight.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.

Gunner


The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
indoctrinated with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit
the mold of a liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for
yourself. If you have any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism
as taught in schools, then you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals
think for themselves and give the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer,
and anyone that comes up with their own answer isn't thinking for
themselves.

RogerN

So how did you escape all of this, Roger? 'Raised by wolves, were you?
Or didn't you go to school long enough for all of that to happen?

--
Ed Huntress


No, just go to school, think for yourself, and see through the liberal
BS.

I guess you're just a part of that very elite group, Roger, that has
unique insights and the ability to resist all of those pressures to which
everyone else falls victim. Your enviable and exemplary insights even give
you the authority to cheer and scheme for the demise of those who don't
agree with you. What a Christian you are!

Nope, there are many conservatives even thought the liberal bias in our
newspapers, TV, and educational system. Why are nearly 50% conservatives
when nearly 95% of what we see, hear, read, and get taught is liberalism?
It wasn't me that decided I knew more at age 13 than all the people that
believe in God.

On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal
attacks on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the
arguments for being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against
dissolving due to the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was
attacked by liberal Bible scholars making claims that it was written by
different people and different times, then the complete, or nearly
complete, writings of Isaiah were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and
dated, bottom line, the Bible was right .. again, the liberals were wrong
.. again.

RogerN

I'm glad for you that you've found what you're looking for. Just don't try
to impose it on the rest of us, Ok?

--
Ed Huntress

Like liberalism is imposed on everyone that watches TV, goes to school, or
reads a newspaper? Also Ed, don't take anything I say about "Liberals"
personally, you're not a very good liberal, you even seem to think it's OK
to own a gun. You infidel! :-) Also I think you know I sometimes just try
to stir the hornets nest and I don't always put a smilie to indicate I'm
joking, it's easy to have a poker face when typing messages though often I'm
laughing when I press send.

RogerN

On 4/3/2010 9:15 PM, RogerN wrote:
"Gunner wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 04:23:29 +0700, wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:13:37 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


wrote in message
...

"John R. wrote in message
...
Ignoramus23298 wrote:
On 2010-04-01, wrote:
The Bush policies are finally starting to yield positive results.
Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.

Recall the timeline of the events. The crisis hit us in the late
September of 2008, on the eights year of Bush presidency.

The crisis had been in the works for nearly two years at that point
with
Congress passing the first of several spending measures on January
25th
(?)
2008.


Sounds about right, the crisis hit when the Democrats won big in the
election in 2006 and took a turn for the worse when Obama pulled ahead
in
the polls around Sept 2008. No wonder the Bible says the "Fool" has
said
there is no God, you Atheists prove the Bible correct time after time
and
you don't even know it!

RogerN

Roger, don't be an idiot. The Republicans blocked legislation 104 times
in
the last Congress -- and that was counted before it was over.

There were no big economic policies enacted during that time, and none at
all that didn't have Republican support. So please quit playing your
banjo
and take a look at what really happened.


Here now! Banjo players are all carefree, happy fellows, like myself.
Most of us wouldn't know a politician if we met him; heck, some of us
don't even know what color one is :-)

RogerN doesn't qualify. Not even "air banjo".

Cheers,

John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.

Gunner


The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be indoctrinated
with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit the mold of a
liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for yourself. If you have
any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism as taught in schools, then
you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals think for themselves and give
the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer, and anyone that comes up with their
own answer isn't thinking for themselves.

RogerN




Is that what happened to you when you were in school, Roger? Because you
give the impression that none of that has happened to you. Or did you
not attend school? In which case I'm wondering how you know what they
are teaching there if you weren't there.

Hawke

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 15:58:57 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.

Gunner


The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
indoctrinated with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit
the mold of a liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for
yourself. If you have any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism
as taught in schools, then you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals
think for themselves and give the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer,
and anyone that comes up with their own answer isn't thinking for
themselves.

RogerN

So how did you escape all of this, Roger? 'Raised by wolves, were you?
Or didn't you go to school long enough for all of that to happen?

--
Ed Huntress


No, just go to school, think for yourself, and see through the liberal
BS.

I guess you're just a part of that very elite group, Roger, that has
unique insights and the ability to resist all of those pressures to which
everyone else falls victim. Your enviable and exemplary insights even give
you the authority to cheer and scheme for the demise of those who don't
agree with you. What a Christian you are!

Nope, there are many conservatives even thought the liberal bias in our
newspapers, TV, and educational system. Why are nearly 50% conservatives
when nearly 95% of what we see, hear, read, and get taught is liberalism?
It wasn't me that decided I knew more at age 13 than all the people that
believe in God.

On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal
attacks on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the
arguments for being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against
dissolving due to the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was
attacked by liberal Bible scholars making claims that it was written by
different people and different times, then the complete, or nearly
complete, writings of Isaiah were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and
dated, bottom line, the Bible was right .. again, the liberals were wrong
.. again.

RogerN

I'm glad for you that you've found what you're looking for. Just don't try
to impose it on the rest of us, Ok?

--
Ed Huntress

Like liberalism is imposed on everyone that watches TV, goes to school, or
reads a newspaper? Also Ed, don't take anything I say about "Liberals"
personally, you're not a very good liberal, you even seem to think it's OK
to own a gun. You infidel! :-) Also I think you know I sometimes just try
to stir the hornets nest and I don't always put a smilie to indicate I'm
joking, it's easy to have a poker face when typing messages though often I'm
laughing when I press send.

RogerN


Indeed.

VBG

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:00:30 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


So, Ned. What do you hear? Are they saying that expansion is from
Obama's fabulous job so far, or is everyone saying "Well, it doesn't
look as if he's going to take the country down this year, let's invest
and expand for awhile."

I can honestly say it's never come up. All the folks I choose to deal
with are down to earth, pragmatic engineers or techs -- I come here
for my dose of wacky economic theory.

--
Ned Simmons

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Jeff R." wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
indoctrinated with liberalism. ...

RogerN

Kind'a like fundie christians, huh?

--
JR


... Tearing down a solid foundation for a belief and then building a
weaker one, and then believing the weaker foundation is true is how
liberals change the facts of history over time.

Something Christians would never do, huh?

Another example, liberals claim the New Testament wasn't written until
hundreds of years after the fact.

Roger, Roger. So... when were the gospels written? How old were the
authors at the time? How old were they at the time of Jesus?

The bottom line difference between a liberal and a fundie Christian is the
Christian believes truth on a solid foundation, the liberal believes in
destroying solid foundations and building weaker ones to believe in.
What's it been, a couple hundred years since slavery in the USA? And
already the liberal Democrats have conveniently forgot that they were the
ones wanting slavery.

Ummm... Roger, don't forget that the warrant for slavery is in the bible,
and the brave individuals - christians or not - who opposed it did so in the
face of biblical injunction as well as majority popular opinion.

Today the issue is killing babies,

Is that the only issue?
Really?
You do realise, don't you, that your god kills millions of times more babies
than do any actual living people.

How do *you* get to choose what *the* issue is?

What about inner-city violence?
What about corrupt politicians?
What about global poverty?
What about AIDS in Africa?
What about care of the elderly?

How come you get to choose what the issue is?


For a liberal, truth is what they want it to be, for others, the truth is
the truth.

You forgot the capital "T".

RogerN


So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
"brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their own
values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian does the
same thing?

Just wondering...

--
Jeff R.

"Jeff R." wrote in message
...
"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Jeff R." wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
indoctrinated with liberalism. ...

RogerN

Kind'a like fundie christians, huh?

--
JR


... Tearing down a solid foundation for a belief and then building a
weaker one, and then believing the weaker foundation is true is how
liberals change the facts of history over time.

Something Christians would never do, huh?

Actually many follow and believe somewhat blindly.

Another example, liberals claim the New Testament wasn't written until
hundreds of years after the fact.

Roger, Roger. So... when were the gospels written? How old were the
authors at the time? How old were they at the time of Jesus?

There's pretty good evidence that they were written before the destruction
on the temple in 70AD. For one, they mention Jesus' telling that the temple
would be destroyed but there is no mention that it was fulfilled in 70AD.
If any new testament writings were from a later date it would have been
beneficial to include the destruction of the temple in 70AD and the
disciples death for their faith. Also, it would have been beneficial to
leave out the any indication that the disciples thought Jesus would return
in their lifetime. That would indicate that the new testament writings were
within 40 years of Christs resurrection. Also, in Paul's letter to the
Corinthians, he mentions that there were over 500 eye witnesses that saw
Jesus after the resurrection and many were still alive at the time of the
writing, indicating that the readers could find them and talk to the if they
wanted.

The bottom line difference between a liberal and a fundie Christian is
the Christian believes truth on a solid foundation, the liberal believes
in destroying solid foundations and building weaker ones to believe in.
What's it been, a couple hundred years since slavery in the USA? And
already the liberal Democrats have conveniently forgot that they were the
ones wanting slavery.

Ummm... Roger, don't forget that the warrant for slavery is in the bible,
and the brave individuals - christians or not - who opposed it did so in
the face of biblical injunction as well as majority popular opinion.

Today the issue is killing babies,

Is that the only issue?

No, but it's a dividing issue between Democrats and Republicans just like
slavery was years ago, and the Democrats were on the wrong side of the
issue.

Really?
You do realise, don't you, that your god kills millions of times more
babies than do any actual living people.

How do *you* get to choose what *the* issue is?

What about inner-city violence?
What about corrupt politicians?
What about global poverty?
What about AIDS in Africa?
What about care of the elderly?

How come you get to choose what the issue is?

Like I answered above, that certainly isn't the only issue.

For a liberal, truth is what they want it to be, for others, the truth is
the truth.

You forgot the capital "T".

RogerN


So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
"brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their
own values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian
does the same thing?

Just wondering...

--
Jeff R.

For many there may not be a lot of difference, they don't teach the solid
foundation of the scriptures and many lose their faith when they get older,
largely due to the teachings of liberals. They believe the liberals
arguments instead of looking up the counter arguments. There is a former
Atheist that was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune (IIRC)
that used his investigative reporting skills on Christianity. Now he writes
books and has debates between the most outspoken Atheists and Christians,
many Atheists come to these debates and become Christians. They had never
heard the other side of the argument before.

RogerN

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:14:42 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:40:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.


You should have plenty of free, leftist catgut after the cull... ;-)


You know..Id not thought about that...true indeed! Though given the
source...think it would ever be able to be tuned?

Shor. But think, why do so many of those old time songs sound so
whiny? It's the inferior lefty guts their using for strings.


You could always go into the tennis racket racket.

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

There's pretty good evidence that they were written before the destruction
on the temple in 70AD. For one, they mention Jesus' telling that the
temple would be destroyed but there is no mention that it was fulfilled in
70AD. If any new testament writings were from a later date it would have
been beneficial to include the destruction of the temple in 70AD and the
disciples death for their faith.

That's a pretty shaky foundation upon which to base your argument. You
argue against the presence of a non-existent omission, as if that proves (or
even "suggests") your chronology. Skaky indeed, considering the hundreds of
acknowledged extant contradictions already conceded.

...Also, it would have been beneficial to leave out the any indication that
the disciples thought Jesus would return in their lifetime.

"Beneficial" perhaps, but nowhere near solid foundations for evidence.

It would have been (immensely) beneficial if the authors of the gospels had
simply annotated them as having been written "in the xxxth year of our
lord...", yet they chose (?) not to. How many books do you own which do not
have the year they were written clearly indicated at the front? This is a
minor point, granted, but arguably much more significant than the "temple"
of the "return" arguments you advance.


...That would indicate that the new testament writings were within 40 years
of Christs resurrection.

No - it would only suggest that as a possibility. No more.

... Also, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he mentions that there were
over 500 eye witnesses that saw Jesus after the resurrection and many were
still alive at the time of the writing, indicating that the readers could
find them and talk to the if they wanted.

Roger, that's one account claiming there were 500, not 500 verifying it
independently. There is a difference.



The bottom line difference between a liberal and a fundie Christian is
the Christian believes truth on a solid foundation, the liberal believes
in destroying solid foundations and building weaker ones to believe in.

Extraordinary.
You have evidence for this broad, sweeping statement?

What's it been, a couple hundred years since slavery in the USA? And
already the liberal Democrats have conveniently forgot that they were
the ones wanting slavery.

Ummm... Roger, don't forget that the warrant for slavery is in the bible,
and the brave individuals - christians or not - who opposed it did so in
the face of biblical injunction as well as majority popular opinion.

Today the issue is killing babies,

Is that the only issue?

No, but it's a dividing issue between Democrats and Republicans just like
slavery was years ago, and the Democrats were on the wrong side of the
issue.

If I read you correctly, they were the ones who supported the biblical
warrant. Don't forget that the brave folk who opposed slavery were also
opposing instructions given to them in the bible.


So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
"brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their
own values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian
does the same thing?

Just wondering...

--
Jeff R.

For many there may not be a lot of difference, they don't teach the solid
foundation of the scriptures

Roger - the scriptures are *your* myths and legends - not verified facts.
The ancient Greeks taught Zeus and Mt Olympus.
Your god and your legends are no different - just a product of our fertile
imagination.


...and many lose their faith when they get older,

You say that like its a *bad* thing!

largely due to the teachings of liberals. They believe the liberals
arguments instead of looking up the counter arguments. There is a former
Atheist that was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune (IIRC)
that used his investigative reporting skills on Christianity. Now he
writes books and has debates between the most outspoken Atheists and
Christians, many Atheists come to these debates and become Christians.
They had never heard the other side of the argument before.

Oh pffftphttt!
I see your anecdote and raise you one.

Which number is currently increasing: believers or non-believers?
(Not that a majority indicates truth, mind you)



RogerN

Keep plugging away, Roger. I hope you've had a pleasant holiday.

--
Jeff R.

"Jeff R." wrote in message
...
snip--

So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
"brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their
own values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian
does the same thing?

Just wondering...

--
Jeff R.

Yes, Roger.. I'm wondering, too.

Harold

Let the Record show that "Chief Egalitarian" on
or about Sun, 4 Apr 2010 20:55:10 -0500 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"pyotr filipivich" wrote:
Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:14:42 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:40:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.

You should have plenty of free, leftist catgut after the cull... ;-)

You know..Id not thought about that...true indeed! Though given the
source...think it would ever be able to be tuned?

Shor. But think, why do so many of those old time songs sound so
whiny? It's the inferior lefty guts their using for strings.


You could always go into the tennis racket racket.

I think I'd go for the racket ball racket racket. Smaller
rackets, so seeing as how the lefties seem to have no guts, it might
be more easily one.
But the lefties do seem a bit high strung.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:31:58 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.

Gunner


The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
indoctrinated with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit the
mold of a liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for yourself.
If you have any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism as taught
in schools, then you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals think for
themselves and give the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer, and anyone
that comes up with their own answer isn't thinking for themselves.

RogerN

So how did you escape all of this, Roger? 'Raised by wolves, were you? Or
didn't you go to school long enough for all of that to happen?

--
Ed Huntress


No, just go to school, think for yourself, and see through the liberal BS.

On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal attacks
on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the arguments for
being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against dissolving due to
the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was attacked by liberal
Bible scholars making claims that it was written by different people and
different times, then the complete, or nearly complete, writings of Isaiah
were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and dated, bottom line, the Bible
was right .. again, the liberals were wrong .. again.

RogerN


Roger, I hate to say it but your rationale seem to leap about with the
dexterity if a kangaroo.

In another post you stated that "God had people write down what
happened" and now you say that Liberals claim that it was written by
several people.

Where is the disagreement? God said WRITE and obviously it happened,
we have the book as proof. Whether it was written by one man or a
million monkeys with a million IBM selectrics, if it was done at the
express direction of God then one can only assume that it met with
whatever criteria that he/she/it specified.

There is one problem though if you are going to refer to the "Word of
God". the Moslems have a book that they say was written, actually
dictated, by the Angel Gabriel at the express direction of God. and
since it was the same God, the God of Abraham, it must be equally as
valid as the Jewish books.

Cheers,

John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.

Gunner


The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
indoctrinated with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit
the mold of a liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for
yourself. If you have any opinion that disagrees with modern
liberalism as taught in schools, then you are not thinking for
yourself. Liberals think for themselves and give the indoctrinated
cookie cutter answer, and anyone that comes up with their own answer
isn't thinking for themselves.

RogerN

So how did you escape all of this, Roger? 'Raised by wolves, were you?
Or didn't you go to school long enough for all of that to happen?

--
Ed Huntress


No, just go to school, think for yourself, and see through the liberal
BS.

I guess you're just a part of that very elite group, Roger, that has
unique insights and the ability to resist all of those pressures to which
everyone else falls victim. Your enviable and exemplary insights even
give you the authority to cheer and scheme for the demise of those who
don't agree with you. What a Christian you are!

Nope, there are many conservatives even thought the liberal bias in our
newspapers, TV, and educational system. Why are nearly 50% conservatives
when nearly 95% of what we see, hear, read, and get taught is liberalism?
It wasn't me that decided I knew more at age 13 than all the people that
believe in God.

This is the most conservative country in the developed world, Roger. And I
can hardly imagine what a liberal is doing in southern Illinois. g I have
to question your perspective, and what kind of strawman you've constructed
and labelled "liberal."


On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal
attacks on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the
arguments for being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against
dissolving due to the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was
attacked by liberal Bible scholars making claims that it was written by
different people and different times, then the complete, or nearly
complete, writings of Isaiah were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and
dated, bottom line, the Bible was right .. again, the liberals were
wrong .. again.

RogerN

I'm glad for you that you've found what you're looking for. Just don't
try to impose it on the rest of us, Ok?

--
Ed Huntress

Like liberalism is imposed on everyone that watches TV, goes to school, or
reads a newspaper? Also Ed, don't take anything I say about "Liberals"
personally, you're not a very good liberal, you even seem to think it's OK
to own a gun. You infidel! :-) Also I think you know I sometimes just
try to stir the hornets nest and I don't always put a smilie to indicate
I'm joking, it's easy to have a poker face when typing messages though
often I'm laughing when I press send.

Yeah, I recognize that. That's why I can't get angry with you. I don't
defend liberalism because I'm a liberal, as you've correctly identified. By
any reasonable perspective, my overall position on business and politics is
centrist; on economics it's somewhat conservative; and on social issues it
varies -- though mostly liberal.

But I often defend liberals because I believe their sentiments and
motivations are often admirable. By contrast, too many right-wingers are
morally bankrupt, near-sociopaths. The real liberals are mostly just silly.

Seriously, the cartoonish ideas of liberalism we read on this NG are beyond
stupid. Some here have just built strawmen on which to blame of their own
failings and discontent. If you need someone to blame, to excuse yourself
for not being a success, it seems, liberals are the all-purpose goat.

So I have to chuckle when you say that liberalism is "imposed" on you. You
don't seem imposed upon, Roger. Neither does anyone else here.

--
Ed Huntress

"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...
"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

There's pretty good evidence that they were written before the
destruction on the temple in 70AD. For one, they mention Jesus' telling
that the temple would be destroyed but there is no mention that it was
fulfilled in 70AD. If any new testament writings were from a later date
it would have been beneficial to include the destruction of the temple in
70AD and the disciples death for their faith.

That's a pretty shaky foundation upon which to base your argument. You
argue against the presence of a non-existent omission, as if that proves
(or even "suggests") your chronology. Skaky indeed, considering the
hundreds of acknowledged extant contradictions already conceded.

...Also, it would have been beneficial to leave out the any indication
that the disciples thought Jesus would return in their lifetime.

"Beneficial" perhaps, but nowhere near solid foundations for evidence.

But is someones claim from 2000 years later a more solid foundation?

It would have been (immensely) beneficial if the authors of the gospels
had simply annotated them as having been written "in the xxxth year of our
lord...", yet they chose (?) not to. How many books do you own which do
not have the year they were written clearly indicated at the front? This
is a minor point, granted, but arguably much more significant than the
"temple" of the "return" arguments you advance.

How? Anyone could put any date they wanted to on it. Writing a date on it
wouldn't have it accepted by anyone that doesn't accept it otherwise IMHO.

...That would indicate that the new testament writings were within 40
years of Christs resurrection.

No - it would only suggest that as a possibility. No more.

A possibility based on sound reasoning in contrast to liberal claims based
on unbelief.

... Also, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he mentions that there were
over 500 eye witnesses that saw Jesus after the resurrection and many were
still alive at the time of the writing, indicating that the readers could
find them and talk to the if they wanted.

Roger, that's one account claiming there were 500, not 500 verifying it
independently. There is a difference.

Yes, but the reader in that day could have found those that were still alive
and verified that there were indeed 500 eye witnesses.

The bottom line difference between a liberal and a fundie Christian is
the Christian believes truth on a solid foundation, the liberal
believes in destroying solid foundations and building weaker ones to
believe in.

Extraordinary.
You have evidence for this broad, sweeping statement?

At least as much evidence as the Liberal Bible Scholars do for what they
teach.

What's it been, a couple hundred years since slavery in the USA? And
already the liberal Democrats have conveniently forgot that they were
the ones wanting slavery.

Ummm... Roger, don't forget that the warrant for slavery is in the
bible, and the brave individuals - christians or not - who opposed it
did so in the face of biblical injunction as well as majority popular
opinion.

Today the issue is killing babies,

Is that the only issue?

No, but it's a dividing issue between Democrats and Republicans just like
slavery was years ago, and the Democrats were on the wrong side of the
issue.

If I read you correctly, they were the ones who supported the biblical
warrant. Don't forget that the brave folk who opposed slavery were also
opposing instructions given to them in the bible.

The Bible instructs on treatment of a slave but that does not necessarily
mean God is pro slavery. Today we still have slavery but just a different
form of it. Back then a slave worked and in return got food and shelter, I
work so that I can have food and shelter. Some work and can barely afford
food and shelter. If a slave refused to do his work he would get punished,
if an employee refuses to do their work they get fired and are punished by
not getting the money they need for their food and shelter.

So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
"brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their
own values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian
does the same thing?

Just wondering...

--
Jeff R.

For many there may not be a lot of difference, they don't teach the solid
foundation of the scriptures

Roger - the scriptures are *your* myths and legends - not verified facts.
The ancient Greeks taught Zeus and Mt Olympus.
Your god and your legends are no different - just a product of our fertile
imagination.

Ahh, there's the liberalism, that's the kind of stuff they teach that is
absolutely 100% false. The true God answered when he was called upon as
recorded in the Bible and that God does not change, he still answers today.
You can trace this through the Bible, Old Testament, New Testament, the Acts
of the Apostles, and right up to modern times.

In John 14, vs 11-13
11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or
at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you
the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He
will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory
to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

So, if what Jesus is saying is true, then those who has faith in him are
supposed to be able to do miracles, just like he did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWGlkox7qSw

Have you ever heard in the Bible that God gave the people a pillar of light
to follow through the desert? Here's a book of a man's testimony that was
led out of then communist Romania by following a pillar of light sent by
God.

http://plainviewfarm.tripod.com/WIL1-0.html


...and many lose their faith when they get older,

You say that like its a *bad* thing!

Yes, being eternally separated from your Heavenly Father that loves you
because you believed a lie is a bad thing.

largely due to the teachings of liberals. They believe the liberals
arguments instead of looking up the counter arguments. There is a former
Atheist that was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune (IIRC)
that used his investigative reporting skills on Christianity. Now he
writes books and has debates between the most outspoken Atheists and
Christians, many Atheists come to these debates and become Christians.
They had never heard the other side of the argument before.

Oh pffftphttt!
I see your anecdote and raise you one.

Which number is currently increasing: believers or non-believers?
(Not that a majority indicates truth, mind you)

I'm sure it's non-believers because the Bible said it would happen, the
Bible also says liberalism and homosexuality would increase in the end
times.



RogerN

Keep plugging away, Roger. I hope you've had a pleasant holiday.

--
Jeff R.

RogerN

"John" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:31:58 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
snip
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.

I simply calls em like I see em.

Gunner


The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
indoctrinated with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit
the
mold of a liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for
yourself.
If you have any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism as taught
in schools, then you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals think for
themselves and give the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer, and anyone
that comes up with their own answer isn't thinking for themselves.

RogerN

So how did you escape all of this, Roger? 'Raised by wolves, were you?
Or
didn't you go to school long enough for all of that to happen?

--
Ed Huntress


No, just go to school, think for yourself, and see through the liberal BS.

On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal
attacks
on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the arguments for
being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against dissolving due
to
the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was attacked by liberal
Bible scholars making claims that it was written by different people and
different times, then the complete, or nearly complete, writings of Isaiah
were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and dated, bottom line, the Bible
was right .. again, the liberals were wrong .. again.

RogerN


Roger, I hate to say it but your rationale seem to leap about with the
dexterity if a kangaroo.

In another post you stated that "God had people write down what
happened" and now you say that Liberals claim that it was written by
several people.

Some liberal Bible scholars had claims that the book of Isaiah wasn't
written by Isaiah. They claimed that part was written by one author and
another part was written years later by someone else. So, I guess it wasn't
written by Isaiah, it was written by another man named Isaiah. But the
Bible, the 66 books that make up the Bible, were written by different people
over time. To be clear, I'm not saying that every book was written by a
different person.

Where is the disagreement? God said WRITE and obviously it happened,
we have the book as proof. Whether it was written by one man or a
million monkeys with a million IBM selectrics, if it was done at the
express direction of God then one can only assume that it met with
whatever criteria that he/she/it specified.

There is one problem though if you are going to refer to the "Word of
God". the Moslems have a book that they say was written, actually
dictated, by the Angel Gabriel at the express direction of God. and
since it was the same God, the God of Abraham, it must be equally as
valid as the Jewish books.

Cheers,

John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)

The Muslims book claims that Jesus was a great prophet but that he did not
die and rise from the Dead. Jesus told that he would die and would rise
from the dead. So, if Jesus didn't die and rise from the dead then how
could he be a great prophet as the Muslims claim? If Jesus did actually die
and rise from the dead then he would qualify to be a great prophet but then
the Muslims book would be wrong. Either way, Jesus could not have been a
great prophet and a false prophet both.

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in
m:

The Bible instructs on treatment of a slave but that does not
necessarily mean God is pro slavery. Today we still have slavery but
just a different form of it. Back then a slave worked and in return
got food and shelter, I work so that I can have food and shelter.
Some work and can barely afford food and shelter. If a slave refused
to do his work he would get punished, if an employee refuses to do
their work they get fired and are punished by not getting the money
they need for their food and shelter.

Why don't you go to Nigeria and buy yourself a couple of REAL slaves?

Chattel slavery is still practiced in many parts of the world TODAY and
this practice is unlikely to stopped anytime soon.

Your complaint is the same as the slaves' that were freed by the
Constitutional Amendment. (The Emancipation Proclamation had no effect
upon the status of the many slaves held in Union States.) They had been
fed, clothed, housed, and doctored 12 months out of the year in return
for 6-9 months work and, suddenly, they found themselves having to
provide for themselves by working 12 months out of each year.

A giant difference between the Covenant's rules for slave keeping and
today's employment rules is that an employee can always quit a job and go
elsewhere whereas a male slave was to be given a ONE-TIME option to leave
after 7 years of servitude. This choice did NOT enable him to take with
him any wife that the owner had provided him or any children that he
might have sired. If the slave chose freedom then he was remitted and
sent on his way. If the slave chose to stay then he remained a slave for
life.