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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#41
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Eregon" wrote in message ... Gunner Asch wrote in : High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Personally, I prefer a shotgun with 00 buck for the shorter ranges if there's to be a crowd. grin The old Ithaca 37 definitely has its advantages, especially with the extended mag tube... Even the California Highway patrol got smart and got away from 00 buck. Is actually a bad load for the shell. Go with #1 and get a lot more balls in the case. The 0.30 pack much better than 0.33 balls. And the energy difference is negligible. |
#42
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Eregon wrote:
High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Personally, I prefer a shotgun with 00 buck for the shorter ranges if there's to be a crowd. grin The old Ithaca 37 definitely has its advantages, especially with the extended mag tube... Yah, but it is hard to carry a shotgun in your pants pocket. If I had time to plan, I'd plan to avoid the situation. Wes |
#43
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Wes" wrote in message ... Eregon wrote: High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Personally, I prefer a shotgun with 00 buck for the shorter ranges if there's to be a crowd. grin The old Ithaca 37 definitely has its advantages, especially with the extended mag tube... Yah, but it is hard to carry a shotgun in your pants pocket. If I had time to plan, I'd plan to avoid the situation. Wes Ithaca made a double barrel that was concealable. 1920's mostly for the mob I think. Was the Auto and Burglar gun. 20ga 10" barrels 14.5" overall. http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lo...1-c-06a8997bff |
#44
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Ed Huntress" wrote:
If I want an accurate handgun I pick my revolvers or my T/C Contender depending on use. One of the gun magazines reported at the time that the SSM was the most accurate revolver, out-of-the-box, that they had ever tested. It can shoot a lot straighter than I can. I don't doubt it is very accurate. A solid chunk of metal that keeps your hand steady and a round with enough power for many things that isn't a burden to cope with. Every shooter should have a few reference guns. If you can't shoot well with an intrinsicly accurate rifle or pistol, then the firearm you are playing with may not be at fault if you get lousy results. If I'm playing with a hard recoiling firearm, I like to check myself out shooting an accurate .22 pistol or rifle depending on what I'm playing with. If I can't shoot the ez gun well, I have no business wasting time and money on the hard gun. Wes |
#45
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
cavelamb wrote:
You mean like - now??? I'm almost ready to believe that it was a one-time thing. Will we EVER go back? I hope we don't abandon space. I must have Shatner in my head but it is the 'Final Frontier' and most of us in the US are decended from explorers. It is in our genetics. Wes |
#46
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. |
#47
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Wes sez
"Of course that configuration isn't a tack driver but then the M1911 was designed for close in use. Longer distances, use a rife." Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more accuactely than the average person can hold it. Bob Swinney "Wes" wrote in message ... "RAM³" wrote: "Don Foreman" wrote in message .. . Monday, March 29, is the 99th anniversary of the legendary 1911 semiautomatic pistol designed by John Moses Browning. Excellent write-up snipped for brevity only. You forgot to mention that the M1911 is, still, the *only* firearm shown to pass the tests that resulted in its adoption. While many have complained about the "looseness" of the fit of its parts, the M1911 re'mains the only handgun that will function in spite of mud, sand, etc., under the most extreme conditions. In "the moment of truth" the M1911 *will* function properly. GRIN BTW, an M1911A1 fits each of my hands perfectly... Wes |
#48
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Don,
Clue us in. I'm not familiar with the name "PO8". Bob Swinney "Buerste" wrote in message ... "Don Foreman" wrote in message ... Monday, March 29, is the 99th anniversary of the legendary 1911 semiautomatic pistol designed by John Moses Browning. snip JB had a gift! I have a few of his designs and I appreciate them. I have a P08 that is truely a work of art but hasn't the practicality, durability or ease of mfg. of the 1911. The bad side is that many of my handguns, especially the P08 are now too valuable as "collector" pieces that I'm afraid to use them. The last appraisal I had on the P08 was over $4k, I wish I had one to shoot! |
#49
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Robert Swinney" wrote:
Wes sez "Of course that configuration isn't a tack driver but then the M1911 was designed for close in use. Longer distances, use a rife." Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more accuactely than the average person can hold it. But you just can't drop it in the mud no more. Wes |
#50
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Wes wrote:
cavelamb wrote: You mean like - now??? I'm almost ready to believe that it was a one-time thing. Will we EVER go back? I hope we don't abandon space. I must have Shatner in my head but it is the 'Final Frontier' and most of us in the US are decended from explorers. It is in our genetics. Wes No, Wes, it's in our past. (and there's more where that came from) -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/ |
#51
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Remember they had IBM and DEC computers for some of it.
Slide rule was the fast track but reams of numbers can be generated overnight to be used the next day. Martin - knows something of the Sky Lab Nav-Comm bay... :-) Wes wrote: cavelamb wrote: And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG Karl Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes |
#52
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Robert Swinney" wrote in
: Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more accuactely than the average person can hold it. The same is true with an "issue" M1911A1. The "catch" is that a competition-quality piece won't function well when half full of dust, mud, and/or crud while a true combat weapon will. Grin This is true of any repeating weapon regardless of action type. [Even the "centrifugal" types sometimes discussed on this NG. Grin] |
#53
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Robert Swinney" wrote in
: Clue us in. I'm not familiar with the name "PO8". AKA "Luger" in honor of Georg Luger who designed the piece. Mr. Luger borrowed heavily from the Borchardt design. |
#54
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:04:25 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: "John" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:19:06 -0400, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Ignoramus11443" wrote in message news:vMCdnWWkoaaMhzPWnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews. com... That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i The recoil is completely undramatic. With service loads, it's a little slower to get back on target than a full-size nine, but it doesn't feel heavy to me. I'm been shooting them for just under 40 years and they remain my favorite target pistol. With hardball ammunition? John B. I shoot my .45 with hardball, and with semi-wadcutters and light loads. I don't feel anything qualitatively different with the hardball. I always thought it was me. I'm fairly light; I may just roll with it better than some. My 3-1/2" magnum shotgun leaves me black and blue, and hurting, but I can shoot a .44 magnum handgun with full loads and not suffer from it a bit. It's kind of odd. I assume that you are changing the recoil spring when you change ammunition :-) But more seriously, when I was shooting in matches I don't remember that I was ever conscious of the gun "kicking". What was noticeable when going from say, my center-fire gun to the .45, or from a .45 match to a national trophy (hard-ball) match was the amount of time it took to get back on target. Apparently that wasn't just my perception as in general discussion with other teams the usual excuse as to why someone didn't "leg" that day was that the hard-ball took too much time to get back on target. However, a member of the team brought his brand new S&W 44 magnum out the range one day to show the boys. "Want to shoot it?" he says, and I thought I did. He graciously loaded the gun and handed it to me. The first shot seemed to have no more recoil then .45 wad-cutter loads. Ha! Thinks I, all the B.S. about the .44 mag must be just new shooters. The I fired the next chamber, Who! Ha! The damned gun jumped so far I though it was going over my shoulder. Of course, what he had done was load a light .44 special load in the first chamber and an Elmer Keith load in the second. But he did convince me that the .44 magnum was powerful gun :-) John B. Slocomb |
#55
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote:
cavelamb wrote: And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG Karl Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially available in 1957. |
#56
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On 29 Mar 2010 02:52:43 GMT, "RAM³"
wrote: "Robert Swinney" wrote in m: Clue us in. I'm not familiar with the name "PO8". AKA "Luger" in honor of Georg Luger who designed the piece. Mr. Luger borrowed heavily from the Borchardt design. Very accurate and pleasant to shoot, but somewhat prone to malfunction. I don't own one. I don't own anything too precious to shoot. |
#57
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote: cavelamb wrote: And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG Karl Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially available in 1957. I beg to argue, Don. Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA. And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon 8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations on it. But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine" (not even Assembly!). Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc - but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any such silliness! At least that's the way I remember it... -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/ |
#58
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 15:17:07 -0700, "Bill McKee"
wrote: "Eregon" wrote in message ... Gunner Asch wrote in : High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Personally, I prefer a shotgun with 00 buck for the shorter ranges if there's to be a crowd. grin The old Ithaca 37 definitely has its advantages, especially with the extended mag tube... Even the California Highway patrol got smart and got away from 00 buck. Is actually a bad load for the shell. Go with #1 and get a lot more balls in the case. The 0.30 pack much better than 0.33 balls. And the energy difference is negligible. My house guns carry #4 buck. Its .24 caliber and there are approx 27 shot in a standard 2 3/4" round (12ga) Its effective out to 50 yrds+ and isnt a big overpenetrator like 00 or 000 buck. Works good. Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#59
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#60
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:49:29 -0500, Wes wrote:
"Robert Swinney" wrote: Wes sez "Of course that configuration isn't a tack driver but then the M1911 was designed for close in use. Longer distances, use a rife." Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more accuactely than the average person can hold it. But you just can't drop it in the mud no more. Wes Sure you can. There is a vast difference between Full Accurized Gold Cup Target Weapon and "issued 500 times armory brick" The "half accurized" weapons are very suitable for on the street, drop in da mod and so forth. Full accurized...those are target guns and are finicky little *******s "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#61
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon 8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations on it. But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine" (not even Assembly!). Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc - but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any such silliness! At least that's the way I remember it... I was really in to computers back then. After getting extremely good with fortran, I moved on to a new subject area at that time, industrial simulation with a program called GPSS. Just a bunch of fortran programs really. Anyway, I had this huge model of an auto assembly line and got computer time at 0300 to myself. On the way there, I dropped my monster box of keypunch cards in the wind and mud and lost them all. Took days to repunch all those cards. Shortly after, I decided "to heck with this graduate degree B.S." and got a real job. Karl |
#62
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On 3/29/2010 2:09 AM, cavelamb wrote:
Don Foreman wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote: cavelamb wrote: And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG Karl Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially available in 1957. I beg to argue, Don. Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA. And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon 8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations on it. But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine" (not even Assembly!). Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc - but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any such silliness! At least that's the way I remember it... Much of the design was done with the aid of real computers- analog. The moon landing simulator was 3 EAI 7800 consoles. Kevin Gallimore |
#63
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message ... On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:04:25 -0400, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "John" wrote in message . .. On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:19:06 -0400, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Ignoramus11443" wrote in message news:vMCdnWWkoaaMhzPWnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews .com... That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i The recoil is completely undramatic. With service loads, it's a little slower to get back on target than a full-size nine, but it doesn't feel heavy to me. I'm been shooting them for just under 40 years and they remain my favorite target pistol. With hardball ammunition? John B. I shoot my .45 with hardball, and with semi-wadcutters and light loads. I don't feel anything qualitatively different with the hardball. I always thought it was me. I'm fairly light; I may just roll with it better than some. My 3-1/2" magnum shotgun leaves me black and blue, and hurting, but I can shoot a .44 magnum handgun with full loads and not suffer from it a bit. It's kind of odd. I assume that you are changing the recoil spring when you change ammunition :-) I have multiple springs for my .45; an Ace .22 conversion; a CO2 pellet conversion for shooting in the basement; and a .38 Super barrel from my short stint at shooting plates. But more seriously, when I was shooting in matches I don't remember that I was ever conscious of the gun "kicking". What was noticeable when going from say, my center-fire gun to the .45, or from a .45 match to a national trophy (hard-ball) match was the amount of time it took to get back on target. Yeah, that's about the way I've experienced it, too. Apparently that wasn't just my perception as in general discussion with other teams the usual excuse as to why someone didn't "leg" that day was that the hard-ball took too much time to get back on target. However, a member of the team brought his brand new S&W 44 magnum out the range one day to show the boys. "Want to shoot it?" he says, and I thought I did. He graciously loaded the gun and handed it to me. The first shot seemed to have no more recoil then .45 wad-cutter loads. Ha! Thinks I, all the B.S. about the .44 mag must be just new shooters. The I fired the next chamber, Who! Ha! The damned gun jumped so far I though it was going over my shoulder. Of course, what he had done was load a light .44 special load in the first chamber and an Elmer Keith load in the second. But he did convince me that the .44 magnum was powerful gun :-) John B. Slocomb Fortunately for me, my first try with a .44 Mag was with a Desert Eagle. That monster really tames the recoil. Then I shot a S&W with .44 Mag hunting loads, and it was a different world. But it still wasn't painful or unmanageable. You just need a much looser idea of what it means to "manage." d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
#64
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:01:40 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off? Chances are good that the first would stop most people or convince them to turn around. Those that wouldn't be stopped might not be stopped by the 1st .45 round, either, but why chance it? Do you have a better stat list than this one? The 63-91% stopping power variance on the 9mm seems awfully wide. I tend to think of stats being a somewhat fixed number, don't you? http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren |
#65
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
I didn't see any teabagging going on. They were all wearing
clothes. They mighta been homosexual men, but I didn't see any teabagging. Anyone teabagging with that under age boy would have been committing a crime in most parts of the USA. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... If you can catch teabaggers in the act, you should also bring a friend with a digicam to catch the facial expressions. Here's one typical teabagger, one of the more mature among them. Look at that smug little mug, will ya': "Vulgar Fat Child Attends Teabagging Rally" http://wonkette.com/407874/vulgar-fa...abagging-rally -- Ed Huntress |
#66
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Of course you can! It just won't shoot afterwards.
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Wes" wrote in message ... Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more accuactely than the average person can hold it. But you just can't drop it in the mud no more. Wes |
#67
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
cavelamb wrote in
: Don Foreman wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote: cavelamb wrote: And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG Karl Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially available in 1957. I beg to argue, Don. Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA. And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon 8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations on it. But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine" (not even Assembly!). Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc - but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any such silliness! At least that's the way I remember it... Your memory is faulty. grin In '64 the tiny college in Kingsville, TX, was using an IBM 1620 (with an "astounding" 40K BITS of magnetic core storage) to not only keep the student records and the financial records of the institution but was providing the Celenese plant at Bishop, TX, with accounting services. This was in addition to teaching students to program the machine in machine code, assembly language, Fortran, Fortran With Format, Fortran II, and FORGO (a compile-and-go variant of Fortran). The "Business Schools" of the '66-'70 period often offered Fortran IV and COBOL programming "degrees" to their "students". Cobol, BTW, had already become the standard for business applications. I signed on with the City of Houston as a beginning programmer in early '68 and envied the salaries of those at NASA in Clear Lake. (After all, 50% differential is significant.) While there was some assembler work being done (at both sites) the bulk of the activity was in COBOL with some FORTRAN activity remaining. (Most of the really cute code was already in production by then.) |
#68
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. |
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Mine is far from fully accurized. It is a mere Colt series 70, Mark Four.
Bob Swinney "Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:49:29 -0500, Wes wrote: "Robert Swinney" wrote: Wes sez "Of course that configuration isn't a tack driver but then the M1911 was designed for close in use. Longer distances, use a rife." Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more accuactely than the average person can hold it. But you just can't drop it in the mud no more. Wes Sure you can. There is a vast difference between Full Accurized Gold Cup Target Weapon and "issued 500 times armory brick" The "half accurized" weapons are very suitable for on the street, drop in da mod and so forth. Full accurized...those are target guns and are finicky little *******s "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Ignoramus11443 wrote:
That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? It's a big gentle pussycat with rubber grips. |
#71
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote: Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off? ..2 seconds for the average shooter. I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5' apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much. Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5 seconds Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... I didn't see any teabagging going on. They were all wearing clothes. They mighta been homosexual men, but I didn't see any teabagging. Where did you get the idea that teabagging was a homosexual activity, Chris? Anyone teabagging with that under age boy would have been committing a crime in most parts of the USA. His parents probably should be arrested, then. d8-) -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... If you can catch teabaggers in the act, you should also bring a friend with a digicam to catch the facial expressions. Here's one typical teabagger, one of the more mature among them. Look at that smug little mug, will ya': "Vulgar Fat Child Attends Teabagging Rally" http://wonkette.com/407874/vulgar-fa...abagging-rally -- Ed Huntress |
#73
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Don Foreman wrote:
Most people don't seem to find the recoil of a 1911 to be an issue. There is recoil, but it's "mellow" rather than "sharp" like a .40S&W or 10mm Before I sold it, I took my 16 year old daughter out to a nearby range and let her shoot my Combat Commander. I gave her a brief talk on how to hold it, and she had zero trouble. I shot video from the side, the recoil is apparent, but she had no trouble coming right back down on target. It was btw, the first handgun she ever fired. Jon |
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter. However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue. http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15 http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf You may wish to study this chart.... http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm and review these articles.... http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP ..41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:48:19 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote: Don Foreman wrote: Most people don't seem to find the recoil of a 1911 to be an issue. There is recoil, but it's "mellow" rather than "sharp" like a .40S&W or 10mm Before I sold it, I took my 16 year old daughter out to a nearby range and let her shoot my Combat Commander. I gave her a brief talk on how to hold it, and she had zero trouble. I shot video from the side, the recoil is apparent, but she had no trouble coming right back down on target. It was btw, the first handgun she ever fired. Jon Ive taught literally hundreds of people to shoot handguns, and very few have had any trouble with the .45 My wife 110lbs, 5'2", was rated #2 in the state for a number of years in combat shooting..with full house 230 grain 45 ammo. Its hardly an "uncontrollable beast" Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#76
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter. However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue. http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15 http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf You may wish to study this chart.... http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm and review these articles.... http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. |
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Karl Townsend wrote:
And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon 8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations on it. But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine" (not even Assembly!). Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc - but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any such silliness! At least that's the way I remember it... I was really in to computers back then. After getting extremely good with fortran, I moved on to a new subject area at that time, industrial simulation with a program called GPSS. Just a bunch of fortran programs really. Anyway, I had this huge model of an auto assembly line and got computer time at 0300 to myself. On the way there, I dropped my monster box of keypunch cards in the wind and mud and lost them all. Took days to repunch all those cards. Shortly after, I decided "to heck with this graduate degree B.S." and got a real job. Karl Oh Karl! Don'cha hate when that happens! -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/ |
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Looked up the term on the internet, after someone (probably
an internet friend) told me so. http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=teabagging The answer is R-rated. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... I didn't see any teabagging going on. They were all wearing clothes. They mighta been homosexual men, but I didn't see any teabagging. Where did you get the idea that teabagging was a homosexual activity, Chris? http://wonkette.com/407874/vulgar-fa...abagging-rally |
#79
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... Looked up the term on the internet, after someone (probably an internet friend) told me so. http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=teabagging The answer is R-rated. Yeah. Here's one of their examples: "Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward." Better luck next time, Chris. -- Ed Huntress -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... I didn't see any teabagging going on. They were all wearing clothes. They mighta been homosexual men, but I didn't see any teabagging. Where did you get the idea that teabagging was a homosexual activity, Chris? http://wonkette.com/407874/vulgar-fa...abagging-rally |
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
RAM³ wrote:
cavelamb wrote in : Don Foreman wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote: cavelamb wrote: And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG Karl Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially available in 1957. I beg to argue, Don. Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA. And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon 8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations on it. But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine" (not even Assembly!). Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc - but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any such silliness! At least that's the way I remember it... Your memory is faulty. grin In '64 the tiny college in Kingsville, TX, was using an IBM 1620 (with an "astounding" 40K BITS of magnetic core storage) to not only keep the student records and the financial records of the institution but was providing the Celenese plant at Bishop, TX, with accounting services. This was in addition to teaching students to program the machine in machine code, assembly language, Fortran, Fortran With Format, Fortran II, and FORGO (a compile-and-go variant of Fortran). The "Business Schools" of the '66-'70 period often offered Fortran IV and COBOL programming "degrees" to their "students". Cobol, BTW, had already become the standard for business applications. I signed on with the City of Houston as a beginning programmer in early '68 and envied the salaries of those at NASA in Clear Lake. (After all, 50% differential is significant.) While there was some assembler work being done (at both sites) the bulk of the activity was in COBOL with some FORTRAN activity remaining. (Most of the really cute code was already in production by then.) I was referring to NASA, but ok, won't make a federal case out of it. But the NASA stuff - oh boy - orbital rendezvous, burn times and attitudes, mission stuff - once that was pretty much debugged, it became holy code. You know that once someone got a program running it would be used forever. (witness the Y2K scare in commercial circles) So while the new kids came in with their fancy new languages, the old geezers who wrote the original stuff kept right on banging bits together. And if we go back to the early missions like Mercury... Rock for zero, stick for one... -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/ |
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