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"Eregon" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote in
:



High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Personally, I prefer a shotgun with 00 buck for the shorter ranges if
there's to be a crowd. grin

The old Ithaca 37 definitely has its advantages, especially with the
extended mag tube...


Even the California Highway patrol got smart and got away from 00 buck. Is
actually a bad load for the shell. Go with #1 and get a lot more balls in
the case. The 0.30 pack much better than 0.33 balls. And the energy
difference is negligible.


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Eregon wrote:

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Personally, I prefer a shotgun with 00 buck for the shorter ranges if
there's to be a crowd. grin

The old Ithaca 37 definitely has its advantages, especially with the
extended mag tube...



Yah, but it is hard to carry a shotgun in your pants pocket. If I had time to plan, I'd
plan to avoid the situation.

Wes
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"Wes" wrote in message
...
Eregon wrote:

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Personally, I prefer a shotgun with 00 buck for the shorter ranges if
there's to be a crowd. grin

The old Ithaca 37 definitely has its advantages, especially with the
extended mag tube...



Yah, but it is hard to carry a shotgun in your pants pocket. If I had
time to plan, I'd
plan to avoid the situation.

Wes


Ithaca made a double barrel that was concealable. 1920's mostly for the mob
I think. Was the Auto and Burglar gun. 20ga 10" barrels 14.5" overall.
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lo...1-c-06a8997bff


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"Ed Huntress" wrote:

If I want an accurate handgun I pick my revolvers or my T/C Contender
depending on use.


One of the gun magazines reported at the time that the SSM was the most
accurate revolver, out-of-the-box, that they had ever tested. It can shoot a
lot straighter than I can.


I don't doubt it is very accurate. A solid chunk of metal that keeps your hand steady and
a round with enough power for many things that isn't a burden to cope with.

Every shooter should have a few reference guns. If you can't shoot well with an
intrinsicly accurate rifle or pistol, then the firearm you are playing with may not be at
fault if you get lousy results.

If I'm playing with a hard recoiling firearm, I like to check myself out shooting an
accurate .22 pistol or rifle depending on what I'm playing with. If I can't shoot the ez
gun well, I have no business wasting time and money on the hard gun.

Wes
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cavelamb wrote:

You mean like - now???

I'm almost ready to believe that it was a one-time thing.

Will we EVER go back?


I hope we don't abandon space. I must have Shatner in my head but it is the 'Final
Frontier' and most of us in the US are decended from explorers. It is in our genetics.

Wes


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Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i


I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.


High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.
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Wes sez
"Of course that configuration isn't a tack driver but then the M1911 was designed for close
in use. Longer distances, use a rife."

Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more
accuactely than the average person can hold it.

Bob Swinney

"Wes" wrote in message ...
"RAM³" wrote:

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
Monday, March 29, is the 99th anniversary of the legendary 1911
semiautomatic pistol designed by John Moses Browning.


Excellent write-up snipped for brevity only.

You forgot to mention that the M1911 is, still, the *only* firearm shown to
pass the tests that resulted in its adoption.

While many have complained about the "looseness" of the fit of its parts,
the M1911 re'mains the only handgun that will function in spite of mud, sand,
etc., under the most extreme conditions.

In "the moment of truth" the M1911 *will* function properly. GRIN

BTW, an M1911A1 fits each of my hands perfectly...



Wes

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Don,

Clue us in. I'm not familiar with the name "PO8".

Bob Swinney
"Buerste" wrote in message ...

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
Monday, March 29, is the 99th anniversary of the legendary 1911
semiautomatic pistol designed by John Moses Browning.

snip

JB had a gift! I have a few of his designs and I appreciate them. I have a
P08 that is truely a work of art but hasn't the practicality, durability or
ease of mfg. of the 1911. The bad side is that many of my handguns,
especially the P08 are now too valuable as "collector" pieces that I'm
afraid to use them. The last appraisal I had on the P08 was over $4k, I
wish I had one to shoot!


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"Robert Swinney" wrote:

Wes sez
"Of course that configuration isn't a tack driver but then the M1911 was designed for close
in use. Longer distances, use a rife."

Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more
accuactely than the average person can hold it.



But you just can't drop it in the mud no more.

Wes
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Wes wrote:
cavelamb wrote:

You mean like - now???

I'm almost ready to believe that it was a one-time thing.

Will we EVER go back?


I hope we don't abandon space. I must have Shatner in my head but it is the 'Final
Frontier' and most of us in the US are decended from explorers. It is in our genetics.

Wes


No, Wes, it's in our past.

(and there's more where that came from)
--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/



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Remember they had IBM and DEC computers for some of it.
Slide rule was the fast track but reams of numbers can be generated
overnight to be used the next day.

Martin - knows something of the Sky Lab Nav-Comm bay... :-)

Wes wrote:
cavelamb wrote:

And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG

Karl




Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.



I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific
calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes

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"Robert Swinney" wrote in
:

Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will
"shoot" with a lot more accuactely than the average person can hold
it.


The same is true with an "issue" M1911A1.

The "catch" is that a competition-quality piece won't function well when
half full of dust, mud, and/or crud while a true combat weapon will. Grin

This is true of any repeating weapon regardless of action type. [Even the
"centrifugal" types sometimes discussed on this NG. Grin]
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"Robert Swinney" wrote in
:

Clue us in. I'm not familiar with the name "PO8".


AKA "Luger" in honor of Georg Luger who designed the piece.

Mr. Luger borrowed heavily from the Borchardt design.
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On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:04:25 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"John" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:19:06 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Ignoramus11443" wrote in message
news:vMCdnWWkoaaMhzPWnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews. com...
That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

The recoil is completely undramatic. With service loads, it's a little
slower to get back on target than a full-size nine, but it doesn't feel
heavy to me. I'm been shooting them for just under 40 years and they
remain
my favorite target pistol.



With hardball ammunition?

John B.


I shoot my .45 with hardball, and with semi-wadcutters and light loads. I
don't feel anything qualitatively different with the hardball.

I always thought it was me. I'm fairly light; I may just roll with it better
than some. My 3-1/2" magnum shotgun leaves me black and blue, and hurting,
but I can shoot a .44 magnum handgun with full loads and not suffer from it
a bit. It's kind of odd.


I assume that you are changing the recoil spring when you change
ammunition :-)

But more seriously, when I was shooting in matches I don't remember
that I was ever conscious of the gun "kicking". What was noticeable
when going from say, my center-fire gun to the .45, or from a .45
match to a national trophy (hard-ball) match was the amount of time it
took to get back on target.

Apparently that wasn't just my perception as in general discussion
with other teams the usual excuse as to why someone didn't "leg" that
day was that the hard-ball took too much time to get back on target.

However, a member of the team brought his brand new S&W 44 magnum out
the range one day to show the boys. "Want to shoot it?" he says, and I
thought I did. He graciously loaded the gun and handed it to me. The
first shot seemed to have no more recoil then .45 wad-cutter loads.
Ha! Thinks I, all the B.S. about the .44 mag must be just new
shooters. The I fired the next chamber, Who! Ha! The damned gun jumped
so far I though it was going over my shoulder.

Of course, what he had done was load a light .44 special load in the
first chamber and an Elmer Keith load in the second. But he did
convince me that the .44 magnum was powerful gun :-)

John B. Slocomb
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On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote:

cavelamb wrote:

And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG

Karl





Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.



I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific
calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes

That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden
calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially
available in 1957.


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On 29 Mar 2010 02:52:43 GMT, "RAM³"
wrote:

"Robert Swinney" wrote in
m:

Clue us in. I'm not familiar with the name "PO8".


AKA "Luger" in honor of Georg Luger who designed the piece.

Mr. Luger borrowed heavily from the Borchardt design.


Very accurate and pleasant to shoot, but somewhat prone to
malfunction. I don't own one. I don't own anything too precious to
shoot.
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Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote:

cavelamb wrote:

And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG

Karl




Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.


I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific
calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes

That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden
calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially
available in 1957.



I beg to argue, Don.

Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a
woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA.

And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon
8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations
on it.

But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not
widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine"
(not even Assembly!).

Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc -
but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any
such silliness!


At least that's the way I remember it...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

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On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 15:17:07 -0700, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Eregon" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote in
:



High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Personally, I prefer a shotgun with 00 buck for the shorter ranges if
there's to be a crowd. grin

The old Ithaca 37 definitely has its advantages, especially with the
extended mag tube...


Even the California Highway patrol got smart and got away from 00 buck. Is
actually a bad load for the shell. Go with #1 and get a lot more balls in
the case. The 0.30 pack much better than 0.33 balls. And the energy
difference is negligible.

My house guns carry #4 buck. Its .24 caliber and there are approx 27
shot in a standard 2 3/4" round (12ga)

Its effective out to 50 yrds+ and isnt a big overpenetrator like 00 or
000 buck.

Works good.


Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
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On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.


High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.


Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
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On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:49:29 -0500, Wes wrote:

"Robert Swinney" wrote:

Wes sez
"Of course that configuration isn't a tack driver but then the M1911 was designed for close
in use. Longer distances, use a rife."

Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more
accuactely than the average person can hold it.



But you just can't drop it in the mud no more.

Wes



Sure you can. There is a vast difference between Full Accurized Gold
Cup Target Weapon and "issued 500 times armory brick"

The "half accurized" weapons are very suitable for on the street, drop
in da mod and so forth.

Full accurized...those are target guns and are finicky little *******s



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


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And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon
8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations
on it.

But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not
widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine"
(not even Assembly!).

Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc -
but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any
such silliness!


At least that's the way I remember it...


I was really in to computers back then. After getting extremely good with
fortran, I moved on to a new subject area at that time, industrial
simulation with a program called GPSS. Just a bunch of fortran programs
really. Anyway, I had this huge model of an auto assembly line and got
computer time at 0300 to myself. On the way there, I dropped my monster box
of keypunch cards in the wind and mud and lost them all. Took days to
repunch all those cards. Shortly after, I decided "to heck with this
graduate degree B.S." and got a real job.

Karl


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On 3/29/2010 2:09 AM, cavelamb wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote:

cavelamb wrote:

And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG

Karl




Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.


I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had
a scientific
calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes

That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden
calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially
available in 1957.



I beg to argue, Don.

Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a
woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA.

And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon
8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations
on it.

But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not
widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine"
(not even Assembly!).

Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc -
but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any
such silliness!


At least that's the way I remember it...



Much of the design was done with the aid of real computers- analog. The
moon landing simulator was 3 EAI 7800 consoles.

Kevin Gallimore

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"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 14:04:25 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"John" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:19:06 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Ignoramus11443" wrote in message
news:vMCdnWWkoaaMhzPWnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews .com...
That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

The recoil is completely undramatic. With service loads, it's a little
slower to get back on target than a full-size nine, but it doesn't feel
heavy to me. I'm been shooting them for just under 40 years and they
remain
my favorite target pistol.


With hardball ammunition?

John B.


I shoot my .45 with hardball, and with semi-wadcutters and light loads. I
don't feel anything qualitatively different with the hardball.

I always thought it was me. I'm fairly light; I may just roll with it
better
than some. My 3-1/2" magnum shotgun leaves me black and blue, and hurting,
but I can shoot a .44 magnum handgun with full loads and not suffer from
it
a bit. It's kind of odd.


I assume that you are changing the recoil spring when you change
ammunition :-)


I have multiple springs for my .45; an Ace .22 conversion; a CO2 pellet
conversion for shooting in the basement; and a .38 Super barrel from my
short stint at shooting plates.


But more seriously, when I was shooting in matches I don't remember
that I was ever conscious of the gun "kicking". What was noticeable
when going from say, my center-fire gun to the .45, or from a .45
match to a national trophy (hard-ball) match was the amount of time it
took to get back on target.


Yeah, that's about the way I've experienced it, too.


Apparently that wasn't just my perception as in general discussion
with other teams the usual excuse as to why someone didn't "leg" that
day was that the hard-ball took too much time to get back on target.

However, a member of the team brought his brand new S&W 44 magnum out
the range one day to show the boys. "Want to shoot it?" he says, and I
thought I did. He graciously loaded the gun and handed it to me. The
first shot seemed to have no more recoil then .45 wad-cutter loads.
Ha! Thinks I, all the B.S. about the .44 mag must be just new
shooters. The I fired the next chamber, Who! Ha! The damned gun jumped
so far I though it was going over my shoulder.

Of course, what he had done was load a light .44 special load in the
first chamber and an Elmer Keith load in the second. But he did
convince me that the .44 magnum was powerful gun :-)

John B. Slocomb


Fortunately for me, my first try with a .44 Mag was with a Desert Eagle.
That monster really tames the recoil. Then I shot a S&W with .44 Mag hunting
loads, and it was a different world. But it still wasn't painful or
unmanageable. You just need a much looser idea of what it means to "manage."
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


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On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:01:40 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.


Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm


And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off?
Chances are good that the first would stop most people or convince
them to turn around. Those that wouldn't be stopped might not be
stopped by the 1st .45 round, either, but why chance it?

Do you have a better stat list than this one? The 63-91% stopping
power variance on the 9mm seems awfully wide. I tend to think of stats
being a somewhat fixed number, don't you?
http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren
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I didn't see any teabagging going on. They were all wearing
clothes. They mighta been homosexual men, but I didn't see
any teabagging. Anyone teabagging with that under age boy
would have been committing a crime in most parts of the USA.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
If you can catch teabaggers in the act, you should also
bring a friend with a digicam to catch the facial
expressions.


Here's one typical teabagger, one of the more mature among
them. Look at
that smug little mug, will ya':

"Vulgar Fat Child Attends Teabagging Rally"

http://wonkette.com/407874/vulgar-fa...abagging-rally

--
Ed Huntress





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Of course you can! It just won't shoot afterwards.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Wes" wrote in message
...
Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new
clones will "shoot" with a lot more
accuactely than the average person can hold it.



But you just can't drop it in the mud no more.

Wes


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cavelamb wrote in
:

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote:

cavelamb wrote:

And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG

Karl




Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.


I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers
had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes

That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden
calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially
available in 1957.



I beg to argue, Don.

Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a
woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA.

And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon
8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations
on it.

But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not
widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine"
(not even Assembly!).

Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc -
but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any
such silliness!


At least that's the way I remember it...



Your memory is faulty. grin

In '64 the tiny college in Kingsville, TX, was using an IBM 1620 (with an
"astounding" 40K BITS of magnetic core storage) to not only keep the
student records and the financial records of the institution but was
providing the Celenese plant at Bishop, TX, with accounting services.

This was in addition to teaching students to program the machine in
machine code, assembly language, Fortran, Fortran With Format, Fortran
II, and FORGO (a compile-and-go variant of Fortran).

The "Business Schools" of the '66-'70 period often offered Fortran IV and
COBOL programming "degrees" to their "students". Cobol, BTW, had already
become the standard for business applications.

I signed on with the City of Houston as a beginning programmer in early
'68 and envied the salaries of those at NASA in Clear Lake. (After all,
50% differential is significant.) While there was some assembler work
being done (at both sites) the bulk of the activity was in COBOL with
some FORTRAN activity remaining. (Most of the really cute code was
already in production by then.)
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Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.


Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm


I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject
with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject
with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy
vs. Dodge.
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Mine is far from fully accurized. It is a mere Colt series 70, Mark Four.

Bob Swinney
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:49:29 -0500, Wes wrote:

"Robert Swinney" wrote:

Wes sez
"Of course that configuration isn't a tack driver but then the M1911 was designed for close
in use. Longer distances, use a rife."

Good point, Wes. But an accurized 1911 or one of the new clones will "shoot" with a lot more
accuactely than the average person can hold it.



But you just can't drop it in the mud no more.

Wes



Sure you can. There is a vast difference between Full Accurized Gold
Cup Target Weapon and "issued 500 times armory brick"

The "half accurized" weapons are very suitable for on the street, drop
in da mod and so forth.

Full accurized...those are target guns and are finicky little *******s



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

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Ignoramus11443 wrote:
That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?


It's a big gentle pussycat with rubber grips.



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On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.


Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm


And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off?


..2 seconds for the average shooter.

I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5'
apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition
shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much.

Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much
much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5
seconds

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I didn't see any teabagging going on. They were all wearing
clothes. They mighta been homosexual men, but I didn't see
any teabagging.


Where did you get the idea that teabagging was a homosexual activity, Chris?

Anyone teabagging with that under age boy
would have been committing a crime in most parts of the USA.


His parents probably should be arrested, then. d8-)



--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
If you can catch teabaggers in the act, you should also
bring a friend with a digicam to catch the facial
expressions.


Here's one typical teabagger, one of the more mature among
them. Look at
that smug little mug, will ya':

"Vulgar Fat Child Attends Teabagging Rally"

http://wonkette.com/407874/vulgar-fa...abagging-rally

--
Ed Huntress





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Don Foreman wrote:

Most people don't seem to find the recoil of a 1911 to be an issue.
There is recoil, but it's "mellow" rather than "sharp" like a .40S&W
or 10mm


Before I sold it, I took my 16 year old daughter out to a nearby range
and let her shoot my Combat Commander. I gave her a brief talk on how to
hold it, and she had zero trouble. I shot video from the side, the
recoil is apparent, but she had no trouble coming right back down on
target. It was btw, the first handgun she ever fired.


Jon
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On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.


Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm


I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject
with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject
with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy
vs. Dodge.


the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter.

However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You may wish to study this chart....

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

and review these articles....

http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
..41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
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On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:48:19 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

Most people don't seem to find the recoil of a 1911 to be an issue.
There is recoil, but it's "mellow" rather than "sharp" like a .40S&W
or 10mm


Before I sold it, I took my 16 year old daughter out to a nearby range
and let her shoot my Combat Commander. I gave her a brief talk on how to
hold it, and she had zero trouble. I shot video from the side, the
recoil is apparent, but she had no trouble coming right back down on
target. It was btw, the first handgun she ever fired.


Jon



Ive taught literally hundreds of people to shoot handguns, and very few
have had any trouble with the .45

My wife 110lbs, 5'2", was rated #2 in the state for a number of years
in combat shooting..with full house 230 grain 45 ammo.

Its hardly an "uncontrollable beast"


Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


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Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm


I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject
with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject
with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy
vs. Dodge.


the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter.

However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You may wish to study this chart....

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

and review these articles....

http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres


My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.
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Karl Townsend wrote:
And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon
8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations
on it.

But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not
widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine"
(not even Assembly!).

Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc -
but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any
such silliness!


At least that's the way I remember it...


I was really in to computers back then. After getting extremely good with
fortran, I moved on to a new subject area at that time, industrial
simulation with a program called GPSS. Just a bunch of fortran programs
really. Anyway, I had this huge model of an auto assembly line and got
computer time at 0300 to myself. On the way there, I dropped my monster box
of keypunch cards in the wind and mud and lost them all. Took days to
repunch all those cards. Shortly after, I decided "to heck with this
graduate degree B.S." and got a real job.

Karl




Oh Karl!
Don'cha hate when that happens!


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

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Looked up the term on the internet, after someone (probably
an internet friend) told me so.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=teabagging
The answer is R-rated.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
I didn't see any teabagging going on. They were all wearing
clothes. They mighta been homosexual men, but I didn't see
any teabagging.


Where did you get the idea that teabagging was a homosexual
activity, Chris?


http://wonkette.com/407874/vulgar-fa...abagging-rally




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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Looked up the term on the internet, after someone (probably
an internet friend) told me so.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=teabagging
The answer is R-rated.


Yeah. Here's one of their examples:

"Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward."

Better luck next time, Chris.

--
Ed Huntress


--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
I didn't see any teabagging going on. They were all wearing
clothes. They mighta been homosexual men, but I didn't see
any teabagging.


Where did you get the idea that teabagging was a homosexual
activity, Chris?


http://wonkette.com/407874/vulgar-fa...abagging-rally






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RAM³ wrote:
cavelamb wrote in
:

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote:

cavelamb wrote:

And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG

Karl



Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.

I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers
had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes
That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden
calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially
available in 1957.


I beg to argue, Don.

Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a
woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA.

And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon
8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations
on it.

But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not
widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine"
(not even Assembly!).

Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc -
but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any
such silliness!


At least that's the way I remember it...



Your memory is faulty. grin

In '64 the tiny college in Kingsville, TX, was using an IBM 1620 (with an
"astounding" 40K BITS of magnetic core storage) to not only keep the
student records and the financial records of the institution but was
providing the Celenese plant at Bishop, TX, with accounting services.

This was in addition to teaching students to program the machine in
machine code, assembly language, Fortran, Fortran With Format, Fortran
II, and FORGO (a compile-and-go variant of Fortran).

The "Business Schools" of the '66-'70 period often offered Fortran IV and
COBOL programming "degrees" to their "students". Cobol, BTW, had already
become the standard for business applications.

I signed on with the City of Houston as a beginning programmer in early
'68 and envied the salaries of those at NASA in Clear Lake. (After all,
50% differential is significant.) While there was some assembler work
being done (at both sites) the bulk of the activity was in COBOL with
some FORTRAN activity remaining. (Most of the really cute code was
already in production by then.)


I was referring to NASA, but ok, won't make a federal case out of it.


But the NASA stuff - oh boy - orbital rendezvous, burn times and attitudes,
mission stuff - once that was pretty much debugged, it became holy code.

You know that once someone got a program running it would be used forever.
(witness the Y2K scare in commercial circles)

So while the new kids came in with their fancy new languages, the old geezers
who wrote the original stuff kept right on banging bits together.

And if we go back to the early missions like Mercury...
Rock for zero, stick for one...



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

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