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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#82
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OT - The Lancet's Vaccine Retraction -- A medical journal's role in the autism scare
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#83
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OT - The Lancet's Vaccine Retraction -- A medical journal's role in the autism scare
"Eregon" wrote in message ... lid wrote in : On 05 Feb 2010 18:03:00 GMT, Eregon wrote: The best thing to do with hemophiliacs is to let them bleed to death _before_ they pass along that genetic defect. This is exactly the eugenics attitude and goal that the drug companies followed when they knowingly distributed the tainted blood factor medicines they had produced. Normal people generally view this as murder.....not that you are normal. Dave You're quite wrong in both of your ass/umptions, Davy Boy. Only YOU mentioned anything resembling "treatment". grin In an over-populated world such as ours, there are lots of things that we can all do without: queers, hemophiliacs, "progressive elements" (an old Soviet euphemism), crooks, gang-bangers, malaria, cancer, Greenies, etc. Fortunately for the sake of the republic, the conservatives are going to start pushing their end of the life expectancy scale downward. It's been discovered that sausage gravy and chicken-fried steak are direct links to massive heart attacks. Wisely, the medical researchers are keeping it close to the vest. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
#84
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OT - Turkeys Voting for Christmas -- was The Lancet's Vaccine Retraction -- A medical journal's role in the autism scare
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 12:51:47 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:46:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll" wrote: wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:40:56 -0800, "John R. Carroll" wrote: wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll" wrote: wrote: I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2 million. The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last decade wih this defect than every other maunfacturer combined. That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites? NPR here in LA had an hour on this last week. SHAPIRO: What, specifically, is the committee looking at here? LANGFITT: Well, they're asking for lots of documents. And what they've said, is they want to know when Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration first learned about these potential safety problems and what they did to investigate and try to resolve them. Now the committee said this in a statement, I'm kind of quoting here, our government figures show nearly twice as many people died in Toyotas from sudden acceleration problems in the last decade than in cars from all other automakers combined. So thats another thing theyre really very interested in, is the number and the volume and how many of those are Toyotas. http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/...ryId=123098947. Well, there you go. The guy said he was "kind of quoting", and I can't find anything to back up his recollection. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/defects/ J.R.C. (above): "The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last decade with this defect than every other manufacturer combined." By posting a link to the NHTSA site, are you trying to say that one can find evidence of your assertion there? You can get the testimony of any hearing, reports and a lot of other information. Sure. But the data needs to be mined, and I don't see how that mining could ever support Lingfiit's claim. Obviously the Times felt the need to qualify their conclusion, since there couldn't be NTSB-level investigations of most of the accidents. And even if there had been, those investigations could at best only point to possible accelerator-issue involvement. Then why not post the link to that search, or at least the details of how you or Langfiit arrived at your conclusion? He attended the hearings as part of his job. That is why he was on the show - to share his observations. He's a responsible journalist with a good record and my experiance with his reporting has indicated that he's truthful. I don't doubt that, but his statement that he was "kind of quoting" shouldn't count for much unless he or you can show the actual results of the data mining. Why do you suppose that the LA Times, who apparently mined the same data, didn't get the same results? And why do you think that they used the very qualified phrase "related to possible sudden acceleration", while you were able to be so definitive? I'd post the material, it's one ot the links on the page references, but can't open the file on this computer. I get a "corrupt file" message. I know why that is an it's not the file, it's this box and the software product combination running on it. I'll publish it here when I'm able. I'm working a project on the base at Pendleton and only have this box with me. I'm only posting at all through a VPN, something I learned to be sure and set up after my first trip to Iraq. By now there's no question that the situation has been exaggerated, and we're only at the beginning of what promises to be the mother of all be-vewwwy-afraid hype bonanzas. I'm looking forward to seeing any factual evidence you have in order to estimate how much exaggeration. In the meantime, here are some previews of the types of issues that will be generated. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cjm_18.htm http://www.autosafety.org/audi-sudden-acceleration Last line of the second article: "In closing the investigation, one factor NHTSA relied upon was the fact that there had been three recalls and a service campaign attempting to correct the human factors design errors; 87V-008, 87V-009, and 87V-170. None of these recalls eliminated sudden acceleration in the Audi 5000." And it will be the same this time, because when you have millions of vehicles, it's predictable that a small percentage of their drivers will perform some interesting tricks with them, and then try to blame the car. In fact, it would be a miracle if there *weren't* hundreds of attempts to blame the car. BTW, the initial reports of "possible medical issues" in the runaway vehicle example I quoted yesterday have been revised. http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/mai...icleID=3599 0 I mention that to point out how subjective these reports can be. And check out the comments... there's already speculation about the Pontiac Vibe being subject of the recall. I wonder what the driver's defense will be based on? sigh Wayne |
#85
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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OT - Turkeys Voting for Christmas -- was The Lancet's Vaccine Retraction -- A medical journal's role in the autism scare
wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 12:51:47 -0800, "John R. Carroll" wrote: wrote: On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:46:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll" wrote: wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:40:56 -0800, "John R. Carroll" wrote: wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll" wrote: wrote: I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2 million. The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last decade wih this defect than every other maunfacturer combined. That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites? NPR here in LA had an hour on this last week. SHAPIRO: What, specifically, is the committee looking at here? LANGFITT: Well, they're asking for lots of documents. And what they've said, is they want to know when Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration first learned about these potential safety problems and what they did to investigate and try to resolve them. Now the committee said this in a statement, I'm kind of quoting here, our government figures show nearly twice as many people died in Toyotas from sudden acceleration problems in the last decade than in cars from all other automakers combined. So thats another thing theyre really very interested in, is the number and the volume and how many of those are Toyotas. http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/...ryId=123098947. Well, there you go. The guy said he was "kind of quoting", and I can't find anything to back up his recollection. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/defects/ J.R.C. (above): "The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last decade with this defect than every other manufacturer combined." By posting a link to the NHTSA site, are you trying to say that one can find evidence of your assertion there? You can get the testimony of any hearing, reports and a lot of other information. Sure. But the data needs to be mined, and I don't see how that mining could ever support Lingfiit's claim. It isn't either his claim or mine. It's something that was given in testimony at the hearings he attended. I should have poined that out in my original post. -- John R. Carroll |
#86
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OT - Turkeys Voting for Christmas -- was The Lancet's Vaccine Retraction -- A medical journal's role in the autism scare
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:45:11 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 5, 9:56*am, Frnak McKenney wrote: XMetal-Content: accelerator pedal, cable, wrecked Toyota [...] Background of Toyota discussion snipped I know that if I were a Toyota owner I'd want to know as early as possible (a) if I were likely to be affected, (b) warning signs so I could avoid the problem before it occurred, and (c) what to do if the problem occurred anyway. [...] I'm not talking about a massive recall. *That might or might not have been appropriate early on, depending on what Toyota knew about the problem and when. I'm thinking of a simple letter -- illustrated with Charts'n'Diagrams -- describing: [...] Mailing such a letter -- and having the information broadcast through the USDOT, state xxDOTs, and the media -- would (hopefully) have two effects: 1) Demonstrate Toyota's concern with its customers (useful in any possible upcoming lawsuits), and 2) Decrease the number of persons killed or injured. [...] I think it's time for another mug of tea. Frank McKenney Good comments. Thanks, TMT. I appreciate the feedback. I agree that more info needs to be presented to the user. That will not happen...unless forced. The more the company admits to the problem, the larger the economic hit due to lawsuits. So companies hide the bad news until it blows up in their face. Sounds like the same kind of situation that so many politicians have faced... and then tried to cover up. The "accepted wisdom" as voiced by the media is that it's better to come clean early on and then do one's best to "work past it", but I can understand why that's hard for most people to do in practice. "Going public" with a problem -- of any kind, to any audience -- is long-term thinking, and long-term thinking requires some kind of faith in the future. It requires a belief that dealing with the consequences of one's screwup, however bad it might have been, are _not_ the worst thing that could happen. For small screwups this is easier, as the consequences are generally smaller; being able to deal with the really big stuff requires believing in something larger and more important than one's self. The other problem is even if the info is out there, few people pay attention and will respond properly during an unexpected event. This is one place where I believe that directed communication can be more effective than a simple "broadcast" of information. You want (anyway, _I_ would want grin!) this mythical letter to be directed specifically to the owners of any potentially affected Toyota models/years, perhaps followed up by robot-calls to make sure the letter was received. Sure, follow up with a general announcement directed at the media, but the key would be to directly address those likely to be affected, rather than informing (harassing?) the general public. Now, I admit that I'm speaking from a position rather distant from the fray (and today, a somewhat snow-covered one grin!), since I don't own a Toyota and I don't run the company. Still, I'd think that owners would be more reassured by hearing about a problem first in writing, from the manufacturer, and directed at them personally, than they would be by hearing rumors from the media, politicians, and bureaucrats. If the company missive gets there first, the company might be seen as "screwing up but concerned"; otherwise, they're "uncaring and had to be forced". When you are dealing with a multi thousand pound missile driven by the typical driver, the last problems you want are unexpected acceleration or lack of deceleration. TMT Agreed. And you can't expect every driver to always be expertly trained on handling vehicular emergencies and constantly aware of every facet of driving: the road, the vehicle's behavior, other vehicles (visible and not-yet-visible), passengers, pedestians, falling trees, etc. By the same token, you cannot absolutely guarantee that every potential design flaw in a vehicle is identified and fixed before that vehicle hits the showroom. It's a tough universe. Frank -- Never test the depth of the water with both feet. -- Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887 Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all) |
#87
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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OT - Turkeys Voting for Christmas -- was The Lancet's VaccineRetraction -- A medical journal's role in the autism scare
On Feb 6, 10:39*am, Frnak McKenney
wrote: On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:45:11 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools wrote: On Feb 5, 9:56*am, Frnak McKenney wrote: XMetal-Content: accelerator pedal, cable, wrecked Toyota * *[...] Background of Toyota discussion snipped I know that if I were a Toyota owner I'd want to know as early as possible (a) if I were likely to be affected, (b) warning signs so I could avoid the problem before it occurred, and (c) what to do if the problem occurred anyway. * *[...] I'm not talking about a massive recall. *That might or might not have been appropriate early on, depending on what Toyota knew about the problem and when. I'm thinking of a simple letter -- illustrated with Charts'n'Diagrams -- describing: * *[...] Mailing such a letter -- and having the information broadcast through the USDOT, state xxDOTs, and the media -- would (hopefully) have two effects: *1) Demonstrate Toyota's concern with its customers (useful in any * * possible upcoming lawsuits), and *2) Decrease the number of persons killed or injured. * *[...] I think it's time for another mug of tea. Frank McKenney Good comments. Thanks, TMT. I appreciate the feedback. I agree that more info needs to be presented to the user. That will not happen...unless forced. The more the company admits to the problem, the larger the economic hit due to lawsuits. So companies hide the bad news until it blows up in their face. Sounds like the same kind of situation that so many politicians have faced... *and then tried to cover up. *The "accepted wisdom" as voiced by the media is that it's better to come clean early on and then do one's best to "work past it", but I can understand why that's hard for most people to do in practice. "Going public" with a problem -- of any kind, to any audience -- is long-term thinking, and long-term thinking requires some kind of faith in the future. *It requires a belief that dealing with the consequences of one's screwup, however bad it might have been, are _not_ the worst thing that could happen. *For small screwups this is easier, as the consequences are generally smaller; being able to deal with the really big stuff requires believing in something larger and more important than one's self. The other problem is even if the info is out there, few people pay attention and will respond properly during an unexpected event. This is one place where I believe that directed communication can be more effective than a simple "broadcast" of information. *You want (anyway, _I_ would want grin!) this mythical letter to be directed specifically to the owners of any potentially affected Toyota models/years, perhaps followed up by robot-calls to make sure the letter was received. Sure, follow up with a general announcement directed at the media, but the key would be to directly address those likely to be affected, rather than informing (harassing?) the general public. Now, I admit that I'm speaking from a position rather distant from the fray (and today, a somewhat snow-covered one grin!), since I don't own a Toyota and I don't run the company. *Still, I'd think that owners would be more reassured by hearing about a problem first in writing, from the manufacturer, and directed at them personally, than they would be by hearing rumors from the media, politicians, and bureaucrats. *If the company missive gets there first, the company might be seen as "screwing up but concerned"; otherwise, they're "uncaring and had to be forced". When you are dealing with a multi thousand pound missile driven by the typical driver, the last problems you want are unexpected acceleration or lack of deceleration. TMT Agreed. *And you can't expect every driver to always be expertly trained on handling vehicular emergencies and constantly aware of every facet of driving: the road, the vehicle's behavior, other vehicles (visible and not-yet-visible), passengers, pedestians, falling trees, etc. *By the same token, you cannot absolutely guarantee that every potential design flaw in a vehicle is identified and fixed before that vehicle hits the showroom. It's a tough universe. Frank -- * * Never test the depth of the water with both feet. -- Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887 Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Again good comments Frank. It is unfortunate but it is quite apparent that Toyota has been riding their reputation for some time while squashing complaints both externally and internally. They will pay dearly for it...as they should. That is the price of not dealing problems when they are small and easily dealt with. Reminds me of the health care situation... TMT |
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