Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 5:48 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 3:46 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:50 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip

There is no conflict of interest.

You don't see the conflict when a government regulatory agency that
owns two competitors indicates that it's unsafe to use the product
of a third party thet it competes with?

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.
That is the very definition of conflict of interest. Legislators
have been removed from office for less.

Yes...I see the "possible" conflict of interest...and I understand
your argument.

But John...it is TRUE.

What's true?


If this defect were applied to aircraft, entire fleets would be
grounded.

They didn't ground the Airbus A340 (?) fleet a year or so ago when it turned
out that sensor errors, compounded by a software defect, had been crashing
A340's for a decade.

The DC-10 fleet wasn't grounded, even when engines started falling off or
when it became known that the elevator jack screw mechanisms were defective
and the fleet started flying into the ground FCS.
You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.


This recall is not like others.

Not like the Corvair, Pinto, or Vega recall's?
LOL


This is a defect that can and has killed.

Like Fords "Exploder's".
You know, when the entire fleet of those vehicles over ten years had been
built without enough tire on them.


And you have millions of affected cars on the road each day...with the
defect waiting to happen again.

The defect is easily overcome when it manifests. You shut the damned car
off, and no - they steering doesn't lock.
You can't turn the key that far without shifting the transmission.
That cop in San Diego died because he was a retard. He got his Darwin.
He killed himself and his friends needlessly.


If your family was killed tomorrow by an affected car, would you still
have the same opinion?

I spent last week moving stuff hundreds of miles in an affected Sequoia and
Tundra.


Since you sound like a Toyota stockholder, I would be sharpening up
your pitchfork for their management.

Toyota realized about a year and a half ago that they needed to step up
their quality management.
They'd reduced vendor survey's and a bunch of other stuff to lower costs.
They have been restoring the quality management structure that their
reputation was built on and had replaced the top dog with the guy that is
now, and has been, doing that.

Toyota shareholders have already taken that haircut.



--
John R. Carroll

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:38:53 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

One thing about the vaccine scare versus other scares is that the other
scares cost only money, while the vaccine scare has been killing people,
especially children.

You wanna see a vaccine body count? Google "simian virus 40". This
virus made its way into the polio vaccine supply and caused millions
of cases of cancers in the vaccinated population.
Dave

lid wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:38:53 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

One thing about the vaccine scare versus other scares is that the
other scares cost only money, while the vaccine scare has been
killing people, especially children.

You wanna see a vaccine body count? Google "simian virus 40". This
virus made its way into the polio vaccine supply and caused millions
of cases of cancers in the vaccinated population.

You could also look at what Elizabeth Dole did to the blood supply during
her stint running the Red Cross.
There are quite a number of hemophiliacs with AIDS and Hepatitis as the
result of her "expert" management.

--
John R. Carroll

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:32:43 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 5:48 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 3:46 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:50 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip

There is no conflict of interest.

You don't see the conflict when a government regulatory agency that
owns two competitors indicates that it's unsafe to use the product
of a third party thet it competes with?

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.
That is the very definition of conflict of interest. Legislators
have been removed from office for less.

Yes...I see the "possible" conflict of interest...and I understand
your argument.

But John...it is TRUE.

What's true?


If this defect were applied to aircraft, entire fleets would be
grounded.

They didn't ground the Airbus A340 (?) fleet a year or so ago when it turned
out that sensor errors, compounded by a software defect, had been crashing
A340's for a decade.

The DC-10 fleet wasn't grounded, even when engines started falling off or
when it became known that the elevator jack screw mechanisms were defective
and the fleet started flying into the ground FCS.
You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.


This recall is not like others.

Not like the Corvair, Pinto, or Vega recall's?
LOL

Apparently it's not like this GM recall either.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...910184,00.html One of
the differences being that back then, when a much higher percentage of
a larger number of affected vehicles suffered the problem, a much
higher percentage of drivers knew to stand on the brake pedal and shut
off the engine. Unlike today, when even a whiff of such a thing will
send scads of owners to the dealership to moan like hysterical
Nancies.

Here's a plain-old mechanical defect example of the same irrational
fearfulness. http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20014 The
problem is that a piece of flexible tubing was used for oil transport,
and it sometimes fails. Unheard of, right? guffaw Anyway, it seems
that most who read about the problem freaked out, creating what may be
the longest thread on that forum. Most of the participants were
compelled to substitute an all-metal alternative. Apparently flexible
hoses can no longer be trusted... except for all the other uses these
owners haven't heard of, because the only thing that most of them
understand about mechanical things is whether or not the waiting area
at the dealer service dept. has WiFi. :-)

This is a defect that can and has killed.

Like Fords "Exploder's".
You know, when the entire fleet of those vehicles over ten years had been
built without enough tire on them.


And you have millions of affected cars on the road each day...with the
defect waiting to happen again.

The defect is easily overcome when it manifests. You shut the damned car
off, and no - they steering doesn't lock.
You can't turn the key that far without shifting the transmission.
That cop in San Diego died because he was a retard. He got his Darwin.
He killed himself and his friends needlessly.

But, but, but, we must reward his driving "skill" by identifying with
him! snorf

BTW, here's a rather unclear illustration of the actual Toyota gas
pedal mod. http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24773

If your family was killed tomorrow by an affected car, would you still
have the same opinion?

I spent last week moving stuff hundreds of miles in an affected Sequoia and
Tundra.


Since you sound like a Toyota stockholder, I would be sharpening up
your pitchfork for their management.

I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2 million.
I expect that it will turn out to be hundreds of genuinely affected
parts, with perhaps even dozens of accidents. Which isn't very earth
shattering. More importantly, there will be hundreds or maybe even
thousands of lawsuits, many of which will be filed by oldsters who
stepped on the wrong pedal and seek to blame somebody else for it. The
Sturm und Drang is going to have far more affect than the actual
problem. It will become another unnecessary drag on the economy,
another distraction from taking care of far more important issues, and
add more grease to the skids of national neurosis. The whole thing is
shaping up much like the Audi nuttiness.
http://www.automobile.com/audi-inves...eleration.html.
Sensible people won't want to be cheerleaders for sequels to that
delusional behavior. Alas, sensible people have become the minority.
The rest see even the shortest snippet of overwrought sensationalism
on the tube, and feel compelled to become zombies for the cause.
What's really frightening is to see how easily people can be whipped
into a frenzy.There are probably going to be accidents caused by
people who don't even own Toyotas, driving off the road to avoid them.
I suppose it's a corollary of lottery ticket buying - both caused by
an absolute inability to put things into a reasonable perspective.

Toyota realized about a year and a half ago that they needed to step up
their quality management.
They'd reduced vendor survey's and a bunch of other stuff to lower costs.
They have been restoring the quality management structure that their
reputation was built on and had replaced the top dog with the guy that is
now, and has been, doing that.

Toyota shareholders have already taken that haircut.

Wayne

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip

The government ordinarily exercises great restraint in these
matters Ed. Something else disturbing in the weekend news was
Obama/Holder's statement that we were going to try, convict, and
then execute criminal defendants. He's contaminated the entire US
jury pool. WTF?

Free speech. g I don't think that jury pools are contaminated by a
statement by a prosecutor, no matter how high up he is. Prosecuters
argue for execution right in their faces, while they're sitting in
the jury box.

Presidents of the Unted States don't actually have that right as a
practical
matter Ed.

What did Obama say?

He was answering a reporters question in, I believe, an interview and he
said we were going to try, convict and execute the guy that was going to
be
moved to New York for trial. I saw the video but can't remember where. I
think either "Face the Nation" or "This Week"
He said it just like that.
He can't do that.

I can't find it. What I saw was Gibbs saying, on CNN's "State of the Union,"
that he was going to "meet his maker," and that "he's likely to be
executed."

Bad news, but Gibbs is just a press guy.

Anyway, it's something that I don't like to hear, but the specific effect it
will have on a trial sort of...depends. If Obama said it himself (a
stupidity that he's not likely to engage), that could wreck the case. With
Gibbs....'dunno.

--
Ed Huntress




I thought it was Holder. I must have missed
something.


Judges grant changes of venue every day because of exactly this sort
of thing.
You know all of this so I'll assume you are jerking my chain.

Well, if Obama said something prejudicial, that's different.

He did, and now that I'm thinking about it, George Will was the one that
made the point about how prejudicial it was and would end up guaranteeing
a
predisposed jury pool.

But
Holder is just the government's chief prosecutor.


Maybe Tom Gardner will jump in with an inane burst of polemic for us
all.

Why not? He probably doesn't know anything about it, so it's his kind
of topic. g

LOL
The glove DO fit G


--
John R. Carroll

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip

The government ordinarily exercises great restraint in these
matters Ed. Something else disturbing in the weekend news was
Obama/Holder's statement that we were going to try, convict, and
then execute criminal defendants. He's contaminated the entire US
jury pool. WTF?

Free speech. g I don't think that jury pools are contaminated
by a statement by a prosecutor, no matter how high up he is.
Prosecuters argue for execution right in their faces, while
they're sitting in the jury box.

Presidents of the Unted States don't actually have that right as a
practical
matter Ed.

What did Obama say?

He was answering a reporters question in, I believe, an interview
and he said we were going to try, convict and execute the guy that
was going to be
moved to New York for trial. I saw the video but can't remember
where. I think either "Face the Nation" or "This Week"
He said it just like that.
He can't do that.

I can't find it. What I saw was Gibbs saying, on CNN's "State of the
Union," that he was going to "meet his maker," and that "he's likely
to be executed."

Bad news, but Gibbs is just a press guy.

Anyway, it's something that I don't like to hear, but the specific
effect it will have on a trial sort of...depends. If Obama said it
himself (a stupidity that he's not likely to engage), that could
wreck the case. With Gibbs....'dunno.




Obama: U.S. Will Convict, Execute Mohammed

"In one of a series of TV interviews during his trip to Asia, Mr. Obama said
those offended by the legal privileges given to Mohammed by virtue of
getting a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won't find it
"offensive at all when he's convicted and when the death penalty is applied
to him.""

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5694765.shtml

And yeah, he quickly "explained" his remark but so what?
Any half assed defense guy worth his salt is going right after this.

--
John R. Carroll

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip

The government ordinarily exercises great restraint in these
matters Ed. Something else disturbing in the weekend news was
Obama/Holder's statement that we were going to try, convict, and
then execute criminal defendants. He's contaminated the entire US
jury pool. WTF?

Free speech. g I don't think that jury pools are contaminated
by a statement by a prosecutor, no matter how high up he is.
Prosecuters argue for execution right in their faces, while
they're sitting in the jury box.

Presidents of the Unted States don't actually have that right as a
practical
matter Ed.

What did Obama say?

He was answering a reporters question in, I believe, an interview
and he said we were going to try, convict and execute the guy that
was going to be
moved to New York for trial. I saw the video but can't remember
where. I think either "Face the Nation" or "This Week"
He said it just like that.
He can't do that.

I can't find it. What I saw was Gibbs saying, on CNN's "State of the
Union," that he was going to "meet his maker," and that "he's likely
to be executed."

Bad news, but Gibbs is just a press guy.

Anyway, it's something that I don't like to hear, but the specific
effect it will have on a trial sort of...depends. If Obama said it
himself (a stupidity that he's not likely to engage), that could
wreck the case. With Gibbs....'dunno.




Obama: U.S. Will Convict, Execute Mohammed

"In one of a series of TV interviews during his trip to Asia, Mr. Obama
said
those offended by the legal privileges given to Mohammed by virtue of
getting a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won't find it
"offensive at all when he's convicted and when the death penalty is
applied
to him.""

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5694765.shtml

And yeah, he quickly "explained" his remark but so what?
Any half assed defense guy worth his salt is going right after this.

g Ok, we'll see where it gets him.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip

The government ordinarily exercises great restraint in these
matters Ed. Something else disturbing in the weekend news was
Obama/Holder's statement that we were going to try, convict,
and then execute criminal defendants. He's contaminated the
entire US jury pool. WTF?

Free speech. g I don't think that jury pools are contaminated
by a statement by a prosecutor, no matter how high up he is.
Prosecuters argue for execution right in their faces, while
they're sitting in the jury box.

Presidents of the Unted States don't actually have that right as
a practical
matter Ed.

What did Obama say?

He was answering a reporters question in, I believe, an interview
and he said we were going to try, convict and execute the guy that
was going to be
moved to New York for trial. I saw the video but can't remember
where. I think either "Face the Nation" or "This Week"
He said it just like that.
He can't do that.

I can't find it. What I saw was Gibbs saying, on CNN's "State of the
Union," that he was going to "meet his maker," and that "he's likely
to be executed."

Bad news, but Gibbs is just a press guy.

Anyway, it's something that I don't like to hear, but the specific
effect it will have on a trial sort of...depends. If Obama said it
himself (a stupidity that he's not likely to engage), that could
wreck the case. With Gibbs....'dunno.




Obama: U.S. Will Convict, Execute Mohammed

"In one of a series of TV interviews during his trip to Asia, Mr.
Obama said
those offended by the legal privileges given to Mohammed by virtue of
getting a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won't find
it "offensive at all when he's convicted and when the death penalty
is applied
to him.""

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5694765.shtml

And yeah, he quickly "explained" his remark but so what?
Any half assed defense guy worth his salt is going right after this.

g Ok, we'll see where it gets him.

It gets him in a dunce cap in my book.
It's as dumb as making crude remarks when you are miked because you thought
the mike was off.
There might be real consequences in this case. Some bells can't be
unrung....

--
John R. Carroll

wrote:


I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2 million.

The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last decade wih
this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.
The recognized that something might be problematic as far back as 1999.



--
John R. Carroll

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad as hell
if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to mess with
sales figures and the valuation of my equity.

--
John R. Carroll
===========
How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?

It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
gas peddles.

Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
appears to have software bugs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/as...laints/?hpt=T1
Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
snip
The company changed its braking system software in January as
part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.

Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
to take hold.
snip
================

Anyone know who developed Toyota's software and what kinds of
validation/checking were performed, and if software quality
control was recently "right sized" or software development was
"out sourced?" Also what other vehicle manufacturers are using
this software/program?


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad
as hell if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to
mess with sales figures and the valuation of my equity.

--
John R. Carroll
===========
How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?

They aren't necessarily George but you know, LaHood runs the DOT and they
could easily have taken official action if they thought lives were
significantly at risk.



It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
gas peddles.

Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
appears to have software bugs.


http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/as...laints/?hpt=T1
Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
snip
The company changed its braking system software in January as
part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.

Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
to take hold.


The braking isn't what lags George. It's the ABS control.
CNN makes it sound as though a vehicle is going to travel 90' before the
brakes come on.
That isn't the case. You might, however, travel 90' with one or more of the
wheels locked before the ABS system cycles.
That wouldn't be good.

Let's all tilt at windmills, shall we?


--
John R. Carroll

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:


I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2 million.

The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last decade wih
this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.

That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites?

The recognized that something might be problematic as far back as 1999.

That too seems unlikely. The pedals at issue are the throttle by wire
type, which didn't come into wide use until 2002. It's hard to believe
that they've been using the exact same problematic design all this
time.

Obviously unintended acceleration itself has a long history, with a
bunch of different makes and models.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...s-ford-gm.html
Notice how the number of Toyota complaints increased after the
publicity. Check out this one: “My 2008 Prius accelerated almost out
of control. I was merging onto an expressway when the accelerator
seemed to have a life of its own and took off at an incredibly high
rate of speed…” I can go along with the claim that the throttle
pulled a hissy fit, but "incredibly high rate of speed", in a Prius?
That driver's credibility is toast.

As with everything else these days, nobody wants to admit driver error
after an accident. A whole lot of these cases are oldsters, sometimes
like this one yesterday, and frequently with nothing more than
anecdotes in place of independent investigation of the cause.
http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/mai... 5&TM=51498.13
A year ago there was an even stranger one.
http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/mai...ectionID=1&S=1.
There must be thousands of these every year, and from now on a far
larger percentage will be blamed on unintended acceleration. The
number of complaints about the issue for *all* makes is going to
skyrocket, and the belief that Toyotas have a mind of their own will
become as true as that one can catch a cold from going out in the
cold. In fact, I won't be surprised if the new Toyota narrative
becomes the leading "cause" of fender benders, late to work,
unfinished homework, etc. :-)

This article http://suddenacceleration.com/?p=327 echoes some of my
comments, but ones like that are about to become lost in the noise.
Ironically, all the attention will result in better investigations,
which once again, will show that most of this stuff is blown all out
of proportion. Not that it will make any more difference than telling
people that colds are caused by viruses.

Wayne

wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:


I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2
million.

The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last
decade wih this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.

That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites?

NPR here in LA had an hour on this last week.

SHAPIRO: What, specifically, is the committee looking at here?

LANGFITT: Well, they're asking for lots of documents. And what they've said,
is they want to know when Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration first learned about these potential safety problems and what
they did to investigate and try to resolve them. Now the committee said this
in a statement, I'm kind of quoting here, our government figures show nearly
twice as many people died in Toyotas from sudden acceleration problems in
the last decade than in cars from all other automakers combined. So thats
another thing theyre really very interested in, is the number and the volume
and how many of those are Toyotas.

http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/...ryId=123098947.


--
John R. Carroll

"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...
And away we go............!

Existential Angst wrote:

SNIP


I'm not a big fan of the shennanigans that go on in homeopathy (and
chiropractic), but you should know that homeopathy is at least rooted
in science, and reputable chiropractic is a god-sent therapy.
Please explain how Homeopathy is rooted in Science.

Some of its principles, see below.

I'm still unclear on this assertion.


Hormones, PGs, et al have powerful effects in concentrations as low as
10^-12 molar, poss. even 10^-13 -- which are dilutions that are hard to
even comprehend. True, not 10^-23, but even 10^-7 (1 part per
10,000,000) is homeopathic, imo.
So dilute solutions of medicines and hormones work? No surprise there.
That's Medicine, not Homeopathy.

Except medicine traditionally doesn't use natural substances. In fact,
you can go to jail claiming vitamins can cure anything -- a proscription
so absurd, it's like.... it's like.... sheeit, it's like WT#7 falling
down all by its self!!!

What advantages do 'natural substances' have over other substances?


The Q is: are there natural substances (typically plant extracts) that
work at 10^-12?
Proly.
The Q is: which ones?

What do you consider to be a 'plant extract'? If the substances work,
why must they be diluted to such degree? And for the record, Homeopathic
dilutions are far beyond those, typically 10^20 to 10^50 (!) Try this link
for a better explanation than I could give here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U





snip

Yes. Easier to claim conspiracy than look at real problems. Homeopathy
takes money from peoples wallets and gives them false hope. That's what
it does. Pointing out any shortcomings in other 'modalities' doesn't
change that.

I won't dispute that much of homeopathy is a con.
But if you're going to bash, bash equitably, in proportion to the total
rip-off.


Why? Why am I not allowed to bash the worst first?


The conjobs foisted on us by Big Pharm dwarfs that of homeopathy et al
by, heh, mebbe Avogadro's number.

If you can't see John Q Pubic as but fleeced fish in a barrel, then you
are not seeing "real problems".
Conspiracy is actually how things work. It's really just a matter if the
conspiracies are legal or illegal.
Most are certainly immoral -- sheeit, the formation of HD was a
conspiracy.
Dats why you have to now drive 15 miles to get hardware.

But, for some strange reason, HD, Staples, and Merck are legal, so we
don't think of them as conspiracies.

Cuz, well, we are fish.

Well, maybe. But the difference (as I see it) Is that Home Depot et al
actually give me something for my money.

Pete


--



Homeopathy is the basis for modern drugs. Modern Aspirin, is manufactured
Willow bark. A big percentage of modern drugs are based off of natural
chemical compounds. How come so much research is being done in tropical
forests?

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 22:32:05 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:
You wanna see a vaccine body count? Google "simian virus 40". This
virus made its way into the polio vaccine supply and caused millions
of cases of cancers in the vaccinated population.

You could also look at what Elizabeth Dole did to the blood supply during
her stint running the Red Cross.
There are quite a number of hemophiliacs with AIDS and Hepatitis as the
result of her "expert" management.

My sister is a nurse who happens to manage a hospital unit that cares
for people who are being slow killed by Bayer pharmaceutical's (and
the others involved) hemophiliac products.

These people:

http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/0503/22.php
Dave

lid wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 22:32:05 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

lid wrote:
You wanna see a vaccine body count? Google "simian virus 40". This
virus made its way into the polio vaccine supply and caused millions
of cases of cancers in the vaccinated population.

You could also look at what Elizabeth Dole did to the blood supply
during her stint running the Red Cross.
There are quite a number of hemophiliacs with AIDS and Hepatitis as
the result of her "expert" management.

My sister is a nurse who happens to manage a hospital unit that cares
for people who are being slow killed by Bayer pharmaceutical's (and
the others involved) hemophiliac products.

These people:

http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/0503/22.php

It's pretty bad.
A lot of people have payed for Elizabeth Dole's mistake managing the blood
supply.
Many commercial companies got, and still get, dignificant quantities of
their blood from the Red Cross. It's the largest bank in the world, or was
anyway.
Dole went on to the US Senate after her run at the Red Cross.


--
John R. Carroll

On Feb 3, 9:32*pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 5:48 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 3:46 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:50 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
news:dJKdnYSMoO6gKvTWnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@gigan ews.com...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip

There is no conflict of interest.

You don't see the conflict when a government regulatory agency that
owns two competitors indicates that it's unsafe to use the product
of a third party thet it competes with?

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.
That is the very definition of conflict of interest. Legislators
have been removed from office for less.

Yes...I see the "possible" conflict of interest...and I understand
your argument.

But John...it is TRUE.

What's true?



If this defect were applied to aircraft, entire fleets would be
grounded.

They didn't ground the Airbus A340 (?) fleet a year or so ago when it turned
out that sensor errors, compounded by a software defect, had been crashing
A340's for a decade.

The DC-10 fleet wasn't grounded, even when engines started falling off or
when it became known that the elevator jack screw mechanisms were defective
and the fleet started flying into the ground FCS.
You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.



This recall is not like others.

Not like the Corvair, Pinto, or Vega recall's?
LOL



This is a defect that can and has killed.

Like Fords "Exploder's".
You know, when the entire fleet of those vehicles over ten years had been
built without enough tire on them.



And you have millions of affected cars on the road each day...with the
defect waiting to happen again.

The defect is easily overcome when it manifests. You shut the damned car
off, and no - they steering doesn't lock.
You can't turn the key that far without shifting the transmission.
That cop in San Diego died because he was a retard. He got his Darwin.
He killed himself and his friends needlessly.



If your family was killed tomorrow by an affected car, would you still
have the same opinion?

I spent last week moving stuff hundreds of miles in an affected Sequoia and
Tundra.



Since you sound like a Toyota stockholder, I would be sharpening up
your pitchfork for their management.

Toyota realized about a year and a half ago that they needed to step up
their quality management.
They'd reduced vendor survey's and a bunch of other stuff to lower costs.
They have been restoring the quality management structure that their
reputation was built on and had replaced the top dog with the guy that is
now, and has been, doing that.

Toyota shareholders have already taken that haircut.

--
John R. Carroll- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sounds like a lot of excuses John.

Tell us...if your family was killed by this defect, would your opinon
be the same?

Your concern is over the current economic haircut you are getting for
betting against GM and Chrysler.

You sound more concerned about making money than for the safety of my
family on the road with the Toyota death traps.

TMT

On Feb 4, 12:32*am, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:38:53 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

One thing about the vaccine scare versus other scares is that the
other scares cost only money, while the vaccine scare has been
killing people, especially children.

You wanna see a vaccine body count? Google "simian virus 40". This
virus made its way into the polio vaccine supply and caused millions
of cases of cancers in the vaccinated population.

You could also look at what Elizabeth Dole did to the blood supply during
her stint running the Red Cross.
There are quite a number of hemophiliacs with AIDS and Hepatitis as the
result of her "expert" management.

--
John R. Carroll

You might want to include Ronnie Regan in that too.

His ignorance killed many Americans in regards to AIDS.

Several of them were my friends who were hemophiliacs.

Stupid *******.

TMT

On Feb 4, 1:23*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. wrote:

snipI wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad as hell
if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to mess with
sales figures and the valuation of my equity.

--
John R. Carroll

===========
How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?

It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
gas peddles.

Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
appears to have software bugs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/as...rius.complaint...
Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
snip
The company changed its braking system software in January as
part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.

Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
to take hold.
snip
================

Anyone know who developed Toyota's software and what kinds of
validation/checking were performed, and if software quality
control was recently "right sized" or software development was
"out sourced?" *Also what other vehicle manufacturers are using
this software/program?

Unka George *(George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

As I have predicted.

It is now reported that Ford has the same problems.

TMT

On Feb 4, 1:41*pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad
as hell if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to
mess with sales figures and the valuation of my equity.

--
John R. Carroll
===========
How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?

They aren't necessarily George but you know, LaHood runs the DOT and they
could easily have taken official action if they thought lives were
significantly at risk.



It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
gas peddles.

Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
appears to have software bugs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/as...rius.complaint...

Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
snip
The company changed its braking system software in January as
part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.

Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
to take hold.

The braking isn't what lags George. It's the ABS control.
CNN makes it sound as though a vehicle is going to travel 90' before the
brakes come on.
That isn't the case. You might, however, travel 90' with one or more of the
wheels locked before the ABS system cycles.
That wouldn't be good.

Let's all tilt at windmills, shall we?

--
John R. Carroll

John...it sounds like you love your money more than you love your
family.

A safety defect is a safety defect.

It is unfortunate that you have lost money on Toyota but it palls
compared to the loss of life.

It is also interesting to note that these defects were allowed to
fester during the Bush years.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:32 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 5:48 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 3:46 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:50 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip


Tell us...if your family was killed by this defect, would your opinon
be the same?

Yes, it would.


Your concern is over the current economic haircut you are getting for
betting against GM and Chrysler.

No it isn't.


You sound more concerned about making money than for the safety of my
family on the road with the Toyota death traps.

I have no concern for the safety of your family at all.
It isn't even relevant in the context of this conversation.
The DOT hasn't given owners any guidance at all and they could.
Had LaHood really believed what he'd said, it would have been simple enough
for him to have issued a DOT directive to owners.
He didn't.

--
John R. Carroll

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 4, 1:41 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad
as hell if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to
mess with sales figures and the valuation of my equity.

--
John R. Carroll
===========
How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?

They aren't necessarily George but you know, LaHood runs the DOT and
they could easily have taken official action if they thought lives
were significantly at risk.



It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
gas peddles.

Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
appears to have software bugs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/as...rius.complaint...

Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
snip
The company changed its braking system software in January as
part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.

Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
to take hold.

The braking isn't what lags George. It's the ABS control.
CNN makes it sound as though a vehicle is going to travel 90' before
the brakes come on.
That isn't the case. You might, however, travel 90' with one or more
of the wheels locked before the ABS system cycles.
That wouldn't be good.

Let's all tilt at windmills, shall we?


John...it sounds like you love your money more than you love your
family.

A safety defect is a safety defect.

OK then.
Why didn't the DOT do something?
They still haven't.


It is unfortunate that you have lost money on Toyota but it palls
compared to the loss of life.

I haven't, not on Toyota.


--
John R. Carroll

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:22:16 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:


Considering that we have MILLIONS of cars out there RIGHT NOW on the
roads that can become a deadly missile AT ANY TIME I think the warning
was warranted.

If any of us have family members killed by this defect, their opinons
will change.

TMT

Last year I ws thinking that the Michael Jackson death/funeral story
was going to be the most tedious, repetitious news item ever. Turns
out that the Toyota recall has eclipsed it by leaps & bounds. It's the
leading story everywhere, with Chicken Littles flopping around all
over the country.

"Educated" people can sit around all day and skillfully field a "dream
team" for their favorite sport using reliable game stats, then track
the putative performance of said team throughout the season.
Unfortunately, the same people are woefully unable to grasp the
concept/odds of a few dozens of failures out of millions of vehicles.
Science and logical thinking is anathema in this country nowadays.

When I hear reports of people rejecting Toyotas because of the bad
press, I can't help but wonder how many of these mutha-, err, folks
think nothing of pulling out their cell phones and yammering away as
they drive in blissful solitude. A 3 ton missile controlled by a very
defective "logic module".

Toyota needs to fix the problems, and the US needs to get on with real
issues.

Joe

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:40:56 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:


I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2
million.

The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last
decade wih this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.

That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites?

NPR here in LA had an hour on this last week.

SHAPIRO: What, specifically, is the committee looking at here?

LANGFITT: Well, they're asking for lots of documents. And what they've said,
is they want to know when Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration first learned about these potential safety problems and what
they did to investigate and try to resolve them. Now the committee said this
in a statement, I'm kind of quoting here, our government figures show nearly
twice as many people died in Toyotas from sudden acceleration problems in
the last decade than in cars from all other automakers combined. So thats
another thing theyre really very interested in, is the number and the volume
and how many of those are Toyotas.

http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/...ryId=123098947.

Well, there you go. The guy said he was "kind of quoting", and I can't
find anything to back up his recollection. The link I posted shows
that before the most recent round of publicity, Toyota was at 41% of
the U.A. (unintended acceleration) complaints, which is more than
double their market share. Except that obviously the complaint stats
are based on relatively small numbers of mostly unverifiable and
highly subjective owner reports, which appear to be instantly and
hugely affected by negative news stories. In fact, the number jumped
to 48% in just a few months after reports about the cop who forgot
that his shifter had a neutral position, and that one ought to know
how to shut off a vehicle before starting it up. Death rates could be
different from complaint rates, but at least one other article I
remember reading claimed that there weren't any official unintended
acceleration death numbers for any manufacturer other than Toyota. Yet
this article http://www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?id=101983 says: "It
reported the NHTSA said its records show that a total of 15 people
died in crashes related to possible sudden acceleration in Toyota
vehicles from the 2002 model year and newer, compared with 11 such
deaths in vehicles made by all other automakers". Notice the qualifier
"possible", which reflects the fact that in a lot of these cases,
especially those of potential electronic or software anomalies, it
might be impossible for anyone to know for sure which accidents were
truly due to U.A. It would only take a few erroneous anecdotal
accident reports to skew the figures.

Anyway, thanks to all the hysteria, six months down the road Toyota's
complaint numbers will be substantially worse even though the cars
haven't really changed a bit. Death numbers will probably increase as
well because drivers will have a handy and socially plausible
scapegoat. and cops will be more likely to take their word for it.
Drivers of all makes will consider it more acceptable than ever to
skip learning how to stop their car in an emergency. And five years
from now when the dust settles but we're still paying off about a
billion spent on addressing the hysteria, we could well be looking
back at the whole thing as the automotive equivalent of Y2K.

Now, just for fun, let's say that there are 30 million Toyotas built
in the last decade and still on the road in the US, and for the sake
of argument only, that 20 owners really did die in them from U.A. That
would mean that if one drove a Toyota for a decade, his odds of being
killed in it due to U.A. are 1 in 1.5 million, or about half as likely
as dying from dog bite. http://funny2.com/odds.htm Therefore, if the
US share of Toyota's costs is 1 billion, and we think that's a good
investment, then we ought to be spending 2 billion to prevent dog
bites. :-)

Wayne

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:43:49 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:


It is now reported that Ford has the same problems.

Every manufacturer has always had the same "problem". There will
always be defects, and some of them will get blown out of proportion
by people who should have learned from the Audi fiasco. You in
particular should know better. I bet you didn't enjoy the phony
narrative about the GOP being tough on national security, and neither
did you think much of the people who fell for it. So why fall into the
same trap with this new one? Here's a simple fact: a lot of lives and
money could be saved if people would take minimal responsibility for
learning more about a lot of things, including how better to operate a
motor vehicle. Compared to that, all the machinations that will come
of the latest fear mongering will save next to nothing. For example,
imagine if the *billions* that are about to go down the drain mostly
to counter negative publicity, was spent instead on say, improving the
traction of galoshes. :-)

Wayne

wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:40:56 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:


I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2
million.

The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last
decade wih this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.

That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites?

NPR here in LA had an hour on this last week.

SHAPIRO: What, specifically, is the committee looking at here?

LANGFITT: Well, they're asking for lots of documents. And what
they've said, is they want to know when Toyota and the National
Highway Traffic Safety Administration first learned about these
potential safety problems and what they did to investigate and try
to resolve them. Now the committee said this in a statement, I'm
kind of quoting here, our government figures show nearly twice as
many people died in Toyotas from sudden acceleration problems in the
last decade than in cars from all other automakers combined. So
thats another thing theyre really very interested in, is the number
and the volume and how many of those are Toyotas.

http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/...ryId=123098947.

Well, there you go. The guy said he was "kind of quoting", and I can't
find anything to back up his recollection.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/defects/


--
John R. Carroll

XMetal-Content: accelerator pedal, cable, wrecked Toyota

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:27:40 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools wrote:
[...]
--- Now chopped completely out of context: --
You sound more concerned about making money than for the safety of
my family on the road with the Toyota death traps.

This statement bothers me because, if you expand "money" to
"deriving benefit", this statement would seem to apply to all
concerned: Toyota, the USDOT, and the media. Heck, _I'm_ getting
another three seconds of fame (from my fifteen minutes) simply by
joining in the discussion.

I admit that I'm not the CEO of an automobile company -- and so far
no-one has offered to pay me to play one on TV -- but if I were, and
my first concern was the safety of my customers (I suspect that
being killed in a Toyota significantly reduces the chances that that
particular customer will purchase another any time soon), wouldn't I
have taken some sort of preventative measures as soon as it became
clear that this was a problem?

I know that if I were a Toyota owner I'd want to know as early as
possible (a) if I were likely to be affected, (b) warning signs so
I could avoid the problem before it occurred, and (c) what to do if
the problem occurred anyway.

(It's entirely possible that some group already _has_ issued some
straightforward "If you see this, here's what you do" advice, and I
just haven't noticed it. If that's the case, then please feel free
to ignore this little rant and skip ahead to the next-in-thread.)

I'm not talking about a massive recall. That might or might not
have been appropriate early on, depending on what Toyota knew about
the problem and when. I'm thinking of a simple letter --
illustrated with Charts'n'Diagrams -- describing:

o What kind of problem has been reported in general terms, just
so people don't start worrying when they see (e.g.) a rust spot
on the fender.
o What models are (might be) affected.
o Specific symptoms that precede an actual failure, or how to test
whether or not a given car is "close to failure". In this
case, perhaps something along the lines of "With the engine
OFF, quickly press your accelerator pedal all the way to the
floor (Figure A), and then quickly release it (Figure B). A
properly functioning accelerator pedal will immediately return
to its rest position (Figure C); if this does not occur, please
call our 800 support number immediately: 800-xxx-xxxx"
o Include a paragraph clarifying what should and should not be
done in a Toyota (or those specific Toyota models) if the pedal
sticks, whether as a result of this problem or any other reason
(including the customer failing to ever have the accelerator
cable greased bucause he/she/it skipped their 5,000-through-
50,000 mile service visits).
o Finally, let the owners know that Toyota is about to provide
a fix through its distributors, and recommend that the owner
register their car model, s/n, and any information they care to
provide via the internet or the above 800-number.

Mailing such a letter -- and having the information broadcast
through the USDOT, state xxDOTs, and the media -- would (hopefully)
have two effects:

1) Demonstrate Toyota's concern with its customers (useful in any
possible upcoming lawsuits), and
2) Decrease the number of persons killed or injured.

And yet, I don't see Toyota doing this. I don't see the USDOT doing
it. And I don't see the "investigative journalists" in the media
doing it. I've seen a number of suggestions here and elsewhere, but
a Toyota-engineering-issued recommendation for appropriate actions
could settle all sorts of critical issues that we on the sidelines
debate with a lot more time at our disposal than a Toyota driver
with a stuck accelerator pedal would have:

o Shift gears? Or Not?
o Turn the ignition off? Or not? (the "locking" problem, power for
steering)
o Use the brakes? Or not?

Of course, making up things like this is a lot easier for me. I
don't have to worry about millions of customers, multiple thousands
of stockholders, or the image of my administraton. But the
discussions of the details of the problem and the debates about its
workarounds -- in the media and elsewhere -- would likely result in
an increased awareness of what can go wrong with an automobile, and
what one could, should, and shouldn't do if it did.

And _that_ should please many (most?) of those following this
newsgroup. grin!

I think it's time for another mug of tea.


Frank McKenney
--
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt or
a leaky tire.
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)

On Feb 5, 6:25*am, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 4, 1:41 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad
as hell if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to
mess with sales figures and the valuation of my equity.

--
John R. Carroll
===========
How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?

They aren't necessarily George but you know, LaHood runs the DOT and
they could easily have taken official action if they thought lives
were significantly at risk.

It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
gas peddles.

Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
appears to have software bugs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/as...rius.complaint....

Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
snip
The company changed its braking system software in January as
part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.

Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
to take hold.

The braking isn't what lags George. It's the ABS control.
CNN makes it sound as though a vehicle is going to travel 90' before
the brakes come on.
That isn't the case. You might, however, travel 90' with one or more
of the wheels locked before the ABS system cycles.
That wouldn't be good.

Let's all tilt at windmills, shall we?

John...it sounds like you love your money more than you love your
family.

A safety defect is a safety defect.

OK then.
Why didn't the DOT do something?
They still haven't.



It is unfortunate that you have lost money on Toyota but it palls
compared to the loss of life.

I haven't, not on Toyota.

--
John R. Carroll- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then why the focus on Toyota's stock price?

And you had nothing to say about GM or Chrysler's stock price drops
earlier?

TMT

TMT

On Feb 5, 8:20*am, Joe wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:22:16 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

wrote:

Considering that we have MILLIONS of cars out there RIGHT NOW on the
roads that can become a deadly missile AT ANY TIME I think the warning
was warranted.

If any of us have family members killed by this defect, their opinons
will change.

TMT

Last year I ws thinking that the Michael Jackson death/funeral story
was going to be the most tedious, repetitious news item ever. Turns
out that the Toyota recall has eclipsed it by leaps & bounds. It's the
leading story everywhere, with Chicken Littles flopping around all
over the country.

"Educated" people can sit around all day and skillfully field a "dream
team" for their favorite sport using reliable game stats, then track
the putative performance of said team throughout the season.
Unfortunately, the same people are woefully unable to grasp the
concept/odds of a few dozens of failures out of millions of vehicles.
Science and logical thinking is anathema in this country nowadays.

When I hear reports of people rejecting Toyotas because of the bad
press, I can't help but wonder how many of these mutha-, err, folks
think nothing of pulling out their cell phones and yammering away as
they drive in blissful solitude. A 3 ton missile controlled by a very
defective "logic module".

Toyota needs to fix the problems, and the US needs to get on with real
issues.

Joe

The reason is the Toyota problem has killed and will kill again.

It can kill you and your family at time...even if you do not own a
Toyota.

If you do not understand that, your family should kick you in the
pants for your total lack of regard for their welfare.

Jackson's story was the typical celebrity story that Americans
love...remember the buzz around Elvis?

TMT

On Feb 5, 9:06*am, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:40:56 -0800, "John R. Carroll"





wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:

I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2
million.

The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last
decade wih this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.

That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites?

NPR here in LA had an hour on this last week.

SHAPIRO: What, specifically, is the committee looking at here?

LANGFITT: Well, they're asking for lots of documents. And what they've said,
is they want to know when Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration first learned about these potential safety problems and what
they did to investigate and try to resolve them. Now the committee said this
in a statement, I'm kind of quoting here, our government figures show nearly
twice as many people died in Toyotas from sudden acceleration problems in
the last decade than in cars from all other automakers combined. So thats
another thing theyre really very interested in, is the number and the volume
and how many of those are Toyotas.

http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/...ryId=123098947.

Well, there you go. The guy said he was "kind of quoting", and I can't
find anything to back up his recollection. The link I posted shows
that before the most recent round of publicity, Toyota was at 41% of
the U.A. (unintended acceleration) complaints, which is more than
double their market share. Except that obviously the complaint stats
are based on relatively small numbers of mostly unverifiable and
highly subjective owner reports, which appear to be instantly and
hugely affected by negative news stories. In fact, the number jumped
to 48% in just a few months after reports about the cop who forgot
that his shifter had a neutral position, and that one ought to know
how to shut off a vehicle before starting it up. Death rates could be
different from complaint rates, but at least one other article I
remember reading claimed that there weren't any official unintended
acceleration death numbers for any manufacturer other than Toyota. Yet
this articlehttp://www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?id=101983says: "It
reported the NHTSA said its records show that a total of 15 people
died in crashes related to possible sudden acceleration in Toyota
vehicles from the 2002 model year and newer, compared with 11 such
deaths in vehicles made by all other automakers". Notice the qualifier
"possible", which reflects the fact that in a lot of these cases,
especially those of potential electronic or software anomalies, it
might be impossible for anyone to know for sure which accidents were
truly due to U.A. It would only take a few erroneous anecdotal
accident reports to skew the figures.

Anyway, thanks to all the hysteria, six months down the road Toyota's
complaint numbers will be substantially worse even though the cars
haven't really changed a bit. Death numbers will probably increase as
well because drivers will have a handy and socially plausible
scapegoat. and cops will be more likely to take their word for it.
Drivers of all makes will consider it more acceptable than ever to
skip learning how to stop their car in an emergency. And five years
from now when the dust settles but we're still paying off about a
billion spent on addressing the hysteria, we could well be looking
back at the whole thing as the automotive equivalent of Y2K.

Now, just for fun, let's say that there are 30 million Toyotas built
in the last decade and still on the road in the US, and for the sake
of argument only, that 20 owners really did die in them from U.A. That
would mean that if one drove a Toyota for a decade, his odds of being
killed in it due to U.A. are 1 in 1.5 million, or about half as likely
as dying from dog bite.http://funny2.com/odds.htmTherefore, if the
US share of Toyota's costs is 1 billion, and we think that's a good
investment, then we ought to be spending 2 billion to prevent dog
bites. *:-)

Wayne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is now coming out that Toyota has been killing the majority of the
complaints coming in...

TMT

On Feb 5, 9:15*am, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:43:49 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

wrote:
It is now reported that Ford has the same problems.

Every manufacturer has always had the same "problem". There will
always be defects, and some of them will get blown out of proportion
by people who should have learned from the Audi fiasco. You in
particular should know better. I bet you didn't enjoy the phony
narrative about the GOP being tough on national security, and neither
did you think much of the people who fell for it. So why fall into the
same trap with this new one? Here's a simple fact: a lot of lives and
money could be saved if people would take minimal responsibility for
learning more about a lot of things, including how better to operate a
motor vehicle. Compared to that, all the machinations that will come
of the latest fear mongering will save next to nothing. For example,
imagine if the *billions* that are about to go down the drain mostly
to counter negative publicity, was spent instead on say, improving the
traction of galoshes. *:-)

Wayne

Go read the latest news...Ford has the same problem.

Wanna bet that all the manufacturers have their engineers working on
their systems to make damn sure they don't have the problem?

TMT

On Feb 5, 9:56*am, Frnak McKenney
wrote:
XMetal-Content: accelerator pedal, cable, wrecked Toyota

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:27:40 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools wrote:

* *[...]
--- Now chopped completely out of context: --

You sound more concerned about making money than for the safety of
my family on the road with the Toyota death traps.

This statement bothers me because, if you expand "money" to
"deriving benefit", this statement would seem to apply to all
concerned: Toyota, the USDOT, and the media. *Heck, _I'm_ getting
another three seconds of fame (from my fifteen minutes) simply by
joining in the discussion.

I admit that I'm not the CEO of an automobile company -- and so far
no-one has offered to pay me to play one on TV -- but if I were, and
my first concern was the safety of my customers (I suspect that
being killed in a Toyota significantly reduces the chances that that
particular customer will purchase another any time soon), wouldn't I
have taken some sort of preventative measures as soon as it became
clear that this was a problem?

I know that if I were a Toyota owner I'd want to know as early as
possible (a) if I were likely to be affected, (b) warning signs so
I could avoid the problem before it occurred, and (c) what to do if
the problem occurred anyway.

(It's entirely possible that some group already _has_ issued some
*straightforward "If you see this, here's what you do" advice, and I
*just haven't noticed it. *If that's the case, then please feel free
*to ignore this little rant and skip ahead to the next-in-thread.)

I'm not talking about a massive recall. *That might or might not
have been appropriate early on, depending on what Toyota knew about
the problem and when. *I'm thinking of a simple letter --
illustrated with Charts'n'Diagrams -- describing:

* o What kind of problem has been reported in general terms, just
* * so people don't start worrying when they see (e.g.) a rust spot
* * on the fender.
* o What models are (might be) affected.
* o Specific symptoms that precede an actual failure, or how to test
* * whether or not a given car is "close to failure". In this
* * case, perhaps something along the lines of "With the engine
* * OFF, quickly press your accelerator pedal all the way to the
* * floor (Figure A), and then quickly release it (Figure B). *A
* * properly functioning accelerator pedal will immediately return
* * to its rest position (Figure C); if this does not occur, please
* * call our 800 support number immediately: 800-xxx-xxxx"
* o Include a paragraph clarifying what should and should not be
* * done in a Toyota (or those specific Toyota models) if the pedal
* * sticks, whether as a result of this problem or any other reason
* * (including the customer failing to ever have the accelerator
* * cable greased bucause he/she/it skipped their 5,000-through-
* * 50,000 mile service visits).
* o Finally, let the owners know that Toyota is about to provide
* * a fix through its distributors, and recommend that the owner
* * register their car model, s/n, and any information they care to
* * provide via the internet or the above 800-number.

Mailing such a letter -- and having the information broadcast
through the USDOT, state xxDOTs, and the media -- would (hopefully)
have two effects:

*1) Demonstrate Toyota's concern with its customers (useful in any
* * possible upcoming lawsuits), and
*2) Decrease the number of persons killed or injured.

And yet, I don't see Toyota doing this. *I don't see the USDOT doing
it. *And I don't see the "investigative journalists" in the media
doing it. I've seen a number of suggestions here and elsewhere, but
a Toyota-engineering-issued recommendation for appropriate actions
could settle all sorts of critical issues that we on the sidelines
debate with a lot more time at our disposal than a Toyota driver
with a stuck accelerator pedal would have:

* o Shift gears? Or Not?
* o Turn the ignition off? Or not? (the "locking" problem, power for
* * steering)
* o Use the brakes? Or not?

Of course, making up things like this is a lot easier for me. *I
don't have to worry about millions of customers, multiple thousands
of stockholders, or the image of my administraton. *But the
discussions of the details of the problem and the debates about its
workarounds -- in the media and elsewhere -- would likely result in
an increased awareness of what can go wrong with an automobile, and
what one could, should, and shouldn't do if it did.

And _that_ should please many (most?) of those following this
newsgroup. grin!

I think it's time for another mug of tea.

Frank McKenney
--
* * The journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt or
* * a leaky tire.
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)

Good comments.

I agree that more info needs to be presented to the user.

That will not happen...unless forced.

The more the company admits to the problem, the larger the economic
hit due to lawsuits.

So companies hide the bad news until it blows up in their face.

The other problem is even if the info is out there, few people pay
attention and will respond properly during an unexpected event.

When you are dealing with a multi thousand pound missile driven by the
typical driver, the last problems you want are unexpected acceleration
or lack of deceleration.

TMT

On Feb 5, 10:56*am, Frnak McKenney
wrote:
X...
* o Specific symptoms that precede an actual failure, or how to test
* * whether or not a given car is "close to failure". In this
* * case, perhaps something along the lines of "With the engine
* * OFF, quickly press your accelerator pedal all the way to the
* * floor (Figure A), and then quickly release it (Figure B). *A
* * properly functioning accelerator pedal will immediately return
* * to its rest position (Figure C); if this does not occur, please
* * call our 800 support number immediately: 800-xxx-xxxx"
...
Frank McKenney

I've written test procedures for use by production floor personnel a
few times, and you can't imagine how badly some of them can
misinterpret simple instructions.

"Press any key to continue" is a good example. I had to add a check of
the BIOS memory that shows the CTRL, ALT and SHIFT key states to make
it work. For wise@$$ engineers I made those keys simulate the BSOD
briefly.

jsw

Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:f9f41766-b6bd-4488-
:

You might want to include Ronnie Regan in that too.

His ignorance killed many Americans in regards to AIDS.

Several of them were my friends who were hemophiliacs.

The best thing to do with hemophiliacs is to let them bleed to death
_before_ they pass along that genetic defect.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 5, 6:25 am, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 4, 1:41 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be
mad as hell if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to
mess with sales figures and the valuation of my equity.

--
John R. Carroll
===========
How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?

They aren't necessarily George but you know, LaHood runs the DOT
and they could easily have taken official action if they thought
lives were significantly at risk.

It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
gas peddles.

Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
appears to have software bugs.


http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/as...rius.complaint...

Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
snip
The company changed its braking system software in January as
part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.

Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
to take hold.

The braking isn't what lags George. It's the ABS control.
CNN makes it sound as though a vehicle is going to travel 90'
before the brakes come on.
That isn't the case. You might, however, travel 90' with one or
more of the wheels locked before the ABS system cycles.
That wouldn't be good.

Let's all tilt at windmills, shall we?

John...it sounds like you love your money more than you love your
family.

A safety defect is a safety defect.

OK then.
Why didn't the DOT do something?
They still haven't.



It is unfortunate that you have lost money on Toyota but it palls
compared to the loss of life.

I haven't, not on Toyota.

--
John R. Carroll- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then why the focus on Toyota's stock price?


Because the guy that making statements that influence that valuation works
for one of Toyota's competitors as a member of a national government. This
is the sort of thing you see in places like Venezuela. The 401 K's of a lot
of Americans have just taken a hit because of a built in conflict of
interest.


And you had nothing to say about GM or Chrysler's stock price drops
earlier?

Neither were the result of a statement made by a senior official of a
foriegn power that happened to own one of GM or Chrysler's competitors.



--
John R. Carroll

On 05 Feb 2010 18:03:00 GMT, Eregon wrote:


The best thing to do with hemophiliacs is to let them bleed to death
_before_ they pass along that genetic defect.

This is exactly the eugenics attitude and goal that the drug companies
followed when they knowingly distributed the tainted blood factor
medicines they had produced. Normal people generally view this as
murder.....not that you are normal.
Dave

On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:46:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:40:56 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

wrote:


I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2
million.

The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last
decade wih this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.

That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites?

NPR here in LA had an hour on this last week.

SHAPIRO: What, specifically, is the committee looking at here?

LANGFITT: Well, they're asking for lots of documents. And what
they've said, is they want to know when Toyota and the National
Highway Traffic Safety Administration first learned about these
potential safety problems and what they did to investigate and try
to resolve them. Now the committee said this in a statement, I'm
kind of quoting here, our government figures show nearly twice as
many people died in Toyotas from sudden acceleration problems in the
last decade than in cars from all other automakers combined. So
thats another thing theyre really very interested in, is the number
and the volume and how many of those are Toyotas.

http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/...ryId=123098947.

Well, there you go. The guy said he was "kind of quoting", and I can't
find anything to back up his recollection.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/defects/

J.R.C. (above): "The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people
in the last decade with this defect than every other manufacturer
combined."

By posting a link to the NHTSA site, are you trying to say that one
can find evidence of your assertion there? Then why not post the link
to that search, or at least the details of how you or Langfiit arrived
at your conclusion? Why do you suppose that the LA Times, who
apparently mined the same data, didn't get the same results? And why
do you think that they used the very qualified phrase "related to
possible sudden acceleration", while you were able to be so
definitive?

Wayne

On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:39:50 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Feb 5, 9:15*am, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:43:49 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

wrote:
It is now reported that Ford has the same problems.

Every manufacturer has always had the same "problem". There will
always be defects, and some of them will get blown out of proportion
by people who should have learned from the Audi fiasco. You in
particular should know better. I bet you didn't enjoy the phony
narrative about the GOP being tough on national security, and neither
did you think much of the people who fell for it. So why fall into the
same trap with this new one? Here's a simple fact: a lot of lives and
money could be saved if people would take minimal responsibility for
learning more about a lot of things, including how better to operate a
motor vehicle. Compared to that, all the machinations that will come
of the latest fear mongering will save next to nothing. For example,
imagine if the *billions* that are about to go down the drain mostly
to counter negative publicity, was spent instead on say, improving the
traction of galoshes. *:-)

Wayne

Go read the latest news...Ford has the same problem.

You're repeating yourself.

Wanna bet that all the manufacturers have their engineers working on
their systems to make damn sure they don't have the problem?

Well sure, because they never gave it a moment's thought for the last
decade, even after the Audi debacle, right? Seriously man, you've gone
off the deep end trying to fuel this nonsense. Don't be whinin' next
time some idiot announces "death panels" or whatever, 'cause what
you're doing here is every bit as stupid.

Wayne

On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:56:46 -0600, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

XMetal-Content: accelerator pedal, cable, wrecked Toyota

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:27:40 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools wrote:
[...]
--- Now chopped completely out of context: --
You sound more concerned about making money than for the safety of
my family on the road with the Toyota death traps.

This statement bothers me because, if you expand "money" to
"deriving benefit", this statement would seem to apply to all
concerned: Toyota, the USDOT, and the media. Heck, _I'm_ getting
another three seconds of fame (from my fifteen minutes) simply by
joining in the discussion.

I admit that I'm not the CEO of an automobile company -- and so far
no-one has offered to pay me to play one on TV -- but if I were, and
my first concern was the safety of my customers (I suspect that
being killed in a Toyota significantly reduces the chances that that
particular customer will purchase another any time soon), wouldn't I
have taken some sort of preventative measures as soon as it became
clear that this was a problem?

I know that if I were a Toyota owner I'd want to know as early as
possible (a) if I were likely to be affected, (b) warning signs so
I could avoid the problem before it occurred, and (c) what to do if
the problem occurred anyway.

(It's entirely possible that some group already _has_ issued some
straightforward "If you see this, here's what you do" advice, and I
just haven't noticed it. If that's the case, then please feel free
to ignore this little rant and skip ahead to the next-in-thread.)

I'm not talking about a massive recall. That might or might not
have been appropriate early on, depending on what Toyota knew about
the problem and when. I'm thinking of a simple letter --
illustrated with Charts'n'Diagrams -- describing:

o What kind of problem has been reported in general terms, just
so people don't start worrying when they see (e.g.) a rust spot
on the fender.
o What models are (might be) affected.
o Specific symptoms that precede an actual failure, or how to test
whether or not a given car is "close to failure". In this
case, perhaps something along the lines of "With the engine
OFF, quickly press your accelerator pedal all the way to the
floor (Figure A), and then quickly release it (Figure B). A
properly functioning accelerator pedal will immediately return
to its rest position (Figure C); if this does not occur, please
call our 800 support number immediately: 800-xxx-xxxx"
o Include a paragraph clarifying what should and should not be
done in a Toyota (or those specific Toyota models) if the pedal
sticks, whether as a result of this problem or any other reason
(including the customer failing to ever have the accelerator
cable greased bucause he/she/it skipped their 5,000-through-
50,000 mile service visits).
o Finally, let the owners know that Toyota is about to provide
a fix through its distributors, and recommend that the owner
register their car model, s/n, and any information they care to
provide via the internet or the above 800-number.

Mailing such a letter -- and having the information broadcast
through the USDOT, state xxDOTs, and the media -- would (hopefully)
have two effects:

1) Demonstrate Toyota's concern with its customers (useful in any
possible upcoming lawsuits), and
2) Decrease the number of persons killed or injured.

And yet, I don't see Toyota doing this. I don't see the USDOT doing
it. And I don't see the "investigative journalists" in the media
doing it. I've seen a number of suggestions here and elsewhere, but
a Toyota-engineering-issued recommendation for appropriate actions
could settle all sorts of critical issues that we on the sidelines
debate with a lot more time at our disposal than a Toyota driver
with a stuck accelerator pedal would have:

o Shift gears? Or Not?
o Turn the ignition off? Or not? (the "locking" problem, power for
steering)
o Use the brakes? Or not?

Of course, making up things like this is a lot easier for me. I
don't have to worry about millions of customers, multiple thousands
of stockholders, or the image of my administraton. But the
discussions of the details of the problem and the debates about its
workarounds -- in the media and elsewhere -- would likely result in
an increased awareness of what can go wrong with an automobile, and
what one could, should, and shouldn't do if it did.

And _that_ should please many (most?) of those following this
newsgroup. grin!

I think it's time for another mug of tea.


Frank McKenney

If one googles "toyota accelerator recall", this is the second result
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/t...ry-102572.aspx,
which among other things, takes the reader to here
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/c...ng-153495.aspx.
If one doesn't trust Toyota, then the same info along with tons of
comments is widely available. Here are some examples
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...oyota-sua.html
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/how-...ator-pedals/#2
Or just google "runaway toyota" for a half-million hits. Clearly, the
info is there for anyone who wants it. If anything, there's too much
info. All any owner really needs to know is to take his car in for
service when he gets the recall, and in the meantime if there's a
problem, then stand on the brakes immediately and shift into neutral
if necessary. I'd add that *everybody* should be familiar with how
their car's brakes and steering feels when the engine is dead.

Wayne

On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:38:05 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:


It is now coming out that Toyota has been killing the majority of the
complaints coming in...

Let's see your evidence for that. And make sure it's something
factual, and not just "somebody says".

Wayne