On my application for employment I have a series of math and word problems.
That weeded out more than 2/3ds. of applicants. Then I added a series of
lines and the applicant was given a scale to measure them. That weeded out
2/3ds. of the remainder. Now I have a steel block with some threaded holes
and the applicant has to put some SHCSs of different sizes and pitch into
the right holes. And lastly clamp a Vise-Grip onto the block with a flat
washer and not cover the center hole. We had to make a hardened block as
the threaded holes got buggered-up on the CRS block. And, somebody actually
broke the Vise-Grips!

I also have some questions like "Who is your Congress person?", "Who is the
Governor?", "Name three States West of the Mississippi.". Did you know it's
illegal to ask if the applicant ever was injured on the job or ever filed a
Workers Comp. claim or if you have any chronic illnesses, or if you have
kids or if you're pregnant? Now I order an extensive background check for
anybody I hire. We reject 95% of applicants even for general labor jobs.
What do they teach in "School" today? I have had very good luck with felons
fresh out of the slammer.

I'm curious to hear more about this. I sense that the lack
of public eduction is a large part of what you're noticing.
Sad that you are finding so few qualified applicants.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Buerste" wrote in message
...
On my application for employment I have a series of math and
word problems.
That weeded out more than 2/3ds. of applicants. Then I
added a series of
lines and the applicant was given a scale to measure them.
That weeded out
2/3ds. of the remainder. Now I have a steel block with some
threaded holes
and the applicant has to put some SHCSs of different sizes
and pitch into
the right holes. And lastly clamp a Vise-Grip onto the
block with a flat
washer and not cover the center hole. We had to make a
hardened block as
the threaded holes got buggered-up on the CRS block. And,
somebody actually
broke the Vise-Grips!

I also have some questions like "Who is your Congress
person?", "Who is the
Governor?", "Name three States West of the Mississippi.".
Did you know it's
illegal to ask if the applicant ever was injured on the job
or ever filed a
Workers Comp. claim or if you have any chronic illnesses, or
if you have
kids or if you're pregnant? Now I order an extensive
background check for
anybody I hire. We reject 95% of applicants even for
general labor jobs.
What do they teach in "School" today? I have had very good
luck with felons
fresh out of the slammer.

In article , "Buerste" wrote:
[...]
What do they teach in "School" today? I have had very good luck with felons
fresh out of the slammer.

You are to be congratulated for giving them the opportunity to become
contributing members of society. Ex-offenders who have jobs are much less
likely to re-offend than those who don't. And that benefits all of us.

Thank you.

"Buerste" wrote in message
...
On my application for employment I have a series of math and word
problems. That weeded out more than 2/3ds. of applicants. Then I added a
series of lines and the applicant was given a scale to measure them. That
weeded out 2/3ds. of the remainder. Now I have a steel block with some
threaded holes and the applicant has to put some SHCSs of different sizes
and pitch into the right holes. And lastly clamp a Vise-Grip onto the
block with a flat washer and not cover the center hole. We had to make a
hardened block as the threaded holes got buggered-up on the CRS block.
And, somebody actually broke the Vise-Grips!

I also have some questions like "Who is your Congress person?", "Who is
the Governor?", "Name three States West of the Mississippi.". Did you
know it's illegal to ask if the applicant ever was injured on the job or
ever filed a Workers Comp. claim or if you have any chronic illnesses, or
if you have kids or if you're pregnant? Now I order an extensive
background check for anybody I hire. We reject 95% of applicants even
for general labor jobs. What do they teach in "School" today? I have had
very good luck with felons fresh out of the slammer.

Couldn't you also be weeding out the best employees in the raw? I've seen a
lot of burnt out experienced employees get preferred over a newbie although
in a year or two sometimes the newbie goes far beyond the experienced
burnout.

And at times, I have been that newbie. I applied for a job at a place and I
didn't even get an interview. About 6 months later I was in their plant
programming their vision system. Their least employee was evidently ahead
of me 6 months ago but their most experienced employee didn't know how to
program their vision system, something I had never seen 6 months prior. The
Engineering company I worked for could tell that even though I didn't
directly have experience, teaching myself assembly language, basic, and C
showed my interest in learning.

Out of college with an Associates Degree and a couple years at a machine
shop, I found everybody wanting experienced people. On the side I designed,
built, and programmed a CNC circuit board drill controlled from a Commodore
64. I also interfaced a basketball scoreboard to a PC XT compatible using
an 8255 on an ISA proto card. Most people that interviewed me couldn't see
any connection between what I did and industrial electrical technician work.
Then I got a job with an engineering company and was doing engineering
projects for the companies that didn't think I was qualified to work for
them.

One interview I had wasn't interested in me because I didn't do well on
their test that had relay ladder logic on it. I had never seen relay ladder
logic at that point, but if someone would just tell me what it was I would
understand it. Allen Bradley addressing isn't a knowledge a person is born
with. Oh, not too long after that I was programming Allen Bradley PLC's for
that company hired through the engineering company I worked for. The boss
at the engineering company knew enough to know that if I could teach myself
assembly language then I would have no trouble with ladder logic. I guess
I'm wondering it many of those you eliminate may be your best employees if
you gave them a chance. Perhaps not in your case, but I know I ran circles
around those who were chosen over me by HR. But then again, perhaps being
chosen over is what motivated me to learn.

RogerN

On 2010-01-29, RogerN wrote:

"Buerste" wrote in message
...
On my application for employment I have a series of math and word
problems. That weeded out more than 2/3ds. of applicants. Then I added a
series of lines and the applicant was given a scale to measure them. That
weeded out 2/3ds. of the remainder. Now I have a steel block with some
threaded holes and the applicant has to put some SHCSs of different sizes
and pitch into the right holes. And lastly clamp a Vise-Grip onto the
block with a flat washer and not cover the center hole. We had to make a
hardened block as the threaded holes got buggered-up on the CRS block.
And, somebody actually broke the Vise-Grips!

I also have some questions like "Who is your Congress person?", "Who is
the Governor?", "Name three States West of the Mississippi.". Did you
know it's illegal to ask if the applicant ever was injured on the job or
ever filed a Workers Comp. claim or if you have any chronic illnesses, or
if you have kids or if you're pregnant? Now I order an extensive
background check for anybody I hire. We reject 95% of applicants even
for general labor jobs. What do they teach in "School" today? I have had
very good luck with felons fresh out of the slammer.

Couldn't you also be weeding out the best employees in the raw? I've seen a
lot of burnt out experienced employees get preferred over a newbie although
in a year or two sometimes the newbie goes far beyond the experienced
burnout.

Roger, I think that you have a point, but I would suggest separating
education from experience. Can an inexperienced person become a great
machinist. Yes. Can someone who does not know how to multiply
fractions, become a great machinist? I think not easily.

i

"Ignoramus2532" wrote in message
...
On 2010-01-29, RogerN wrote:

"Buerste" wrote in message
...
On my application for employment I have a series of math and word
problems. That weeded out more than 2/3ds. of applicants. Then I added
a
series of lines and the applicant was given a scale to measure them.
That
weeded out 2/3ds. of the remainder. Now I have a steel block with some
threaded holes and the applicant has to put some SHCSs of different
sizes
and pitch into the right holes. And lastly clamp a Vise-Grip onto the
block with a flat washer and not cover the center hole. We had to make
a
hardened block as the threaded holes got buggered-up on the CRS block.
And, somebody actually broke the Vise-Grips!

I also have some questions like "Who is your Congress person?", "Who is
the Governor?", "Name three States West of the Mississippi.". Did you
know it's illegal to ask if the applicant ever was injured on the job or
ever filed a Workers Comp. claim or if you have any chronic illnesses,
or
if you have kids or if you're pregnant? Now I order an extensive
background check for anybody I hire. We reject 95% of applicants even
for general labor jobs. What do they teach in "School" today? I have
had
very good luck with felons fresh out of the slammer.

Couldn't you also be weeding out the best employees in the raw? I've
seen a
lot of burnt out experienced employees get preferred over a newbie
although
in a year or two sometimes the newbie goes far beyond the experienced
burnout.

Roger, I think that you have a point, but I would suggest separating
education from experience. Can an inexperienced person become a great
machinist. Yes. Can someone who does not know how to multiply
fractions, become a great machinist? I think not easily.

i

Perhaps the person never had a reason to multiply fractions up to that
point. Such as a person gets out of school, sweeps floors for a few years,
and then takes a test and doesn't remember how to multiply fractions. But
maybe given an application where they need to multiply fractions, perhaps
they become the best fraction multiplier the world has ever seen! :-) For
example, I like math but I'm not interested in writing numbers on paper and
performing math operations on them. So, going my first machinist job I
wasn't up to date on shop math but shortly thereafter I knew how to use trig
and I knew if I had my compound set for 60 Degrees the tool bit would travel
0.5X in one direction and 0.866X in the other direction. I also learned how
to calculate the dividing head, I didn't need to look up tables. I also
could calculate gear ratios to cut screw threads and could use continued
fractions to get ratios close if exact was not practical. I guess I would
say that when I started in the shop my shop math was weak but shortly after
I was pretty good at it, simply because I had an application for it. I
didn't learn everything but I learned all we used, I don't have to look at
charts except to see the decimal equivalent of some letter and number sizes.
Learning shop math for an application has stuck even though I haven't been
employed as a machinist in 25 years.

RogerN

On Jan 28, 6:32*pm, "Buerste" wrote:
On my application for employment I have a series of math and word problems.
That weeded out more than 2/3ds. of applicants. *Then I added a series of
lines and the applicant was given a scale to measure them. *That weeded out
2/3ds. of the remainder. *Now I have a steel block with some threaded holes
and the applicant has to put some SHCSs of different sizes and pitch into
the right holes. *And lastly clamp a Vise-Grip onto the block with a flat
washer and not cover the center hole. *We had to make a hardened block as
the threaded holes got buggered-up on the CRS block. *And, somebody actually
broke the Vise-Grips!

I also have some questions like "Who is your Congress person?", "Who is the
Governor?", "Name three States West of the Mississippi.". *Did you know it's
illegal to ask if the applicant ever was injured on the job or ever filed a
Workers Comp. claim or if you have any chronic illnesses, or if you have
kids or if you're pregnant? *Now I order an extensive background check for
anybody I hire. *We reject 95% of applicants even for general labor jobs.
What do they teach in "School" today? *I have had very good luck with felons
fresh out of the slammer.

I recently read a Warren Buffet quote: "Someone once said that in
looking for people to hire you look for three qualities: integrity,
intelligence, and energy. And if they don't have the first, the other
two will kill you."

I recently read a Warren Buffet quote: "Someone once said that in
looking for people to hire you look for three qualities: integrity,
intelligence, and energy. And if they don't have the first, the other
two will kill you."

Man I couldn't agree more. Give me a person with integrity and a good work
ethic and I can use them. It may take a bit more time to get those without
education or experience up to speed but you can't change integrity and work
ethic.

I'm fortunate to be able to hire for a menial level jobs and then select
from this pool for advancement. I know of no way to spot integrity and work
ethic in a short interview.

Karl

On Jan 29, 3:39*am, "RogerN" wrote:

Couldn't you also be weeding out the best employees in the raw? *I've seen a
lot of burnt out experienced employees get preferred over a newbie although
in a year or two sometimes the newbie goes far beyond the experienced
burnout.

RogerN

Lots of companies want specific experience and should be more open
minded. But it sounds like Tom's test of measuring the length of
lines falls into general knowledge. I once did not hire a high school
graduate that did not know how many inches were in a foot. I do not
think he would have turned out to be one of our best employees.


Dan

Let the Record show that " on or
about Fri, 29 Jan 2010 06:52:53 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Jan 29, 3:39*am, "RogerN" wrote:

Couldn't you also be weeding out the best employees in the raw? *I've seen a
lot of burnt out experienced employees get preferred over a newbie although
in a year or two sometimes the newbie goes far beyond the experienced
burnout.

RogerN

Lots of companies want specific experience and should be more open
minded. But it sounds like Tom's test of measuring the length of
lines falls into general knowledge. I once did not hire a high school
graduate that did not know how many inches were in a foot. I do not
think he would have turned out to be one of our best employees.

As bizarre as it sounds, I did work with a guy who could not read a
steel tape. Kind of a handclap when it came to measuring things
around the shop.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Let the Record show that "Karl Townsend"
on or about Fri, 29 Jan 2010
02:24:15 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


I recently read a Warren Buffet quote: "Someone once said that in
looking for people to hire you look for three qualities: integrity,
intelligence, and energy. And if they don't have the first, the other
two will kill you."

Man I couldn't agree more. Give me a person with integrity and a good work

Integrity will give you a "good work ethic".

Buffet's point is that a hard worker without integrity, is working
for themselves, not you.
ethic and I can use them. It may take a bit more time to get those without
education or experience up to speed but you can't change integrity and work
ethic.

I'm fortunate to be able to hire for a menial level jobs and then select
from this pool for advancement. I know of no way to spot integrity and work
ethic in a short interview.

Karl

-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

pyotr filipivich wrote in
:

Let the Record show that " on or
about Fri, 29 Jan 2010 06:52:53 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Jan 29, 3:39*am, "RogerN" wrote:

Couldn't you also be weeding out the best employees in the raw?
*I've seen a lot of burnt out experienced employees get preferred
over a newbie although in a year or two sometimes the newbie goes
far beyond the experienced burnout.

RogerN

Lots of companies want specific experience and should be more open
minded. But it sounds like Tom's test of measuring the length of
lines falls into general knowledge. I once did not hire a high school
graduate that did not know how many inches were in a foot. I do not
think he would have turned out to be one of our best employees.

As bizarre as it sounds, I did work with a guy who could not read a
steel tape. Kind of a handclap when it came to measuring things
around the shop.

When I was a grad student at MIT, I was teaching a lab course. I had an
MIT undergraduate who could not operate a yard stick! He was a physics
major. There were quite a few students at MIT who were really bright,
but didn't have a lick of sense or real world experience.

Several years later we had an MIT EE _grad_ student in my lab working on
his thesis. He wanted to build something for home with an LED. When he
started asking questions about how to do this, it became apparent that he
was a bit fuzzy on things like how many volts an LED required, what comes
out of a wall socket, ac vs dc, etc. It was scary.

Doug White

On Jan 29, 10:58*pm, "RogerN" wrote:


*But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN

Fortunately one does not have to choose between just those two
extremes. Once I advertised for a part time bookkeeper/ secretary and
got some huge number of responses. Something like two or three
hundred. After carefully reading all the letters, was able to select
a few to talk to, and the one we picked did a great job. We could
have gotten someone for minimum wage, but paid about twice that for a
really competent worker.

Dan

On Jan 29, 2:21*pm, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Let the Record show that "Karl Townsend"
on or about Fri, 29 Jan 2010
02:24:15 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking *the following:



I recently read a Warren Buffet quote: "Someone once said that in
looking for people to hire you look for three qualities: integrity,
intelligence, and energy. *And if they don't have the first, the other
two will kill you."

Man I couldn't agree more. Give me a person with integrity and a good work

* * * * Integrity will give you a "good work ethic".

* * * * Buffet's point is that a hard worker without integrity, is working
for themselves, not you.ethic and I can use them. It may take a bit more time to get those without
education or experience up to speed but you can't change integrity and work
ethic.

I'm fortunate to be able to hire for a menial level jobs and then select
from this pool for advancement. *I know of no way to spot integrity and work
ethic in a short interview.

Karl

-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Being ethical and having integrity are one in the same. Warren
Buffets wants people he can trust. I expect that he understands
people who seek profit for themselves and he looks for as much value
as he can get for what he is paying in wages. Sounds like a fair
horse trader to me.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Let the Record show that " on or
about Fri, 29 Jan 2010 06:52:53 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Jan 29, 3:39 am, "RogerN" wrote:

Couldn't you also be weeding out the best employees in the raw? I've
seen a
lot of burnt out experienced employees get preferred over a newbie
although
in a year or two sometimes the newbie goes far beyond the experienced
burnout.

RogerN

Lots of companies want specific experience and should be more open
minded. But it sounds like Tom's test of measuring the length of
lines falls into general knowledge. I once did not hire a high school
graduate that did not know how many inches were in a foot. I do not
think he would have turned out to be one of our best employees.

As bizarre as it sounds, I did work with a guy who could not read a
steel tape. Kind of a handclap when it came to measuring things
around the shop.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

My BIL is functionally illiterate. He owns a construction company that did
$12 million last year. He grew the company by starting a drywall company.

One time, I saw him measure, then fold the tape to get center. I'm sure he
had a lot of practical ways to measure to arrive at the same answer.

Still, I do understand that in the culling process, it does cut out a lot of
the chaff, yet some wheat may be discarded in the process.

I was helper for a welder in the Gulf of Mexico my first season. He could
not read or write, but he could saddle a 12" pipe on the diagonal using a
matchbook and a piece of letter paper. Fold this way and that. It came out
amazingly close. Other guys were good welders, but could only weld what was
set in front of them.

There's a hundred ways to cook a poodle. But it all tastes like chicken.

Steve

"RogerN" wrote:

And at times, I have been that newbie. I applied for a job at a place and I
didn't even get an interview. About 6 months later I was in their plant
programming their vision system. Their least employee was evidently ahead
of me 6 months ago but their most experienced employee didn't know how to
program their vision system, something I had never seen 6 months prior. The
Engineering company I worked for could tell that even though I didn't
directly have experience, teaching myself assembly language, basic, and C
showed my interest in learning.


Don't feel bad. I read all the interesting books in the 62x range of the Dewey decimal
code at my local library before I left K-12.

Did a 4 year active hitch in the USMC, repaired the Westinghouse AWG10 radar in F4-J and
F4-S's

I get home, can't find a decent job, get hired in doing assembly work at a local factory.
I move up the line, the maintenance supervisor doesn't want me because I can't weld. I
know electronics, pneumatics, hydraulics.

Now I'm a press operator, the presses are in sad repair. I start studying hydraulics in
my spare time. I figure out what is going wrong. I talk to my supervisors, I tell them
what I think is wrong.

I'm right, I get a rep for having a clue.

Maintenance supervisor still doesn't want me. Country bumpkin that hates book learning.
I'm a country bumpkin that reads.

Supervisors get with plant manager and I get shoved up maintenance supervisors ass.

I didn't spent much time there before they moved me out of there and made maintenance
subordinate to me.

Along the progression I was dealing with EPA stuff, control engineering, robotics, IT.

I got to get rid of the EPA stuff fairly quick. Those other things seemed to be higher on
the needs list. Fine with me!

I sure miss my old job. Don't miss the pressure, I do miss the 7 minute commute. If the
they had made it through the 2001 automotive drop, I'd have 5 weeks vacation now.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Let the Record show that " on or
about Fri, 29 Jan 2010 06:52:53 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Jan 29, 3:39 am, "RogerN" wrote:

Couldn't you also be weeding out the best employees in the raw? I've
seen a
lot of burnt out experienced employees get preferred over a newbie
although
in a year or two sometimes the newbie goes far beyond the experienced
burnout.

RogerN

Lots of companies want specific experience and should be more open
minded. But it sounds like Tom's test of measuring the length of
lines falls into general knowledge. I once did not hire a high school
graduate that did not know how many inches were in a foot. I do not
think he would have turned out to be one of our best employees.

As bizarre as it sounds, I did work with a guy who could not read a
steel tape. Kind of a handclap when it came to measuring things
around the shop.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Not bizarre at all! Did you ever try to teach somebody to read a tape that
has no concept of fractions?

On 2010-01-30, Buerste wrote:
The deciding factor for me is a personal interview. I won't hire anybody
with their pants waist around their knees no matter what! I can usually
tell if somebody wants the satisfaction that comes with doing a good job or
if they just want a paycheck and will do as little as possible. I try and
engage the applicant in a friendly conversation and just listen to what they
say or don't say.


I remember how in business school I was taught about a "study",
whereby interviewers talked to job applicants about general things and
formed impressions. Turns out that their impressions had little to do
with the future job performance of those hired.

I do believe this to be true based on what I have seen.

Some people are really good at bull****ting and manipulation and only
deep digging (asking detailed technical questions) can sort out those
BSers.

In any job interviews, I always ask "hard questions" that bull****ters
will not be able to answer correctly.

The worst interview suggestions are "body language" based suggestions,
paying attention to body language is truly a great way to get screwed.

First, honest people from different cultures, or introverts, always make
a bad impression from a body language standpoint. Second, crooks and
cheats know all about body language and assume sincere poses, look at
the interviewer's chin etc.

i

wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 10:58 pm, "RogerN" wrote:


But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN
/
/Fortunately one does not have to choose between just those two
/extremes. Once I advertised for a part time bookkeeper/ secretary and
/got some huge number of responses. Something like two or three
/hundred. After carefully reading all the letters, was able to select
/a few to talk to, and the one we picked did a great job. We could
/have gotten someone for minimum wage, but paid about twice that for a
/really competent worker.
/
/ Dan
/

I presented 2 extremes and most fit somewhere in the middle. My point is
that the greatest that have ever lived wouldn't pass the test at some point
in their life. I once heard that Walt Disney was turned down for a job, the
interviewer said he had no imagination. Trying to determine an applicants
potential is one thing, what I don't appreciate is incompetent HR. "I
realize you can rebuild a fighter jet, but I'm not sure if you're qualified
to repair bicycles for us". Or "So, you can make almost anything in a
machine shop but I'm not sure you're qualified to work at JiffyLube". Or
"So I see from your resume that you worked with kinematics for articulated
arm robotics, but we need someone that can figure sales tax". You get the
picture, the applicant has abundant qualifications but HR doesn't understand
well enough to know. I don't think this is the case here (this thread) but
in many places it is. At least it seems the golf club companies realized
former NASA rocket scientists were qualified to design golf clubs from space
age materials :-)

RogerN

"Doug White" wrote

When I was a grad student at MIT, I was teaching a lab course. I had an
MIT undergraduate who could not operate a yard stick! He was a physics
major. There were quite a few students at MIT who were really bright,
but didn't have a lick of sense or real world experience.

Several years later we had an MIT EE _grad_ student in my lab working on
his thesis. He wanted to build something for home with an LED. When he
started asking questions about how to do this, it became apparent that he
was a bit fuzzy on things like how many volts an LED required, what comes
out of a wall socket, ac vs dc, etc. It was scary.

Doug White

I love people who are educated beyond their capacity.

Steve

But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN


When I was in business, I would never hire anyone who had been in a union.

Steve

"Ignoramus7752" wrote in message
...
On 2010-01-30, Buerste wrote:
The deciding factor for me is a personal interview. I won't hire anybody
with their pants waist around their knees no matter what! I can usually
tell if somebody wants the satisfaction that comes with doing a good job
or
if they just want a paycheck and will do as little as possible. I try
and
engage the applicant in a friendly conversation and just listen to what
they
say or don't say.


I remember how in business school I was taught about a "study",
whereby interviewers talked to job applicants about general things and
formed impressions. Turns out that their impressions had little to do
with the future job performance of those hired.

I do believe this to be true based on what I have seen.

Some people are really good at bull****ting and manipulation and only
deep digging (asking detailed technical questions) can sort out those
BSers.

In any job interviews, I always ask "hard questions" that bull****ters
will not be able to answer correctly.

The worst interview suggestions are "body language" based suggestions,
paying attention to body language is truly a great way to get screwed.

First, honest people from different cultures, or introverts, always make
a bad impression from a body language standpoint. Second, crooks and
cheats know all about body language and assume sincere poses, look at
the interviewer's chin etc.

i

Yep, I've been snookered a few times but no big deal. I have a 90 day
probationary period and the head of the union will tell me if the guy's a
worker or not and he wants his people to be a good team.

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Doug White" wrote

When I was a grad student at MIT, I was teaching a lab course. I had an
MIT undergraduate who could not operate a yard stick! He was a physics
major. There were quite a few students at MIT who were really bright,
but didn't have a lick of sense or real world experience.

Several years later we had an MIT EE _grad_ student in my lab working on
his thesis. He wanted to build something for home with an LED. When he
started asking questions about how to do this, it became apparent that he
was a bit fuzzy on things like how many volts an LED required, what comes
out of a wall socket, ac vs dc, etc. It was scary.

Doug White

I love people who are educated beyond their capacity.

Steve

And many try to get an education but instead get indoctrination, that's how
we get liberals. :-)

RogerN

Steve B wrote:
But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN


When I was in business, I would never hire anyone who had been in a union.

Steve



Too bad, I was in a union and the most important lesson I learned was
how bad they were.

But you wouldn't hire me in spite of my having learned my lesson.

David

pyotr filipivich wrote:

As bizarre as it sounds, I did work with a guy who could not read a
steel tape. Kind of a handclap when it came to measuring things
around the shop.

I'm dangeous if I'm reading it upside down. Tend to cut an inch short

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:37:10 -0600, the infamous "David R.Birch"
scrawled the following:

Steve B wrote:
But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN


When I was in business, I would never hire anyone who had been in a union.

Steve



Too bad, I was in a union and the most important lesson I learned was
how bad they were.

But you wouldn't hire me in spite of my having learned my lesson.

Don't feel too bad, Davey. He probably wouldn't hire a recovering
Democrat or ex-con, either. He realizes that vast majority of those
birds don't change their stripes.

Congrats on changing yours. My first job was as a boxboy and I got the
same realization you did the Teamsters. Never again. After union
dues and extra taxes, the 65 cent "raise" I got for joining the union
resulted in mere pennies. I watched the union guys behind the scenes
at a COMDEX in Vegas a decade or so ago. What a crock! Most weren't
working, all waiting for the union electrician who could legally plug
a cord into an outlet, since they were barred from doing so. And on it
goes.

--
Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire,
you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Steve B wrote:

"Doug White" wrote

When I was a grad student at MIT, I was teaching a lab course. I had an
MIT undergraduate who could not operate a yard stick! He was a physics
major. There were quite a few students at MIT who were really bright,
but didn't have a lick of sense or real world experience.

Several years later we had an MIT EE _grad_ student in my lab working on
his thesis. He wanted to build something for home with an LED. When he
started asking questions about how to do this, it became apparent that he
was a bit fuzzy on things like how many volts an LED required, what comes
out of a wall socket, ac vs dc, etc. It was scary.

Doug White

I love people who are educated beyond their capacity.


Not me. A lot end up in politics.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

Occurs to me, that at least two interviews are needed. The
HR to discern if the person is a leech, or a worker. And
someone from the plant, to see if the candidate has the
technical skills.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"RogerN" wrote in message
m...


I think you would be good at it. What I've ran across all
to often is that
the HR interviewer doesn't know much about the job and
doesn't realize the
kind of qualifications that are related. I went from office
equipment
repair to industrial equipment. Interviewers didn't
understand that reading
schematics and measuring voltage from the output of a photo
eye on office
equipment was more difficult that looking at the LED on an
industrial photo
eye. My electronics experience with office equipment was
applicable to
industrial equipment, but the industrial equipment is much
easier.

RogerN

There you go. The two level interview.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Buerste" wrote in message
...

Yep, I've been snookered a few times but no big deal. I
have a 90 day
probationary period and the head of the union will tell me
if the guy's a
worker or not and he wants his people to be a good team.

On 2010-01-30, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Occurs to me, that at least two interviews are needed. The
HR to discern if the person is a leech, or a worker. And
someone from the plant, to see if the candidate has the
technical skills.


How would HR determine if the person is a leech, or a worker?

i

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Occurs to me, that at least two interviews are needed. The
HR to discern if the person is a leech, or a worker. And
someone from the plant, to see if the candidate has the
technical skills.

Most of the shops I've interviewed in send you to the guy you're going
to be working for first, then HR.

The one place where I went to HR first, the interviewer's description
of the company management made me not bother with the rest.

David

In article ,
Ignoramus7752 wrote:

On 2010-01-30, Buerste wrote:
The deciding factor for me is a personal interview. I won't hire anybody
with their pants waist around their knees no matter what! I can usually
tell if somebody wants the satisfaction that comes with doing a good job or
if they just want a paycheck and will do as little as possible. I try and
engage the applicant in a friendly conversation and just listen to what
they
say or don't say.


I remember how in business school I was taught about a "study",
whereby interviewers talked to job applicants about general things and
formed impressions. Turns out that their impressions had little to do
with the future job performance of those hired.

I do believe this to be true based on what I have seen.

Some people are really good at bull****ting and manipulation and only
deep digging (asking detailed technical questions) can sort out those
BSers.

In any job interviews, I always ask "hard questions" that bull****ters
will not be able to answer correctly.

The worst interview suggestions are "body language" based suggestions,
paying attention to body language is truly a great way to get screwed.

I'll second that. I am an electrical engineer and have interviewed many
an engineer. Two cases stick out, both June grads from name
universities looking for their first job:

The EE football player. The interview was a struggle from the start and
ended early when in a burst of inspiration I asked the applicant to
discuss Ohm's Law (on resistances, voltages, and currents), and he had
no idea what I was talking about. (This is the EE equivalent of not
knowing fractions.) How did he even graduate? If he manages to get an
EE job, things will go very badly for him.

The handsome and well-spoken fellow with the nice well-rounded resume.
Everything went well until I asked him to describe his class project,
drawing a diagram and following the electrons et al around on the
drawing, and it soon developed that he though that to get motor motion
it was enough to send the data to the PROM. There were other like
symptoms. Obviously, he had never directly worked on this project, or
he would have had a lot to say about each and every component, right
down to the mounting screws.


Joe Gwinn

"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote:
But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows
everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN


When I was in business, I would never hire anyone who had been in a
union.

Steve

Too bad, I was in a union and the most important lesson I learned was how
bad they were.

But you wouldn't hire me in spite of my having learned my lesson.

David

I remember you. You wanted the break between the application and the
interview.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:37:10 -0600, the infamous "David R.Birch"
scrawled the following:

Steve B wrote:
But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows
everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN


When I was in business, I would never hire anyone who had been in a
union.

Steve



Too bad, I was in a union and the most important lesson I learned was
how bad they were.

But you wouldn't hire me in spite of my having learned my lesson.

Don't feel too bad, Davey. He probably wouldn't hire a recovering
Democrat or ex-con, either. He realizes that vast majority of those
birds don't change their stripes.

Congrats on changing yours. My first job was as a boxboy and I got the
same realization you did the Teamsters. Never again. After union
dues and extra taxes, the 65 cent "raise" I got for joining the union
resulted in mere pennies. I watched the union guys behind the scenes
at a COMDEX in Vegas a decade or so ago. What a crock! Most weren't
working, all waiting for the union electrician who could legally plug
a cord into an outlet, since they were barred from doing so. And on it
goes.


And the electricians were barred from moving freight. When crafts respect
each other's jobs, there's more work. You might have observed for a day or
two, but you didn't learn much.

The convention business in Vegas is dismal. Light years away from what it
was decades ago. Out of towners, and under the table deals.

Steve, who retired with 37 yrs. Teamster Union, a decent pension, and
continuing good benefits.

But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN

I have found out that the guy you actually hire shows up about two weeks
after starting. They can all do good for about two weeks, then you find out
if you made a good choice or not.

Steve

On 1/30/2010 11:24 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

The EE football player. The interview was a struggle from the start and
ended early when in a burst of inspiration I asked the applicant to
discuss Ohm's Law (on resistances, voltages, and currents), and he had
no idea what I was talking about. (This is the EE equivalent of not
knowing fractions.) How did he even graduate?

My son had a good one a couple of months ago. He was interviewing a
Freshout MSEE from a prestigious three letter institute. Newly minted
electronic engineer didn't know what that triangular symbol with the
plus and minus hooked up to the two resistors was. Was convinced that
digital electronics always consumed the same power, no matter what the
clock speed.

Having said that, the business of hiring is screwy. A student of my
acquaintance is getting out in June with an MBA, MSME, and a BS in
physics. A couple of published papers. Very impressive engineering
project resume. Good (summer) engineering work history. No solid offers.
In the past someone like this would have to hand out numbers to the HR
departments. What gives?

Kevin Gallimore

Steve B wrote:
"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote:
But, would you prefer an employee that knows nothing but is able and
willing to quickly learn everything, or an employee that knows
everything
and can't be taught anything?

RogerN

When I was in business, I would never hire anyone who had been in a
union.

Steve
Too bad, I was in a union and the most important lesson I learned was how
bad they were.

But you wouldn't hire me in spite of my having learned my lesson.

David

I remember you. You wanted the break between the application and the
interview.

Nope, I was the guy being told by my fellow union members that my
productivity was making them look bad.

They asked, "why do you do more than you have to?"

I replied, "self respect, why would I do less than I can?"

I was not a good union man.

But you are too narrow minded to hire me.

Or for me to want to work for you.

David

"Steve B" wrote:

When I was in business, I would never hire anyone who had been in a union.

The rule at the job prior to the current one was after 30 days you have to join the union.
I was 2 days from having to join when my current employer made an offer.

The only reason I was in a union shop was because it was a job and I needed one. I wasn't
planning on staying if I could help it.

I did get a glimpse of union rule though. The lunch room turned into an election
headquarters for the democratic party and it was assumed you will support the democrats.

I've never saw a company lunchroom in a non union shop used for political purposes.

Do I get extra points for hiring in at a place where the employees decertified their union
a few years before I was hired?


Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Steve B" wrote:

I have found out that the guy you actually hire shows up about two weeks
after starting. They can all do good for about two weeks, then you find out
if you made a good choice or not.


If that isn't the truth.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Ignoramus10246 wrote:

How would HR determine if the person is a leech, or a worker?

They often make calls to references. I recieved quite a few when in a previous position.
Still got a few calls after the place closed.

Bad guys, I refered them to our HR with a company policy is no comment from me. Good
guys, I'd say something like, Joe is applying with you? Hell of a worker, ect, but I'm
supposed to let HR handle this stuff.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller