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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#41
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Cleaning up the shop
wrote in message ... On Jan 26, 1:24 am, Hawke wrote: Some of the less perceptive insurance companies were publishing studies showing that to be on the safe side, the typical couple should have about 1,000,000$ in savings when they retired. Just how is it possible that the typical couple could accumulate 20 years of pre tax income over even a 50 year working life? [20-70] especially with *NEGATIVE* savings interest? In that situation you have to do what they guy in the TV show Breaking Bad does. You go into the meth business in your spare time. Other than that there is no way to save yourself into financial security on 50K a year. Hawke Actually you can save enough to have financial security on 50K$ a year. It just requires that you start saving and investing early in life. I don't think you can do it putting your money in a savings account. But you can do it by having some money put in a savings account every week. And then when you have a chunk of money, looking for a good place to invest it. Right now I would be looking at buying rental property and investing some sweat equity in managing the rental property. Might be a bad idea in some parts of the country. But there are lots of places to invest. Dan Reply: Instead of rental property, we do our two houses in Vegas as vacation rentals. You can get twice the monthly mortgage in a week. Less hassle than renters. Not for everyone, and location is everything. Check out www.vrbo.com to skip around the world and see what types of houses you can rent for your next location, mostly anywhere. The prices are very reasonable, as most rentals have pots, pans, etc, and you just bring clothes and food. Cooking in lessens costs, and makes it a more family vacation. Many houses have pools, and that's better than swimming in the common hotel pools. Not for everyone, but perfect for some. And a good money maker, too. Steve |
#42
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Cleaning up the shop
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:38:19 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote: wrote in message ... On Jan 26, 1:24 am, Hawke wrote: Some of the less perceptive insurance companies were publishing studies showing that to be on the safe side, the typical couple should have about 1,000,000$ in savings when they retired. Just how is it possible that the typical couple could accumulate 20 years of pre tax income over even a 50 year working life? [20-70] especially with *NEGATIVE* savings interest? In that situation you have to do what they guy in the TV show Breaking Bad does. You go into the meth business in your spare time. Other than that there is no way to save yourself into financial security on 50K a year. Hawke Actually you can save enough to have financial security on 50K$ a year. It just requires that you start saving and investing early in life. I don't think you can do it putting your money in a savings account. But you can do it by having some money put in a savings account every week. And then when you have a chunk of money, looking for a good place to invest it. Right now I would be looking at buying rental property and investing some sweat equity in managing the rental property. Might be a bad idea in some parts of the country. But there are lots of places to invest. Dan Reply: Instead of rental property, we do our two houses in Vegas as vacation rentals. You can get twice the monthly mortgage in a week. Less hassle than renters. Not for everyone, and location is everything. Check out www.vrbo.com to skip around the world and see what types of houses you can rent for your next location, mostly anywhere. The prices are very reasonable, as most rentals have pots, pans, etc, and you just bring clothes and food. Cooking in lessens costs, and makes it a more family vacation. Many houses have pools, and that's better than swimming in the common hotel pools. Not for everyone, but perfect for some. And a good money maker, too. Steve ================ This segues into a long running discussion in vocational education called the individual/case v aggrigate/generic debate. An expansion of this discussion can be seen at Tussing, D. (1997 Fall) ECN 358 / WSP 358 Economics of U. S. Poverty and Discrimination. Syracuse University: http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/classes/ECN358/ http://www1.maxwell.syr.edu/uploaded..._CV.pdf?n=6060 http://www.gdrc.org/sustdev/causes-poverty.html What this boils down is that what may work and work well for an individual, or even a limited number of individuals, does not work as a universal rule or for even a significant fraction of the population. High wage skills or high return investments depend on two factors: (1) the market demand and (2) the supply. When either factor is missing the value falls. For example, there may be a market demand for CNC machinists, but if there are 10 qualified applicants for every available jobs the wages will drop, possibly to minimum wage because of the oversupply. The same holds true for vacation house rentals in Vagas. If thousands of people do this, the resulting glut will quickly drive the rental prices down to less than break-even. As for the suggestion that the individual invest in other than government insured instruments such as FDIC savings account and T bills, for a higher return, I suggest looking at the record, including the banks and quasi governmental operations such as Freddy and Fanny. Names like Enron, Silverado and LTCM also rise to the top. see http://www.bankruptcyresources.net/2...-bankruptcies/ http://www.dirjournal.com/business-j...went-bankrupt/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis Unka George (George McDuffee) ............................... The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#43
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Cleaning up the shop
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:07:56 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote: snip a bunch of good stuff This segues into a long running discussion in vocational education called the individual/case v aggrigate/generic debate. snip more good stuff ========== Following up my follow-up... For a discussion of how major corporate bankruptcies impact the aggregate economy see http://www.simon.rochester.edu/news-...omy/index.aspx Mainly a discussion about GM/Chrysler but applies to all. Unka George (George McDuffee) ............................... The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#44
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Cleaning up the shop
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:38:19 -0800, "Steve B" wrote: wrote in message ... On Jan 26, 1:24 am, Hawke wrote: Some of the less perceptive insurance companies were publishing studies showing that to be on the safe side, the typical couple should have about 1,000,000$ in savings when they retired. Just how is it possible that the typical couple could accumulate 20 years of pre tax income over even a 50 year working life? [20-70] especially with *NEGATIVE* savings interest? In that situation you have to do what they guy in the TV show Breaking Bad does. You go into the meth business in your spare time. Other than that there is no way to save yourself into financial security on 50K a year. Hawke Actually you can save enough to have financial security on 50K$ a year. It just requires that you start saving and investing early in life. I don't think you can do it putting your money in a savings account. But you can do it by having some money put in a savings account every week. And then when you have a chunk of money, looking for a good place to invest it. Right now I would be looking at buying rental property and investing some sweat equity in managing the rental property. Might be a bad idea in some parts of the country. But there are lots of places to invest. Dan Reply: Instead of rental property, we do our two houses in Vegas as vacation rentals. You can get twice the monthly mortgage in a week. Less hassle than renters. Not for everyone, and location is everything. Check out www.vrbo.com to skip around the world and see what types of houses you can rent for your next location, mostly anywhere. The prices are very reasonable, as most rentals have pots, pans, etc, and you just bring clothes and food. Cooking in lessens costs, and makes it a more family vacation. Many houses have pools, and that's better than swimming in the common hotel pools. Not for everyone, but perfect for some. And a good money maker, too. Steve ================ This segues into a long running discussion in vocational education called the individual/case v aggrigate/generic debate. An expansion of this discussion can be seen at Tussing, D. (1997 Fall) ECN 358 / WSP 358 Economics of U. S. Poverty and Discrimination. Syracuse University: http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/classes/ECN358/ http://www1.maxwell.syr.edu/uploaded..._CV.pdf?n=6060 http://www.gdrc.org/sustdev/causes-poverty.html What this boils down is that what may work and work well for an individual, or even a limited number of individuals, does not work as a universal rule or for even a significant fraction of the population. High wage skills or high return investments depend on two factors: (1) the market demand and (2) the supply. When either factor is missing the value falls. For example, there may be a market demand for CNC machinists, but if there are 10 qualified applicants for every available jobs the wages will drop, possibly to minimum wage because of the oversupply. The same holds true for vacation house rentals in Vagas. If thousands of people do this, the resulting glut will quickly drive the rental prices down to less than break-even. As for the suggestion that the individual invest in other than government insured instruments such as FDIC savings account and T bills, for a higher return, I suggest looking at the record, including the banks and quasi governmental operations such as Freddy and Fanny. Names like Enron, Silverado and LTCM also rise to the top. see http://www.bankruptcyresources.net/2...-bankruptcies/ http://www.dirjournal.com/business-j...went-bankrupt/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis Unka George (George McDuffee) I didn't say it was for everyone. If you READ my post, I have more than one disclaimer. It is only MY opinion, and what I do, and am sure it would not work for everyone. It's just a hell of a lot better than putting up with POS renters. Steve |
#45
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Cleaning up the shop
On Jan 26, 6:07*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
Actually you can save enough to have financial security on 50K$ a year. *It just requires that you start saving and investing early in life. *I don't think you can do it putting your money in a savings account. *But you can do it by having some money put in a savings account every week. *And then when you have a chunk of money, looking for a good place to invest it. *Right now I would be looking at buying rental property and investing some sweat equity in managing the rental property. *Might be a bad idea in some parts of the country. But there are lots of places to invest. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan As for the suggestion that the individual invest in other than government insured instruments such as FDIC savings account and T bills, for a higher return, I suggest looking at the record, including the banks and quasi governmental operations such as Freddy and Fanny. *Names like Enron, Silverado and LTCM also rise to the top. seehttp://www.bankruptcyresources.net/2010/01/11/major-bankruptcies/http://www.dirjournal.com/business-journal/some-major-us-companies-th... andhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis Unka George *(George McDuffee) If you want to get a reasonable return on your money, you have to put in some effort. Many people will spend more time reading the sports section of the paper than the financial section. They are probably better off investing in a FDIC insured savings account. But if you are willing to put some effort into investing, you will do a lot better than investing in a savings account. Think about it. What are the banks doing? They are taking the money deposited in savings accounts and putting in some effort. They loan the money out to people that the banks have determined are likely to pay the money back. And thereby getting a higher return than they pay on the savings accounts. The same applies to mutual funds. They do the thinking for you and take some of the money. I too suggest looking at the record. Say Iggy's record. Or Steve's record. Or anyone that actually put some effort into investing. Dan |
#46
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Cleaning up the shop
Ignoramus22882 wrote:
Wes, did you tow your bridgeport with a car?????? For that I borrowed my uncle and his truck and the same for the lathe. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#47
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Cleaning up the shop
Gunner Asch wrote:
Mine is store bought be it avoids my having to have a truck. http://wess.freeshell.org/usenet/rec...railerload.jpg Wes Whats the weight rating on that garden trailer Wes? I see some of the local landscapers using these, and have repair welded a number of them. Any problems with yours? Says 2000# GVWR. I haven't had any problems other than I need to do a repaint. Powder coat hasn't held up well. Everyone in my family loves borrowing it. I consider it one of my better investments in tools. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#48
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Cleaning up the shop
Ignoramus29432 wrote:
Very good. The risk is taken by the party that is able to pay (insurance co). The drivers pay a bit extra for the peace of mind. The insurance company takes no risk, there is a pool that is funded by the drivers subject to increases or decreases. We do get piece of mind but the insurance company doesn't have additional risk. If I understand it correctly, the insurance company insures you up to a certain dollar amount and after that, the state pool takes over. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#49
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Cleaning up the shop
On 2010-01-26, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus22882 wrote: Wes, did you tow your bridgeport with a car?????? For that I borrowed my uncle and his truck and the same for the lathe. OK, I am calming down a little bit. You have a great uncle. i |
#50
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Cleaning up the shop
Ignoramus22882 wrote:
On 2010-01-26, Wes wrote: Ignoramus22882 wrote: Wes, did you tow your bridgeport with a car?????? For that I borrowed my uncle and his truck and the same for the lathe. OK, I am calming down a little bit. You have a great uncle. i Yes I do. He has one of the door openers for the garage, er shop, my tools are his tools. I've only extended that philosopy to one or two of my guns though. You have to draw a line somewhere. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#51
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Cleaning up the shop
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 00:20:42 -0800, John R. Carroll wrote:
Give me a break. Carly Fiorina is just as bad and she's running for the US Senate seat Boxer occupies. I watched her say that she's very pleased to run on her record of acomplishments in business. .. The board at HP got rid of her ass just in time. Let's not forget that before HP she was at AT&T/Lucent, and that didn't turn out that well either. I believe she owns part of the responsibility for gutting Bell Labs. |
#52
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Cleaning up the shop
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:16:22 -0800, John R. Carroll wrote:
You couldn't say that tort reform is a key to health care cost reductions after reading it and yet that is the first thing out of many mouths when rapidly increasing costs come up. Tort reform can't work without health care insurance reform. At the core of the current medical malpractice system is the assumption that injured people are on their own, so they have to claw back enough resources to take care of themselves for the rest of their lives. Between "preexisting condition" exclusions, lack of guaranteed lifetime continuity of insurance and arbitrary coverage limits, nobody can count on being covered. We are all just one job loss and one illness away from an existential threat. Under such circumstances, suing for damages is simply the most rational choice for someone saddled with a long-term health handicap. The money, nominally for past events, can't really compensate for damage already done -- instead, it ensures that future needs are met. If health-insurance reform gave an assurance of some level of care to people injured by malpractice, there would be much less incentive to sue. The entire moral, economic and legal argument for the tort system would change, making it much easier to reform. |
#53
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Cleaning up the shop
Przemek Klosowski wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:16:22 -0800, John R. Carroll wrote: You couldn't say that tort reform is a key to health care cost reductions after reading it and yet that is the first thing out of many mouths when rapidly increasing costs come up. Tort reform can't work without health care insurance reform. At the core of the current medical malpractice system is the assumption that injured people are on their own, so they have to claw back enough resources to take care of themselves for the rest of their lives. Between "preexisting condition" exclusions, lack of guaranteed lifetime continuity of insurance and arbitrary coverage limits, nobody can count on being covered. We are all just one job loss and one illness away from an existential threat. Under such circumstances, suing for damages is simply the most rational choice for someone saddled with a long-term health handicap. The money, nominally for past events, can't really compensate for damage already done -- instead, it ensures that future needs are met. If health-insurance reform gave an assurance of some level of care to people injured by malpractice, there would be much less incentive to sue. The entire moral, economic and legal argument for the tort system would change, making it much easier to reform. The idea that reforming America's tort system will meaningfully reduce the cost of health care is provably, and proven, false. The numbers, industry or other, reveal that malpractice awards are a sliver of policy premiums on the one hand, and the places where it's been done have seen no reduction in the cost of either malpractice policies or health care. It's just that simple. When you want to reduce the cost of something, you go where the money is, not where it isn't. -- John R. Carroll |
#54
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Cleaning up the shop
Przemek Klosowski wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 00:20:42 -0800, John R. Carroll wrote: Give me a break. Carly Fiorina is just as bad and she's running for the US Senate seat Boxer occupies. I watched her say that she's very pleased to run on her record of acomplishments in business. .. The board at HP got rid of her ass just in time. Let's not forget that before HP she was at AT&T/Lucent, and that didn't turn out that well either. I believe she owns part of the responsibility for gutting Bell Labs. Her move to HP circumvented what certainly would have been her dismissal. The only thing she didn't screw up was her compensation/severance package. -- John R. Carroll |
#55
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Cleaning up the shop
On Jan 28, 9:42*am, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
When you want to reduce the cost of something, you go where the money is, not where it isn't. -- John R. Carroll I think it is more like " When you want to reduce the cost of something, you go to all the places the money is. " Dan |
#56
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Cleaning up the shop
wrote in message ... On Jan 28, 9:42 am, "John R. Carroll" wrote: When you want to reduce the cost of something, you go where the money is, not where it isn't. -- John R. Carroll I think it is more like " When you want to reduce the cost of something, you go to all the places the money is. " Dan Not speaking for John, but it seems to me that his point is that you set your priorities based on where there can be the largest savings. Tort reform will be a big disappointment to many people, should it happen, when they find out that the total awards in malpractice suits (and estimated out-of-court settlements) amounts to roughly 0.5% of our health bill. And that's from a study done by the insurance industry itself. They have every incentive to inflate the number. Substantially larger is the cost of malpractice *insurance*. But that amount is still small. Much larger than either is the cost of "defensive medicine" that supposedly is the result of all of the lawsuits. Some estimates(by Price Waterhouse, for example) put it as high as 12% of our total health care costs. Charles Krauthammer, not known for making cautious claims g, says it's something over 20%. But no serious or independent study ranks it that high. The thing is, the "defensive medicine" issue is not what it appears to be, either. The evidence is self-reported and those doing the surveys say there is a strong reason to believe that doctors overrepresent the numbers by a large amount. Also, there's little evidence that it will be reduced by "reforming" tort laws, for a variety of reasons. In some cases, insurers expect more misdiagnoses, and thus more lawsuits that would result from shielding doctors from large liabilities. So tort reform is a good idea, for psychological reasons if nothing else, but you won't find much money there to be saved. We have a 50% problem -- our rates are 50% higher than most of the developed world, with similar results -- and saving 10% or so, if that really is possible, isn't going to heal the wound. We need to look under some other rocks for the money. -- Ed Huntress |
#57
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Cleaning up the shop
On Jan 28, 9:20*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Jan 28, 9:42 am, "John R. Carroll" wrote: When you want to reduce the cost of something, you go where the money is, not where it isn't. -- John R. Carroll I think it is more like " When you want to reduce the cost of something, you go to all the places the money is. " * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Not speaking for John, but it seems to me that his point is that you set your priorities based on where there can be the largest savings. Tort reform will be a big disappointment to many people, should it happen, when they find out that the total awards in malpractice suits (and estimated out-of-court settlements) amounts to roughly 0.5% of our health bill. And that's from a study done by the insurance industry itself. They have every incentive to inflate the number. Substantially larger is the cost of malpractice *insurance*. But that amount is still small. Much larger than either is the cost of "defensive medicine" that supposedly is the result of all of the lawsuits. Some estimates(by Price Waterhouse, for example) put it as high as 12% of our total health care costs. Charles Krauthammer, not known for making cautious claims g, says it's something over 20%. But no serious or independent study ranks it that high. The thing is, the "defensive medicine" issue is not what it appears to be, either. The evidence is self-reported and those doing the surveys say there is a strong reason to believe that doctors overrepresent the numbers by a large amount. Also, there's little evidence that it will be reduced by "reforming" tort laws, for a variety of reasons. In some cases, insurers expect more misdiagnoses, and thus more lawsuits that would result from shielding doctors from large liabilities. So tort reform is a good idea, for psychological reasons if nothing else, but you won't find much money there to be saved. We have a 50% problem -- * our rates are 50% higher than most of the developed world, with similar results -- and saving 10% or so, if that really is possible, isn't going to heal the wound. We need to look under some other rocks for the money. -- Ed Huntress Agreed. But my point is that if you are trying to save money, you do everything that will save money. You don't say that is only a quarter on the floor, I will not bother to pick it up. Passing Tort Reform might be only good for psychological reasons, but it would help. We need to look under all the rocks for the money. Dan |
#58
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Cleaning up the shop
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#59
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Cleaning up the shop
On Feb 1, 3:57*am, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Passing Tort Reform might be only good for psychological reasons, but it would help. We need to look under all the rocks for the money. Ok, but starting with boulders rather than pebbles is only good sense. -- John R. Carroll Normally I would agree. But in this case I think passing some sort of Tort reform would take away the claim that the Democrats are not serious about reducing costs ( because they are not addressing tort reform ). Dan |
#60
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Cleaning up the shop
wrote in message ... On Feb 1, 3:57 am, "John R. Carroll" wrote: Passing Tort Reform might be only good for psychological reasons, but it would help. We need to look under all the rocks for the money. Ok, but starting with boulders rather than pebbles is only good sense. -- John R. Carroll Normally I would agree. But in this case I think passing some sort of Tort reform would take away the claim that the Democrats are not serious about reducing costs ( because they are not addressing tort reform ). Dan I would agree if there is a portion that reforms the worker's comp laws that allow workmen to be screwed by the "law". Steve |
#61
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Cleaning up the shop
Steve B wrote:
wrote in message ... On Feb 1, 3:57 am, "John R. Carroll" wrote: Passing Tort Reform might be only good for psychological reasons, but it would help. We need to look under all the rocks for the money. Ok, but starting with boulders rather than pebbles is only good sense. -- John R. Carroll Normally I would agree. But in this case I think passing some sort of Tort reform would take away the claim that the Democrats are not serious about reducing costs ( because they are not addressing tort reform ). There is no argument that tort reform will significantly reduce health-care costs Steve. What the Dems really ought to do is tort reform on its own rather than as what is effectively and earmark stuck on unrelated legislation. I would agree if there is a portion that reforms the worker's comp laws that allow workmen to be screwed by the "law". I guess you, and a lot of other people, haven't figured out that workman's comp coverage would look a lot different if basic health-care coverage were universally mandated. Hell, homeowners, or really any, insurance rates would drop if they had a health-care component. Health-care is the single largest component, by far, in any workman's comp claim. Wage replacement as disability income payments is a tiny portion in comparison. Workman's compensation policy premiums would go nearly to zero and that would be a real BOON for business, especially small business. They are unfairly dissadvantaged the most because of the nature of underwriting in that area. In the skilled trades, it would amount to a decrease in real wage labor costs of between ten and twenty percent here in California. Were anyone to do the math on the tax credit being extended for new hires VS the unemployment insurance fund payments if you lay that new hire off, it becomes easy to see that the tax credit isn't going to get a single new hire into a place that has anyone with an IQ higher than a pea running it. You get an opportunity to expose yourself to ten or fifteen thousand dollars of payments if you lay off the hired person for a one time shot at five grand. It's the dumbest thing I've seen yet. Well, almost. -- John R. Carroll |
#62
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Cleaning up the shop
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#63
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Cleaning up the shop
On Feb 3, 6:59*pm, Hawke wrote:
.. That is all the talk about tort reform is, it's a way to avoid addressing the real problem. Hawke That is what I said. Pass tort reform and then Congress will have to address the problem realistically. Or don't pass tort reform and spend years trying to pass healthcare reform. Dan |
#64
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OT Cleaning up the shop
wrote in message ... On Feb 3, 6:59 pm, Hawke wrote: .. That is all the talk about tort reform is, it's a way to avoid addressing the real problem. Hawke That is what I said. Pass tort reform and then Congress will have to address the problem realistically. Or don't pass tort reform and spend years trying to pass healthcare reform. Dan pass campaign finance reform and they'd have to deal with tort reform and pass health care reform. b.w. |
#65
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Cleaning up the shop
On 1/25/2010 10:34 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:18:52 -0600, Ignoramus29432 wrote: On 2010-01-25, Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:09:32 -0500, Wes wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: So, a hypothetical guy who loses a job and does not even have money to pay very reasonable COBRA rates, does not get too much of my sympathy, personally. Nor I. I paid for my health insurace for the 8 months I was between jobs. How did you do this? I saved money in good times against bad times. I have modest needs and wants. Wes And you didnt have an uninsured wife with serious medical issues? In your case, you are divorced, right? No, Im not. And I have my (ex-)wife living with me in the same house. Wait - you're not divorced, but you have an ex-wife living with you in the same house? Does that mean you were divorced and remarried, and both your wife and ex-wife live with you? But wait! In May 2017, you said you had been married to "this wonderful woman" for 43 years. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater 2017 - 43 = 1974. So were you married to your ex-wife some time before 1974? But you only graduated from high school in 1971, and then you said you *immediately* went off to kill Vietnamese. If you married your current wife in 1974, why would your ex-wife be living in your house with you in 2010? You just can't keep your lies straight, you goddamned dole chiseler and *THIEF*. |
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