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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

Bruce,

The Brits use a scheme when a branch circuit starts and ends in a breaker panel. In other
words, you feed a branch loop from both ends. This has the effect of doubling the wiring
feeding a device.

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers didn't like
working with 12 ga.

Somewhere I read that loop wiring is illegal. Do you know where that reference is in the
NEC? If I ever run another branch string, I'd be willing to run 14 out and back if it is
legal.

Wes
--

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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring


Wes wrote:

Bruce,

The Brits use a scheme when a branch circuit starts and ends in a breaker panel. In other
words, you feed a branch loop from both ends. This has the effect of doubling the wiring
feeding a device.

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers didn't like
working with 12 ga.

Somewhere I read that loop wiring is illegal. Do you know where that reference is in the
NEC? If I ever run another branch string, I'd be willing to run 14 out and back if it is
legal.



It's not legal in the US. If you get a loose connection somewhere in
the ring it isn't obvious until something catches fire.

Another difference is that 'ring circuits' are like small bus bars
and everything that gets plugged in is fused at the plug because the
ring is 30A @ 240 VAC. The British keep bragging about the concept on
some of the electronics groups.


--
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:19:46 -0500, Wes wrote:

Bruce,

The Brits use a scheme when a branch circuit starts and ends in a breaker panel. In other
words, you feed a branch loop from both ends. This has the effect of doubling the wiring
feeding a device.

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers didn't like
working with 12 ga.

Somewhere I read that loop wiring is illegal. Do you know where that reference is in the
NEC? If I ever run another branch string, I'd be willing to run 14 out and back if it is
legal.


As far as I know there's no specific prohibition, but there are
several restrictions on parallel conductors that would make a loop
connection unacceptable.

See Articles 300.3 and 310.4.

--
Ned Simmons
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:54:30 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Wes wrote:

Bruce,

The Brits use a scheme when a branch circuit starts and ends in a breaker panel. In other
words, you feed a branch loop from both ends. This has the effect of doubling the wiring
feeding a device.

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers didn't like
working with 12 ga.

Somewhere I read that loop wiring is illegal. Do you know where that reference is in the
NEC? If I ever run another branch string, I'd be willing to run 14 out and back if it is
legal.



It's not legal in the US. If you get a loose connection somewhere in
the ring it isn't obvious until something catches fire.


Gets even better - Since we use 120V here, you might be tempted to
connect 120/240V 3-wire as a ring circuit - and now you have some Real
Nasty failure modes. The neutral goes open, the circuit goes into
voltage imbalance, and everything connected on the side that goes high
starts blowing up...

Then once it all goes open on A Phase, the imbalance swings the other
way and the gear on the B Phase starts blowing up...

Another difference is that 'ring circuits' are like small bus bars
and everything that gets plugged in is fused at the plug because the
ring is 30A @ 240 VAC. The British keep bragging about the concept on
some of the electronics groups.


Besides, we don't have any fusible receptacles available, you'd have
to kludge something up at each receptacle.

The Arson Investigators don't like seeing kludges, and worse word
gets back to the homeowners insurance company and you don't have
coverage anymore.

-- Bruce --
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:54:30 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Wes wrote:

Bruce,

The Brits use a scheme when a branch circuit starts and ends in a breaker panel. In other
words, you feed a branch loop from both ends. This has the effect of doubling the wiring
feeding a device.

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers didn't like
working with 12 ga.

Somewhere I read that loop wiring is illegal. Do you know where that reference is in the
NEC? If I ever run another branch string, I'd be willing to run 14 out and back if it is
legal.



It's not legal in the US. If you get a loose connection somewhere in
the ring it isn't obvious until something catches fire.


Gets even better - Since we use 120V here, you might be tempted to
connect 120/240V 3-wire as a ring circuit - and now you have some Real
Nasty failure modes. The neutral goes open, the circuit goes into
voltage imbalance, and everything connected on the side that goes high
starts blowing up...

Then once it all goes open on A Phase, the imbalance swings the other
way and the gear on the B Phase starts blowing up...

Another difference is that 'ring circuits' are like small bus bars
and everything that gets plugged in is fused at the plug because the
ring is 30A @ 240 VAC. The British keep bragging about the concept on
some of the electronics groups.


Besides, we don't have any fusible receptacles available, you'd have
to kludge something up at each receptacle.

The Arson Investigators don't like seeing kludges, and worse word
gets back to the homeowners insurance company and you don't have
coverage anymore.



The only thing I've ever seen that was even close to a ring circuit
that was legal in the US were old commercial fire alarms with a 10 amp
current loop. It looped back to the alarm cabinet for the adjustable
EOL resistor, and monitoring. In some modes, it was a ring, but the
normal operation was just a loop to the EOL resistor, inside the large
metal cabinet to dissipate the waste heat. A man i worked for right
after high school serviced Edwards and Standard Electric alarms and
school clocks.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.


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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

On Jan 23, 1:54*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:19:46 -0500, Wes wrote:
Bruce,


The Brits use a scheme when a branch circuit starts and ends in a breaker panel. *In other
words, you feed a branch loop from both ends. *This has the effect of doubling the wiring
feeding a device.


I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. *I asked my brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier to terminate.
I belive him. *My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers didn't like
working with 12 ga.


Somewhere I read that loop wiring is illegal. *Do you know where that reference is in the
NEC? *If I ever run another branch string, I'd be willing to run 14 out and back if it is
legal.


As far as I know there's no specific prohibition, but there are
several restrictions on parallel conductors that would make a loop
connection unacceptable.

See Articles 300.3 and 310.4.

--
Ned Simmons


What about an Edison circuit?
Are they still legal?

Two hots and one common. IIRC
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

In article ,
Wes wrote:

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my
brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier
to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers
didn't like
working with 12 ga.


You used fingers? I use my pliers - and I much prefer having heavy wire
(and 20 amp breakers) run, having lived in a variety of places with
substandard wiring. I leave 14 gauge & 15 amps for lighting circuits
with limited draw. I dislike being left in the dark, so I keep lighting
and outlets separated always.

I don't trust the push-in wiring on some outlets, though I see the GFCI
outlet my electrician supplied has a variant I approve of - straight-in
back wiring _with_ a clamp screw. Easy, but actually solidly connected.
On push-in outlets (no screw clamp) I just bend the wire and connect to
the screws. Not terribly difficult with pliers and 12 gauge.

The thing I get irritated with is the single ground screw, which means
you keep having to fark around with a pigtail and wirenut to run a
series of outlets. Most of the time THREE places to connect a ground
wire would be really nice (in, out, box.) Two would work well enough
(just leave one wire end long to connect to the box) but one is
frustrating.

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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
Wes wrote:

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my
brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier
to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers
didn't like
working with 12 ga.


You used fingers? I use my pliers - and I much prefer having heavy wire
(and 20 amp breakers) run, having lived in a variety of places with
substandard wiring. I leave 14 gauge & 15 amps for lighting circuits
with limited draw. I dislike being left in the dark, so I keep lighting
and outlets separated always.

I don't trust the push-in wiring on some outlets, though I see the GFCI
outlet my electrician supplied has a variant I approve of - straight-in
back wiring _with_ a clamp screw. Easy, but actually solidly connected.
On push-in outlets (no screw clamp) I just bend the wire and connect to
the screws. Not terribly difficult with pliers and 12 gauge.

The thing I get irritated with is the single ground screw, which means
you keep having to fark around with a pigtail and wirenut to run a
series of outlets. Most of the time THREE places to connect a ground
wire would be really nice (in, out, box.) Two would work well enough
(just leave one wire end long to connect to the box) but one is
frustrating.


I just grab my handy bail former pliers.
Strip the wire, stick the ends into the pliers, squeeze and instant
perfect loop. For those who have never seen them they have a round anvil
on one side and a U shaped former on the other.
Mine are custom made ones for wiring. It has steps on it that match
common wire sizes.

--
Steve W.
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:38:20 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:54:30 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Wes wrote:

Bruce,

The Brits use a scheme when a branch circuit starts and ends in a breaker panel. In other
words, you feed a branch loop from both ends. This has the effect of doubling the wiring
feeding a device.

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers didn't like
working with 12 ga.

Somewhere I read that loop wiring is illegal. Do you know where that reference is in the
NEC? If I ever run another branch string, I'd be willing to run 14 out and back if it is
legal.


It's not legal in the US. If you get a loose connection somewhere in
the ring it isn't obvious until something catches fire.


Gets even better - Since we use 120V here, you might be tempted to
connect 120/240V 3-wire as a ring circuit - and now you have some Real
Nasty failure modes. The neutral goes open, the circuit goes into
voltage imbalance, and everything connected on the side that goes high
starts blowing up...

Then once it all goes open on A Phase, the imbalance swings the other
way and the gear on the B Phase starts blowing up...

Another difference is that 'ring circuits' are like small bus bars
and everything that gets plugged in is fused at the plug because the
ring is 30A @ 240 VAC. The British keep bragging about the concept on
some of the electronics groups.


Besides, we don't have any fusible receptacles available, you'd have
to kludge something up at each receptacle.

The Arson Investigators don't like seeing kludges, and worse word
gets back to the homeowners insurance company and you don't have
coverage anymore.



The only thing I've ever seen that was even close to a ring circuit
that was legal in the US were old commercial fire alarms with a 10 amp
current loop. It looped back to the alarm cabinet for the adjustable
EOL resistor, and monitoring. In some modes, it was a ring, but the
normal operation was just a loop to the EOL resistor, inside the large
metal cabinet to dissipate the waste heat. A man i worked for right
after high school serviced Edwards and Standard Electric alarms and
school clocks.



Crom but I remember those with distain and contempt. Schools ran them
longer than real people.

Add some window foil at 5 amps...blink blink..you could watch the ice
and snow melt where the foil on the windows was.

Gunner, ran an alarm company for 18 yrs, then managed a Cincinnati Time
3 office company


Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:39:27 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
Wes wrote:

I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. I asked my
brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier
to terminate.
I belive him. My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers
didn't like
working with 12 ga.


You used fingers? I use my pliers - and I much prefer having heavy wire
(and 20 amp breakers) run, having lived in a variety of places with
substandard wiring. I leave 14 gauge & 15 amps for lighting circuits
with limited draw. I dislike being left in the dark, so I keep lighting
and outlets separated always.

I don't trust the push-in wiring on some outlets, though I see the GFCI
outlet my electrician supplied has a variant I approve of - straight-in
back wiring _with_ a clamp screw. Easy, but actually solidly connected.
On push-in outlets (no screw clamp) I just bend the wire and connect to
the screws. Not terribly difficult with pliers and 12 gauge.

The thing I get irritated with is the single ground screw, which means
you keep having to fark around with a pigtail and wirenut to run a
series of outlets. Most of the time THREE places to connect a ground
wire would be really nice (in, out, box.) Two would work well enough
(just leave one wire end long to connect to the box) but one is
frustrating.


I just grab my handy bail former pliers.
Strip the wire, stick the ends into the pliers, squeeze and instant
perfect loop. For those who have never seen them they have a round anvil
on one side and a U shaped former on the other.
Mine are custom made ones for wiring. It has steps on it that match
common wire sizes.



Ive never seen one. Got a link?

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.


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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring


Gunner Asch wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The only thing I've ever seen that was even close to a ring circuit
that was legal in the US were old commercial fire alarms with a 10 amp
current loop. It looped back to the alarm cabinet for the adjustable
EOL resistor, and monitoring. In some modes, it was a ring, but the
normal operation was just a loop to the EOL resistor, inside the large
metal cabinet to dissipate the waste heat. A man i worked for right
after high school serviced Edwards and Standard Electric alarms and
school clocks.


Crom but I remember those with distain and contempt. Schools ran them
longer than real people.



Part of that was at the state level. They wouldn't allow electronic
alarms in some states for decades becasue they 'weren't a proven
technology'. Some only changed when they were told that there were no
repair parts for the old systems, and that the existing hardware was no
longer certified by the OEM.


Add some window foil at 5 amps...blink blink..you could watch the ice
and snow melt where the foil on the windows was.



If the glass didn't crack.


Gunner, ran an alarm company for 18 yrs, then managed a Cincinnati Time
3 office company



--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

jk wrote:


That has NOTHING to do with loop circuits. From the point of view of
loosing the neutral, the two wires of the loop, look JUST the same as
the one of the radial system. There is no difference.

What the loop does do is provide a more even impedance to a given
point in the circuit. The impedance reaches a peak at 1/2 way round
the circuit, and then starts dropping again.



My question had nothing to do with trying to eek out additional ampacity from a system as
the British do.

I scanned though my copy of the NEC and have not found the phrase that makes ring wiring,
staying in the normal rules for box fill, ampacity of conductors, ect illegal.

Is threre something like a branch circuit must be fed from one end only or something like
that? I'm just trying to imagine the language.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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Ecnerwal wrote:

You used fingers? I use my pliers - and I much prefer having heavy wire
(and 20 amp breakers) run, having lived in a variety of places with
substandard wiring. I leave 14 gauge & 15 amps for lighting circuits
with limited draw. I dislike being left in the dark, so I keep lighting
and outlets separated always.


Not for forming the loops, but bending the wires and screwing on wire nuts is getting a
bit hard as my phalanges age.

Lighting and utility recepts on same circuit in same room seems rather stupid to me also.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:04:44 -0500, Wes wrote:

jk wrote:


That has NOTHING to do with loop circuits. From the point of view of
loosing the neutral, the two wires of the loop, look JUST the same as
the one of the radial system. There is no difference.

What the loop does do is provide a more even impedance to a given
point in the circuit. The impedance reaches a peak at 1/2 way round
the circuit, and then starts dropping again.



My question had nothing to do with trying to eek out additional ampacity from a system as
the British do.

I scanned though my copy of the NEC and have not found the phrase that makes ring wiring,
staying in the normal rules for box fill, ampacity of conductors, ect illegal.

Is threre something like a branch circuit must be fed from one end only or something like
that? I'm just trying to imagine the language.


300.3Conductors.
....
(B)Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit
and, where used, the grounded conductor
and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding con-
ductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxil-
iary gutter, cabletray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or
cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with
300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).

(1)ParalleledInstallations. Conductors shall be permit-
ted to be run in parallel in accordance with the provisions
of 310.4 ...

......

310.4 Conductors in Parallel.
(A) General. Aluminum, copper-clad aluminum, or copper
conductors of size 1/0 AWG and larger, comprising each
phase, polarity, neutral, orgrounded circuit conductor shall
be permitted to be connected in parallel (electrically joined
at both ends).

I read that to mean you can run 1/0 and larger conductors in parallel
if they're run together. 12 ga romex daisy-chained around the
perimeter of a room with both ends tied to the breaker would be (1)
too small and (2) not "within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter,
cabletray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord."

--
Ned Simmons
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

someone wrote:


Gets even better - Since we use 120V here, you might be tempted to
connect 120/240V 3-wire as a ring circuit - and now you have some Real
Nasty failure modes. The neutral goes open, the circuit goes into
voltage imbalance, and everything connected on the side that goes high
starts blowing up...

Then once it all goes open on A Phase, the imbalance swings the other
way and the gear on the B Phase starts blowing up...


That has NOTHING to do with loop circuits. From the point of view of
loosing the neutral, the two wires of the loop, look JUST the same as
the one of the radial system. There is no difference.

What the loop does do is provide a more even impedance to a given
point in the circuit. The impedance reaches a peak at 1/2 way round
the circuit, and then starts dropping again.


Another difference is that 'ring circuits' are like small bus bars
and everything that gets plugged in is fused at the plug because the
ring is 30A @ 240 VAC. The British keep bragging about the concept on
some of the electronics groups.


WHich I think is a more reliable system from a safety point of view,
but a real PITA at the plug end.

OUrs are like bus bars too, but without fuses at the terminations.




The only thing I've ever seen that was even close to a ring circuit
that was legal in the US were old commercial fire alarms w



RIng systems are used in the US all the time,.....at medium voltage.


I don't think strictly speaking that it would be a code violation, IF
both ends of the loop were connected to the same branch circuit
device, AND it was listed to terminate multiple conductors, AND the
device was sized to protect the wire size, not the parallel
combination..

Where it COULD be interpreted as a violation is that you are
essentially paralleling two conductors at sizes that may be smaller
than those allowed.

jk


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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:00:04 -0800, jk wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:



310.4 Conductors in Parallel.
(A) General. Aluminum, copper-clad aluminum, or copper
conductors of size 1/0 AWG and larger, comprising each
phase, polarity, neutral, orgrounded circuit conductor shall
be permitted to be connected in parallel (electrically joined
at both ends).

I read that to mean you can run 1/0 and larger conductors in parallel
if they're run together. 12 ga romex daisy-chained around the
perimeter of a room with both ends tied to the breaker would be (1)
too small and (2) not "within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter,
cabletray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord."



The question is, is a "ring" really parallel conductors. I could
argue it either way.

jk


There's something in the NEC to the effect of (and it's 1:25 AM so
I'm not looking it up now...) 'Parallel conductors on the same
circuit must be the same length and conductor construction (AL or CU)
and wire gauge and insulation temperature class, etc.' so the currents
are evenly balanced between the individual conductors.

On a ring circuit, there can only be one point where this is even
remotely possible.

And with low voltages (up to ~600V) it is normally done with two or
more conduits in parallel following the same routing, each with A, B,
C phases, Neutral and Safety Ground. Then you pre-cut the wires
before pulling (and trim slack evenly between them all) so they are
the exact same length (within a foot or so) to keep the resistance
balanced.

That way the magnetic forces inside each conduit mostly cancel
themselves out - when you get a short circuit at the far end the
conduits are far less likely to try to leap away from each other, rip
themselves off the walls or the ceiling or the Unistrut racking, and
make an even bigger mess.

-- Bruce --
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On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:58:59 -0800 (PST), Half-Nutz
wrote:

On Jan 23, 1:54*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:19:46 -0500, Wes wrote:
Bruce,


The Brits use a scheme when a branch circuit starts and ends in a breaker panel. *In other
words, you feed a branch loop from both ends. *This has the effect of doubling the wiring
feeding a device.


I've wired my recepts with 12ga which sucks compared to 14ga. *I asked my brother that is
in the trade why 14 is popular and he told me it is because it is way easier to terminate.
I belive him. *My last garage improvement project wtih 52 year old fingers didn't like
working with 12 ga.


Somewhere I read that loop wiring is illegal. *Do you know where that reference is in the
NEC? *If I ever run another branch string, I'd be willing to run 14 out and back if it is
legal.


As far as I know there's no specific prohibition, but there are
several restrictions on parallel conductors that would make a loop
connection unacceptable.

See Articles 300.3 and 310.4.

--
Ned Simmons


What about an Edison circuit?
Are they still legal?

Two hots and one common. IIRC


Sure. If you have 120/208V Wye 3-Phase, you can go three hots and
one common if you want. All on different phases, of course.

The restriction is, you can not use a receptacle or other device to
splice through the neutral wire if it's a multi-phase circuit - you
have to pigtail the neutral with a permanent splice (wirenut) and take
the single pigtail wire out to the device.

Way too many receptacle screws go loose after many years, or worse
they use the Quickwire stab-ins that go high resistance... Then you
develop an unbalanced circuit, and the fireworks begin.

Tracked one of those down a few weeks ago - and if they did it in
three condo units (that I've found so far...) they probably wired the
majority of the ~1,000 units in the complex the same way.

To do it right, you need to ty-rap or otherwise tag that the neutral
is shared among those hots only, and be careful not to mix and match
hot to neutral relationships when you hit multiple-feed boxes like the
Kitchen Sink - where you have the three-wire circuit passing through
for Dishwasher and Disposal, and a Lighting and an Appliance
Receptacle circuit or two, all meeting in one two-gang box.

If you don't show discipline you can overload one neutral by
throwing the returns from a few more circuits onto it. Neutral wires
should not glow.

-- Bruce --
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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:00:04 -0800, jk wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:



310.4 Conductors in Parallel.
(A) General. Aluminum, copper-clad aluminum, or copper
conductors of size 1/0 AWG and larger, comprising each
phase, polarity, neutral, orgrounded circuit conductor shall
be permitted to be connected in parallel (electrically joined
at both ends).

I read that to mean you can run 1/0 and larger conductors in parallel
if they're run together. 12 ga romex daisy-chained around the
perimeter of a room with both ends tied to the breaker would be (1)
too small and (2) not "within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter,
cabletray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord."



The question is, is a "ring" really parallel conductors. I could
argue it either way.


I suppose you could argue that they're not physically parallel, but
the parenthetical at the end of 310.4(A) anticipates that quibble when
it says, "parallel (electrically joined at both ends)." Or do you
have something else in mind?

--
Ned Simmons
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Bending and forcing 12ga into boxes was easier when the overall diameter was
larger and the insulaion was more flexible/softer.

I use a section of 1/2" hardwood dowel with a sort-of screwdriver end
(parallel sides for ~1") and a slot at the other end for manipulating wires.
I made it years ago for work in hot panels, but it works well for any solid
wiring tasks.

Any time I've ever worked with wire nuts, I've wanted to make a socket to
drive them on with a cordless drill, but never got around to it.
I'd use a vise-grip firmly (no crushing) attached axially to the nut to give
a greater turning torque advantage because I always want to get them tight
(not just on) even though the wires are twisted together tightly.

I think there are commercially made drive sockets for wire nuts now, and
also the bent rod swivel tool (no drill required).

There are some wiring plier-type tools (stripper, etc) that have a notch
sorta like a bottle opener, and a hole, that make bending the screw loops
very easy.

I've never wired building receptacles with anything smaller than 12ga.
(around the screws) and find it annoying when I discover that others have.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Wes" wrote in message
...
Ecnerwal wrote:

You used fingers? I use my pliers - and I much prefer having heavy wire
(and 20 amp breakers) run, having lived in a variety of places with
substandard wiring. I leave 14 gauge & 15 amps for lighting circuits
with limited draw. I dislike being left in the dark, so I keep lighting
and outlets separated always.


Not for forming the loops, but bending the wires and screwing on wire nuts
is getting a
bit hard as my phalanges age.

Lighting and utility recepts on same circuit in same room seems rather
stupid to me also.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller


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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

Wes wrote in
:

Ecnerwal wrote:

Not for forming the loops, but bending the wires and screwing on wire
nuts is getting a bit hard as my phalanges age.

Here ya go, even has a different driver with a hole for forming loops.

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/S...rring_Tool.htm


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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:19:12 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:00:04 -0800, jk wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:



310.4 Conductors in Parallel.
(A) General. Aluminum, copper-clad aluminum, or copper
conductors of size 1/0 AWG and larger, comprising each
phase, polarity, neutral, orgrounded circuit conductor shall
be permitted to be connected in parallel (electrically joined
at both ends).

I read that to mean you can run 1/0 and larger conductors in parallel
if they're run together. 12 ga romex daisy-chained around the
perimeter of a room with both ends tied to the breaker would be (1)
too small and (2) not "within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter,
cabletray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord."



The question is, is a "ring" really parallel conductors. I could
argue it either way.


I suppose you could argue that they're not physically parallel, but
the parenthetical at the end of 310.4(A) anticipates that quibble when
it says, "parallel (electrically joined at both ends)." Or do you
have something else in mind?



Since the thing started off talking about the UK ring-main circuit, there is
an additional bit of information that adds weight to your code stipulations:-

There have been two standards in the UK for industrial plugs and sockets:-

BS196 AKA Reyrolle. This standard is pretty-well obsolete, but still
permitted. It has non-reversible plugs that have either one fuse, for circuits
with line and neutral (at earth voltage) or two fuses for circuits with two
lines. The fuses are effectively the pins of the plug. This system allows
circuits to be radial or ring in topology with no limit on the number of
sockets.

BS4343 AKA Commando. This standard is current and commonly used for 110V,
240V, 415V three phase (4 or 5 wire). It has non-reversible plugs, specified
colours and keying for different voltage systems and has no fuse in the plug.
No limit on the number of sockets, but circuit must be radial.

It might be local prejudice, but compared with current UK plugs and sockets,
all of the US NEMA connectors I've seen, from NEMA 1 to the NEMA twist-lock
series, look as if they were designed by a suicidal school dropout!

Ignoring that un-called for comment. The point of the post is that it seems
that ring circuits should only be used where you have fusing at each
individual connection. If the plugs or receptacles don't have their own fuses,
a radial circuit is preferred.


regards
Mark Rand
RTFM
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On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:15:12 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:04:44 -0500, Wes wrote:
jk wrote:
That has NOTHING to do with loop circuits. From the point of view of
loosing the neutral, the two wires of the loop, look JUST the same as
the one of the radial system. There is no difference.

What the loop does do is provide a more even impedance to a given point
in the circuit. The impedance reaches a peak at 1/2 way round the
circuit, and then starts dropping again.

....
I scanned though my copy of the NEC and have not found the phrase that
makes ring wiring, staying in the normal rules for box fill, ampacity of
conductors, ect illegal.

Is threre something like a branch circuit must be fed from one end only
or something like that? I'm just trying to imagine the language.

300.3Conductors.
...
(B)

snip
310.4 Conductors in Parallel.

snip
I read that to mean you can run 1/0 and larger conductors in parallel if
they're run together. 12 ga romex daisy-chained around the perimeter of
a room with both ends tied to the breaker would be (1) too small and (2)
not "within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cabletray, cablebus
assembly, trench, cable, or cord."


I don't have my NEC book at hand so can't look it up at the moment,
but an electrician told me that each breaker can only have one wire
attached to it. That would preclude hooking both ends of a loop to
one breaker.

--
jiw
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Doc wrote:

Wes wrote in
:

Ecnerwal wrote:

Not for forming the loops, but bending the wires and screwing on wire
nuts is getting a bit hard as my phalanges age.

Here ya go, even has a different driver with a hole for forming loops.

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/S...rring_Tool.htm


I got to get me one of these, maybe another one for my master electrician brother. Second
thought, I'll just show him mine and let him buy his.

Being more of a machining oriented guy, I debur conduit when I have to run it with my
Glo-Burr deburing tool

Thanks.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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"Wild_Bill" wrote:

Any time I've ever worked with wire nuts, I've wanted to make a socket to
drive them on with a cordless drill, but never got around to it.
I'd use a vise-grip firmly (no crushing) attached axially to the nut to give
a greater turning torque advantage because I always want to get them tight
(not just on) even though the wires are twisted together tightly.


Towards the end of the last job, I was using my needle nose pliers to pick up the wings of
the wire nuts to ease the loads my thumb. That helped a lot. Funny how my bionic hands
turned into achy breaky in the span of a year.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:32:27 -0800, jk wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:

O

I suppose you could argue that they're not physically parallel, but
the parenthetical at the end of 310.4(A) anticipates that quibble when
it says, "parallel (electrically joined at both ends)." Or do you
have something else in mind?



I would argue that in the sense that the code means, there is only 1
end.


You could also say it's a loop so there are *no* ends. But I
personally don't have the crust to have that conversation with the
code inspector. g

--
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Ned Simmons wrote:



310.4 Conductors in Parallel.
(A) General. Aluminum, copper-clad aluminum, or copper
conductors of size 1/0 AWG and larger, comprising each
phase, polarity, neutral, orgrounded circuit conductor shall
be permitted to be connected in parallel (electrically joined
at both ends).

I read that to mean you can run 1/0 and larger conductors in parallel
if they're run together. 12 ga romex daisy-chained around the
perimeter of a room with both ends tied to the breaker would be (1)
too small and (2) not "within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter,
cabletray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord."



The question is, is a "ring" really parallel conductors. I could
argue it either way.

jk
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Default Hey Bruce, ring wiring

I mentioned fish oil softgels a few days ago. It's made an incredible
difference in the comfort and flexibility of my hands.

I understand what you mean about the rapid onset, it happened the same way
with me, and within a short time it was moderately severe.

It's a cheap supplement from discount stores (maybe $5 for 120 count 1000mg)
and I routinely take 1k to 2k mg per day.

About 2 months after I started taking it, there was a very noticeable
difference. I rarely have an ache, sharp pain or stiff finger joints anymore
(maybe twice in a year), but if I do, it's very brief.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Wes" wrote in message
...

Towards the end of the last job, I was using my needle nose pliers to pick
up the wings of
the wire nuts to ease the loads my thumb. That helped a lot. Funny how
my bionic hands
turned into achy breaky in the span of a year.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller


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On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:09:48 -0500, Ecnerwal
wrote:


The thing I get irritated with is the single ground screw, which means
you keep having to fark around with a pigtail and wirenut to run a
series of outlets. Most of the time THREE places to connect a ground
wire would be really nice (in, out, box.) Two would work well enough
(just leave one wire end long to connect to the box) but one is
frustrating.


According to my understanding, you would not be allowed to take
advantage of multiple grounding screws on a receptacle.

250.148(B) says,

"The arrangement of grounding connections shall be such that the
disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, luminaire (fixture), or
other device fed from the box will not interfere with or interrupt the
grounding continuity."


--
Ned Simmons
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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:31:03 +0000 (UTC), the infamous Doc
scrawled the following:

Wes wrote in
:

Ecnerwal wrote:

Not for forming the loops, but bending the wires and screwing on wire
nuts is getting a bit hard as my phalanges age.

Here ya go, even has a different driver with a hole for forming loops.

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/S...rring_Tool.htm


Hey, only $29 for a single nut driver!

--
It is in his pleasure that a man really lives; it is from
his leisure that he constructs the true fabric of self.
-- Agnes Repplier
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Larry Jaques wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:31:03 +0000 (UTC), the infamous Doc
scrawled the following:

Wes wrote in
:

Ecnerwal wrote:

Not for forming the loops, but bending the wires and screwing on wire
nuts is getting a bit hard as my phalanges age.

Here ya go, even has a different driver with a hole for forming loops.

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/S...rring_Tool.htm


Hey, only $29 for a single nut driver!



How many nuts can you drive at one time?


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.


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Wes wrote:

"Wild_Bill" wrote:

I mentioned fish oil softgels a few days ago. It's made an incredible
difference in the comfort and flexibility of my hands.

I understand what you mean about the rapid onset, it happened the same way
with me, and within a short time it was moderately severe.

It's a cheap supplement from discount stores (maybe $5 for 120 count 1000mg)
and I routinely take 1k to 2k mg per day.

About 2 months after I started taking it, there was a very noticeable
difference. I rarely have an ache, sharp pain or stiff finger joints anymore
(maybe twice in a year), but if I do, it's very brief.


I was taking those things and ran out. Maybe I'll give them another try. Sure gave me an
evil burp



Not to mention, gills? ;-)


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
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"Wild_Bill" wrote:

I mentioned fish oil softgels a few days ago. It's made an incredible
difference in the comfort and flexibility of my hands.

I understand what you mean about the rapid onset, it happened the same way
with me, and within a short time it was moderately severe.

It's a cheap supplement from discount stores (maybe $5 for 120 count 1000mg)
and I routinely take 1k to 2k mg per day.

About 2 months after I started taking it, there was a very noticeable
difference. I rarely have an ache, sharp pain or stiff finger joints anymore
(maybe twice in a year), but if I do, it's very brief.


I was taking those things and ran out. Maybe I'll give them another try. Sure gave me an
evil burp

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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Ned Simmons wrote:

O

I suppose you could argue that they're not physically parallel, but
the parenthetical at the end of 310.4(A) anticipates that quibble when
it says, "parallel (electrically joined at both ends)." Or do you
have something else in mind?



I would argue that in the sense that the code means, there is only 1
end.

jk
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On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:32:55 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:09:48 -0500, Ecnerwal
wrote:


The thing I get irritated with is the single ground screw, which means
you keep having to fark around with a pigtail and wirenut to run a
series of outlets. Most of the time THREE places to connect a ground
wire would be really nice (in, out, box.) Two would work well enough
(just leave one wire end long to connect to the box) but one is
frustrating.


According to my understanding, you would not be allowed to take
advantage of multiple grounding screws on a receptacle.

250.148(B) says,

"The arrangement of grounding connections shall be such that the
disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, luminaire (fixture), or
other device fed from the box will not interfere with or interrupt the
grounding continuity."

All that means is that all ground wires must be attached to the box,
one should then continue to the receptacle, or a ground wire from the
fixture should be attached to the box. Thus removal of anything from
the box will not disturb the ground wires of the circuit.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
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On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:47:11 -0500, Gerald Miller
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:32:55 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:09:48 -0500, Ecnerwal
wrote:


The thing I get irritated with is the single ground screw, which means
you keep having to fark around with a pigtail and wirenut to run a
series of outlets. Most of the time THREE places to connect a ground
wire would be really nice (in, out, box.) Two would work well enough
(just leave one wire end long to connect to the box) but one is
frustrating.


According to my understanding, you would not be allowed to take
advantage of multiple grounding screws on a receptacle.

250.148(B) says,

"The arrangement of grounding connections shall be such that the
disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, luminaire (fixture), or
other device fed from the box will not interfere with or interrupt the
grounding continuity."

All that means is that all ground wires must be attached to the box,
one should then continue to the receptacle, or a ground wire from the
fixture should be attached to the box.


The grounds don't have to attach directly to the box. Most new
residential work here in the US uses non-metallic boxes, and most
metal boxes only have one tapped hole to attach a single pigtail. The
normal practice is to wire-nut together all the grounds that pass thru
the box, a pigtail to the recep, and one for the box, if it's metal.

Thus removal of anything from
the box will not disturb the ground wires of the circuit.


Yes.

--
Ned Simmons


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When I was doing commercial/residential electrical work back in the 70s, we
used copper Buchanan splice crimp connectors for the bare ground leads in
the steel boxes.

http://www.idealindustries.com/produ...splice_cap.jsp

http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/dept_...AC4BA49533FBB6

http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model_C-24.htm

With the ground leads exending out of the box, they were twisted together
firmly (just outside the box), then the crimp connector was slid down over
the leads to the center of the twists, and crimped.
That leaves 2 long pigails that can be trimmed to an appropriate length, to
secure to both a box screw and the receptacle strap earth ground screw.

While the capacity for the crimp connectors is up to 4- #12, slipping them
over 3- #12s that are twisted is all that will fit in them.
If more earth ground leads are needed, a long 3rd lead could be added to the
twist (about 12" long, twisted at about the middle), leaving 2 more securely
bonded pigtails.

I imagine some inspectors will be suspicious of anything that's not a more
recently approved product, such as the greenie nuts with a hole in the top,
but the Buchanan splice connectors have been used without problems for
decades in building wiring, inside appliances and other elecrical
equipment.

I've read comments of some inspectors that fail wire nuts used on ground
leads if they aren't green.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...

snippage

The thing I get irritated with is the single ground screw, which means
you keep having to fark around with a pigtail and wirenut to run a
series of outlets. Most of the time THREE places to connect a ground
wire would be really nice (in, out, box.) Two would work well enough
(just leave one wire end long to connect to the box) but one is
frustrating.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by


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