The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" writes:

The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Moving from boats to cars, one of the very few things I don't like about
modern Chrysler engines is the use of a press-fit for the crankshaft
pulley. Keyed pulleys are just incredibly easier to work with....
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a
fitting in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press
it back on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi
fitting to increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of
German engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each
piece has a slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.


Just in time!
Karl

The stupidity of this design is mind-boggling. Import engines,
especially Toyota, all have slip-on dampeners, with a couple 10's
clearance. There is absolutely no need to have a press fit, except to
demonstrate their inability to machine the crank and dampener to such
close tolerance.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:52:52 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"Karl Townsend" writes:

The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Moving from boats to cars, one of the very few things I don't like about
modern Chrysler engines is the use of a press-fit for the crankshaft
pulley. Keyed pulleys are just incredibly easier to work with....

"JR North" wrote in message
...
The stupidity of this design is mind-boggling. Import engines,
especially Toyota, all have slip-on dampeners, with a couple 10's
clearance. There is absolutely no need to have a press fit, except to
demonstrate their inability to machine the crank and dampener to such
close tolerance.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints as
those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that there is
no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in both mating
parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair things, but the
big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of repair. I wanted to
strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to replace a headlamp in my
Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was intentionally designed to tear
up your knuckles and to give you cramps in your fingers. g

--
Ed Huntress



On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:52:52 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"Karl Townsend" writes:

The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way.
To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a
fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it
back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece
has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Moving from boats to cars, one of the very few things I don't like about
modern Chrysler engines is the use of a press-fit for the crankshaft
pulley. Keyed pulleys are just incredibly easier to work with....

On 2010-01-09, William Wixon wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...


How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints as
those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that there
is no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in both
mating parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair things,
but the big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of repair. I
wanted to strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to replace a
headlamp in my Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was intentionally
designed to tear up your knuckles and to give you cramps in your fingers.
g



lol. i had to replace the battery in my mother's saturn, the acid leaked
and corroded the underlying metal structure, i wanted to do a GOOD job
(instead of just slapping another battery back in) so i took out the steel
battery tray. holy **** i was like "this m'f'er must've been designed by a
computer!" i had to take apart like the entire corner of the car to get the
battery tray out and clean and paint it and the parts under it. everything
was attached/bolted/clipped/overlaid/underlaid on top of/etc. everything
else.

Sadly, my 2007 (2007 classic, really a 2006) Chevy truck is like that,
also. (my Dodge was much better). Ease of repair is no longer a
priority.

i

"William Wixon" wrote in message
news

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...


How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints
as those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that
there is no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in
both mating parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair
things, but the big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of
repair. I wanted to strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to
replace a headlamp in my Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was
intentionally designed to tear up your knuckles and to give you cramps in
your fingers. g

--
Ed Huntress


lol. i had to replace the battery in my mother's saturn, the acid leaked
and corroded the underlying metal structure, i wanted to do a GOOD job
(instead of just slapping another battery back in) so i took out the steel
battery tray. holy **** i was like "this m'f'er must've been designed by
a computer!" i had to take apart like the entire corner of the car to get
the battery tray out and clean and paint it and the parts under it.
everything was attached/bolted/clipped/overlaid/underlaid on top of/etc.
everything else.

b.w.

This could be a really good group rant. I'll bet everyone here has some
stories like this. I have at least a half-dozen, but having to lower the
engine in my Caravan (said the manual) to replace the serpentine belt is my
personal best.

I fixed that particular problem permanently, BTW. One time when I had the
engine all unbolted and hanging down, I took a 3-pound maul, aimed it
carefully at the offending bulge in the right-side strut tower, and,
swinging it with two hands, gave the bulge one hell of a whack. I only
needed an extra 1/2" or so of clearance to begin with -- one would think
that Chrysler could have done something about that themselves.

Hoping that I hadn't bound up the suspension so that the wheel wouldn't move
up or down, I bolted the engine back in place and drove happily away.
Problem solved.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...


How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints as
those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that there
is no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in both
mating parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair things,
but the big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of repair. I
wanted to strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to replace a
headlamp in my Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was intentionally
designed to tear up your knuckles and to give you cramps in your fingers.
g

--
Ed Huntress


lol. i had to replace the battery in my mother's saturn, the acid leaked
and corroded the underlying metal structure, i wanted to do a GOOD job
(instead of just slapping another battery back in) so i took out the steel
battery tray. holy **** i was like "this m'f'er must've been designed by a
computer!" i had to take apart like the entire corner of the car to get the
battery tray out and clean and paint it and the parts under it. everything
was attached/bolted/clipped/overlaid/underlaid on top of/etc. everything
else.

b.w.

JR North wrote:

The stupidity of this design is mind-boggling. Import engines,
especially Toyota, all have slip-on dampeners, with a couple 10's
clearance. There is absolutely no need to have a press fit, except to
demonstrate their inability to machine the crank and dampener to such
close tolerance.

Press fits require pretty much the same tolerances, just on the negative
clearance side. I'd say it has a lot more to do with eliminating the
cost of milling a key slot, broaching a pulley, and providing a key....
But otherwise I totally agree.


Jon

On Jan 8, 7:50*pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Karl

I had to replace the input flange on a German 10,000 rpm 500 hp AC
dynamometer. The flange mounted on the slightly tapered stator shaft,
about 65 mm in diameter. Same deal, pump up to 2000 bar and pull off
with a slight push. Replacing was the reverse, a small bolt in the
end of the shaft with a washer to bear on the flange, and crank up the
pressure. The flange just glides into place. Very neat, but one
small scratch in the near mirror finished shaft surface and I'd guess
your screwed. A lot nicer than some other dynos I've worked on with
shrink fit straight shafts with keys.

Ed Huntress wrote:

This could be a really good group rant. I'll bet everyone here has some
stories like this. I have at least a half-dozen, but having to lower the
engine in my Caravan (said the manual) to replace the serpentine belt is my
personal best.

Late 80's Honda Accord. If you don't have a rack or means to get the car
off the ground a ways, and have to remove the lower center intake
manifold bolts from the top, well, it just ain't no fun...

My brother offered me a Maverick once dirt cheap. It had been our
grandmother's car and had been driven seldom and lightly. Had the 302.
I'd driven one of these before, they will get up and go. For the money,
I was about to jump, until Dad told me you have to undo engine mounts
and jack the engine up to get at one (or more?) of the spark plugs.

Years ago a friend had a nice clean Fiat X19 I admired. She offered to
let me take it out for a good spin, if I gave it a tune up, as her
boyfriend wouldn't touch it. Well after that disaster, neither would I.
Several very oddly bent wrenches are required just to access needed
fasteners on the distributor. But the best, though I certainly didn't do
it, was the water pump on that car. Now, being a dingy blonde, maybe she
got ripped off. But her car had air conditioning, something apparently
quite rare for that model. The stock water pump bearings would not take
the additional stress added by the compressor so it took a special pump
with a shaft extending out the back of the pump and alongside the block
to a support bearing. This made it impossible to remove the pump in the
car. So the entire engine had to be pulled out the bottom. $1400 for a
water pump, IIRC and 4 weeks waiting for it to come from Italy. I did
btw, enjoy the hell out of flogging it (the car) on some twisty roads.
Handles great. But I lost any interest I ever had in owning one...

Best vehicle I ever owned, from a maintenance point of view, was a 1964
Chevy 3/4 ton truck. I could open the hood and sit on the fender while
working on the engine...

Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

This could be a really good group rant. I'll bet everyone here has some
stories like this. I have at least a half-dozen, but having to lower the
engine in my Caravan (said the manual) to replace the serpentine belt is
my personal best.

Late 80's Honda Accord. If you don't have a rack or means to get the car
off the ground a ways, and have to remove the lower center intake manifold
bolts from the top, well, it just ain't no fun...

My brother offered me a Maverick once dirt cheap. It had been our
grandmother's car and had been driven seldom and lightly. Had the 302. I'd
driven one of these before, they will get up and go. For the money, I was
about to jump, until Dad told me you have to undo engine mounts and jack
the engine up to get at one (or more?) of the spark plugs.

Years ago a friend had a nice clean Fiat X19 I admired. She offered to let
me take it out for a good spin, if I gave it a tune up, as her boyfriend
wouldn't touch it. Well after that disaster, neither would I. Several very
oddly bent wrenches are required just to access needed fasteners on the
distributor. But the best, though I certainly didn't do it, was the water
pump on that car. Now, being a dingy blonde, maybe she got ripped off. But
her car had air conditioning, something apparently quite rare for that
model. The stock water pump bearings would not take the additional stress
added by the compressor so it took a special pump with a shaft extending
out the back of the pump and alongside the block to a support bearing.
This made it impossible to remove the pump in the car. So the entire
engine had to be pulled out the bottom. $1400 for a water pump, IIRC and 4
weeks waiting for it to come from Italy. I did btw, enjoy the hell out of
flogging it (the car) on some twisty roads. Handles great. But I lost any
interest I ever had in owning one...

Best vehicle I ever owned, from a maintenance point of view, was a 1964
Chevy 3/4 ton truck. I could open the hood and sit on the fender while
working on the engine...

Jon

Yeah, that's a pretty good collection you have there. IIRC, there was a
small Chevy (Monza?) of about the same size, and the same time, as the
Maverick. With the optional small-block, it had the same problem: you had to
partially lower the engine from the tranny end to get to the rear spark
plugs.

Regarding your truck, those were the days. Working on those cars was
actually fun. Sometimes they handed us too much fun. g

Oldjag could tell us about working on the two-stage chain drive for the
overhead cams on a Jaguar XK engine. He's probably worked on the older ones,
which had no automatic take-up for chain wear. I used to have to take all
that stuff off my friend's XK-120 to adjust that sucker every month. Of
course, the carbs on my MG required adjustment about every other week, so
there was plenty of that stuff to go around.

So it's a tradeoff. Which would you prefer? A car that you had to work on
every two weeks, but which was easy to work on, or one that's a b**ch but
almost never has to be touched until it gets old? If I can keep affording
new cars every once in a while, maybe I'll stick with the latter. Otherwise,
I'm going to find something old and cheap to fix, and call it my "hobby."

--
Ed Huntress

Jon Anderson wrote:

ears ago a friend had a nice clean Fiat X19 I admired. She offered to
let me take it out for a good spin, if I gave it a tune up, as her
boyfriend wouldn't touch it. Well after that disaster, neither would I.
Several very oddly bent wrenches are required just to access needed
fasteners on the distributor. But the best, though I certainly didn't do
it, was the water pump on that car. Now, being a dingy blonde, maybe she
got ripped off. But her car had air conditioning, something apparently
quite rare for that model. The stock water pump bearings would not take
the additional stress added by the compressor so it took a special pump
with a shaft extending out the back of the pump and alongside the block
to a support bearing. This made it impossible to remove the pump in the
car. So the entire engine had to be pulled out the bottom. $1400 for a
water pump, IIRC and 4 weeks waiting for it to come from Italy. I did
btw, enjoy the hell out of flogging it (the car) on some twisty roads.
Handles great. But I lost any interest I ever had in owning one...


Did you replace the timing belt every 20K miles?

Wes

William Wixon wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints as
those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that there
is no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in both
mating parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair things,
but the big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of repair. I
wanted to strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to replace a
headlamp in my Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was intentionally
designed to tear up your knuckles and to give you cramps in your fingers.
g

--
Ed Huntress


lol. i had to replace the battery in my mother's saturn, the acid leaked
and corroded the underlying metal structure, i wanted to do a GOOD job
(instead of just slapping another battery back in) so i took out the steel
battery tray. holy **** i was like "this m'f'er must've been designed by a
computer!" i had to take apart like the entire corner of the car to get the
battery tray out and clean and paint it and the parts under it. everything
was attached/bolted/clipped/overlaid/underlaid on top of/etc. everything
else.

b.w.



There is always one part the is installed first. Sadly, it seems like
that is the part you often want to replace first. I encountered this
often when I moonlighted in a major company's lawnmower service center.
Often, when you do it more than once or twice, you can figure out the
direct path, that helps speed things up a little.

By the end of that spring, I could do short blocks or swap transmissions
in about 1/2 hour. Total time from putting it on the bench to test
running the repaired machine.

By the end of that spring, I could do short blocks or swap transmissions
in about 1/2 hour. Total time from putting it on the bench to test
running the repaired machine.

Sadly, I can do a clutch replacement in a Ford tractor with the same speed.
I can even lay out all the wrenches I need in the correct order. No small
job, this involves splitting the tractor. Poorly designed PTO clutch in an
application that stresses the s#$t out of it. And I got four Ford tractors

Karl

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"JR North" wrote in message
...
The stupidity of this design is mind-boggling. Import engines,
especially Toyota, all have slip-on dampeners, with a couple 10's
clearance. There is absolutely no need to have a press fit, except to
demonstrate their inability to machine the crank and dampener to such
close tolerance.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints as
those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that there is
no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in both mating
parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair things, but the
big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of repair. I wanted to
strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to replace a headlamp in my
Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was intentionally designed to tear
up your knuckles and to give you cramps in your fingers. g

Your hands are too big, I bet.

War story: In the early 1970s, a penurious friend asked me to repair
the lightmeter on her old Nikon (F1?). The repair was easy - just
solder the wire back onto the meter, and lace the wire down with waxed
dental floss so it wouldn't flop and break.

Then I tried to put the camera back together. No dice - fingers too
large. This brought to mind those advertising shots of the assembly
area, with ranks of benches each with a five-foot-nothing woman at work.
Their thumbs might be the size of my pinky. Laughed, took camera back
apart, lengthened the wires, and then was able to reassemble the camera.

Joe Gwinn

JR North writes:

The stupidity of this design is mind-boggling. Import engines,
especially Toyota, all have slip-on dampeners, with a couple 10's
clearance. There is absolutely no need to have a press fit, except to
demonstrate their inability to machine the crank and dampener to such
close tolerance.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:52:52 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"Karl Townsend" writes:

The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Moving from boats to cars, one of the very few things I don't like about
modern Chrysler engines is the use of a press-fit for the crankshaft
pulley. Keyed pulleys are just incredibly easier to work with....

The weird thing there is that while Toyota gets the pulley right, in
general the 3.0 Toyota engine and the 1990 pickup it's installed in is
the miserable vehicle to work on that I've ever owned. My 2000 Intrepid
and 2007 Dakota are immeasurably better.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

Could you tell me a little more about WHERE the pressure was applied?
I could see simply pumping oil in between the shaft and the plate to get
it off, but that wouldn't work to get it back on.

Pete Stanaitis
----------------------
Karl Townsend wrote:
The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Karl

Ed Huntress wrote:

So it's a tradeoff. Which would you prefer? A car that you had to work on
every two weeks, but which was easy to work on, or one that's a b**ch but
almost never has to be touched until it gets old? If I can keep affording
new cars every once in a while, maybe I'll stick with the latter. Otherwise,
I'm going to find something old and cheap to fix, and call it my "hobby."

For the daily driver, reliability hands down. Got enough other 'stuff'
that needs doing. For a fun vehicle, being it a hot rod or 4x4, working
on it is just part of the game. Yeah, calling that a hobby works for me.


Jon

Wes wrote:

Did you replace the timing belt every 20K miles?


After helping with the 'tuneup' and taking it for a spin, I never
touched it again... Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice...


Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice...

LOL, got that backwards... But in retrospect and being aware of the Fix
It Again Tony acronym, it does sorta fit... G


Jon

Jon Anderson writes:

Ed Huntress wrote:

So it's a tradeoff. Which would you prefer? A car that you had to
work on every two weeks, but which was easy to work on, or one
that's a b**ch but almost never has to be touched until it gets old?
If I can keep affording new cars every once in a while, maybe I'll
stick with the latter. Otherwise, I'm going to find something old
and cheap to fix, and call it my "hobby."

For the daily driver, reliability hands down. Got enough other 'stuff'
that needs doing. For a fun vehicle, being it a hot rod or 4x4,
working on it is just part of the game. Yeah, calling that a hobby
works for me.

In the case of our Intrepid and Dakota, we get the best of both worlds.
They're easy to work on (aside from a few gaffes like that damned
press-fit pulley), and almost never need anything beyond routine
maintenance.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

spaco wrote:

Could you tell me a little more about WHERE the pressure was applied?
I could see simply pumping oil in between the shaft and the plate to get
it off, but that wouldn't work to get it back on.

Pete Stanaitis

If you were to maintain the high pressure oil in the cavity (with a
relief valve) while pressing the part in with even higher pressure,
wouldn't the oil pressure tend to expand the opening as well as
lubricating it as the higher pressure press forced some oil back through
the relief valve? A bit like blowing pressure into a rubber hose to keep
it open while pressing a shaft into it. We tend not to think of big
hunks of metal being flexible, but if the pressure is high enough...


----------------------
Karl Townsend wrote:
The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Karl

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"JR North" wrote in message
...
The stupidity of this design is mind-boggling. Import engines,
especially Toyota, all have slip-on dampeners, with a couple 10's
clearance. There is absolutely no need to have a press fit, except to
demonstrate their inability to machine the crank and dampener to such
close tolerance.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints
as
those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that there
is
no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in both
mating
parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair things, but
the
big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of repair. I wanted to
strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to replace a headlamp in
my
Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was intentionally designed to
tear
up your knuckles and to give you cramps in your fingers. g

Your hands are too big, I bet.

They're not very big, but they're a lot bigger than those of the average
Asian woman, I suspect.

They don't have nearly enough joints to do the job, either. I think you need
about five in each finger, and they have to bend in all axes.

BTW, I can change a bulb in the left headlamp in roughly 2 minutes. In the
right headlamp, it's a half-hour plus. And I need bent-tip needle-nose
pliers to release the spring clamp. I've had to replace the right bulb
twice, and my blood pressure probably jumped 20 points each time.


War story: In the early 1970s, a penurious friend asked me to repair
the lightmeter on her old Nikon (F1?). The repair was easy - just
solder the wire back onto the meter, and lace the wire down with waxed
dental floss so it wouldn't flop and break.

Then I tried to put the camera back together. No dice - fingers too
large. This brought to mind those advertising shots of the assembly
area, with ranks of benches each with a five-foot-nothing woman at work.
Their thumbs might be the size of my pinky. Laughed, took camera back
apart, lengthened the wires, and then was able to reassemble the camera.

Joe Gwinn

There's usually a solution. Sometimes it requires re-design. g

--
Ed Huntress

"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
William Wixon wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints
as those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that
there is no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in
both mating parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair
things, but the big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of
repair. I wanted to strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to
replace a headlamp in my Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was
intentionally designed to tear up your knuckles and to give you cramps
in your fingers. g

--
Ed Huntress


lol. i had to replace the battery in my mother's saturn, the acid leaked
and corroded the underlying metal structure, i wanted to do a GOOD job
(instead of just slapping another battery back in) so i took out the
steel battery tray. holy **** i was like "this m'f'er must've been
designed by a computer!" i had to take apart like the entire corner of
the car to get the battery tray out and clean and paint it and the parts
under it. everything was attached/bolted/clipped/overlaid/underlaid on
top of/etc. everything else.

b.w.

There is always one part the is installed first. Sadly, it seems like
that is the part you often want to replace first. I encountered this
often when I moonlighted in a major company's lawnmower service center.
Often, when you do it more than once or twice, you can figure out the
direct path, that helps speed things up a little.

By the end of that spring, I could do short blocks or swap transmissions
in about 1/2 hour. Total time from putting it on the bench to test
running the repaired machine.

Practice makes perfect. A friend of mine just sold his car service shop and
retired; he was very good, and would tackle anything. I used to spend an
hour or two every once in a while talking to him and watching him work (he
was also very sociable and tolerant g). The thing that amazed me was the
way he could cut through all of the stuff and get right to the part that
needed work. Since he worked on my cars and I always used to own at least
two manuals for each, one the factory manual, and had studied most jobs
before I decided to turn them over to him, I knew he wasn't following the
manuals at all.

I concluded that if I wasn't having fun, I wouldn't do the jobs myself.
Thinking about how an experienced mechanic could do the job in 1/10th the
time it took me gave me a shot of reality about saving money by doing it
myself.

But some of it is still fun -- or it would be, if I had a car that was fun
to work on. Sports cars were fun.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:36:28 -0800 (PST), oldjag
wrote:

SNIP
I had to replace the input flange on a German 10,000 rpm 500 hp AC
dynamometer. The flange mounted on the slightly tapered stator shaft,
about 65 mm in diameter. Same deal, pump up to 2000 bar and pull off
with a slight push. Replacing was the reverse, a small bolt in the
end of the shaft with a washer to bear on the flange, and crank up the
pressure. The flange just glides into place. Very neat, but one
small scratch in the near mirror finished shaft surface and I'd guess
your screwed. A lot nicer than some other dynos I've worked on with
shrink fit straight shafts with keys.


Hey Jag,

Jeeessssuuuussss !!!!!!!!!! A 500 horse, ten thousand RPM, ANYTHING
is kinda a sight to see, but on a 2-1/2" shaft?!?! Wow !!!!


Scary!!

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"JR North" wrote in message
...
The stupidity of this design is mind-boggling. Import engines,
especially Toyota, all have slip-on dampeners, with a couple 10's
clearance. There is absolutely no need to have a press fit, except to
demonstrate their inability to machine the crank and dampener to such
close tolerance.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints
as
those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that there
is
no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in both
mating
parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair things, but
the
big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of repair. I wanted to
strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to replace a headlamp in
my
Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was intentionally designed to
tear
up your knuckles and to give you cramps in your fingers. g

Your hands are too big, I bet.

They're not very big, but they're a lot bigger than those of the average
Asian woman, I suspect.

They don't have nearly enough joints to do the job, either. I think you need
about five in each finger, and they have to bend in all axes.

I've heard that they are very flexible.

Joe Gwinn


BTW, I can change a bulb in the left headlamp in roughly 2 minutes. In the
right headlamp, it's a half-hour plus. And I need bent-tip needle-nose
pliers to release the spring clamp. I've had to replace the right bulb
twice, and my blood pressure probably jumped 20 points each time.


War story: In the early 1970s, a penurious friend asked me to repair
the lightmeter on her old Nikon (F1?). The repair was easy - just
solder the wire back onto the meter, and lace the wire down with waxed
dental floss so it wouldn't flop and break.

Then I tried to put the camera back together. No dice - fingers too
large. This brought to mind those advertising shots of the assembly
area, with ranks of benches each with a five-foot-nothing woman at work.
Their thumbs might be the size of my pinky. Laughed, took camera back
apart, lengthened the wires, and then was able to reassemble the camera.

Joe Gwinn

There's usually a solution. Sometimes it requires re-design. g

"Karl Townsend" wrote:


By the end of that spring, I could do short blocks or swap transmissions
in about 1/2 hour. Total time from putting it on the bench to test
running the repaired machine.

Sadly, I can do a clutch replacement in a Ford tractor with the same speed.
I can even lay out all the wrenches I need in the correct order. No small
job, this involves splitting the tractor. Poorly designed PTO clutch in an
application that stresses the s#$t out of it. And I got four Ford tractors


I know the feeling. I'm getting really good at rebuilding a series of 165 - 460 GPM pumps
semi submerged. I really don't like plumbing that takes forklifts, chains and booms to
work on.

When you see something broken and grab *ALL* the tools you need from your box in one trip,
you have been working on it way too many times.


Wes

oldjag wrote:

I had to replace the input flange on a German 10,000 rpm 500 hp AC
dynamometer. The flange mounted on the slightly tapered stator shaft,
about 65 mm in diameter. Same deal, pump up to 2000 bar and pull off
with a slight push. Replacing was the reverse, a small bolt in the
end of the shaft with a washer to bear on the flange, and crank up the
pressure. The flange just glides into place. Very neat, but one
small scratch in the near mirror finished shaft surface and I'd guess
your screwed. A lot nicer than some other dynos I've worked on with
shrink fit straight shafts with keys.

How do these couplings work? I've having problems visualizing.

Thanks,

Wes

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

My 2000 Intrepid
and 2007 Dakota are immeasurably better.


Is that the Intrepid where your spark plug wires are run under the intake manifold? I
seem to remember a cow-orker bitching about that.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 13:50:02 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


SNIP SNIP

BTW, I can change a bulb in the left headlamp in roughly 2 minutes. In the
right headlamp, it's a half-hour plus. And I need bent-tip needle-nose
pliers to release the spring clamp. I've had to replace the right bulb
twice, and my blood pressure probably jumped 20 points each time.


At the downtown Toronto Canadian Tire service department about
198?):

CUSTOMER (looking at his bill) "WHAT !!!! 20 bucks to put in a 65
cent parking light bulb!! I'm not going to pay THAT !!!

SERVICE MANAGER (eyebrows raised) " Well, Sir, here its the old bulb
from your Jaguar which we saved for you to see. Now what would you
like us to do?"

CUSTOMER (grinning wide) "Well, you can just take the damn bulb out!!"

SERVICE MANAGER (calm smile) " OK, Sir. So, we'll change the bill for
you. (Bigger grin on the customers face now). We'll change it to 39
dollars."

CUSTOMER (shocked/choking) "What?!?!? Why !!"

SERVICE MANAGER " Well, Sir, it took almost an hour to put the 65 cent
bulb in, and I expect it will take a few minutes less to take it out,
and our service rate is twenty dollars per hour."

On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 23:03:36 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:

"William Wixon" wrote in message
news

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...


How do Toyota and others fix those dampeners to their shafts?

One advantage of a press fit, especially for such heavily loaded joints
as those between a flywheel and the shaft of a piston engine, is that
there is no keyway to weaken the shaft and to produce a stress raiser in
both mating parts. It's frustrating for those of us who like to repair
things, but the big issue today, as we've all noticed, is not ease of
repair. I wanted to strangle the nearest Korean last week when I had to
replace a headlamp in my Hyundai, in a place that looked like it was
intentionally designed to tear up your knuckles and to give you cramps in
your fingers. g

--
Ed Huntress


lol. i had to replace the battery in my mother's saturn, the acid leaked
and corroded the underlying metal structure, i wanted to do a GOOD job
(instead of just slapping another battery back in) so i took out the steel
battery tray. holy **** i was like "this m'f'er must've been designed by
a computer!" i had to take apart like the entire corner of the car to get
the battery tray out and clean and paint it and the parts under it.
everything was attached/bolted/clipped/overlaid/underlaid on top of/etc.
everything else.

b.w.

This could be a really good group rant. I'll bet everyone here has some
stories like this. I have at least a half-dozen, but having to lower the
engine in my Caravan (said the manual) to replace the serpentine belt is my
personal best.


Go find a FilterQueen and take it apart - you'll feel much better. Oughta
take you all of five minutes to pout it back together.

Wes writes:

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

My 2000 Intrepid
and 2007 Dakota are immeasurably better.


Is that the Intrepid where your spark plug wires are run under the
intake manifold? I seem to remember a cow-orker bitching about that.

Yes, and I've seen other people complain they're impossible. The thing
is, the car uses coil-on-plug ignition, so I have yet to need to replace
them. We'll see when the time comes....

(I'll just note that on the Toyota I complained about recently, access
to the PCV valve is blocked by the intake manifold plenum, and over a
dozen hoses are bolted to the underside of that plenum)
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 10:34:14 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


By the end of that spring, I could do short blocks or swap transmissions
in about 1/2 hour. Total time from putting it on the bench to test
running the repaired machine.

Sadly, I can do a clutch replacement in a Ford tractor with the same speed.
I can even lay out all the wrenches I need in the correct order. No small
job, this involves splitting the tractor. Poorly designed PTO clutch in an
application that stresses the s#$t out of it. And I got four Ford tractors


Hey Karl - When you get *that* good at doing the repair, it's time
for you to stop tilting at windmills and make some wholesale changes.

That's the time I would get frustrated, call the local Case or John
Deere dealer and see if they did it any better. See about trading in
one of the old Ford tractors, where someone who only plans to pull a
gang-mower and not pound on the PTO can get a lot more use out of it.

Me, when they changed to the new emissions gas with the MTBE and
Acetone and other mystery chemistry added, and that blew through the
old diaphragm material in a few weeks... I got my Corvair Fuel Pump
swaps down to five minutes (and always on the way in to work, never on
the way home...)

Then I finally got smart and installed an electric fuel pump,
bypassed the factory mechanical pump... Problem solved.

(NOW they make the diaphragm sheeting for the fuel pump kits with
the proper modern rubber blends that will hold up to the fuel. Where
the heck were they in the 1980's?)

-- Bruce --

Hey Karl - When you get *that* good at doing the repair, it's time
for you to stop tilting at windmills and make some wholesale changes.

That's the time I would get frustrated, call the local Case or John
Deere dealer and see if they did it any better. See about trading in
one of the old Ford tractors, where someone who only plans to pull a
gang-mower and not pound on the PTO can get a lot more use out of it.

Ya, its just a math problem for me. I got a new Deere for $40 K. I can
rebuild a clutch for about $250. You do the math, I need four.

Karl

In article ,
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Where
the heck were they in the 1980's?)

-- Bruce --

Shelburne Falls, MA, same as they are now, as you well know if you have
a Corvair. I'm not really missing the '65 turbo convertible body with
the 4-carb 140 motor swapped in I had for a few years. It was
interesting, but needed a great deal I didn't have time or money to give
it to be good. Especially in the salt-fest that is the northeastern US
in winter.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Where
the heck were they in the 1980's?)

-- Bruce --

Shelburne Falls, MA, same as they are now, as you well know if you have
a Corvair. I'm not really missing the '65 turbo convertible body with
the 4-carb 140 motor swapped in I had for a few years. It was
interesting, but needed a great deal I didn't have time or money to give
it to be good. Especially in the salt-fest that is the northeastern US
in winter.

--

Was that a John Fitch conversion on the Corvair? That's what I had in my
Monza convertible. In fact, I had the full Fitch treatment, except for the
Michelin tires and the short-stroke shift-lever riser.

--
Ed Huntress

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Where
the heck were they in the 1980's?)

-- Bruce --

Shelburne Falls, MA, same as they are now, as you well know if you have
a Corvair. I'm not really missing the '65 turbo convertible body with
the 4-carb 140 motor swapped in I had for a few years. It was
interesting, but needed a great deal I didn't have time or money to give
it to be good. Especially in the salt-fest that is the northeastern US
in winter.

--

Was that a John Fitch conversion on the Corvair? That's what I had in my
Monza convertible. In fact, I had the full Fitch treatment, except for the
Michelin tires and the short-stroke shift-lever riser.

I doubt it - I think/suspect it was just a motor swapped in when the
turbo motor got swapped out, well before my time.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 06:17:24 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

Hey Karl - When you get *that* good at doing the repair, it's time
for you to stop tilting at windmills and make some wholesale changes.

That's the time I would get frustrated, call the local Case or John
Deere dealer and see if they did it any better. See about trading in
one of the old Ford tractors, where someone who only plans to pull a
gang-mower and not pound on the PTO can get a lot more use out of it.

Ya, its just a math problem for me. I got a new Deere for $40 K. I can
rebuild a clutch for about $250. You do the math, I need four.

First order of business - Does the Deere clutch design hold up to
the work loads any better?

Second: Can you redesign the implement to lessen the load on the PTO
Clutches? Or redesign the clutch to handle the load better - someone
might have developed a retrofit kit to use a more robust clutch.

If it's a hydraulic load, you can put the pump off the crankshaft
instead of the PTO? Or you have a split hydraulic/driveshaft load,
you split the hydraulics to the crank and only leave the brush-hog
drive on the PTO clutch, or....

I don't know what you are doing or how, but if you think it through
there is often more than one way to skin a problem. Feel free to
elaborate, and we (the collective newsgroup) might be able to come up
with an elegant solution.

And of course you don't swap out all four tractors at once - you
wait for the Deere dealer to get a bit hungry (or wants to do the
model-year changeover) and offer a nice deal. Then pick the Ford that
is oldest and/or highest hours on the engine, and trade it off. And
in a few years, you do it again.

-- Bruce --

On Jan 8, 5:50*pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
The boat tranny took a dump. Its a ZF-301C behind a Cummins 450 horse
diesel. Took a trip to the ZF repair shop yesterday. The front of this
tranny has the flywheel transfer plate just press fit on - no key way. To
remove the plate, they hooked it up to 50,000 psi oil pressure on a fitting
in the plate just for this purpose. The interesting part, to press it back
on they put it in a 60 ton press and used the same 50,000 psi fitting to
increase the ID of the transfer plate. Interesting piece of German
engineering. The mechanics there didn't know, but I assume each piece has a
slight taper.

Boat should run again tomorrow.

Karl

Been a bit since I read about it, but one racing engine manufacturer
used to make up crankshafts the same way, I believe they had roller
bearing lowers on the rods. I believe it was SKF that came up with
that method. Had to have the factory jig to get the crank back
together, too. Seemed like a whole lot of effort to avoid having a
decent oil system and plain bearings. One backfire and the whole
crank was trash, no keys to retain angular positioning. A triumph of
engineering over common sense.

Stan