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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#81
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Emerson Electric
On Dec 7, 4:48*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Yooper" wrote in message .. . In article , says... Have you heard the one about the gang-bangers at the desert pistol range? That one was far more imaginative. d8-) *I think my favorite was his snow camping at minus 60 deg. *I was born up here, been here 62 years, and it's never hit -60. Mmm.. he musta used a different scale. g -- Ed Huntress Like when he tells the girls about his male enhancement. ;) TMT |
#82
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Emerson Electric
On Dec 8, 1:13*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Or would you rather be a sheeple led around by your master? TMT Typical ad hominem argument. Dan |
#83
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Emerson Electric
Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:832a013f-8d27-4706-
: And you can thank George Bush for the destruction of America. Sorry to have to burst your bubble but this has been an ongoing thing since the 1920s at least - when companies started importing cheap products to replace those that the Unionized Workers' salary demands had made unprofitable. GWB wasn't even born yet, you idiot! |
#84
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Emerson Electric
"Ignoramus8601" wrote in message ... I personally disagree with him trying to discount my political views by bringing up where I came from. It makes it difficult to have a meaningful discourse. i Also the part where he fantasizes that all the people he disagrees with will be mass murdered in three years. That doesn't help either. |
#85
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Emerson Electric
On 2009-12-08, ATP* wrote:
"Ignoramus8601" wrote in message ... I personally disagree with him trying to discount my political views by bringing up where I came from. It makes it difficult to have a meaningful discourse. Also the part where he fantasizes that all the people he disagrees with will be mass murdered in three years. That doesn't help either. Well, his time horizon keeps shifting, so I am not too worried about it. i |
#86
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Emerson Electric
On Dec 7, 5:58*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Ignoramus8601" wrote in message ... On 2009-12-07, Ed Huntress wrote: Perhaps you missed the part of gummer's post where he demonstrated yet again that he should have paid more attention in grade school. He said he's been paying taxes for 45 years, which would make him 11 when he started. There is two possibilities of his statement being true: First off, that wasn't me you quoted. I don't call him gummer. 1) He may be referring to sales taxes In 1963, Michigan's sales tax was raised to 6%. So maybe if was spending, oh, say $90,000/year. That would be $5,400. Then the tax would go to pay for all of the things in Michigan's budget that are paid for by sales tax. Hmmm....maybe if he spent $900,000/year. That's one hell of an allowance, or a really big paper route. 2) Maybe during childhood, he had some investments in his name and had to pay taxes on capital gains and income. Iggy, Iggy...please. d8-) 2 seems highly unlikely and 1 is questionable as to whether it qualifies as taxes. g No, I didn't miss it. I just don't waste time getting involved with his...ah, stories anymore. If you wanted a good whopper, you may have noticed in the past week how he had to drop his insurance in October 2008, which means, if you followed closely and believed his many other statements on the subject, he had medical insurance for no more than 11 months of the past 8 years and now is rueing his ill fortune at having had a heart attack just three months after his insurance terminated. Have you heard the one about the gang-bangers at the desert pistol range? That one was far more imaginative. d8-) I have not heard that one. It was a beauty. Maybe it's still on Google Groups. I only become annoyed at the constant bigotries and put-downs -- * political, geographical, etc. If that's what he needs to inflate his own self-image, there's an entire literature on that subject and far be it from me to tell him what to do about it in his private life. When it becomes public and it sours the atmosphere, as it does here, I'll say something. Otherwise, you'll have to catch his whoppers on your own. There certainly are enough of them flying by to keep you busy. I personally disagree with him trying to discount my political views by bringing up where I came from. It makes it difficult to have a meaningful discourse. I was waiting for you to react to that. I had one hell of a message pre-written, in case Gunner and Tom continued to gang up on you. d8-) -- Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Gunner and Tom gang up on Ig like a couple of bullies that they are....they wouldn't do that would they? Ig...hang tough...Ed isn't the only one in your corner. ;) I consider you to be a valued member of this discussion group. Tom and Gunner...well I think you know what I think of them. TMT |
#87
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Emerson Electric
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ... On Dec 6, 3:48 am, "Buerste" wrote: "Ignoramus12571" wrote in message ... On 2009-12-06, Buerste wrote: Just keep in mind..that Iggy is in fact an ex communist from Russia..and as such...his entire mental background has been formed on the Soviet ideal. I cut him slack because of this defect in his thinking. He really cant help it..its so deeply engrained into his world view that it colors everything he sees and do. All the "imports" I have known have embraced conservatism with gusto. But, they moved away from really bad situations. I used to fit this description, until Bush attacked Iraq. This opened my eyes. i You do mean Bush AND Congress, don't you? They ALL screwed up. But, blame Bush alone if it makes you happy.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You mean Bush and the Republican Congress. TMT Yep, but they weren't ALL Republicans. |
#88
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Emerson Electric
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... snip Free government services? Which ones? And free healthcare? Ive paid for those many many times in the past 45 yrs in taxes alone. But hey...spew all you want. Im now a Democrat..and as such, deserve everything the Party gives me. And you are bitching about it? Talk to your masters in the DNC and complain. Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh!! plink Gunner And if Obammy funding pays for that new road right through my plant, I'll vote for him in 2012. Good GOD...I'm a Democrat too! |
#89
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Emerson Electric
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:58:49 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: "Ignoramus8601" wrote in message m... On 2009-12-07, Ed Huntress wrote: Perhaps you missed the part of gummer's post where he demonstrated yet again that he should have paid more attention in grade school. He said he's been paying taxes for 45 years, which would make him 11 when he started. There is two possibilities of his statement being true: First off, that wasn't me you quoted. I don't call him gummer. 1) He may be referring to sales taxes Well, there was that soda he bought to drink when he was 10 and marching with MLK. In 1963, Michigan's sales tax was raised to 6%. So maybe if was spending, oh, say $90,000/year. That would be $5,400. Then the tax would go to pay for all of the things in Michigan's budget that are paid for by sales tax. Hmmm....maybe if he spent $900,000/year. That's one hell of an allowance, or a really big paper route. 2) Maybe during childhood, he had some investments in his name and had to pay taxes on capital gains and income. Iggy, Iggy...please. d8-) 2 seems highly unlikely and 1 is questionable as to whether it qualifies as taxes. g No, I didn't miss it. I just don't waste time getting involved with his...ah, stories anymore. If you wanted a good whopper, you may have noticed in the past week how he had to drop his insurance in October 2008, which means, if you followed closely and believed his many other statements on the subject, he had medical insurance for no more than 11 months of the past 8 years and now is rueing his ill fortune at having had a heart attack just three months after his insurance terminated. Have you heard the one about the gang-bangers at the desert pistol range? That one was far more imaginative. d8-) I have not heard that one. It was a beauty. Maybe it's still on Google Groups. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.m...344ad937ebb286 That really was a good one, but the I-had-insurance-right-up-until-I-needed-it has to be one of his best, If only because he used it *both* times that he needed major work done. It's as if illness knew the exact perfect time to strike him. OK, not the *perfect* time, considering that at least it wasn't -60. I only become annoyed at the constant bigotries and put-downs -- political, geographical, etc. If that's what he needs to inflate his own self-image, there's an entire literature on that subject and far be it from me to tell him what to do about it in his private life. When it becomes public and it sours the atmosphere, as it does here, I'll say something. Otherwise, you'll have to catch his whoppers on your own. There certainly are enough of them flying by to keep you busy. I personally disagree with him trying to discount my political views by bringing up where I came from. It makes it difficult to have a meaningful discourse. I was waiting for you to react to that. I had one hell of a message pre-written, in case Gunner and Tom continued to gang up on you. d8-) You should have posted it. In gummer's mind, silence constitutes approval and neutral responses equal adulation. Wayne |
#90
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Emerson Electric
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:20:17 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 00:47:04 -0500, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... Free government services? Which ones? And free healthcare? Ive paid for those many many times in the past 45 yrs in taxes alone. Gunner Jeez, Gunner, the way you're plonking everyone who makes you look foolish, you'll soon be able to fit your whole little group into a couple of body bags. But no, you've never paid a fraction of your own healthcare. You've never even paid the interest on it. What's actually happened is that you've just become what you once despised, and now you're flopping like a flounder trying to justify yourself. Perhaps you missed the part of gummer's post where he demonstrated yet again that he should have paid more attention in grade school. He said he's been paying taxes for 45 years, which would make him 11 when he started. g No, I didn't miss it. I just don't waste time getting involved with his...ah, stories anymore. If you wanted a good whopper, you may have noticed in the past week how he had to drop his insurance in October 2008, which means, if you followed closely and believed his many other statements on the subject, he had medical insurance for no more than 11 months of the past 8 years and now is rueing his ill fortune at having had a heart attack just three months after his insurance terminated. I called him on it when he first he made the claim some months ago. In fact, IIRC I challenged him to post the premium receipts. A deadbeat smoker with stents? If he'd given the lie a minute's thought he'd have realized that no sensible reader would believe he could afford those premiums. Hard to imagine that any company would take him at any price. Besides, at this point I'd be surprised if he even has vehicle insurance. Have you heard the one about the gang-bangers at the desert pistol range? That one was far more imaginative. d8-) That one was soooo typical of his BS. Plus, he says he can shoot 1000 yards on his acreage snorf, so why would he need a range in the first place? Oh wait. he "hates" to walk out to set his own targets? He likes to sit in front of the range office holding a box of puppies? I only become annoyed at the constant bigotries and put-downs -- political, geographical, etc. If that's what he needs to inflate his own self-image, there's an entire literature on that subject and far be it from me to tell him what to do about it in his private life. When it becomes public and it sours the atmosphere, as it does here, I'll say something. He's easily the worst spokesman that any cause could imagine. He mentioned his "alternative income streams" once. Perhaps he's positioning himself so that sane righties will cut him a monthly check in exchange for his agreeing to never post another word. Otherwise, you'll have to catch his whoppers on your own. There certainly are enough of them flying by to keep you busy. There are way too many to read, much less keep track of. I'm getting a bit miffed that he has yet to write up the tale of moving to Idaho, Jed Clampett style. I feel a ballad coming on. What tune should I use? :-) Wayne |
#92
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Emerson Electric
"Ignoramus10187" wrote in message ... On 2009-12-08, wrote: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:58:49 -0500, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Ignoramus8601" wrote in message news:bLednWrNEsW0FoDWnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@giganews. com... On 2009-12-07, Ed Huntress wrote: Perhaps you missed the part of gummer's post where he demonstrated yet again that he should have paid more attention in grade school. He said he's been paying taxes for 45 years, which would make him 11 when he started. There is two possibilities of his statement being true: First off, that wasn't me you quoted. I don't call him gummer. 1) He may be referring to sales taxes Well, there was that soda he bought to drink when he was 10 and marching with MLK. In 1963, Michigan's sales tax was raised to 6%. So maybe if was spending, oh, say $90,000/year. That would be $5,400. Then the tax would go to pay for all of the things in Michigan's budget that are paid for by sales tax. Hmmm....maybe if he spent $900,000/year. That's one hell of an allowance, or a really big paper route. 2) Maybe during childhood, he had some investments in his name and had to pay taxes on capital gains and income. Iggy, Iggy...please. d8-) 2 seems highly unlikely and 1 is questionable as to whether it qualifies as taxes. g No, I didn't miss it. I just don't waste time getting involved with his...ah, stories anymore. If you wanted a good whopper, you may have noticed in the past week how he had to drop his insurance in October 2008, which means, if you followed closely and believed his many other statements on the subject, he had medical insurance for no more than 11 months of the past 8 years and now is rueing his ill fortune at having had a heart attack just three months after his insurance terminated. Have you heard the one about the gang-bangers at the desert pistol range? That one was far more imaginative. d8-) I have not heard that one. It was a beauty. Maybe it's still on Google Groups. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.m...344ad937ebb286 I think there is some bad math there. ``While only 1 out of 20 Citizens might be able to shoot well, that means about 60 million Citizens would be shooting back, accurately and rapidly at those they consider Bad Guy, Gangsters and so forth.'' Assuming we have 300 million Citizens (including women, children, those that Gunner would consider to be bad Guy), etc, 1/20 of that is 15 million, not 60 million. i Doing the math on Gunner's posts, other than for handloading or weighing scrap iron, will give you a headache. It's best not to go there in the first place. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
#93
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Emerson Electric
Eregon wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:a5cc7a67-5ce7- : Ever hear of going without? And other AMERICAN companies who DO hire Americans do make comparable products. Ever hear of REALITY? The Average American Consumer couldn't care less where a product is made so long as it doesn't cost him very much. This is proven by the failure of the many "Buy American" campaigns that, with few exceptions, have failed miserably. The FACT is that large US manufacturers are laying off American workers in favor of paying a tenth of the over-bloated Union wages to workers who happen to live where the taxes are cheap. You can thank the Unions for the destruction of America. I was going to thank the workers in the third world who are doing what used to be American jobs for what amounts to slave wages. Yep, those Vietnamese that work for ten cents an hour, my hat's off to them. Thanks guys for taking the jobs from those lazy, good for nothing unionized Americans. They don't deserve to live at what used to be the American standard of living. They should work for less than a buck an hour if they want a job. Of course, when the entire work force becomes impoverished being an American won't be a source of pride like it used to be. Aw, so what. Who gives a **** what happens to American workers? Not management or ownership, that's for sure. Me neither. I already got mine. Hawke |
#94
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Emerson Electric
Gunner Asch wrote:
I have always been supportive of taxes that reflect the level of government spending. Unlike you, for example, I pay considerable amount of taxes, so this support is not because I want others to pay for something. i Of course Comrade. You came to America and want to change it to the very nation you escaped from. One strongly recommends you read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights again and again until you see the flaws in your world view. That's right. If you study those documents hard enough you just might come to understand them as well as the brilliant scholar and expert on government that Gummer is, lol. I think you have already got it far better than our resident numskull has. The way it is now is that if Gummer says something whatever the opposite of what he said is the truth. If you want to know anything about our government just understand whatever Gummer tells you, it's wrong. Hawke |
#95
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Emerson Electric
Wes wrote:
Ignoramus26134 wrote: The next question is why exactly they do so. Maybe it is because they like downtrodden people? Or maybe it is accidental? Or, perhaps, maybe it is because Republicans get donations from those welthy people? I believe the idea that wealthy people are the major source of Republican funding is an often repeated fallacy. Do you now? Is your "belief" based on anything of consequence or just ignorance? Today you can find out just about exactly where the financing of republicans candidates comes from. I suggest instead of believing something you should find out the fact then instead of believing you can actually know. By the way, the source of funding for most republicans does come from wealthy individuals and corporations. Don't believe it? You can find out or you can remain like most right wingers in ignorant bliss. In any case, as you pointed out, eventually we have to pay for everything. That is true. I want to know just how much I am paying for that everything. There is an art of hiding the knife in politics when it comes to taxes. They want the money, they just don't want you to see where it came from for fear you will revolt. Wrong again, the U.S. has a budget and guess what? Yes, it's public. You can find out where your tax dollars are going if you really want to know. Unfortunately, there are five big things that eat up over 90% of all the money the government takes in. So they are what's important. The stuff most people complain about is really small potatoes. Hawke |
#96
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Emerson Electric
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Buerste" wrote in message ... "Ignoramus26134" wrote in message ... snip Republicans like corporations and "the wealthy" to pay less income taxes. Interesting, most of Obama's cabinet were caught with "mistakes" on their returns. The next question is why exactly they do so. Maybe it is because they like downtrodden people? Or maybe it is accidental? Or, perhaps, maybe it is because Republicans get donations from those wealthy people? Interesting, do you know that Wall Street donated to Democrats by something like a 4-to-1 ratio? The falacy is that the "wealthy" are Republicans when the fact is the "wealthy" are largely Democrats. Wall Street goes with the winner, and they're smart enough to realize it would be a Democrat that would win in 2008. You can look up the final figures if you're interested, but as of Mar. 2008, it looked like this, counting the securities and investment industry; their employees; and their PACs: Clinton: $6.29 million Obama: 6.03 million McCain: 2.59 million But they don't care which party the winner is coming from; they just want to be on board with the winner. Here's how it's looked in other recent presidential elections: 2004: Bush: $8.8 million Kerry: 4.3 million 2000: Bush: $4.0 million Go 1.4 million They're neither Democrats nor Republicans. What they are is Winners -- or whores, as you prefer. Don't be blinded by your bias. And don't be blinded by yours, Tom. Horses, barn door, too late. Hawke |
#97
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Emerson Electric
Ignoramus12571 wrote:
On 2009-12-06, Buerste wrote: Just keep in mind..that Iggy is in fact an ex communist from Russia..and as such...his entire mental background has been formed on the Soviet ideal. I cut him slack because of this defect in his thinking. He really cant help it..its so deeply engrained into his world view that it colors everything he sees and do. All the "imports" I have known have embraced conservatism with gusto. But, they moved away from really bad situations. I used to fit this description, until Bush attacked Iraq. This opened my eyes. i That's the difference between you and those guys. Nothing will open their eyes. Hawke |
#98
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Emerson Electric
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Sad attempt by Gunner to smear Ig noted. It didn't work. Ig is a credit to America. Gunner is a smear of roadkill. The end result of a Conservative Cull that is currently occurring. TMT They did cull themselves out of the government, didn't they? Hawke |
#99
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Emerson Electric
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Dec 7, 9:13 am, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us wrote: On 05 Dec 2009 19:35:08 GMT, Eregon wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:a5cc7a67-5ce7- : Ever hear of going without? And other AMERICAN companies who DO hire Americans do make comparable products. Ever hear of REALITY? The Average American Consumer couldn't care less where a product is made so long as it doesn't cost him very much. This is proven by the failure of the many "Buy American" campaigns that, with few exceptions, have failed miserably. The FACT is that large US manufacturers are laying off American workers in favor of paying a tenth of the over-bloated Union wages to workers who happen to live where the taxes are cheap. ==You can thank the Unions for the destruction of America.== ============ While this may sound plausible, the workforce at AIG and Lehman Brothers were not unionized, particularly in their offshore operations where most of their troubles (and profits) seemed to originate, and they did not go into bankruptcy because of excessive labor costs. It is not logical to blame the current economic and long-term industrial/manufacturing problems of the United States on the high wages paid to one group of corporate employees [blue collar] while characterizing attempts to limit the wages of another group of corporate employees [officers, managers and directors] as some sort of communist plot or socialism. It is well to remember that when the wages of employees are cut, you also largely cut the taxes that they pay by the same amount. Even the main stay of local government, the real estate property tax, will be hit because the individuals and their families can no longer afford to live in houses, and the revenue from the state sales and income tax will also drop by about the same amount. Cutting wages not only reduces tax revenues, which the remaining producers must attempt to make up through higher rates, but also greatly increases the demand for governmental services such as food stamps, WIC and low income (subsidized) housing. The city of Detroit and the state of Michigan are prime examples of what happens with significant wage reductions. In general, cheap labor is too expensive for the majority of citizens, although it may benefit the few, and this only until their tax bills arrive, or they need a public service such as police or fire. While shells of these organizations still exist, the Teamsters, the Steel Workers, and the UAW have all been operationally broken, but the promised economic "rapture" has still not arrived. This strongly indicates the operation of the old adage "I cut it off twice and its still too short." While exceptions do exist, it appears that organizations generally get [or got] the [type of] union they asked for and deserved, and the executives that howl the loudest about union excesses are the same ones the unions are most closely imitating in extracting excessive compensation, including wages, from the company, regardless of personal performance. Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end? Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well said. It took me a few years to come to the same realization. The union red herring that others like to parade out doesn't work on me anymore. TMT What people forget is that there never would have been any unions if the owners had not mistreated their employees so badly. All you have to do is look at U.S. history and how the labor movement came to be. Even an idiot can see that if the employers had treated their workers like human beings they never would have formed unions. So the businessmen created a climate that brought about the unions. But it was the unions that gave America the highest living standard in the world. Now the unions are weak look at us. Our living standards are no longer going up and just about everyone is poorer than they were a decade ago. I credit the downward trend to Reagan, Bush, and Bush. Conservativism failed, it took away prosperity rather than improved it. Hawke |
#100
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Emerson Electric
On Dec 9, 5:23*am, Hawke wrote:
You can thank the Unions for the destruction of America. I was going to thank the workers in the third world who are doing what used to be American jobs for what amounts to slave wages. Hawke The people to blame are the damn designers of ships. They designed container ships that made it much cheaper to ship things. So now instead of being a US economy, we are in a world economy. Once the cost of shipping was lowered, the companies had no choice. If they did not use the most economic way to produce goods, someone else would have. And the " American " companies would be extinct. Dan |
#101
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Emerson Electric
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 05:24:32 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Dec 9, 5:23*am, Hawke wrote: You can thank the Unions for the destruction of America. I was going to thank the workers in the third world who are doing what used to be American jobs for what amounts to slave wages. Hawke The people to blame are the damn designers of ships. They designed container ships that made it much cheaper to ship things. Didn't that all come out of WWII shipping of materiel, and then from converted surplus oil tankers applied to the commercial market? So, it's really a kind of blowback. So now instead of being a US economy, we are in a world economy. Once the cost of shipping was lowered, the companies had no choice. If they did not use the most economic way to produce goods, someone else would have. And the " American " companies would be extinct. Dan |
#102
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Emerson Electric
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 05:24:32 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Dec 9, 5:23*am, Hawke wrote: You can thank the Unions for the destruction of America. I was going to thank the workers in the third world who are doing what used to be American jobs for what amounts to slave wages. Hawke The people to blame are the damn designers of ships. They designed container ships that made it much cheaper to ship things. So now instead of being a US economy, we are in a world economy. Once the cost of shipping was lowered, the companies had no choice. If they did not use the most economic way to produce goods, someone else would have. And the " American " companies would be extinct. Dan =============== While tongue in cheek there is a grain of truth here. Even more significant is the price controls and/or market manipulation that keeps the marine heavy fuel oil prices far below commercial or even production cost. If marine fuel costs reflected the 70+$US per bbl oil costs the cost of shipping would be much higher. Somewhere shomehow there is a huge taxpayer or user subsidy involved. Unka George (George McDuffee) The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#103
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Emerson Electric
On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 21:30:07 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote: I have always been supportive of taxes that reflect the level of government spending. Unlike you, for example, I pay considerable amount of taxes, so this support is not because I want others to pay for something. i- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Spoken like a responsible American. ============= The unfortunate truth is that no matter how much money is collected in taxes, the historical record shows that government over time *ALWAYS* spends more than it collects, regardless of the form of government and sources/amounts of tax revenue. Unka George (George McDuffee) The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#104
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Emerson Electric
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:16:05 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote: On Dec 7, 9:17*am, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us wrote: On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 08:29:28 -0500, Wes wrote: Ignoramus26134 wrote: The next question is why exactly they do so. Maybe it is because they like downtrodden people? Or maybe it is accidental? Or, perhaps, maybe it is because Republicans get donations from those welthy people? I believe the idea that wealthy people are the major source of Republican funding is an often repeated fallacy. * In any case, as you pointed out, eventually we have to pay for everything. That is true. *I want to know just how much I am paying for that everything. There is an art of hiding the knife in politics when it comes to taxes. *They want the money, they just don't want you to see where it came from for fear you will revolt. Wes ========= This goes to the heart of the free enterprise system in that a consumer can make a rational choice only if they know what the total product/service cost is. * Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end? Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Agreed. And the fact that companies hard to hide that information should be a big red flag for every consumer. TMT ============= As indicated in another thread, this in most cases is called "cost externalization." As long as any business is allowed to shift their costs to someone else, they will do so in order to maximize their profits. This is the nature of business and does not [necessarily] imply the existence of a plot or conspiracy. The shift from small scale local operations/organizations to multinational corporations has greatly amplified and exacerbated the problem of "cost externalization" and the parallel problem of "transfer pricing" where profits are shifted to the jurisdictions with the lowest or no taxes, and the costs are shifted to the areas with the highest cost and tax deductions. The basic/root problem appears to be that the economy/financial system has become so complex that no one understands it, and it is therefore impossible to regulate and control. What must be done is obvious, but doing it may well be impossible, i.e. the genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back. Unka George (George McDuffee) The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#105
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Emerson Electric
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 23:25:37 -0500, "Buerste"
wrote: Making CEO compensation a function of USA (labor and content) sales would go a long ways to adjusting attitude. TMT ************************************************* **** . If you don't like a company's methods, don't buy their products. If a company's products cost too much due to a CEO's pay, they won't be competitive. Your communist ways don't work. =========== Another "sounds good, but," statement. The problem in this case is determining the "cost" of the product. To be sure a definite sum is required when the item or service is purchased, but with the proliferation of "cost externalization," "transfer pricing," and governmental subsidies at several levels/stages, it is no longer possible in most cases to even roughly estimate the actual total "life cycle" cost of a product/service to the end user. Unka George (George McDuffee) The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#106
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Emerson Electric
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... As indicated in another thread, this in most cases is called "cost externalization." As long as any business is allowed to shift their costs to someone else, they will do so in order to maximize their profits. This is the nature of business and does not [necessarily] imply the existence of a plot or conspiracy. The shift from small scale local operations/organizations to multinational corporations has greatly amplified and exacerbated the problem of "cost externalization" and the parallel problem of "transfer pricing" where profits are shifted to the jurisdictions with the lowest or no taxes, and the costs are shifted to the areas with the highest cost and tax deductions. The basic/root problem appears to be that the economy/financial system has become so complex that no one understands it, and it is therefore impossible to regulate and control. What must be done is obvious, but doing it may well be impossible, i.e. the genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back. Unka George your post made me wonder, what's the next step? where do we go from here? corporations felt they had to move off shore to remain competitive. how long is it going to take before their competitiveness diminishes even being off shore? where are they going to go when that happens? they're just going to keep skipping around the globe to continually exploit low cost labor? at some point is there going to be a world wide labor union? i remember reading something about japan establishing shrimp farms in philippines. for a while the filipinos were making good money and were happy, then japan established shrimp farms in vietnam and the bottom fell out of shrimp prices. the filipinos had to work like dogs to make a profit. is it ever going to be possible for nations to collude to favor workers? or nations getting together to protect their local environment (example, bophal, india). b.w. |
#107
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Emerson Electric
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:27:52 -0600, "William Wixon"
wrote: snip The basic/root problem appears to be that the economy/financial system has become so complex that no one understands it, and it is therefore impossible to regulate and control. What must be done is obvious, but doing it may well be impossible, i.e. the genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back. Unka George your post made me wonder, what's the next step? where do we go from here? ========== And herein is the core problem. It does not appear to me that this is due to any capitalistic or illumanati cabals, but rather the extremely rapid growth and development of the transnational corporation (which is increasingly "off shore" at all points and answerable to no governmental authority), which in turn is largely based on the quantum jumps in communications and computers. To me at least, the current socio-economic and governmental systems have gone "rogue" and are completely unsustainable/unjustifiable, however in fairness this may well be due to the complete obsolescence of existing legal and regulatory frameworks, and the outstripping of any social/cultural experence/models by the leaps in corporate organization and communications, i.e. gross incompetence and simple impotence rather than venality. Roughly the same thing occurred in European culture with the introduction of distilled alcohol. This *SMALL* change in technology utilization resulted in chaos in most countries. For some examples see http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...ed=0CBoQsAQwAA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hogarth This was not limited to the UK and the term "schnapps teufel" was widely know in the German speaking areas. The socital-economic-cultural changes caused by just the improvements in communications and corporate organization are far more pervasive, and appear to compare with the introduction of "mass production" and/or the rise of the nation-state. FWIW -- It should be noted that a successful parasite does not kill its host least it die also. A much more successful and durable relationship is symbiosis where both parties contribute to the long life, well being and vigor of the host. Unka George (George McDuffee) .............................. Every gun that is fired, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its labourers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), U.S. general, Republican politician, president. Speech, April 1953, Washington, D.C. |
#108
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Emerson Electric
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 05:24:32 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Dec 9, 5:23 am, Hawke wrote: You can thank the Unions for the destruction of America. I was going to thank the workers in the third world who are doing what used to be American jobs for what amounts to slave wages. Hawke The people to blame are the damn designers of ships. They designed container ships that made it much cheaper to ship things. So now instead of being a US economy, we are in a world economy. Once the cost of shipping was lowered, the companies had no choice. If they did not use the most economic way to produce goods, someone else would have. And the " American " companies would be extinct. Dan =============== While tongue in cheek there is a grain of truth here. Even more significant is the price controls and/or market manipulation that keeps the marine heavy fuel oil prices far below commercial or even production cost. If marine fuel costs reflected the 70+$US per bbl oil costs the cost of shipping would be much higher. Somewhere shomehow there is a huge taxpayer or user subsidy involved. Unka George thoroughly enjoyed that response unka george. :-) b.w. |
#109
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Emerson Electric
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:27:52 -0600, "William Wixon"
wrote: "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message .. . As indicated in another thread, this in most cases is called "cost externalization." As long as any business is allowed to shift their costs to someone else, they will do so in order to maximize their profits. This is the nature of business and does not [necessarily] imply the existence of a plot or conspiracy. The shift from small scale local operations/organizations to multinational corporations has greatly amplified and exacerbated the problem of "cost externalization" and the parallel problem of "transfer pricing" where profits are shifted to the jurisdictions with the lowest or no taxes, and the costs are shifted to the areas with the highest cost and tax deductions. The basic/root problem appears to be that the economy/financial system has become so complex that no one understands it, and it is therefore impossible to regulate and control. What must be done is obvious, but doing it may well be impossible, i.e. the genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back. Unka George your post made me wonder, what's the next step? where do we go from here? corporations felt they had to move off shore to remain competitive. how long is it going to take before their competitiveness diminishes even being off shore? where are they going to go when that happens? they're just going to keep skipping around the globe to continually exploit low cost labor? at some point is there going to be a world wide labor union? i remember reading something about japan establishing shrimp farms in philippines. for a while the filipinos were making good money and were happy, then japan established shrimp farms in vietnam and the bottom fell out of shrimp prices. the filipinos had to work like dogs to make a profit. is it ever going to be possible for nations to collude to favor workers? or nations getting together to protect their local environment (example, bophal, india). b.w. Many years ago I played a pick-up round of golf with a guy who turned out to work for one of the big electronic chip companies. He talked about having worked in Korea, The Philippines, now in Indonesia and went on to say that likely he would be moving back to the States one day. I asked him about this work history and he told me that the company set up in a backward country where salaries were cheap and moved after some years when the local economy grew. He said that one day they would run out of these developing countries and move back to the U.S. I asked how they could do that if their business depended on cheap costs and he replied "robots". Think about it for a bit, if low salaries are the answer.... why not eliminate the cost item entirely... Regards, J.B. |
#110
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Emerson Electric
On Dec 9, 5:19*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote: While tongue in cheek there is a grain of truth here. * Even more significant is the price controls and/or market manipulation that keeps the marine heavy fuel oil prices far below commercial or even production cost. *If marine fuel costs reflected the 70+$US per bbl oil costs the cost of shipping would be much higher. Somewhere shomehow there is a huge taxpayer or user subsidy involved. Unka George I do not agree. Marine Heavy Fuel Oil is produced as part of oil refining. It and some other products as microcrystalline wax are by products and have almost no value. The refiners manage to avoid disposal costs, but there is not much demand in relation to the supply. The stuff is so thick that it has to be heated before it can be burned in marine engines. Dan (George McDuffee) The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
#111
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Emerson Electric
William Wixon wrote:
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... As indicated in another thread, this in most cases is called "cost externalization." As long as any business is allowed to shift their costs to someone else, they will do so in order to maximize their profits. This is the nature of business and does not [necessarily] imply the existence of a plot or conspiracy. The shift from small scale local operations/organizations to multinational corporations has greatly amplified and exacerbated the problem of "cost externalization" and the parallel problem of "transfer pricing" where profits are shifted to the jurisdictions with the lowest or no taxes, and the costs are shifted to the areas with the highest cost and tax deductions. The basic/root problem appears to be that the economy/financial system has become so complex that no one understands it, and it is therefore impossible to regulate and control. What must be done is obvious, but doing it may well be impossible, i.e. the genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back. Unka George your post made me wonder, what's the next step? where do we go from here? corporations felt they had to move off shore to remain competitive. how long is it going to take before their competitiveness diminishes even being off shore? where are they going to go when that happens? they're just going to keep skipping around the globe to continually exploit low cost labor? at some point is there going to be a world wide labor union? i remember reading something about japan establishing shrimp farms in philippines. for a while the filipinos were making good money and were happy, then japan established shrimp farms in vietnam and the bottom fell out of shrimp prices. the filipinos had to work like dogs to make a profit. is it ever going to be possible for nations to collude to favor workers? or nations getting together to protect their local environment (example, bophal, india). b.w. Either the people and their governments are going to control the corporations or the corporations are going to control them. The corporations have no conscience and don't care a whit about the lives of people, only profits. People and their representatives (governments) do care about their lives and their environment. There is no middle ground. One side is going to control or the other. If the corporations continue to dominate and get even stronger I feel sorry for the people of the world. For their sake the corporations have to be controlled. It's all about who has the power. The people better assert power over corporations or they are going to be very sorry they didn't. Hawke |
#112
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Emerson Electric
On Dec 11, 6:32*am, Hawke wrote:
Either the people and their governments are going to control the corporations or the corporations are going to control them. The corporations have no conscience and don't care a whit about the lives of people, only profits. People and their representatives (governments) do care about their lives and their environment. There is no middle ground. One side is going to control or the other. If the corporations continue to dominate and get even stronger I feel sorry for the people of the world. For their sake the corporations have to be controlled. It's all about who has the power. The people better assert power over corporations or they are going to be very sorry they didn't. Hawke As a true believer you see only black and white. Corporations are run by people. Most care about the lives of people, but there are bound to be those that do not. Governments are also run by people. Some care and some do not. My estimate is that there are more uncaring people in government. Don't believe me, go down to you local DMV. Dan |
#113
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Emerson Electric
On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:52:43 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:47:04 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 22:42:34 -0500, "ATP*" "Gunner Asch" wrote in message On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 14:53:50 -0500, "Buerste" "Ignoramus26134" wrote in message ... snip Republicans like corporations and "the wealthy" to pay less income taxes. Interesting, most of Obama's cabinet were caught with "mistakes" on their returns. The next question is why exactly they do so. Maybe it is because they like downtrodden people? Or maybe it is accidental? Or, perhaps, maybe it is because Republicans get donations from those wealthy people? Interesting, do you know that Wall Street donated to Democrats by something like a 4-to-1 ratio? The falacy is that the "wealthy" are Republicans when the fact is the "wealthy" are largely Democrats. Don't be blinded by your bias. True indeed. Just keep in mind..that Iggy is in fact an ex communist from Russia..and as such...his entire mental background has been formed on the Soviet ideal. I cut him slack because of this defect in his thinking. He really cant help it..its so deeply engrained into his world view that it colors everything he sees and do. So the ex-communist is making a go of it in this capitalistic system and paying taxes and you are leeching off the system, getting free government services and free healthcare. Kind of ironic. Free government services? Which ones? And free healthcare? Ive paid for those many many times in the past 45 yrs in taxes alone. But hey...spew all you want. Im now a Democrat..and as such, deserve everything the Party gives me. And you are bitching about it? Talk to your masters in the DNC and complain. Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh!! Jeez, Gunner, the way you're plonking everyone who makes you look foolish, you'll soon be able to fit your whole little group into a couple of body bags. Liberals don't recognize sarcasm either? Nope...they think their lies are real and reality is a lie. Libs are really messsed up people. Gunner Thanks, Rich "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#114
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Emerson Electric
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:16:02 -0600, Yooper
wrote: In article , says... Have you heard the one about the gang-bangers at the desert pistol range? That one was far more imaginative. d8-) I think my favorite was his snow camping at minus 60 deg. I was born up here, been here 62 years, and it's never hit -60. Never figured wind chill eh? -30 with a nice nippy 30mph breeze blowing through the pines, eh? Btw...in still air... "The lowest temperature in Michigan, -51°, was recorded on February 9, 1934 at Vanderbilt." "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
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Emerson Electric
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:09:29 -0600, Ignoramus8601
wrote: I only become annoyed at the constant bigotries and put-downs -- political, geographical, etc. If that's what he needs to inflate his own self-image, there's an entire literature on that subject and far be it from me to tell him what to do about it in his private life. When it becomes public and it sours the atmosphere, as it does here, I'll say something. Otherwise, you'll have to catch his whoppers on your own. There certainly are enough of them flying by to keep you busy. I personally disagree with him trying to discount my political views by bringing up where I came from. It makes it difficult to have a meaningful discourse. Iggy iggy iggy....I find it marvelous that you came to the US from the USSR. I welcome you with open arms! Tovarish!! What you are stingning about is my commentary that you never did completely take Capitalism into your heart...you still have a strong socialist streak you may not be aware of. So I use Comrade etc etc when it pops up as an indicator that on that subject...you are not completly "here" yet. Sorry if you didnt understand this. I had assumed you did. I know others here have. Shrug Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#116
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Emerson Electric
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:23:25 -0600, Ignoramus8601
wrote: On 2009-12-08, ATP* wrote: "Ignoramus8601" wrote in message ... I personally disagree with him trying to discount my political views by bringing up where I came from. It makes it difficult to have a meaningful discourse. Also the part where he fantasizes that all the people he disagrees with will be mass murdered in three years. That doesn't help either. Well, his time horizon keeps shifting, so I am not too worried about it. i Really? "Less than 3 yrs" is a shifting horizon? Fascinating. Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#117
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Emerson Electric
Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on or
about Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:53:37 -0800 did write/type or cause to appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:23:25 -0600, Ignoramus8601 wrote: On 2009-12-08, ATP* wrote: "Ignoramus8601" wrote in message ... I personally disagree with him trying to discount my political views by bringing up where I came from. It makes it difficult to have a meaningful discourse. Also the part where he fantasizes that all the people he disagrees with will be mass murdered in three years. That doesn't help either. Well, his time horizon keeps shifting, so I am not too worried about it. i Really? "Less than 3 yrs" is a shifting horizon? Fascinating. "The development of a true AI system can be expected in about five years. Always has been, always will be." That is a "shifting horizon". "Less than three years", "Within three years", "some time in the next two to three years" - those aren't so much shifting as broadly defined. I recall learning that distinction, so to speak, way back when, when the projecting were presented as "close order of 50 years." 'That means more than five, less that 500 years?' "Much less." The alternative, is to give a date. "By 2012" "By 2020" "By Friday." (didn't say which Friday, did I?) toodles - pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough! |
#118
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Emerson Electric
Wes wrote: Ignoramus26134 wrote: Emerson products usually are not immediately visible to a buyer of any product. I would not expect anyone to stop buying goods with Emerson products just because its CEO threw a hissy fit at some conference. IIRC, Emerson made the Rigid brand of power tools for Homedespot and other box stores. They also make a lot of motors. Emmerson made both of my 'Craftsman' table saws. -- Greed is the root of all eBay. |
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