-- Hi all: I need some parts for a 12" Kearney and Trecker rotary table.. I
need the directional lever among other things.. Thanks; M. Goleman

On Jul 17, 2:07�pm, "MEG" wrote:
-- Hi all: I need some parts for a 12" Kearney and Trecker rotary table.. I
need the directional lever among other things.. Thanks; M. Goleman

Meg

When I need levers and handles as such I always tiurn to McMaster-
Carr. mcmaster.com is the web address I think. Have a picture you can
post?

Bob AZ

I have a friend who is trying to dispose of a K&T #2H mill - weighs about
4,000 pounds - if a friend of his doesn't want it, it's available, and if no
one wants it whole, then parts are available - this is a complete mill,
probably working (it was working anyway) with all the overarm stuff, and
there is some tooling, etc - If anything from this might work with your
table, drop me a note off the list and I'll pass the word on. The mill is
in the San Fernando Valley (near Los Angeles, CA) - hate to see it turned
into scrap, but if no one wants it whole, then what's left after any parts
go is just that, scrap. Another vintage tool lost....

oh, to find me, please get my email from my web page, wbnoble.com



"Bob AZ" wrote in message
...
On Jul 17, 2:07?pm, "MEG" wrote:
-- Hi all: I need some parts for a 12" Kearney and Trecker rotary table..
I
need the directional lever among other things.. Thanks; M. Goleman

Meg

When I need levers and handles as such I always tiurn to McMaster-
Carr. mcmaster.com is the web address I think. Have a picture you can
post?

Bob AZ

Hello: Thanks for the reply.. This is s special lever which operates in
conjunction with trip dogs on the periphery of the table so it has to be the
factory lever.. I do appreciate your reply though.. M. Goleman

--
JOBS LOST = 2 MILLION AND COUNTING
UNEMPLOYMENT NEARING DOUBLE DIGITS
HOW CAN WE BLAME BUSH?
HOW'S THAT HOPE AND CHANGE WORKIN FOR YA?


"Bob AZ" wrote in message
...
On Jul 17, 2:07?pm, "MEG" wrote:
-- Hi all: I need some parts for a 12" Kearney and Trecker rotary table..
I
need the directional lever among other things.. Thanks; M. Goleman

Meg

When I need levers and handles as such I always tiurn to McMaster-
Carr. mcmaster.com is the web address I think. Have a picture you can
post?

Bob AZ

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:02:54 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:

I have a friend who is trying to dispose of a K&T #2H mill - weighs about
4,000 pounds - if a friend of his doesn't want it, it's available, and if no
one wants it whole, then parts are available - this is a complete mill,
probably working (it was working anyway) with all the overarm stuff, and
there is some tooling, etc - If anything from this might work with your
table, drop me a note off the list and I'll pass the word on. The mill is
in the San Fernando Valley (near Los Angeles, CA) - hate to see it turned
into scrap, but if no one wants it whole, then what's left after any parts
go is just that, scrap. Another vintage tool lost....

oh, to find me, please get my email from my web page, wbnoble.com

A K&T #2 in good running conditions is one of the finest milling
machines a person can put in their shop.

Gunner




"Bob AZ" wrote in message
...
On Jul 17, 2:07?pm, "MEG" wrote:
-- Hi all: I need some parts for a 12" Kearney and Trecker rotary table..
I
need the directional lever among other things.. Thanks; M. Goleman

Meg

When I need levers and handles as such I always tiurn to McMaster-
Carr. mcmaster.com is the web address I think. Have a picture you can
post?

Bob AZ


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:02:54 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:

I have a friend who is trying to dispose of a K&T #2H mill - weighs about
4,000 pounds - if a friend of his doesn't want it, it's available, and if no
one wants it whole, then parts are available - this is a complete mill,
probably working (it was working anyway) with all the overarm stuff, and
there is some tooling, etc - If anything from this might work with your
table, drop me a note off the list and I'll pass the word on. The mill is
in the San Fernando Valley (near Los Angeles, CA) - hate to see it turned
into scrap, but if no one wants it whole, then what's left after any parts
go is just that, scrap. Another vintage tool lost....

oh, to find me, please get my email from my web page, wbnoble.com

A K&T #2 in good running conditions is one of the finest milling
machines a person can put in their shop.

Gunner

Fortunately, they can be had cheap, so it's a good idea to buy two
good ones and use one for parts, as the price of certain replacements
are as much as a used machine. Other parts are just not available.

David

I have three Milwaukee mills.. I have a 2hl universal horizontal, a 2h plain
horizontal, and a 2d tool and die mill..All three of these mills are war
babies.. I also have attachments for all of them.. Everyone loves Bridgeport
mills and they sell pretty high.. Well the Milwaukee mill will fill a five
gallon bucket with shavings in a hurry..To each his own I suppose but for me
it is Milwaukee.. Mike

--
JOBS LOST = 2 MILLION AND COUNTING
UNEMPLOYMENT NEARING DOUBLE DIGITS
HOW CAN WE BLAME BUSH?
HOW'S THAT HOPE AND CHANGE WORKIN FOR YA?


"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:02:54 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:

I have a friend who is trying to dispose of a K&T #2H mill - weighs
about 4,000 pounds - if a friend of his doesn't want it, it's available,
and if no one wants it whole, then parts are available - this is a
complete mill, probably working (it was working anyway) with all the
overarm stuff, and there is some tooling, etc - If anything from this
might work with your table, drop me a note off the list and I'll pass
the word on. The mill is in the San Fernando Valley (near Los Angeles,
CA) - hate to see it turned into scrap, but if no one wants it whole,
then what's left after any parts go is just that, scrap. Another
vintage tool lost....

oh, to find me, please get my email from my web page, wbnoble.com

A K&T #2 in good running conditions is one of the finest milling
machines a person can put in their shop.

Gunner

Fortunately, they can be had cheap, so it's a good idea to buy two good
ones and use one for parts, as the price of certain replacements are as
much as a used machine. Other parts are just not available.

David

David R.Birch wrote:

Fortunately, they can be had cheap, so it's a good idea to buy two good
ones and use one for parts, as the price of certain replacements are as
much as a used machine. Other parts are just not available.

David

You know I often hear folks who have fully equipped machine shops
complain about the lack of replacement parts for machines.

What parts could not be made in house?
Why?


The only parts in a machine that I can think of which are likely out of
the abilities of most shops would be semiconductors and other electronic
components.


--
Steve W.

MEG wrote:
I have three Milwaukee mills.. I have a 2hl universal horizontal, a 2h plain
horizontal, and a 2d tool and die mill..All three of these mills are war
babies.. I also have attachments for all of them.. Everyone loves Bridgeport
mills and they sell pretty high.. Well the Milwaukee mill will fill a five
gallon bucket with shavings in a hurry..To each his own I suppose but for me
it is Milwaukee.. Mike

I trained on some at Milwaukee Area Technical College, also war
babies, and used them at various jobs. One of them needed a
replacement gear and none were available, with K&T right here in town.
We could have had one made, but for as much as the machine was worth.

David

Steve W. wrote:
David R.Birch wrote:
Fortunately, they can be had cheap, so it's a good idea to buy two good
ones and use one for parts, as the price of certain replacements are as
much as a used machine. Other parts are just not available.

David

You know I often hear folks who have fully equipped machine shops
complain about the lack of replacement parts for machines.

What parts could not be made in house?
Why?


Most shops are not set up to hob gears, for one thing. Even if they
were to make one, including tooling, setup and cutting, you could
easily have 20 hours @ $50+ an hour, and while that work is being
done, those workers aren't doing what they were hired to do.

If all they have is the worn out part to work from, they have to
reverse engineer it and guesstimate the pre-wornout sizes & tolerances
plus guess what material will work.

I've done work like this and you really have to need THAT machine up
and running to make it cost effective.

The only parts in a machine that I can think of which are likely out of
the abilities of most shops would be semiconductors and other electronic
components.

Parts are made in production lots of 50, 100, 1,000,000, whatever. The
most expensive is the first.

David

David R.Birch wrote:
Steve W. wrote:
David R.Birch wrote:
Fortunately, they can be had cheap, so it's a good idea to buy two good
ones and use one for parts, as the price of certain replacements are as
much as a used machine. Other parts are just not available.

David

You know I often hear folks who have fully equipped machine shops
complain about the lack of replacement parts for machines.

What parts could not be made in house?
Why?


Most shops are not set up to hob gears, for one thing. Even if they were
to make one, including tooling, setup and cutting, you could easily have
20 hours @ $50+ an hour, and while that work is being done, those
workers aren't doing what they were hired to do.

Not applicable in a home shop in many cases we are doing it for fun.
Personally I think this is one of the reasons why the US is losing the
global economy battle. Don't repair that machine that you have, scrap it
and buy a newer one.


If all they have is the worn out part to work from, they have to reverse
engineer it and guesstimate the pre-wornout sizes & tolerances plus
guess what material will work.

Not really, parts duplication would be easy. You already know what
material to make it out of, you have a sample in hand.
Look at the books and you would know what the original specs should be.



I've done work like this and you really have to need THAT machine up and
running to make it cost effective.

The only parts in a machine that I can think of which are likely out of
the abilities of most shops would be semiconductors and other electronic
components.

Parts are made in production lots of 50, 100, 1,000,000, whatever. The
most expensive is the first.

David

True to some extent.

--
Steve W.

Steve W. wrote:

Most shops are not set up to hob gears, for one thing. Even if they were
to make one, including tooling, setup and cutting, you could easily have
20 hours @ $50+ an hour, and while that work is being done, those
workers aren't doing what they were hired to do.

Not applicable in a home shop in many cases we are doing it for fun.

True, when I contacted the surly dude who owns the rights for
Benchmaster parts, his price quotes suggested he had no stock and made
parts one at a time. I built my own X-axis lead screw instead. My
Benchmaster came with Y and Z lead screws, but a rack and pinion setup
for X.

Personally I think this is one of the reasons why the US is losing the
global economy battle. Don't repair that machine that you have, scrap it
and buy a newer one.

The window where a machine has paid for itself and is still cost
effective to run is getting narrower. We have 2 Mazak LASERs at work
with the same 4kW cutting ability. The older one, about 5 years old,
has a CNC probably designed in the early '80's, only data input is a
RS232 serial port. The newer one runs Linux and has network inputs,
USB 2.0 ports and....a RS232 serial port. The old one we use for long
running jobs, the new one serves the customers who want one part
yesterday.


If all they have is the worn out part to work from, they have to reverse
engineer it and guesstimate the pre-wornout sizes & tolerances plus
guess what material will work.

Not really, parts duplication would be easy. You already know what
material to make it out of, you have a sample in hand.

That part in hand is made of steel. 1020 or 8620? What kind of heat
treat?

Look at the books and you would know what the original specs should be.

Where are these books with specs for parts made 60+ years ago by
companies long out of business?


I've done work like this and you really have to need THAT machine up and
running to make it cost effective.

The only parts in a machine that I can think of which are likely out of
the abilities of most shops would be semiconductors and other electronic
components.
Parts are made in production lots of 50, 100, 1,000,000, whatever. The
most expensive is the first.

David

True to some extent.

True for every job our company quotes. True for every part I've made
in my basement.

David

David R.Birch wrote:
Steve W. wrote:

Most shops are not set up to hob gears, for one thing. Even if they were
to make one, including tooling, setup and cutting, you could easily have
20 hours @ $50+ an hour, and while that work is being done, those
workers aren't doing what they were hired to do.

Not applicable in a home shop in many cases we are doing it for fun.

True, when I contacted the surly dude who owns the rights for
Benchmaster parts, his price quotes suggested he had no stock and made
parts one at a time. I built my own X-axis lead screw instead. My
Benchmaster came with Y and Z lead screws, but a rack and pinion setup
for X.

Personally I think this is one of the reasons why the US is losing the
global economy battle. Don't repair that machine that you have, scrap it
and buy a newer one.

The window where a machine has paid for itself and is still cost
effective to run is getting narrower. We have 2 Mazak LASERs at work
with the same 4kW cutting ability. The older one, about 5 years old, has
a CNC probably designed in the early '80's, only data input is a RS232
serial port. The newer one runs Linux and has network inputs, USB 2.0
ports and....a RS232 serial port. The old one we use for long running
jobs, the new one serves the customers who want one part yesterday.


If all they have is the worn out part to work from, they have to reverse
engineer it and guesstimate the pre-wornout sizes & tolerances plus
guess what material will work.

Not really, parts duplication would be easy. You already know what
material to make it out of, you have a sample in hand.

That part in hand is made of steel. 1020 or 8620? What kind of heat treat?

Easy enough to do a test on a piece of it and tell the composition. Or
use a steel currently used for a similar use.
Heat treat to current spec for a gear in similar use. No real need to
use the original factory spec if you know a better one.


Look at the books and you would know what the original specs should be.

Where are these books with specs for parts made 60+ years ago by
companies long out of business?

Depends on the item. However if it is a gear the simple solution is to
use published specifications of common gears of the time. The harder
spec would be to look at the back of the teeth and get the information
from there. In the event that the wear is bad enough to nullify that you
will likely be making a few others to match existing parts and bring the
machine into spec. in that case you simply need to use the original for
it's diameter and tooth count. Then cut a new gear for each worn position.




I've done work like this and you really have to need THAT machine up and
running to make it cost effective.

The only parts in a machine that I can think of which are likely out of
the abilities of most shops would be semiconductors and other
electronic
components.
Parts are made in production lots of 50, 100, 1,000,000, whatever. The
most expensive is the first.

David

True to some extent.

True for every job our company quotes. True for every part I've made in
my basement.

David

However your not making readily found parts in your basement are you? If
you are then why?

I look at it this way, just because I can go to the shelf and pick up a
1/4-20 X 1" cap screw, doesn't mean I shouldn't know how to make them.
I've visited countries where "automation" advances are made by
installing more people with files and grindstones! Ask them about CNC
machines and you get blank stares.

--
Steve W.

On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:48:29 -0500, "MEG" wrote:

I have three Milwaukee mills.. I have a 2hl universal horizontal, a 2h plain
horizontal, and a 2d tool and die mill..All three of these mills are war
babies.. I also have attachments for all of them.. Everyone loves Bridgeport
mills and they sell pretty high.. Well the Milwaukee mill will fill a five
gallon bucket with shavings in a hurry..To each his own I suppose but for me
it is Milwaukee.. Mike


They are also superb mills!

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Steve W. wrote:

That part in hand is made of steel. 1020 or 8620? What kind of heat treat?

Easy enough to do a test on a piece of it and tell the composition. Or
use a steel currently used for a similar use.
Heat treat to current spec for a gear in similar use. No real need to
use the original factory spec if you know a better one.

Look at the books and you would know what the original specs should be.
Where are these books with specs for parts made 60+ years ago by
companies long out of business?

Depends on the item. However if it is a gear the simple solution is to
use published specifications of common gears of the time. The harder
spec would be to look at the back of the teeth and get the information
from there. In the event that the wear is bad enough to nullify that you
will likely be making a few others to match existing parts and bring the
machine into spec. in that case you simply need to use the original for
it's diameter and tooth count. Then cut a new gear for each worn position.


True for every job our company quotes. True for every part I've made in
my basement.

David

However your not making readily found parts in your basement are you? If
you are then why?

Most of what I make no one else does.

I look at it this way, just because I can go to the shelf and pick up a
1/4-20 X 1" cap screw, doesn't mean I shouldn't know how to make them.
I've visited countries where "automation" advances are made by
installing more people with files and grindstones! Ask them about CNC
machines and you get blank stares.

To get back to the original point, no company I've worked for would be
willing to spend $1-2K to get up and running a machine only worth $2k.
It's just not an effective use of resources. You get it running and
wait for the next aged part to fail. It's called being nickel & dimed
to death.

David

I needed a gear for one of my vertical heads as some shmuck threw it away
somewhere I suppose.. I made this helical gear from a piece of shafting from
an American crane that was scrapped because of bad splines.. I had to rig a
set of gears on the end of the table to drive my dividing head to get the
proper lead as I didn't have a lead attachment at the time.. As the machine
is a universal type, I could swivel the table to the angle of the helix and
all was well... Gear still works to this day.. It was the first time I ever
attempted to cut a helical gear.. It took a few tries but I got it.. Just
goes to show you what you can do if you make up your mind to do it.. Mike

"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Steve W. wrote:

That part in hand is made of steel. 1020 or 8620? What kind of heat
treat?

Easy enough to do a test on a piece of it and tell the composition. Or
use a steel currently used for a similar use.
Heat treat to current spec for a gear in similar use. No real need to
use the original factory spec if you know a better one.

Look at the books and you would know what the original specs should be.
Where are these books with specs for parts made 60+ years ago by
companies long out of business?

Depends on the item. However if it is a gear the simple solution is to
use published specifications of common gears of the time. The harder
spec would be to look at the back of the teeth and get the information
from there. In the event that the wear is bad enough to nullify that you
will likely be making a few others to match existing parts and bring the
machine into spec. in that case you simply need to use the original for
it's diameter and tooth count. Then cut a new gear for each worn
position.


True for every job our company quotes. True for every part I've made in
my basement.

David

However your not making readily found parts in your basement are you? If
you are then why?

Most of what I make no one else does.

I look at it this way, just because I can go to the shelf and pick up a
1/4-20 X 1" cap screw, doesn't mean I shouldn't know how to make them.
I've visited countries where "automation" advances are made by
installing more people with files and grindstones! Ask them about CNC
machines and you get blank stares.

To get back to the original point, no company I've worked for would be
willing to spend $1-2K to get up and running a machine only worth $2k.
It's just not an effective use of resources. You get it running and wait
for the next aged part to fail. It's called being nickel & dimed to death.

David

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
David R.Birch wrote:

Fortunately, they can be had cheap, so it's a good idea to buy two good
ones and use one for parts, as the price of certain replacements are as
much as a used machine. Other parts are just not available.

David

You know I often hear folks who have fully equipped machine shops
complain about the lack of replacement parts for machines.

What parts could not be made in house?
Why?


The only parts in a machine that I can think of which are likely out of
the abilities of most shops would be semiconductors and other electronic
components.


--
Steve W.


Most shops lack the ability to make replacement parts. The shop is run as a
production shop where a high machinst skill level is not necessary. It
doesn't take much time to make a spur gear. If you order the same part from
the mfgr. you are usually hit with a lead time of a couple of weeks, and a
price that is sky high. A screw for a G&L 350T horizontal boring mill runs
about 7 grand with the nut and the lead time was quoted as 4 weeks. Our shop
did the screw and nut in about 3 days. Anyone know how to cut a 3 1/3 pitch
acme lead screw on a manual lathe

Cutting a spur gear is not that hard if you have a dividing head. The math
for setting up the hole plate is pretty straight forward and is in many of
the older machining books. The actual setup of the dividing head takes
about an hour, cutting the gear teeth on a 4 inch gear would take another
hour or two depending on how strong your machine is and how many cuts you do
on each tooth. it takes longer to order the right involute cutter if you
don't have the right one in stock than to cut the gear itself. I have a
repair gear to do that is metric 3.5 module 37 teeth. The gear has an inside
spline with a long hub. I cheat a little and do most of the gear stuff on
our 4 axis horizontal machining center that is faster than doing it manually
but the dividing head is on the shelf waiting to be used.

Spline cutting on a shaft is also very easy to do with the dividing head.
You will need two ( left and right) 60 degree cutters on an arbor with the
proper shims to get your spline width. Then just cut the splines and rough
out the metal between the splines with a slab mill.

On the K&T and Cincinatti manual machines the hardest part to make is the
clutch plates. I never had to make them but I bet you could buy the sheet
material ( steel coated with brass?) and have them waterjetted. The older
US made machines are a dream to work on compared with some of the imported
stuff. The whole knee of the K &T pulls out in one piece after taking a
couple of bolts out.

Here are pictures of a K&T 205-12 that I had apart. The one engage lever
set screw had shifted due to a loose set screw.

htttp:userweb.intergrafix.net/amdinc/0714081256.jpg

htttp:userweb.intergrafix.net/amdinc/0714081256a.jpg


All these machines were designed and built before there was CAD, everything
was designed on a drafting board with pencil and paper. I have five
machines like this in the shop, one we have set up to do keyways on shafts.


John

John wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
David R.Birch wrote:

Fortunately, they can be had cheap, so it's a good idea to buy two good
ones and use one for parts, as the price of certain replacements are as
much as a used machine. Other parts are just not available.

David

You know I often hear folks who have fully equipped machine shops
complain about the lack of replacement parts for machines.

What parts could not be made in house?
Why?


The only parts in a machine that I can think of which are likely out of
the abilities of most shops would be semiconductors and other electronic
components.


--
Steve W.


Most shops lack the ability to make replacement parts. The shop is run
as a production shop where a high machinst skill level is not
necessary.

That is one of the problems IMO. One of my friends works in a similar
shop. His entire job consists of swapping out raw stock/finished parts
from a CNC center. If a machine fails they call a repair tech in.

It doesn't take much time to make a spur gear. If you
order the same part from the mfgr. you are usually hit with a lead time
of a couple of weeks, and a price that is sky high. A screw for a G&L
350T horizontal boring mill runs about 7 grand with the nut and the lead
time was quoted as 4 weeks. Our shop did the screw and nut in about 3
days. Anyone know how to cut a 3 1/3 pitch acme lead screw on a manual
lathe

Cutting a spur gear is not that hard if you have a dividing head. The
math for setting up the hole plate is pretty straight forward and is in
many of the older machining books. The actual setup of the dividing
head takes about an hour, cutting the gear teeth on a 4 inch gear would
take another hour or two depending on how strong your machine is and how
many cuts you do on each tooth. it takes longer to order the right
involute cutter if you don't have the right one in stock than to cut the
gear itself. I have a repair gear to do that is metric 3.5 module 37
teeth. The gear has an inside spline with a long hub. I cheat a little
and do most of the gear stuff on our 4 axis horizontal machining center
that is faster than doing it manually but the dividing head is on the
shelf waiting to be used.

I just grind and harden a profile tool and set up the OLD shaper.
Splines, gear teeth, sprocket teeth and many other items are easily cut.
Slower while cutting BUT I don't have to order special tooling or wait
for delivery either.


Spline cutting on a shaft is also very easy to do with the dividing
head. You will need two ( left and right) 60 degree cutters on an arbor
with the proper shims to get your spline width. Then just cut the
splines and rough out the metal between the splines with a slab mill.

On the K&T and Cincinatti manual machines the hardest part to make is
the clutch plates. I never had to make them but I bet you could buy the
sheet material ( steel coated with brass?) and have them waterjetted.
The older US made machines are a dream to work on compared with some of
the imported stuff. The whole knee of the K &T pulls out in one piece
after taking a couple of bolts out.

Here are pictures of a K&T 205-12 that I had apart. The one engage
lever set screw had shifted due to a loose set screw.

htttp:userweb.intergrafix.net/amdinc/0714081256.jpg

htttp:userweb.intergrafix.net/amdinc/0714081256a.jpg


All these machines were designed and built before there was CAD,
everything was designed on a drafting board with pencil and paper. I
have five machines like this in the shop, one we have set up to do
keyways on shafts.


John



--
Steve W.