Years ago, in another life, I worked on deep sea seismic survey
vessels. In that capacity I ran up and down both coastlines of north,
central, and south america, from the Faukland Islands in the south
Atlantic to the northern stretches of the Bering Sea offshore Alaska.

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

I remarked to "Tiny" about how tranquil and subdued the bar was. I
mentioned that "in Texas it would be loud and boisterous".

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

That conversation occurred before the dawn of the desktop PC computer
age, never mind the dawn of the internet.

I monitor and post to this group because I have a passion for metal
working. And there are people here, whose knowledge, and generosity
in sharing that knowledge, I admire and appreciate, immensely.

I politely suggest that many of the others here should be ashamed of
yourselves. The level of acrimony and nastiness, is truly toxic. I
am as indifferent to your political views as I am to whether you drive
a Ford, Chevy, or a Toyota.

But I will say this: "Conservatism" is the cloth from which America
is cut. And I would prefer the company of the most egregiously
ignorant American hillbilly, than that of a Moslem extremist. By
comparison, the most "conservative" and ignorant hillbilly is an
enlightened, tolerant, illuminati.

I recently read an article about a Russian cognoscenti who has
predicted the disintegration of the USA by the year 2010. As I suffer
through the daily diatribe of hateful screed posted to this and to the
welding group in the never ending tit-for-tat insults between
"liberals" and "conservatives" this prediction seems less and less far
fetched.

Meanwhile, the jihadists are plotting to lop off our heads on their
way to world domination by the sword.

Makes me wish there were more "Tinies" in the world.

Respectfully,
Vernon

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:48:21 -0800 (PST), Vernon
wrote:

Makes me wish there were more "Tinies" in the world.

They do quietly exist.

"Vernon" wrote:
As I suffer
through the daily diatribe of hateful screed posted to this and to the
welding group in the never ending tit-for-tat insults between
"liberals" and "conservatives" this prediction seems less and less far
fetched.

0.) Stop using GoogleGroups; get a newsreader (OE is fine) and one of the
many free usenet servers.
1.) Find a political thread in here.
2.) Do "Block Sender" on everyone in that thread.
3.) Repeat about a hundred times.
4.) Now it's a metalworking group again.

The recent spate of bickering has added a couple dozen more to my list. I
do lose some metalworking content, but the sizeable increase in S/N ratio is
significant.

Good luck.

Jon

Hear Hear! raised pint

Vernon wrote:
Years ago, in another life, I worked on deep sea seismic survey
vessels. In that capacity I ran up and down both coastlines of north,
central, and south america, from the Faukland Islands in the south
Atlantic to the northern stretches of the Bering Sea offshore Alaska.

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

I remarked to "Tiny" about how tranquil and subdued the bar was. I
mentioned that "in Texas it would be loud and boisterous".

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

That conversation occurred before the dawn of the desktop PC computer
age, never mind the dawn of the internet.

I monitor and post to this group because I have a passion for metal
working. And there are people here, whose knowledge, and generosity
in sharing that knowledge, I admire and appreciate, immensely.

I politely suggest that many of the others here should be ashamed of
yourselves. The level of acrimony and nastiness, is truly toxic. I
am as indifferent to your political views as I am to whether you drive
a Ford, Chevy, or a Toyota.

But I will say this: "Conservatism" is the cloth from which America
is cut. And I would prefer the company of the most egregiously
ignorant American hillbilly, than that of a Moslem extremist. By
comparison, the most "conservative" and ignorant hillbilly is an
enlightened, tolerant, illuminati.

I recently read an article about a Russian cognoscenti who has
predicted the disintegration of the USA by the year 2010. As I suffer
through the daily diatribe of hateful screed posted to this and to the
welding group in the never ending tit-for-tat insults between
"liberals" and "conservatives" this prediction seems less and less far
fetched.

Meanwhile, the jihadists are plotting to lop off our heads on their
way to world domination by the sword.

Makes me wish there were more "Tinies" in the world.

Respectfully,
Vernon

"Vernon" wrote in message
...
snip---

I monitor and post to this group because I have a passion for metal
working. And there are people here, whose knowledge, and generosity
in sharing that knowledge, I admire and appreciate, immensely.

I politely suggest that many of the others here should be ashamed of
yourselves. The level of acrimony and nastiness, is truly toxic. I
am as indifferent to your political views as I am to whether you drive
a Ford, Chevy, or a Toyota.

I'd like to extend an invitation for you to visit the Chaski board. I
moderate there and do NOT allow any bickering of a personal nature, no
religious discussions and no politics. Such posts are deleted
immediately, and if they persist, the individual is banned from the site.
You will find that machining and mechanical discussions are the primary
focus, along with model engines of all types, and plenty of steam.

Here's a link if you'd like to explore the forum.
http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/

You won't be able to see many of the pictures, for you must be registered to
see them, depending on how they are posted, plus you can't post unless you
are registered. That is by approval, but Marty is very good about keeping
current with registrations.

Please pay us a visit. We welcome intelligent individuals with a good
objective.

Harold

On Jan 5, 6:50*pm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Vernon" wrote in message

...
snip---



I monitor and post to this group because I have a passion for metal
working. *And there are people here, whose knowledge, and generosity
in sharing that knowledge, I admire and appreciate, immensely.

I politely suggest that many of the others here should be ashamed of
yourselves. *The level of acrimony and nastiness, is truly toxic. *I
am as indifferent to your political views as I am to whether you drive
a Ford, Chevy, or a Toyota.

I'd like to extend an invitation for you to visit the Chaski board. *I
moderate there and do NOT allow any bickering of a personal nature, no
religious discussions and no politics. * *Such posts are deleted
immediately, and if they persist, the individual is banned from the site.
You will find that machining and mechanical discussions are the primary
focus, along with model engines of all types, and plenty of steam.

Here's a link if you'd like to explore the forum.http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/

You won't be able to see many of the pictures, for you must be registered to
see them, depending on how they are posted, plus you can't post unless you
are registered. *That is by approval, but Marty is very good about keeping
current with registrations.

Please pay us a visit. * We welcome intelligent individuals with a good
objective.

Harold

Thank you Harold. I'll be there. V

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

"Ignoramus10831" wrote in message
...
On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

No kidding. And do you really believe that a bar full of people packing guns
is actually more peaceful than one that isn't? It's most likely that the
patrons in that bar hadn't been there long enough to get liquored up to the
point where they started acting like drunks. I don't care where it is they
are always the same. Once the guys get drunk that's when the fun starts.
Besides, it used to be that before laws were passed against it everyone went
into bars with guns. They called that the wild west and we all know what it
was like when guys got to drinking and were packing guns. I guess the people
in Alaska are just much more civilized than they are in other places. Anyone
believe that?

Hawke

On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:03:41 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:



No kidding. And do you really believe that a bar full of people packing guns
is actually more peaceful than one that isn't? It's most likely that the
patrons in that bar hadn't been there long enough to get liquored up to the
point where they started acting like drunks. I don't care where it is they
are always the same. Once the guys get drunk that's when the fun starts.
Besides, it used to be that before laws were passed against it everyone went
into bars with guns. They called that the wild west and we all know what it
was like when guys got to drinking and were packing guns. I guess the people
in Alaska are just much more civilized than they are in other places. Anyone
believe that?

Hawke

You tacitly assume or suggest that armed bar patrons get drunk and
then aggressively violent. Perhaps so in your not-up-north or urban
locale. It ain't necessarily so in a locale where being armed is a
norm and a folkway. Think about bears north, snakes south.

You assert that you don't care where it is, it's always the same. Such
a sweeping generality with no defense is a null assertion.

Suggestion: avoid bars in your locale where **** happens. You are
certainly free to avoid bars where you feel at risk whether armed or
not, and it would be prudent for you to do so.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:03:41 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


No kidding. And do you really believe that a bar full of people packing guns
is actually more peaceful than one that isn't? It's most likely that the
patrons in that bar hadn't been there long enough to get liquored up to the
point where they started acting like drunks. I don't care where it is they
are always the same. Once the guys get drunk that's when the fun starts.
Besides, it used to be that before laws were passed against it everyone went
into bars with guns. They called that the wild west and we all know what it
was like when guys got to drinking and were packing guns. I guess the people
in Alaska are just much more civilized than they are in other places. Anyone
believe that?

Hawke

You tacitly assume or suggest that armed bar patrons get drunk and
then aggressively violent. Perhaps so in your not-up-north or urban
locale. It ain't necessarily so in a locale where being armed is a
norm and a folkway. Think about bears north, snakes south.

You assert that you don't care where it is, it's always the same. Such
a sweeping generality with no defense is a null assertion.

Suggestion: avoid bars in your locale where **** happens. You are
certainly free to avoid bars where you feel at risk whether armed or
not, and it would be prudent for you to do so.



This was very much the way it was during my summer vacation in South Vietnam.
Guys were armed to the teeth.

But so very careful about reaching for a weapon when disagreements turned
violent.

I believe it is quite true that an armed society is a polite society.

And that polite conversation ended when gentlemen quit carrying sidearms.

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:03:41 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


No kidding. And do you really believe that a bar full of people packing
guns
is actually more peaceful than one that isn't? It's most likely that the
patrons in that bar hadn't been there long enough to get liquored up to
the
point where they started acting like drunks. I don't care where it is
they
are always the same. Once the guys get drunk that's when the fun starts.
Besides, it used to be that before laws were passed against it everyone
went
into bars with guns. They called that the wild west and we all know what
it
was like when guys got to drinking and were packing guns. I guess the
people
in Alaska are just much more civilized than they are in other places.
Anyone
believe that?

Hawke

You tacitly assume or suggest that armed bar patrons get drunk and
then aggressively violent. Perhaps so in your not-up-north or urban
locale. It ain't necessarily so in a locale where being armed is a
norm and a folkway. Think about bears north, snakes south. You assert
that you don't care where it is, it's always the same. Such
a sweeping generality with no defense is a null assertion. Suggestion:
avoid bars in your locale where **** happens. You are
certainly free to avoid bars where you feel at risk whether armed or
not, and it would be prudent for you to do so.


This was very much the way it was during my summer vacation in South
Vietnam.
Guys were armed to the teeth.

But so very careful about reaching for a weapon when disagreements turned
violent.

I believe it is quite true that an armed society is a polite society.

And that polite conversation ended when gentlemen quit carrying sidearms.

I didn't realize you were that old. That was about the time they quit
wearing top hats, too, wasn't it? d8-)

I've known a lot of people who carry sidearms, but none of them would
qualify as a gentleman.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

Right. It is illegal in MN to carry when intoxicated.

Don Foreman wrote:

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

Right. It is illegal in MN to carry when intoxicated.

Same in Michigan, I do support a few restrictions on the Second Amendment, carrying in
bars is one of them. However, if you want to go to the bar, your weapon cased and
unloaded stored in the trunk of your car is an acceptable mode of transport unless they
changed the rules since I last read them.

WEs
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On 2009-01-06, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

Right. It is illegal in MN to carry when intoxicated.

Same in Michigan, I do support a few restrictions on the Second
Amendment, carrying in bars is one of them. However, if you want to
go to the bar, your weapon cased and unloaded stored in the trunk of
your car is an acceptable mode of transport unless they changed the
rules since I last read them.

A side note, but I always wondered how this rule applies to pickup
trucks, that do not have a lockable trunk.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:34:20 -0600, Ignoramus6829
wrote:

On 2009-01-06, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

Right. It is illegal in MN to carry when intoxicated.

Same in Michigan, I do support a few restrictions on the Second
Amendment, carrying in bars is one of them. However, if you want to
go to the bar, your weapon cased and unloaded stored in the trunk of
your car is an acceptable mode of transport unless they changed the
rules since I last read them.

A side note, but I always wondered how this rule applies to pickup
trucks, that do not have a lockable trunk.

That is not clear in MN. General opinion and guidance from cops I've
asked is that it's not a problem if the weapons are in cases, but a
cop with an attitude could definitely spoil your day. It's a good
reason for having a CCW permit if one goes to the range and back in a
pickup. The permit makes things much simpler.

I think anyone who owns a handgun should take CCW training in their
jurisdiction whether or not they might ever intend to carry. Civilian
rules of engagement are quite different from military and they aren't
always obvious or even seemingly sensible -- but they are the law.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

Right. It is illegal in MN to carry when intoxicated.

In Texas, it's a felony to have a gun where liquor is served. I imagine
many states have laws guns and alcohol. One can lose their CCF for
being under the influence and in possession of a firearm even if not driving
in many states. Unless you are on your own property, it is illegal in many
states to discharge a weapon in self defense if under the influence.

Steve

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:02:36 -0700, "SteveB" wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

Right. It is illegal in MN to carry when intoxicated.

In Texas, it's a felony to have a gun where liquor is served. I imagine
many states have laws guns and alcohol. One can lose their CCF for
being under the influence and in possession of a firearm even if not driving
in many states. Unless you are on your own property, it is illegal in many
states to discharge a weapon in self defense if under the influence.

Steve

The magic word is intoxicated.

In California..where you have to live in the right place...and be
squeeky clean to get a CCW...no :shall issue: here....I can loose my CCW
for being intoxicated while carrying as well. In fact, its clearly
printed in red on the CCW itself..mandateing it be removed if the holder
is found to be carrying and drunk.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

"SteveB" wrote:

In Texas, it's a felony to have a gun where liquor is served. I imagine
many states have laws guns and alcohol. One can lose their CCF for
being under the influence and in possession of a firearm even if not driving
in many states. Unless you are on your own property, it is illegal in many
states to discharge a weapon in self defense if under the influence.


You have never been on the front porch of the store in Lajitas. It was a few days before
the Oklahoma bombing when I was doing a 500 miles bicycle camping loop with my brother and
most were open carry. Sipping that cold one you just bought seemed to be the local norm.

Everyone seemed friendly.

Wes

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

What makes you think they are all drunks?

I go to bars at least 3 nights a week. Im always carrying.

And I dont drink booze of any sort.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:00:02 -0800, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

What makes you think they are all drunks?

I go to bars at least 3 nights a week. Im always carrying.

And I dont drink booze of any sort.

Also, what makes them think that drunks want, need, or can obtain
carry licenses? Talking to the sheriff or deputies while applying for
a gun license with liquor on your breath is one of the surest ways of
getting turned down for the license. Background checks turn up the
rowdies and they're also declined licencing. It's pretty much self-
filtering.

Anybody: How many drunks do you know who carry?

How many rowdy drunks?

--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
--Jesse Lee Bennett

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:08:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:00:02 -0800, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

What makes you think they are all drunks?

I go to bars at least 3 nights a week. Im always carrying.

And I dont drink booze of any sort.

Also, what makes them think that drunks want, need, or can obtain
carry licenses? Talking to the sheriff or deputies while applying for
a gun license with liquor on your breath is one of the surest ways of
getting turned down for the license. Background checks turn up the
rowdies and they're also declined licencing. It's pretty much self-
filtering.

Anybody: How many drunks do you know who carry?

How many rowdy drunks?

this does however beg the question...how many of our readers have ever
been in a "cop bar"?

Nearly all are carrying, most have been drinking. Some heavily.

why do we not hear about massive gun fights in those bars?

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Gunner Asch wrote:

this does however beg the question...how many of our readers have ever
been in a "cop bar"?

Nearly all are carrying, most have been drinking. Some heavily.

why do we not hear about massive gun fights in those bars?

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Try any of the Gay Cowboy bars in Fort Worth.

They sometime get a little rowdy...

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:43:48 -0800
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
I go to bars at least 3 nights a week. Im always carrying.

And I dont drink booze of any sort.

Also, what makes them think that drunks want, need, or can obtain
carry licenses? Talking to the sheriff or deputies while applying for
a gun license with liquor on your breath is one of the surest ways of
getting turned down for the license. Background checks turn up the
rowdies and they're also declined licencing. It's pretty much self-
filtering.

Anybody: How many drunks do you know who carry?

How many rowdy drunks?

this does however beg the question...how many of our readers have ever
been in a "cop bar"?

Nearly all are carrying, most have been drinking. Some heavily.

why do we not hear about massive gun fights in those bars?

They are aware of the massive amounts of paperwork involved after
a gunfight?

It was interesting to note that Ignoramus apparently feels that
unless he gets falling down, sloppily loud and obnoxiously drunk, he
can't have a "good time". IMHO, such people should not have access to
guns, drunk or sober. Not to mention car keys, power tools, sharp or
blunt objects, or a loaded pen. But that's my opinion, and not
something you can enact into a set rule.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:43:48 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

this does however beg the question...how many of our readers have ever
been in a "cop bar"?

Nearly all are carrying, most have been drinking. Some heavily.

why do we not hear about massive gun fights in those bars?

Gunner

Now you do realize that you raise two totally different questions
that should be asked seperately...

One: How many shootings happen with juiced Cops in Cop Bars? Where
they are all Choirboys, members of the Brotherhood in Blue, and
holding their nightly "Choir Practice".

Two: How many of these shootings even get as far as an official
report filed? Let alone word getting into the press so we can "hear
about them"?

It's probably still a rather rare occurance, but since everyone in
that bar knows that having a big investigation could scuttle the rest
of their careers (and the bar lose their operating licenses) whenever
possible (nobody got badly hurt, no outside witnesses) I can guarantee
it gets quietly covered up and forgotten.

If anyone actually got hurt or ({$Deity} forbid) killed, they'd run
them to the hospital in a private car, or to an off-site location
where they can have an "accidental discharge" or a "righteous
shooting" happen. The alcohol would never enter into the discussion,
and that report would get buried really deep - there are always
friends in Internal Affairs. Hell, he might have been there.

A relative who shall remain nameless who was a LEO used to get juiced
at family events when he was carrying, and I've heard from reliable
sources that it wasn't all that unusual for him to drive home from
after-work Choir Practice rather toasted. And when other people tried
to take over and drive home all offers were stubbornly refused.

He tried to justify it to me once by claiming he could get
"Professional Courtesy" if he got pulled over. He /really/ didn't
like it when I had the temerity to say if he killed a few people in a
collision any "Professional Courtesy" is going right out the window.

-- Bruce --

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:00:02 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

What makes you think they are all drunks?

I go to bars at least 3 nights a week. Im always carrying.

And I dont drink booze of any sort.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""


Having just gone through the CCW course here in Californicate, I can
tell you that carrying in a "place that has ther primary purpose of
selling alcohol" is illegal, whether you drink or not. Just be
careful, my friend.

Jim

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:33:40 GMT, Jim Chandler wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:00:02 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

What makes you think they are all drunks?

I go to bars at least 3 nights a week. Im always carrying.

And I dont drink booze of any sort.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""


Having just gone through the CCW course here in Californicate, I can
tell you that carrying in a "place that has ther primary purpose of
selling alcohol" is illegal, whether you drink or not. Just be
careful, my friend.

Jim


Please provide the California state law on that statement if you would.

Its indeed illegal to simply carry in a bar in some states, but was not
aware the law had changed in California, making it so.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/California_License_to_Carry_Concealed_Weapon_(CCW) #Limitations_on_carry

Where is concealed carry allowed by the license?

Unless limited by a 12050(b) restriction on the license, a license is
valid in the entire state.

Specific exemptions allowing concealed carry for licensees under 12050
are

* Penal Code 171b public meetings
* Penal Code 171c State Capitol and related areas
* Penal Code 171d Governor's mansion and Legislator's residences
* Penal Code 626.9(l) School zones (K-12 and college/university)

Limitations on carry

Federal and local laws may limit concealed carry even for licensed
individuals. Airport sterile areas and United States military
installations are two examples.

Courthouses and jail facilities commonly prohibit firearms, even for
licensed individuals.

San Francisco bans possession of firearms "upon public premises selling
or serving alcoholic beverages" (San Francisco Municipal Code SEC.
3603).


Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Jan 7, 2:56*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:33:40 GMT, Jim Chandler wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:00:02 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:43:36 -0600, Ignoramus10831
wrote:

On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. *The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. *I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". *"Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: *"It's different in Alaska. *I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. *So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

What makes you think they are all drunks?

I go to bars at least 3 nights a week. *Im always carrying.

And I dont drink booze of any sort.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Having just gone through the CCW course here in Californicate, I can
tell you that carrying in a "place that has ther primary purpose of
selling alcohol" is illegal, whether you drink or not. *Just be
careful, my friend.

Jim

Please provide the California state law on that statement if you would.

Its indeed illegal to simply carry in a bar in some states, but was not
aware the law had changed in California, making it so.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/California_License_to_Car...

* Where is concealed carry allowed by the license?

Unless limited by a 12050(b) restriction on the license, a license is
valid in the entire state.

Specific exemptions allowing concealed carry for licensees under 12050
are

* * * Penal Code 171b public meetings
* * * Penal Code 171c State Capitol and related areas
* * * Penal Code 171d Governor's mansion and Legislator's residences
* * * Penal Code 626.9(l) School zones (K-12 and college/university)

Limitations on carry

Federal and local laws may limit concealed carry even for licensed
individuals. Airport sterile areas and United States military
installations are two examples.

Courthouses and jail facilities commonly prohibit firearms, even for
licensed individuals.

San Francisco bans possession of firearms "upon public premises selling
or serving alcoholic beverages" (San Francisco Municipal Code SEC.
3603).

Gunner

"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." *Grey Ghost

Gunner. I have no knowledge of California gun CCW laws. But in Texas
licensed carry in a bar is indeed illegal. Therefore, I would be
flabbergasted if it's not the case in California as I've never known
of a single case of California being more LAX than any other state.
Metinks you would be well advised to look into it before carrying in a
bar. V

"Ignoramus10831" wrote in message
...
On 2009-01-05, Vernon wrote:

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

Sitting in a subdued bar, full of drunks with guns, does not sound
like my idea of fun.

Drunks and guns should not go together.

i

I'd rather live in that civilization where honest citizens are not made into
criminals than the one we presently have where criminals carry guns at will
wherever they want. I don't like sitting in a subdued bar full of drunks
with guns either. So, I don't go in.

Steve, permitted in 39 states

On Jan 4, 7:48*pm, Vernon wrote:
Years ago, in another life, I worked on deep sea seismic survey
vessels. *In that capacity I ran up and down both coastlines of north,
central, and south america, from the Faukland Islands in the south
Atlantic to the northern stretches of the Bering Sea offshore Alaska.

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. *The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. *I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". *"Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

I remarked to "Tiny" about how tranquil and subdued the bar was. *I
mentioned that "in Texas it would be loud and boisterous".

Tiny answered: *"It's different in Alaska. *I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. *So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

That conversation occurred before the dawn of the desktop PC computer
age, never mind the dawn of the internet.

I monitor and post to this group because I have a passion for metal
working. *And there are people here, whose knowledge, and generosity
in sharing that knowledge, I admire and appreciate, immensely.

I politely suggest that many of the others here should be ashamed of
yourselves. *The level of acrimony and nastiness, is truly toxic. *I
am as indifferent to your political views as I am to whether you drive
a Ford, Chevy, or a Toyota.

But I will say this: *"Conservatism" is the cloth from which America
is cut. *And I would prefer the company of the most egregiously
ignorant American hillbilly, than that of a Moslem extremist. *By
comparison, the most "conservative" and ignorant hillbilly is an
enlightened, tolerant, illuminati.

I recently read an article about a Russian cognoscenti who has
predicted the disintegration of the USA by the year 2010. *As I suffer
through the daily diatribe of hateful screed posted to this and to the
welding group in the never ending tit-for-tat insults between
"liberals" and "conservatives" this prediction seems less and less far
fetched.

Meanwhile, the jihadists are plotting to lop off our heads on their
way to world domination by the sword.

Makes me wish there were more "Tinies" in the world.

Respectfully,
Vernon

I had hoped that this post would lead to some introspection leading to
a discussion on our demonstrating a higher level of civility to each
other on the internet. Silly me. What a pity it has now been
hijacked into a discussion of concealed carry in bars. At the time of
the event there was no provision for concealed carry anywhere in the
USA. I was not carrying. I was a crewman on a ship. Nor was I
drunk.

As to the other patrons of the bar let's assume they were all drunk
and were all carrying. Even in that (hypothetical) condition they
were capable of a much higher level of civility and tolerance than I
find in this forum. As a matter of fact, if everyone would behave as
if he were the only unarmed person in a bar full of armed drunks, the
world would be a better place. To quote a line from "Pogo", a cartoon
strip from 40 years ago: "I has seen the enemy. And he looks a lot
like me". V

"Vernon" wrote in message
...
On Jan 4, 7:48 pm, Vernon wrote:
Years ago, in another life, I worked on deep sea seismic survey
vessels. In that capacity I ran up and down both coastlines of north,
central, and south america, from the Faukland Islands in the south
Atlantic to the northern stretches of the Bering Sea offshore Alaska.

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". "Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

I remarked to "Tiny" about how tranquil and subdued the bar was. I
mentioned that "in Texas it would be loud and boisterous".

Tiny answered: "It's different in Alaska. I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

That conversation occurred before the dawn of the desktop PC computer
age, never mind the dawn of the internet.

I monitor and post to this group because I have a passion for metal
working. And there are people here, whose knowledge, and generosity
in sharing that knowledge, I admire and appreciate, immensely.

I politely suggest that many of the others here should be ashamed of
yourselves. The level of acrimony and nastiness, is truly toxic. I
am as indifferent to your political views as I am to whether you drive
a Ford, Chevy, or a Toyota.

But I will say this: "Conservatism" is the cloth from which America
is cut. And I would prefer the company of the most egregiously
ignorant American hillbilly, than that of a Moslem extremist. By
comparison, the most "conservative" and ignorant hillbilly is an
enlightened, tolerant, illuminati.

I recently read an article about a Russian cognoscenti who has
predicted the disintegration of the USA by the year 2010. As I suffer
through the daily diatribe of hateful screed posted to this and to the
welding group in the never ending tit-for-tat insults between
"liberals" and "conservatives" this prediction seems less and less far
fetched.

Is that the same Rooskie who was going to "bury us" a few decades ago?

Not to worry, Vernon. We'll dance on their graves.


Meanwhile, the jihadists are plotting to lop off our heads on their
way to world domination by the sword.

Makes me wish there were more "Tinies" in the world.

Respectfully,
Vernon

I had hoped that this post would lead to some introspection leading to
a discussion on our demonstrating a higher level of civility to each
other on the internet. Silly me. What a pity it has now been
hijacked into a discussion of concealed carry in bars.

This is an amazingly creative bunch, isn't it? d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:20:34 -0800 (PST), Vernon
wrote:

On Jan 4, 7:48*pm, Vernon wrote:
Years ago, in another life, I worked on deep sea seismic survey
vessels. *In that capacity I ran up and down both coastlines of north,
central, and south america, from the Faukland Islands in the south
Atlantic to the northern stretches of the Bering Sea offshore Alaska.

One summer day in 1979, at about midnight, I was in a bar in Homer,
Alaska. *The bar was brim full but quiet, and subdued. *I was standing
at the bar next to a fellow Texan, named "Tiny". *"Tiny" stood nearly
eye to eye with a grizzly bear.

I remarked to "Tiny" about how tranquil and subdued the bar was. *I
mentioned that "in Texas it would be loud and boisterous".

Tiny answered: *"It's different in Alaska. *I don't know about you but
you can be sure that everybody else in here is packing a gun and a
knife and will not hesitate to draw either if threatened. *So we're
polite because nobody wants to be the cause of any bloodshed".

That conversation occurred before the dawn of the desktop PC computer
age, never mind the dawn of the internet.

I monitor and post to this group because I have a passion for metal
working. *And there are people here, whose knowledge, and generosity
in sharing that knowledge, I admire and appreciate, immensely.

I politely suggest that many of the others here should be ashamed of
yourselves. *The level of acrimony and nastiness, is truly toxic. *I
am as indifferent to your political views as I am to whether you drive
a Ford, Chevy, or a Toyota.

But I will say this: *"Conservatism" is the cloth from which America
is cut. *And I would prefer the company of the most egregiously
ignorant American hillbilly, than that of a Moslem extremist. *By
comparison, the most "conservative" and ignorant hillbilly is an
enlightened, tolerant, illuminati.

I recently read an article about a Russian cognoscenti who has
predicted the disintegration of the USA by the year 2010. *As I suffer
through the daily diatribe of hateful screed posted to this and to the
welding group in the never ending tit-for-tat insults between
"liberals" and "conservatives" this prediction seems less and less far
fetched.

Meanwhile, the jihadists are plotting to lop off our heads on their
way to world domination by the sword.

Makes me wish there were more "Tinies" in the world.

Respectfully,
Vernon

I had hoped that this post would lead to some introspection leading to
a discussion on our demonstrating a higher level of civility to each
other on the internet. Silly me. What a pity it has now been
hijacked into a discussion of concealed carry in bars. At the time of
the event there was no provision for concealed carry anywhere in the
USA. I was not carrying. I was a crewman on a ship. Nor was I
drunk.

As to the other patrons of the bar let's assume they were all drunk
and were all carrying. Even in that (hypothetical) condition they
were capable of a much higher level of civility and tolerance than I
find in this forum. As a matter of fact, if everyone would behave as
if he were the only unarmed person in a bar full of armed drunks, the
world would be a better place. To quote a line from "Pogo", a cartoon
strip from 40 years ago: "I has seen the enemy. And he looks a lot
like me". V

Heads up........this is Usenet, not a bar.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Vernon wrote:

As to the other patrons of the bar let's assume they were all drunk
and were all carrying. Even in that (hypothetical) condition they
were capable of a much higher level of civility and tolerance than I
find in this forum. As a matter of fact, if everyone would behave as
if he were the only unarmed person in a bar full of armed drunks, the
world would be a better place. To quote a line from "Pogo", a cartoon
strip from 40 years ago: "I has seen the enemy. And he looks a lot
like me". V


http://www.amazon.com/Pogo-We-Have-M.../dp/0671212605
Pogo: We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us

Sorry about the correction but it is one of my favorite quotes.

As to the lack of civility, that tends to show up when someone intentionally cross posts
to varied groups. For example:

1: misc.survivalism.................................. ............. : 533
2: alt.machines.cnc.................................. ............. : 350
3: alt.usenet.kooks.................................. ............. : 154
4: alt.politics.bush................................. ............. : 123
5: alt.survival...................................... ............. : 112
6: alt.aol.tricks.................................... ............. : 50
7: rec.boats......................................... ............. : 34
8: alt.****nozzles................................... ............. : 34
9: alt.aratzio....................................... ............. : 29
10: alt.global-warming........................................... .. : 29

Now if you look at that list you can see 1 and 7 are not likely related to metalworking, 2
is likely a legitimate cross post. Not sure on rec.boats, might have been a thread
related but the rest are used to churn up the totally rabid.

Too many people don't have their news readers set to only respond to the message in the
news group you read it in. So they become fish for the trolls. I have mine set to only
respond where I read it because times I rise to the fly (take the hook).

Now go do you homework, look at every off topic thread that is a gasoline on the fire type
and check the headers. Then notice who started it. You have a good start on your kill
filter.

The statistics that I post every week is a gentle reminder of how far off topic we, and I,
have gone. I don't think it has done a lot of good but I tried.


Wes