"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Terry Coombs"
wrote:
I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin .
Nothing fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the
steel yard with a load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !

I'll pass on some advice that was given to me a number of years ago:
if all
your bids are accepted, you're pricing your work too cheaply.

Heh , Im looking for about a 15%-25% rejection rate . I learned that
lesson while I was doing home repairs and remodels . Too many mean you're
too high ... if I start getting over 30 % , I'll have to revisit my
pricing structure .


Well good luck.
Downturns are a great time to start a business and it sounds like you know
what you are doing.
Let us know how things are going!

JC

On Nov 25, 5:57*pm, Wes wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote:
I'm wondering where I'm open to *liability , since you're the second person
to mention insurance coverage . Perhaps in the event one of my units fails ?
I can't see the bar unit itself failing , but perhaps the surface it's
mounted on ...

One thing to consider, are you a rock that a contingency fee lawyer is going to be able to
squeeze water or blood out of? *

Insurance is for people with something to lose. *Of all things, I'd think what you are
making is one of the safer things in manufacturing. *Big assed bars over the window, my
sawsall going through the wall, my bet is on the sawsall.

Bars over windows are feel good stuff. *In the typical frame home, a battery powered
sawsall can penetrate the wall, cut a hole, and you can reach in and unlock the door.

I don't think I'd be worried about the insurance too much.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." *Dick Anthony Heller

One of the ironies of our litigious society is that liability coverage
virtually guarantees you will be sued. Conversely, the lack of such
coverage almost guarantees that you will not. Lawyers look for a deep
pocket. If there isn't one they don't bother.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:47:45 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Jim Chandler wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:41:57 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I my opinion - and my experience bears this out - anyone that's
willing to get off their ass and WORK can make a living . Unlike
those who sit on their ass and whine about how bad things are .
Which are you , Hawke ?

Great attitude. FWIW, the whole world told me I was f$%^ing nuts
when I quit my job in 1991 to grow apples. Its been 17 years and
I've never looked back. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about
insurance until you start to make a profit. You're taking a risk,
but the scammers only go after deep pockets. My feeling is you can
easily overinsure yourself and doom any chance of profit.

Karl



Someone on the ultralight forum the other day suggested that someone
in a situation such as yours incorporate so as to keep your personal
assets clear of the business. Your liability exposure should be
minimal. They suggest that after forming your corporation that you
carry NO liability insurance whatever. As was said above, the lawyers
only go after deep pockets and if you don't even HAVE any poskets,
they're not going to be bothered.

Jim

Kinda counter-intuitive , but it makes sense !


It's called making yourself "judgement proof".

Can't get blood from a stone.

On Nov 25, 3:41*pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
I my opinion - and my experience bears this out - anyone that's willing to
get off their ass and WORK can make a living . Unlike those who sit on
their ass and whine about how bad things are .
*Which are you , Hawke ?

Great attitude. FWIW, the whole world told me I was f$%^ing nuts when I quit
my job in 1991 to grow apples. Its been 17 years and I've never looked back.
Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about insurance until you start to
make a profit. You're taking a risk, but the scammers only go after deep
pockets. My feeling is you can easily overinsure yourself and doom any
chance of profit.

Karl

Karl, you are probably correct about the insurance, except he will
need a contractors license if he does the actual installation and that
will require insurance to provide the bonding.

Paul

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:10:44 -0500, the infamous Pete Snell
scrawled the following:

wrote:

I believe in that case, she won because that McD's had been warned
repeatedly that their coffee was excessively hot. There's hot coffee,
and then there's 'burn on contact' coffee.

Yeah, my understanding of that case is that the case was sound, but
the settlement was larger than even the jury expected. It was based on
the something like the proceeds of the money McDonalds made in one day
by selling their coffee in the US. Turned out to be a much larger number
than the jury anticipated.

The large award was remittitured by the judge and the actual
settlement was stated to be enough to pay her hospital bills.

Any other person in the world would have immediately jumped out of the
slow-moving car and flapped their clothing to cool off the liquid in
about 30 seconds, never receiving more than a red patch of skin from
the experience. sigh

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
I believe in that case, she won because that McD's had been warned
repeatedly that their coffee was excessively hot. There's hot coffee,
and then there's 'burn on contact' coffee.

To properly brew drip coffee you need water that is between 190 and 200
degrees F. Burger King has a liquid instant product that doesn't have to
be
as hot.

The suit was BS. As an example, if she had ordered hot tea, that should
start with water that is at a full boil.


You don't know what you are talking about. Any time you are in business and
are selling a product to the public you are obligated to make sure that
product is not harmful to people. If it is and you sell it and it harms
someone you are liable for their injuries. McDonalds had been warned over
and over their coffee was too hot and many people had already been burned.
McDonalds ignored the warnings and went on selling its coffee at a temp that
was dangerous. The woman who sued got 3rd degree burns and spent three days
in the hospital. I'd say that coffee was dangerously hot. So she was awarded
the proceeds of a day's worth of coffee sales for the whole chain. For a
company that big to be deterred from doing something the price to it has to
be big. The lawsuit was not frivolous and the woman deserved what she got.
But if you knew the facts you would know that.

Hawke

"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:33:57 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin .
Nothing
fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the steel yard
with
a
load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?


Going into business for yourself, eh? In this business environment? Boy,
you
are going to need a lot of luck. I don't want to tell you what the odds
of
failure for a new start up are so good luck anyway. You will be needing a
lot of it to even make it through the first year. You'll be needing quite
a
bit of money too. I don't want to scare you off but making a new business
pay off is a real challenge. If you can make any money from your efforts
you'll have done a lot better than most.

Hawke



At least he's TRYING, not just sitting on his ass waiting for the
government to take care of him. I say, go for it Terry. At least you
may have some income, as opposed to no income.

Jim


Easy for you to say. You aren't putting out a dime or risking anything. He's
going to put in all his time and a lot of money. Odds are he'll lose it all.
That's not being pessimistic that's just the reality of a new start up
business. It's very risky. Most people that try it lose everything they put
into it and they work for nothing. It's not for the faint hearted or the
risk averse. Most people are much better off looking for a new job than
risking everything they have on a business. It's sounds like a downer but
that is the reality. Welcome to America.

Hawke

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Hawke wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin .
Nothing fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the
steel yard with a load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?


Going into business for yourself, eh? In this business environment?
Boy, you are going to need a lot of luck. I don't want to tell you
what the odds of failure for a new start up are so good luck anyway.
You will be needing a lot of it to even make it through the first
year. You'll be needing quite a bit of money too. I don't want to
scare you off but making a new business pay off is a real challenge.
If you can make any money from your efforts you'll have done a lot
better than most.

Hawke

Well ain't you a ray of hope in an otherwise gray and gloomy day . Ya
think I haven't thought this out and done at least some basic research ? I
know what the odds are , I know what the market for this product is , I
know
the price point I need to beat , and have a pretty damn good estimate of
my
expected profit margin . As far as capitalization , I already own most of
the tooling I'll need , I have space for the operations I'll be doing .
I have connections to a customer base , and already have a couple of
estimates to run for tomorrow . I was asked to estimate based on a sample
I
fabricated this afternoon ...
And to ice this cake , I also have a degree in accounting and business
management - along with several years experience in running my own
business
.
I my opinion - and my experience bears this out - anyone that's willing
to
get off their ass and WORK can make a living . Unlike those who sit on
their
ass and whine about how bad things are .
Which are you , Hawke ?
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills


Get back to us in a year and let us know if you have shown a profit. I know
the odds. You're taking a big risk, which you probably know. That's all I'm
saying. You're talking about a one man business going up against established
businesses and in a bad recession to boot. Like I said, good luck. You're
going to need it. And if you do fail you won't be able to complain about it
either since you just went and criticized others who whine about how bad
things are. I've been in business. I know how hard it is. All I'm saying is
that you are not going to have an easy time making a buck and you will most
likely fail. Sorry, but that is the hard truth. Maybe you should thank me
for telling you the truth but I know better than to expect that. The guys
egging you on have nothing to lose. Maybe I should join them in encouraging
you, jump, jump, jump. Like that better?

Hawke

Larry Jaques writes:

Any other person in the world would have immediately jumped out of the
slow-moving car and flapped their clothing to cool off the liquid in
about 30 seconds, never receiving more than a red patch of skin from
the experience. sigh

Most people wouldn't have held an easily-distorted cup of hot coffee
between their thighs to take the top off and add sugar in the first
place.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:17:43 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:33:57 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin .
Nothing
fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the steel yard
with
a
load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?


Going into business for yourself, eh? In this business environment? Boy,
you
are going to need a lot of luck. I don't want to tell you what the odds
of
failure for a new start up are so good luck anyway. You will be needing a
lot of it to even make it through the first year. You'll be needing quite
a
bit of money too. I don't want to scare you off but making a new business
pay off is a real challenge. If you can make any money from your efforts
you'll have done a lot better than most.

Hawke



At least he's TRYING, not just sitting on his ass waiting for the
government to take care of him. I say, go for it Terry. At least you
may have some income, as opposed to no income.

Jim


Easy for you to say. You aren't putting out a dime or risking anything. He's
going to put in all his time and a lot of money. Odds are he'll lose it all.
That's not being pessimistic that's just the reality of a new start up
business. It's very risky. Most people that try it lose everything they put
into it and they work for nothing. It's not for the faint hearted or the
risk averse. Most people are much better off looking for a new job than
risking everything they have on a business. It's sounds like a downer but
that is the reality. Welcome to America.

Hawke

Snag doesn't sound like "most people" to me. Many who fail have no
previous experience, nevermind degrees in accounting and/or business,
or even doing any homework. Hope is definitely not a strategy. It's
clear to me that Snag understands that because he's reported some
homework and quite likely done a lot more he hasn't reported.

You can't know what the odds are for his success without knowing a
lot more details than have been presented. Percentage of failed
ventures per year is a statistic that could be completely irrelevant
he it could just as well reflect percentage of attempts by people
who skip due diligence and/or simply don't know enough about business
to succeed.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:27:04 -0500, Al Patrick wrote:

Terry Coombs wrote:

About the time (ass/u/ming) this starts making good money , I'll be
incorporating the business . Insulation of personal assets is just a good
idea ...

The best of luck on this venture. You're right about crime going up. A gun dealer
recently told me that his safe sales was keeping him going at that time - a few months back.

You want to keep your overhead and risks low, but you might also consider combining this
with related businesses like security systems and safe sales. The three should go well
together. Not everyone sees the same danger from the same angle and some would buy a safe
or get a security system that may not see the need for the other(s).

dont! do alarm systems yourself unless you have been in the biz for a
long time.

however you can take samples to local alarm companies with your business
card and some photos and let them sub bars and such to you. stick with
what you know. Same with safes

dont bother with the big national alarm companies. they sell packages.


Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:45:13 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Wes wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote:

I'm wondering where I'm open to liability , since you're the second person
to mention insurance coverage . Perhaps in the event one of my units fails ?
I can't see the bar unit itself failing , but perhaps the surface it's
mounted on ...

One thing to consider, are you a rock that a contingency fee lawyer is going to be able to
squeeze water or blood out of?

Insurance is for people with something to lose. Of all things, I'd think what you are
making is one of the safer things in manufacturing. Big assed bars over the window, my
sawsall going through the wall, my bet is on the sawsall.

Bars over windows are feel good stuff. In the typical frame home, a battery powered
sawsall can penetrate the wall, cut a hole, and you can reach in and unlock the door.

I don't think I'd be worried about the insurance too much.

As I noted, one of the risks is his super duper security bars preventing
an occupant from escaping a fire.


will he be selling the bars, or selling and installing?

there is far more liability as an installer/seller

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:50:55 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:16:13 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Hawke wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before
...) building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few
local fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair
margin . Nothing fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned
from the steel yard with a load of stock for fabricating samples
... Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?


Going into business for yourself, eh? In this business environment?
Boy, you are going to need a lot of luck. I don't want to tell you
what the odds of failure for a new start up are so good luck anyway.
You will be needing a lot of it to even make it through the first
year. You'll be needing quite a bit of money too. I don't want to
scare you off but making a new business pay off is a real challenge.
If you can make any money from your efforts you'll have done a lot
better than most.

Hawke

Well ain't you a ray of hope in an otherwise gray and gloomy day .
Ya think I haven't thought this out and done at least some basic
research ? I know what the odds are , I know what the market for
this product is , I know the price point I need to beat , and have a
pretty damn good estimate of my expected profit margin . As far as
capitalization , I already own most of the tooling I'll need , I
have space for the operations I'll be doing . I have connections to
a customer base , and already have a couple of estimates to run for
tomorrow . I was asked to estimate based on a sample I fabricated
this afternoon ... And to ice this cake , I also have a degree in
accounting and business management - along with several years
experience in running my own business .
I my opinion - and my experience bears this out - anyone that's
willing to get off their ass and WORK can make a living . Unlike
those who sit on their ass and whine about how bad things are .
Which are you , Hawke ?


Hawkey lives in his moms basement. Unemployed, useless, fat and pizza
faced, living in the squalor of empty chip wrappers, Mt Dew empties
and cockroaches. He only comes up to restock on HoHos, the lastest
video
game and Hustler magazine.

Pay no attention to him, he would **** on the parade of anyone with
more
gumption than he has, which is 99.99999999 % of the human race.

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of
Spotsylvania

Hmmm , worse than I thought . I figgered him for a 35 year old loser with
terminal acne , no girlfriend , and the requisite pile of empty soda cans
and chip wrappers around his computer desk .
I mean after all , " Hawke" ?? With an "e" ??

Hawky?

Cheers,

Schwiek
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:17:43 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:33:57 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before
...) building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few
local fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair
margin . Nothing fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned
from the steel yard with a load of stock for fabricating samples
... Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?


Going into business for yourself, eh? In this business
environment? Boy, you are going to need a lot of luck. I don't
want to tell you what the odds of failure for a new start up are
so good luck anyway. You will be needing a lot of it to even make
it through the first year. You'll be needing quite a bit of money
too. I don't want to scare you off but making a new business pay
off is a real challenge. If you can make any money from your
efforts you'll have done a lot better than most.

Hawke



At least he's TRYING, not just sitting on his ass waiting for the
government to take care of him. I say, go for it Terry. At least
you may have some income, as opposed to no income.

Jim


Easy for you to say. You aren't putting out a dime or risking
anything. He's going to put in all his time and a lot of money. Odds
are he'll lose it all. That's not being pessimistic that's just the
reality of a new start up business. It's very risky. Most people
that try it lose everything they put into it and they work for
nothing. It's not for the faint hearted or the risk averse. Most
people are much better off looking for a new job than risking
everything they have on a business. It's sounds like a downer but
that is the reality. Welcome to America.

Hawke

Snag doesn't sound like "most people" to me. Many who fail have no
previous experience, nevermind degrees in accounting and/or business,
or even doing any homework. Hope is definitely not a strategy. It's
clear to me that Snag understands that because he's reported some
homework and quite likely done a lot more he hasn't reported.

You can't know what the odds are for his success without knowing a
lot more details than have been presented. Percentage of failed
ventures per year is a statistic that could be completely irrelevant
he it could just as well reflect percentage of attempts by people
who skip due diligence and/or simply don't know enough about business
to succeed.

Thank you !
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:10:52 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
I believe in that case, she won because that McD's had been warned
repeatedly that their coffee was excessively hot. There's hot coffee,
and then there's 'burn on contact' coffee.

To properly brew drip coffee you need water that is between 190 and 200
degrees F. Burger King has a liquid instant product that doesn't have to
be
as hot.

The suit was BS. As an example, if she had ordered hot tea, that should
start with water that is at a full boil.


You don't know what you are talking about. Any time you are in business and
are selling a product to the public you are obligated to make sure that
product is not harmful to people. If it is and you sell it and it harms
someone you are liable for their injuries. McDonalds had been warned over
and over their coffee was too hot and many people had already been burned.
McDonalds ignored the warnings and went on selling its coffee at a temp that
was dangerous. The woman who sued got 3rd degree burns and spent three days
in the hospital. I'd say that coffee was dangerously hot. So she was awarded
the proceeds of a day's worth of coffee sales for the whole chain. For a
company that big to be deterred from doing something the price to it has to
be big. The lawsuit was not frivolous and the woman deserved what she got.
But if you knew the facts you would know that.

Hawke



Actually the facts are a little different. Try
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
for a more accurate account.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Hawke wrote:
Get back to us in a year and let us know if you have shown a profit.
I know the odds. You're taking a big risk, which you probably know.
That's all I'm saying. You're talking about a one man business going
up against established businesses and in a bad recession to boot.
Like I said, good luck. You're going to need it. And if you do fail
you won't be able to complain about it either since you just went and
criticized others who whine about how bad things are. I've been in
business. I know how hard it is. All I'm saying is that you are not
going to have an easy time making a buck and you will most likely
fail. Sorry, but that is the hard truth. Maybe you should thank me
for telling you the truth but I know better than to expect that. The
guys egging you on have nothing to lose. Maybe I should join them in
encouraging you, jump, jump, jump. Like that better?

Hawke


You just don't get it do ya ? The businesses that make it all did what I've
done . They've researched their market , assessed the need for their product
, and aimed at a price point that will make them competetive with the "big
boys" in that market . THE RECESSION IS WHAT MAKES THIS VIABLE !!!
Yer an idiot . Now sweep up that pile of chips ya just spilled . And go
take a bath , phwew !
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:06:27 +0700, the infamous Bruce in Bangkok
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:10:52 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
I believe in that case, she won because that McD's had been warned
repeatedly that their coffee was excessively hot. There's hot coffee,
and then there's 'burn on contact' coffee.

To properly brew drip coffee you need water that is between 190 and 200
degrees F. Burger King has a liquid instant product that doesn't have to
be
as hot.

The suit was BS. As an example, if she had ordered hot tea, that should
start with water that is at a full boil.


You don't know what you are talking about. Any time you are in business and
are selling a product to the public you are obligated to make sure that
product is not harmful to people. If it is and you sell it and it harms
someone you are liable for their injuries. McDonalds had been warned over
and over their coffee was too hot and many people had already been burned.
McDonalds ignored the warnings and went on selling its coffee at a temp that
was dangerous. The woman who sued got 3rd degree burns and spent three days
in the hospital. I'd say that coffee was dangerously hot. So she was awarded
the proceeds of a day's worth of coffee sales for the whole chain. For a
company that big to be deterred from doing something the price to it has to
be big. The lawsuit was not frivolous and the woman deserved what she got.
But if you knew the facts you would know that.

Hawke



Actually the facts are a little different. Try
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
for a more accurate account.

Parakeet is a brainless, liberal, fidiot troll (is that redundant?)
who doesn't deserve airtime, guys. Just hit Ignore next time.
Don't take the bait...he's not worth it.

--
"Menja bé, caga fort!"

On 2008-11-25, Terry Coombs wrote:
I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin . Nothing
fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the steel yard with a
load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !

Good luck Terry! Keep us posted on the progress.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus20222 wrote:
On 2008-11-25, Terry Coombs wrote:
I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin .
Nothing fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the
steel yard with a load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !

Good luck Terry! Keep us posted on the progress.

Thanks Iggy . I will update as things unfold - if only to thumb my nose at
the naysayers .
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:12:43 -0600, the renowned "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin . Nothing
fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the steel yard with a
load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !

Good luck!

Be careful about basing your business model solely on undercutting the
competition in price-- try to find something else that you do better
than them (delivery time, materials, design or something like that).
Many buying decisions don't go to the low bidder and unless you've
worked in their businesses you may be overestimating their costs
(they've had a long time to figure out the best suppliers for
everything) and new businessses sometimes have to deal with selective
price cutting by the established competition-- they figure that all
they need is to land a few good swats and you'll go away. You most
definitely *will* underestimate your own costs unless you've run a
very similar business yourself (signing checks and responsible for the
rent and payroll running, not just doing the work). All sorts of
things add up, and you're starting out with fewer clients to spread
them over. Talk to other people doing similar things.

Once again, best of luck!


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:12:43 -0600, the renowned "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin .
Nothing fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the
steel yard with a load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !

Good luck!

Be careful about basing your business model solely on undercutting the
competition in price-- try to find something else that you do better
than them (delivery time, materials, design or something like that).
Many buying decisions don't go to the low bidder and unless you've
worked in their businesses you may be overestimating their costs
(they've had a long time to figure out the best suppliers for
everything) and new businessses sometimes have to deal with selective
price cutting by the established competition-- they figure that all
they need is to land a few good swats and you'll go away. You most
definitely *will* underestimate your own costs unless you've run a
very similar business yourself (signing checks and responsible for the
rent and payroll running, not just doing the work). All sorts of
things add up, and you're starting out with fewer clients to spread
them over. Talk to other people doing similar things.

Once again, best of luck!


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Thanks , Spehro .
I'm basing my pitch on price , quality , and custom sizing . Most of the
vendors here are selling a "stock" item , that's adjustable for width .
That's one more weak spot ... they can be unbolted and yanked loose in two
pieces . My aim is to make a unit sized for the customer's window ,
bolted/screwed into the house framing - not the window trim . I'll also need
to design a unit that can be opened from inside easily without compromising
security , like for kid's rooms .
AC surrounds will need to be removeable for servicing and replacement ,
but I've already got that one figgered out . Customer will need to supply
the padlock ...
None of this stuff , mine or anyone else's , will stop a determined
professional . If they want in , they're gonna get in . My aim is to make it
difficult enough that they'll look for easier pickin's .
Most thieves are basically lazy , else they'd be workin' ...
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

SteveB wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...

I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin .
Nothing
fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the steel yard
with a
load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?

Good luck!

If your e mail addy is good, I can send you a few basics on the major
things to watch for, or post them here.

BTDT. Check for the local fire laws on releases, and where they are
required. You can get in a boatload of trouble for that. All the
rest of the stuff is small stuff you can solve or negotiate. If some
gets fried to a crisp, you'll be neck deep in it, and the FD
investigators and insurance agents will be crawling in your front
yard at first light.
I did what you did when I left the hotel. Never looked back. Had my
contractor's license in two months. There's a lot of advice here, so
ask as you go along. Dance within the lines and be safe.

My reply-to is good , but there might be others that can profit from your
insights too ...

I do need to check with local FD rules , I'm sure there are circumstances
where I'll need a means to open from inside - without compromising security
.. For a start , though , I've got a couple of AC surrounds to bid .
Condenser and window unit theft is a major problem here .
That might turn out to be enough business to keep this going ...
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...

I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before ...)
building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few local
fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair margin .
Nothing
fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned from the steel yard with
a
load of stock for fabricating samples ...
Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?

Good luck!

If your e mail addy is good, I can send you a few basics on the major things
to watch for, or post them here.

BTDT. Check for the local fire laws on releases, and where they are
required. You can get in a boatload of trouble for that. All the rest of
the stuff is small stuff you can solve or negotiate. If some gets fried to
a crisp, you'll be neck deep in it, and the FD investigators and insurance
agents will be crawling in your front yard at first light.

I did what you did when I left the hotel. Never looked back. Had my
contractor's license in two months. There's a lot of advice here, so ask as
you go along. Dance within the lines and be safe.

Karl, you are probably correct about the insurance, except he will
need a contractors license if he does the actual installation and that
will require insurance to provide the bonding.

Paul


I got some good advice when I was stressing over getting licensed. I got
the licenses for my city and the neighboring larger one, but wanted a
contractor's license. A friend said to wait until I got that much business,
then get it, but be studying in the meantime. That's what I did.

Steve

Thanks Iggy . I will update as things unfold - if only to thumb my nose
at the naysayers .
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

Do some homework. Who is your competition? What's the market?

If you have a lot of guys doing this where you are at, but not doing it
well, that's a good thing. Like you said, if you can beat their prices, do
it, but you don't have to do it by much. Example, if they charge $200, and
you can make money at $100, charge $150 and don't walk away from the $50.
Don't do free work for anyone. Charge what it's worth, and I'd start with a
$50 minimum and a $75 hourly rate. I said start, because you can always
negotiate. Just don't come down too far or you might as well take a nap or
go fishing. No sense to work all day for gas and supplies.

Look at the market around you. Go ask businesses, apartment projects,
property management companies, shopping centers, etc, if they are happy with
their present providers. I got one property management company that put me
in business with seven apartment projects and when I sold out, I had 275.
Most all of them said the welders did a crappy job if they showed up at all,
and charged $300 for an hours work. Treat them square and you'll keep them.

Stick with the "gravy work." Those are quick easy good paying jobs.
Particularly cash. I could make more money fixing some gate that some poor
welder cobbed together than I could by making the whole gate. There's a
need for portable repair, particularly now when people want to repair
instead of replace. If you have to spend time figuring out and designing a
solution, charge for that, too. If they knew how to do it, they would hand
you the plans. That also is worth money, so don't give it away.

Barter when you can. Sometimes you get twice the value than what you would
get in money. I have fixed those cart return rails for many a shopping
center, and those managers hand out those gift certs pretty loosely, and
they're just like cash. Mom likes them, too.

If you trade work, do it full retail for full retail.

Don't fall for the carrot and donkey trick. "I got more work for you if you
will do this job at a cut rate." Negotiate each job like you will never
sell that customer again. Most of those guys never come back with the
"good" or "big" work.

Keep your truck stocked. Going to the hardware store or welding supplier
will blow a four hour no profit hole in your day. Alarm your truck.

Employees are the kiss of death. Do everything you can by yourself, and
stay a one man operation as long as you can.

Use proposal sheets. They help you remember what you quoted for a job. If
the guy is a real pain, put a star on your copy, and know to refuse to do
the work, or that this guy is going to be a pain in the nuts. If they
complain about the price, they will pick you apart on everything else.
Careful about this until you understand the rules about contracting. You
may have to offer to do the work for $$ per hour, but when you quote a fixed
price, it goes from handyman classification to contract (offer and
acceptance) and you may need the license for that.

I'd save the money and get the contractor's license anyway, as the jobs you
can snag will pay for it quickly. It lets you run with bigger dogs.

GET DEPOSITS on custom work. I got 50/50.

Avoid the urge for nice new shiny trucks. Poor boy it. Used trucks and
used welders perform nearly as well as new ones. Fully paid for ones seem
to run even better. To customers new shiny expensive means this guy is
going to charge a lot. Look good, and get some shirts from work clothes
suppliers with company name and yours on it.

Get right and stay right with the authorities. Start out with small
licenses, like handyman for your city. Post your sales tax bond, and learn
how to pay the least on there. In some states, labor is not taxable, or you
can just pay use tax up front, and not have to break the sales down at the
end of the month. Your contractor's license will present itself. If you
are turning down work because you don't have one, get one. If you're just
doing hourly handyman work, don't get one.

GET WORKERS COMP. You can somewhat manipulate the money you pay yourself,
and that will be in the 10% range, a lot. But have your wife work as a
secretary, her rate will be 1/20th of yours because she isn't exposed to
anything more than a paper cut. Save$ $$. It is really cheap insurance on
you, and if you have a helper, it can save your bacon if he gets hurt. Some
jobs won't let you on property without it. It will open the doors to the
vault.

This is a lot, and it's a sequence, and not things to be done all at once.
First thing is to get ringing the cash register, pass out some cheap cards,
investigate the market and competition, go ask about licenses telling them
"you're thinking of doing this" and not actually doing it. Usually city
licenses are fairly cheap. State Contractors Boards USUALLY will let you
off with a warning or two, but check your state. I got a steel erection
contractor's license, and only had to take the office management part of the
test. NOT ONE question of welding, nor did I have to provide certs! Had
them, though.

I'm ready to hook up the old SA200 and try to go out and find some work,
too. But you just have to be selective, or else you have to go full boat
and get all the licenses and stuff. Don't forget that you can pick up and
deliver, and not have to have the on job exposure that site production
involves.

HTH

You can do it. Just try to do it within the lines so some gummint geek
doesn't trip you up.

Steve

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...

I do need to check with local FD rules , I'm sure there are circumstances
where I'll need a means to open from inside - without compromising
security . For a start , though , I've got a couple of AC surrounds to bid
. Condenser and window unit theft is a major problem here .
That might turn out to be enough business to keep this going ...
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills
First Good luck in your start-up If you provide a good quality product,
show up and get the job done, you won't have to worry about being the low
bid.

About bars and releases, ck with your building dept or whatever entity
issues permits and inspects the work. You need to know what building code is
adopted in the places you want to work. Some states have a prevailing code
and then the cities add to it or have a security code of their own. Next
talk to an inspector and get his/her take on it, local interpretation is
generally the final word. Some places the bars don't need a interior release
unless they protect an Egress. The number& dimensions of and egress can be
affected by several factors like: # of stories, distance from grade,# of
apts in building and what type of fire protective systems are in place like
hard wired smoke systems & sprinklers. The idea that you have to have 2 ways
out of every room or apt sounds good but is not true. Unless the fire dept
does inspections they may not know the correct answer. No firefighter likes
window bars because they block a way for us to get out, but that doesn't
mean that you can't have them.
Another good source of info is Nomma, there used to be a section on their
web site that delt with code issues.

Good luck

Andrew

AndrewV wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...

I do need to check with local FD rules , I'm sure there are
circumstances where I'll need a means to open from inside - without
compromising security . For a start , though , I've got a couple of
AC surrounds to bid . Condenser and window unit theft is a major
problem here . That might turn out to be enough business to keep
this going ... --
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills
First Good luck in your start-up If you provide a good quality
product, show up and get the job done, you won't have to worry about
being the low bid.

I've heard that before - because it's true . Might have ot let a few go a
bit cheaper to get the word out though . A happy customer can be the best
advertising you can get .

About bars and releases, ck with your building dept or whatever entity
issues permits and inspects the work. You need to know what building
code is adopted in the places you want to work. Some states have a
prevailing code and then the cities add to it or have a security code
of their own. Next talk to an inspector and get his/her take on it,
local interpretation is generally the final word. Some places the
bars don't need a interior release unless they protect an Egress. The
number& dimensions of and egress can be affected by several factors
like: # of stories, distance from grade,# of apts in building and
what type of fire protective systems are in place like hard wired
smoke systems & sprinklers. The idea that you have to have 2 ways out
of every room or apt sounds good but is not true. Unless the fire
dept does inspections they may not know the correct answer. No
firefighter likes window bars because they block a way for us to get
out, but that doesn't mean that you can't have them. Another good source
of info is Nomma, there used to be a section on
their web site that delt with code issues.

Good luck

Andrew

More good advice , thank you !
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

"Terry Coombs" wrote:

None of this stuff , mine or anyone else's , will stop a determined
professional . If they want in , they're gonna get in . My aim is to make it
difficult enough that they'll look for easier pickin's .
Most thieves are basically lazy , else they'd be workin' ...

Sawsall though an exterior wall. You are in. My 18v ryobi saw could do the job. I'm
sure DeWalt makes something much nicer.

But if the bars make them feel safer, which to some degree it does, more the merrier.

Wes

Terry Coombs wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Terry Coombs wrote:

Buerste wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...

I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before
...) building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few
local fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair
margin . Nothing fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned
from the steel yard with a load of stock for fabricating samples
... Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?


Best of luck, don't underprice too much.

Thanks , and I'm shooting for 20% under the big guys . I have a
lot less overhead ... and no employees to pay SSI , insurance ,
workmen's comp , etc for .

Don't forget your tax overhead, you do have to pay SSI and whatnot on
yourself. Schedule C stuff...


My wife has repeatedly reminded me about that ... I'm not going to fall
into that trap again , it's all going into a savings account and payments
will be made quarterly .




And remeber, SSI is really 12.4% and not the 6.2 % you see on your
payroll check stub.

John

john wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Terry Coombs wrote:

Buerste wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...

I've decided to go into business for myself (been there before
...) building window bars and A/C surrounds . I've checked a few
local fabricators , and I can beat their prices by a pretty fair
margin . Nothing fancy , just basic security bars . Just returned
from the steel yard with a load of stock for fabricating samples
... Getting laid off last week might be a blessing !
--
Snag
When times get tough , break-ins go up ... are YOU protected ?


Best of luck, don't underprice too much.

Thanks , and I'm shooting for 20% under the big guys . I have a
lot less overhead ... and no employees to pay SSI , insurance ,
workmen's comp , etc for .

Don't forget your tax overhead, you do have to pay SSI and whatnot
on yourself. Schedule C stuff...


My wife has repeatedly reminded me about that ... I'm not going to
fall into that trap again , it's all going into a savings account
and payments will be made quarterly .




And remeber, SSI is really 12.4% and not the 6.2 % you see on your
payroll check stub.

John

Ohhh , yeah ! I know it's double , been in business before . There's an
awful lot about being in business for yourself that the general public just
doesn't know about . And I think you might have the withholding percentages
wrong - though I haven't checked , and I know that since I was last in
business 1992 they have changed the structure of SSI and medicaid/medicare
withholding .
I wish they'd passed legislation that would let me handle that myself . I
trust me a hell of a lot more than I trust "them" . Been putting 6%+ away
over and above SSI for several years now .
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

Wes wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

None of this stuff , mine or anyone else's , will stop a determined
professional . If they want in , they're gonna get in . My aim is to
make it difficult enough that they'll look for easier pickin's .
Most thieves are basically lazy , else they'd be workin' ...

Sawsall though an exterior wall. You are in. My 18v ryobi saw could
do the job. I'm sure DeWalt makes something much nicer.

But if the bars make them feel safer, which to some degree it does,
more the merrier.

Wes
Most of the perps around here wouldn't know which end of a Sawzall to
hold - hell , they don't even know how to hold a handgun ! Professional
thieves , on the other hand , are an entirely different matter . If they
want in , they're gonna get in . Best ya can do is slow 'em down .
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:14:49 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Wes wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

None of this stuff , mine or anyone else's , will stop a determined
professional . If they want in , they're gonna get in . My aim is to
make it difficult enough that they'll look for easier pickin's .
Most thieves are basically lazy , else they'd be workin' ...

Sawsall though an exterior wall. You are in. My 18v ryobi saw could
do the job. I'm sure DeWalt makes something much nicer.

But if the bars make them feel safer, which to some degree it does,
more the merrier.

Wes
Most of the perps around here wouldn't know which end of a Sawzall to
hold - hell , they don't even know how to hold a handgun ! Professional
thieves , on the other hand , are an entirely different matter . If they
want in , they're gonna get in . Best ya can do is slow 'em down .


Run a couple 220 volt wires through the wall where they would cut with
the sawzall and you MIGHT stop them cold on the front step.

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:37:15 -0500, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

"Terry Coombs" wrote:

None of this stuff , mine or anyone else's , will stop a determined
professional . If they want in , they're gonna get in . My aim is to make it
difficult enough that they'll look for easier pickin's .
Most thieves are basically lazy , else they'd be workin' ...

Sawsall though an exterior wall. You are in. My 18v ryobi saw could do the job. I'm
sure DeWalt makes something much nicer.

Yeah, I've heard a few years ago that a 4" cordless chainsaw was one
of the newest tools of the break-in trade, used where they don't worry
about making noise. "Guard dogs" are one snack or round away from
quiet, and barbed wire is hopped in 3 seconds by tossing a blanket or
jacket on top. Add the "popping" trade (smack the lock pick with a
small hammer and it instantly opens any keyed lock) has made ALL locks
insecure, though medium length pry bars can open most front or back
doors in an instant, then can be used to break most door chains.

Backing a pickup into a house to open it up has been tried, too. That
still works.

Ayup, if someone wants in, there are myriad quick and simple ways.


But if the bars make them feel safer, which to some degree it does, more the merrier.

Right, snag 'em, Snag! Provide the service and product. They -are-
out there wanting 'em.

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

"Terry Coombs" wrote:

But if the bars make them feel safer, which to some degree it does,
more the merrier.

Wes
Most of the perps around here wouldn't know which end of a Sawzall to
hold - hell , they don't even know how to hold a handgun ! Professional
thieves , on the other hand , are an entirely different matter . If they
want in , they're gonna get in . Best ya can do is slow 'em down .

Maybe you should breed ferocious sounding dogs and do bars.

Wes

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:02:24 -0600, the infamous "Terry Coombs"
scrawled the following:

AndrewV wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...

I do need to check with local FD rules , I'm sure there are
circumstances where I'll need a means to open from inside - without
compromising security . For a start , though , I've got a couple of
AC surrounds to bid . Condenser and window unit theft is a major
problem here . That might turn out to be enough business to keep
this going ... --
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills
First Good luck in your start-up If you provide a good quality
product, show up and get the job done, you won't have to worry about
being the low bid.

I've heard that before - because it's true . Might have ot let a few go a
bit cheaper to get the word out though . A happy customer can be the best
advertising you can get .

I strongly recommend against that, Terry. Once you set a price,
discounts seem to be the rule and people will think you're trying to
cheat them if your regular price is higher.

BTDT and got bitten for it.

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Wes wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote:

I'm wondering where I'm open to liability , since you're the second
person
to mention insurance coverage . Perhaps in the event one of my units
fails ?
I can't see the bar unit itself failing , but perhaps the surface it's
mounted on ...

One thing to consider, are you a rock that a contingency fee lawyer is
going to be able to
squeeze water or blood out of?

Insurance is for people with something to lose. Of all things, I'd think
what you are
making is one of the safer things in manufacturing. Big assed bars over
the window, my
sawsall going through the wall, my bet is on the sawsall.

Bars over windows are feel good stuff. In the typical frame home, a
battery powered
sawsall can penetrate the wall, cut a hole, and you can reach in and
unlock the door.

I don't think I'd be worried about the insurance too much.

As I noted, one of the risks is his super duper security bars preventing
an occupant from escaping a fire.

When the oil boom went bust and a savings and loan scandal broke, rroperty
values declined in OKC in the mid 80s.

My neighbor had a set of bars installed on his house as the "hood" invaded
our subdivision . I expressed my concerns about fire and he showed me how
the bottom "lagbolts" were really just bolt heads welded to the frame and
the whole assembly would pivot on the top bolts. This allowed the grating
to pivot and the occupants to go out thru the window. I think only the
bedrooms were spoofed this way and the other windows had real mounts.

Very clever thinking.

I bought a big loud dog instead.

All the other houses on the street got burglarized, except his and mine.

Mark (Weimaraners Rule, Dude) Dunning




----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
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Mark Dunning wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Wes wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote:

I'm wondering where I'm open to liability , since you're the
second person
to mention insurance coverage . Perhaps in the event one of my
units fails ?
I can't see the bar unit itself failing , but perhaps the surface
it's mounted on ...

One thing to consider, are you a rock that a contingency fee lawyer
is going to be able to
squeeze water or blood out of?

Insurance is for people with something to lose. Of all things, I'd
think what you are
making is one of the safer things in manufacturing. Big assed bars
over the window, my
sawsall going through the wall, my bet is on the sawsall.

Bars over windows are feel good stuff. In the typical frame home, a
battery powered
sawsall can penetrate the wall, cut a hole, and you can reach in and
unlock the door.

I don't think I'd be worried about the insurance too much.

As I noted, one of the risks is his super duper security bars
preventing an occupant from escaping a fire.

When the oil boom went bust and a savings and loan scandal broke,
rroperty values declined in OKC in the mid 80s.

My neighbor had a set of bars installed on his house as the "hood"
invaded our subdivision . I expressed my concerns about fire and he
showed
me how the bottom "lagbolts" were really just bolt heads welded to the
frame
and the whole assembly would pivot on the top bolts. This allowed the
grating to pivot and the occupants to go out thru the window. I think
only
the bedrooms were spoofed this way and the other windows had real mounts.

Very clever thinking.

I bought a big loud dog instead.

All the other houses on the street got burglarized, except his and
mine.
Mark (Weimaraners Rule, Dude) Dunning


Which just goes to show that the *appearance* of security is often enough
to deter amateurs ... I got dogs , too . The one that looks like a coyote
has quite a rep on the street . They all think the other one is a teddy bear
.... heh .
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:57:21 -0500, the infamous "Mark Dunning"
scrawled the following:


My neighbor had a set of bars installed on his house as the "hood" invaded
our subdivision . I expressed my concerns about fire and he showed me how
the bottom "lagbolts" were really just bolt heads welded to the frame and
the whole assembly would pivot on the top bolts. This allowed the grating
to pivot and the occupants to go out thru the window. I think only the
bedrooms were spoofed this way and the other windows had real mounts.

Very clever thinking.

Until someone tests it from the outside.


I bought a big loud dog instead.

I'll bet your neighbors just _love_ you for that, too. I suffer from
"guard dogs" next door and I can tell you that it's no fracking
picnic. I hope you trained yours to be quiet unless someone was
coming -over- the fence. (Otherwise, see last sentence.)

I even went so far as to buy an ultrasonic collar for their lead
barker, gave it to her, and she refused to put it on. I need to go
over there and get it back, then put up an industrial duty model in my
own yard.

May all loud and untrained dog owners and their pooches rot in Hell,
and soon!

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

Mark Dunning wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Wes wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote:

I'm wondering where I'm open to liability , since you're the second
person
to mention insurance coverage . Perhaps in the event one of my units
fails ?
I can't see the bar unit itself failing , but perhaps the surface it's
mounted on ...

One thing to consider, are you a rock that a contingency fee lawyer is
going to be able to
squeeze water or blood out of?

Insurance is for people with something to lose. Of all things, I'd think
what you are
making is one of the safer things in manufacturing. Big assed bars over
the window, my
sawsall going through the wall, my bet is on the sawsall.

Bars over windows are feel good stuff. In the typical frame home, a
battery powered
sawsall can penetrate the wall, cut a hole, and you can reach in and
unlock the door.

I don't think I'd be worried about the insurance too much.

As I noted, one of the risks is his super duper security bars preventing
an occupant from escaping a fire.

When the oil boom went bust and a savings and loan scandal broke, rroperty
values declined in OKC in the mid 80s.

My neighbor had a set of bars installed on his house as the "hood" invaded
our subdivision . I expressed my concerns about fire and he showed me how
the bottom "lagbolts" were really just bolt heads welded to the frame and
the whole assembly would pivot on the top bolts. This allowed the grating
to pivot and the occupants to go out thru the window. I think only the
bedrooms were spoofed this way and the other windows had real mounts.

Very clever thinking.

Personally, if I were to make such bars, the four corner bolts would be
sleeved through the wall and secured with pins on a rip cord type
mechanism. Perfectly secure normally, but pull the rip cord and just
push the bars off.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:02:24 -0600, the infamous "Terry Coombs"
scrawled the following:

AndrewV wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...

I do need to check with local FD rules , I'm sure there are
circumstances where I'll need a means to open from inside - without
compromising security . For a start , though , I've got a couple of
AC surrounds to bid . Condenser and window unit theft is a major
problem here . That might turn out to be enough business to keep
this going ... --
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills
First Good luck in your start-up If you provide a good quality
product, show up and get the job done, you won't have to worry about
being the low bid.

I've heard that before - because it's true . Might have ot let a few go a
bit cheaper to get the word out though . A happy customer can be the best
advertising you can get .

I strongly recommend against that, Terry. Once you set a price,
discounts seem to be the rule and people will think you're trying to
cheat them if your regular price is higher.

BTDT and got bitten for it.

Sometimes prices can be too low and prevent sales as well. I once worked
with a friend selling stuff at a hamfest, we had a big box of perfect
new Belden power cords marked $0.50/ea and they were not selling. We got
****ed, marked them up to $1/ea and sold out.