Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old November 19th 08, 02:34 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default recount votes tommrrow

You may have heard the senate race in MN is 200 votes from a tie...I'll be
part of the hand recount tomorrow.

After 2000, the Feds handed out a lot of money for voting equipment upgrade.
Nearly all (I think all but can't be certain) upgraded to a ballot on heavy
paper where you fill in the dot for your vote. At the ballot box, a machine
tallies your vote secretly and informs you if there are over votes (too many
candidate for one office) or under votes (offices that weren't voted.

This system was supposed to be idiot proof but, of course, they just built a
better idiot.

First, the ballot machine beeps on an over or under vote. Almost without
exception, the voter tells the ballot judge to accept anyway. This is where
the idiots get their chance.

On hand inspection, I'm sure ballots will be found where the voter has
erased or crossed out one candidate and voted for the other, ballots where
the candidate was circled or checked etc.( the machine didn't count these),
a pencil was used (again the machine didn't count these), other unique
issues.

All absentee ballot rejections will be reviewed, also. The biggest
opportunity for debate here is the rule of matching signature on the ballot
envelope and the ballot application. We rejected a couple ballots for this
at our precinct. What is considered a match is open to debate.

Anyway, long story short. The election is totally up in the air in MN. The
Senate stands at 58 dems right now, could easily go to 59. 60 is the magic
number where we're all in trouble. (Political opinion, there's nothing worse
than one party having all the power - you need a check and balance here)

I'm told there will be lawyers and other observers from both parties
watching our every move, should be fun.

Karl




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Old November 19th 08, 02:45 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default recount votes tommrrow

This sounds like fun Karl, let us know. Take some pictures maybe also
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Old November 19th 08, 05:04 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default recount votes tommrrow


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
You may have heard the senate race in MN is 200 votes from a
tie...I'll be part of the hand recount tomorrow.

After 2000, the Feds handed out a lot of money for voting equipment
upgrade. Nearly all (I think all but can't be certain) upgraded to a
ballot on heavy paper where you fill in the dot for your vote. At the
ballot box, a machine tallies your vote secretly and informs you if
there are over votes (too many candidate for one office) or under
votes (offices that weren't voted.

This system was supposed to be idiot proof but, of course, they just
built a better idiot.

First, the ballot machine beeps on an over or under vote. Almost
without exception, the voter tells the ballot judge to accept anyway.
This is where the idiots get their chance.

On hand inspection, I'm sure ballots will be found where the voter has
erased or crossed out one candidate and voted for the other, ballots
where the candidate was circled or checked etc.( the machine didn't
count these), a pencil was used (again the machine didn't count
these), other unique issues.

All absentee ballot rejections will be reviewed, also. The biggest
opportunity for debate here is the rule of matching signature on the
ballot envelope and the ballot application. We rejected a couple
ballots for this at our precinct. What is considered a match is open
to debate.

Anyway, long story short. The election is totally up in the air in MN.
The Senate stands at 58 dems right now, could easily go to 59. 60 is
the magic number where we're all in trouble. (Political opinion,
there's nothing worse than one party having all the power - you need a
check and balance here)

I'm told there will be lawyers and other observers from both parties
watching our every move, should be fun.

Karl



If Al Franken wins, CSPAN will be more entertaining :-)



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Old November 19th 08, 05:58 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 762
Default recount votes tommrrow

MN law mandates a manual recount for elections with less than .5%
difference. Two of my co workers are election judges, (one is a head
judge in a precinct)they tell me that the optical scan system is pretty
good, the manual recount is is pretty clear, and that some of the voters
are pretty clueless. eg One little old lady spoiled 4 ballets before she
got one that didn't have her voting for both candidates in one office.

Karl Townsend wrote:
You may have heard the senate race in MN is 200 votes from a tie...I'll be
part of the hand recount tomorrow.

After 2000, the Feds handed out a lot of money for voting equipment upgrade.
Nearly all (I think all but can't be certain) upgraded to a ballot on heavy
paper where you fill in the dot for your vote. At the ballot box, a machine
tallies your vote secretly and informs you if there are over votes (too many
candidate for one office) or under votes (offices that weren't voted.

This system was supposed to be idiot proof but, of course, they just built a
better idiot.

First, the ballot machine beeps on an over or under vote. Almost without
exception, the voter tells the ballot judge to accept anyway. This is where
the idiots get their chance.

On hand inspection, I'm sure ballots will be found where the voter has
erased or crossed out one candidate and voted for the other, ballots where
the candidate was circled or checked etc.( the machine didn't count these),
a pencil was used (again the machine didn't count these), other unique
issues.

All absentee ballot rejections will be reviewed, also. The biggest
opportunity for debate here is the rule of matching signature on the ballot
envelope and the ballot application. We rejected a couple ballots for this
at our precinct. What is considered a match is open to debate.

Anyway, long story short. The election is totally up in the air in MN. The
Senate stands at 58 dems right now, could easily go to 59. 60 is the magic
number where we're all in trouble. (Political opinion, there's nothing worse
than one party having all the power - you need a check and balance here)

I'm told there will be lawyers and other observers from both parties
watching our every move, should be fun.

Karl



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Old November 19th 08, 06:44 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 733
Default recount votes tommrrow

Ok, we top post for a while...

Our ballots were completely electronic - touch screen type system.

The people running the show had hand held devices to enable the
ballot. I wondered if they kept data in the hand held or just enabled
the machines.

How on earth would they do a manual recount???



Richard


RoyJ wrote:
MN law mandates a manual recount for elections with less than .5%
difference. Two of my co workers are election judges, (one is a head
judge in a precinct)they tell me that the optical scan system is pretty
good, the manual recount is is pretty clear, and that some of the voters
are pretty clueless. eg One little old lady spoiled 4 ballets before she
got one that didn't have her voting for both candidates in one office.

Karl Townsend wrote:

You may have heard the senate race in MN is 200 votes from a
tie...I'll be part of the hand recount tomorrow.

After 2000, the Feds handed out a lot of money for voting equipment
upgrade. Nearly all (I think all but can't be certain) upgraded to a
ballot on heavy paper where you fill in the dot for your vote. At the
ballot box, a machine tallies your vote secretly and informs you if
there are over votes (too many candidate for one office) or under
votes (offices that weren't voted.

This system was supposed to be idiot proof but, of course, they just
built a better idiot.

First, the ballot machine beeps on an over or under vote. Almost
without exception, the voter tells the ballot judge to accept anyway.
This is where the idiots get their chance.

On hand inspection, I'm sure ballots will be found where the voter has
erased or crossed out one candidate and voted for the other, ballots
where the candidate was circled or checked etc.( the machine didn't
count these), a pencil was used (again the machine didn't count
these), other unique issues.

All absentee ballot rejections will be reviewed, also. The biggest
opportunity for debate here is the rule of matching signature on the
ballot envelope and the ballot application. We rejected a couple
ballots for this at our precinct. What is considered a match is open
to debate.

Anyway, long story short. The election is totally up in the air in MN.
The Senate stands at 58 dems right now, could easily go to 59. 60 is
the magic number where we're all in trouble. (Political opinion,
there's nothing worse than one party having all the power - you need a
check and balance here)

I'm told there will be lawyers and other observers from both parties
watching our every move, should be fun.

Karl





--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


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Old November 19th 08, 07:03 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 762
Default recount votes tommrrow

You bring up a major point about the electronic systems.

The optical scan ballots are fed into the machine, the ballet is checked
for errors on the fly (rejected if necessary), and the votes are
tabulated by the machine. The ballot drops into the bottom of the machine.

Absentee ballets are processed either late in the day (if things are
quiet) or after the polls close. Each ballot is opened, verified on the
standard register, then processed through the regular scanner. If you
vote absentee, then change your mind, you vote normally, the absentee
ballot is not used.

At the end of the day, the electronic totals are electronically (cell
phone technology) to the county headquarters for the election night
coverage. The totals are printed out for the canvasing board to certify
a few days later. The actual ballots (around 1500 or so depending on
precinct) are boxed up under seal and stored in a secured warehouse.

The state mandates a quality check where some single digit percent of
the ballets stored in the warehouse are fed through a different scanner.
If the votes tally, all is good. If not, they start the process of
checking for the source of the error. It is quite normal for the vote to
vary by 1 or 2 votes, you should see how messy some of the ballets are.

The recount is done fully manually. A stack of ballets is in the middle,
candidate 1 ballets on the left, candidate 2 on the right. An observer
from both sides can stand behind a red line 3 feet away from the table
to challenge any ballet. Challenged ballets are placed in a third pile,
those go to a panel of senior judges (one is a state supreme court
judge) to decide.

I have to say, I think the system gives a clean paper trail for the
voter to inspect and reflect on before inserting into the scanner. It
provides an instant quality check on voter errors. It provides instant
election info at the end of the day. It handles absentee ballets
gracefully. It has quality audit procedures. It has good recount
procedures. And it is mandated in state law so most of the lawsuits
filed by both sides have pretty much been tossed out to let the actual
process proceed.



cavelamb himself wrote:
Ok, we top post for a while...

Our ballots were completely electronic - touch screen type system.

The people running the show had hand held devices to enable the
ballot. I wondered if they kept data in the hand held or just enabled
the machines.

How on earth would they do a manual recount???



Richard


RoyJ wrote:
MN law mandates a manual recount for elections with less than .5%
difference. Two of my co workers are election judges, (one is a head
judge in a precinct)they tell me that the optical scan system is
pretty good, the manual recount is is pretty clear, and that some of
the voters are pretty clueless. eg One little old lady spoiled 4
ballets before she got one that didn't have her voting for both
candidates in one office.

Karl Townsend wrote:

You may have heard the senate race in MN is 200 votes from a
tie...I'll be part of the hand recount tomorrow.

After 2000, the Feds handed out a lot of money for voting equipment
upgrade. Nearly all (I think all but can't be certain) upgraded to a
ballot on heavy paper where you fill in the dot for your vote. At the
ballot box, a machine tallies your vote secretly and informs you if
there are over votes (too many candidate for one office) or under
votes (offices that weren't voted.

This system was supposed to be idiot proof but, of course, they just
built a better idiot.

First, the ballot machine beeps on an over or under vote. Almost
without exception, the voter tells the ballot judge to accept anyway.
This is where the idiots get their chance.

On hand inspection, I'm sure ballots will be found where the voter
has erased or crossed out one candidate and voted for the other,
ballots where the candidate was circled or checked etc.( the machine
didn't count these), a pencil was used (again the machine didn't
count these), other unique issues.

All absentee ballot rejections will be reviewed, also. The biggest
opportunity for debate here is the rule of matching signature on the
ballot envelope and the ballot application. We rejected a couple
ballots for this at our precinct. What is considered a match is open
to debate.

Anyway, long story short. The election is totally up in the air in
MN. The Senate stands at 58 dems right now, could easily go to 59. 60
is the magic number where we're all in trouble. (Political opinion,
there's nothing worse than one party having all the power - you need
a check and balance here)

I'm told there will be lawyers and other observers from both parties
watching our every move, should be fun.

Karl





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Old November 19th 08, 07:19 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 1,210
Default recount votes tommrrow

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:04:34 -0800, "ff" wrote:


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
tanews.com...
You may have heard the senate race in MN is 200 votes from a
tie...I'll be part of the hand recount tomorrow.

After 2000, the Feds handed out a lot of money for voting equipment
upgrade. Nearly all (I think all but can't be certain) upgraded to a
ballot on heavy paper where you fill in the dot for your vote. At the
ballot box, a machine tallies your vote secretly and informs you if
there are over votes (too many candidate for one office) or under
votes (offices that weren't voted.

This system was supposed to be idiot proof but, of course, they just
built a better idiot.

First, the ballot machine beeps on an over or under vote. Almost
without exception, the voter tells the ballot judge to accept anyway.
This is where the idiots get their chance.

On hand inspection, I'm sure ballots will be found where the voter has
erased or crossed out one candidate and voted for the other, ballots
where the candidate was circled or checked etc.( the machine didn't
count these), a pencil was used (again the machine didn't count
these), other unique issues.

All absentee ballot rejections will be reviewed, also. The biggest
opportunity for debate here is the rule of matching signature on the
ballot envelope and the ballot application. We rejected a couple
ballots for this at our precinct. What is considered a match is open
to debate.

Anyway, long story short. The election is totally up in the air in MN.
The Senate stands at 58 dems right now, could easily go to 59. 60 is
the magic number where we're all in trouble. (Political opinion,
there's nothing worse than one party having all the power - you need a
check and balance here)

I'm told there will be lawyers and other observers from both parties
watching our every move, should be fun.

Karl



If Al Franken wins, CSPAN will be more entertaining :-)


If Franken wins, Im moving to California, where the fruits nuts and
flakes are already in office.

Gunner
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Old November 19th 08, 08:42 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 26
Default recount votes tommrrow

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:19:45 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:04:34 -0800, "ff" wrote:
"Karl Townsend" wrote...


You may have heard the senate race in MN is 200 votes from a
tie...I'll be part of the hand recount tomorrow.

After 2000, the Feds handed out a lot of money for voting equipment
upgrade. Nearly all (I think all but can't be certain) upgraded to a
ballot on heavy paper where you fill in the dot for your vote. At the
ballot box, a machine tallies your vote secretly and informs you if
there are over votes (too many candidate for one office) or under
votes (offices that weren't voted.

This system was supposed to be idiot proof but, of course, they just
built a better idiot.


Does the name InkaVote sound familiar? We had the exact same thing
in the "Hanging Chad" variant for decades, it's based on the old IBM
Punchcard form factor.

First, the ballot machine beeps on an over or under vote. Almost
without exception, the voter tells the ballot judge to accept anyway.
This is where the idiots get their chance.

On hand inspection, I'm sure ballots will be found where the voter has
erased or crossed out one candidate and voted for the other, ballots
where the candidate was circled or checked etc.( the machine didn't
count these), a pencil was used (again the machine didn't count
these), other unique issues.

All absentee ballot rejections will be reviewed, also. The biggest
opportunity for debate here is the rule of matching signature on the
ballot envelope and the ballot application. We rejected a couple
ballots for this at our precinct. What is considered a match is open
to debate.

Anyway, long story short. The election is totally up in the air in MN.
The Senate stands at 58 dems right now, could easily go to 59. 60 is
the magic number where we're all in trouble. (Political opinion,
there's nothing worse than one party having all the power - you need a
check and balance here)


And they'll just keep counting till they get the answer they want.

If Al Franken wins, CSPAN will be more entertaining :-)


No it won't. The Mainstream Media will soft-pedal the stupidities
on the left as they have done for decades. The only time Obama got
any bad press was when that producer was pulling for Hillary, Period

They'll edit out all the gaffes that they don't want the public to
find out about, just like we never learned Franklin Roosevelt was
confined to a wheelchair by Polio before and during his presidency -
the press agreed to downplay and hide the facts as to how bad it
really was. They simply never took a wide shot, and waited till he
was walked to the lectern with locked leg braces for speeches....

And anyone that did get a picture of FDR in a wheelchair or being
assisted had the negatives destroyed by the Secret Service.

Did I mention NY Central Rwy Track 61? This is the "Secret Train
Station" under the Waldorf-Astoria in New York City, with the freight
elevator to take FDR, already seated in his car, from the train
station to the Hotel parking garage and a drive-out exit, or straight
up to his hotel suite?

Our current sterling example of the press actively burying bad news
to Dems is Rep, Maxine Waters telling the CEO's of major US oil
companies she wants to nationalize them and keep the profits. Betcha
Katie Couric didn't give that fifteen seconds on the Six O'Clock.

And I'll bet that the Liberal Nightly News isn't going to mention a
word about the fact that our proposed new Attorney General is the same
person who pushed through the Mark Rich pardon (and dozens of other
equally odious ones) on the last day of the Clinton administration.

If Franken wins, Im moving to California, where the fruits nuts and
flakes are already in office.

Gunner


Umm, I hate to break it to you Old Man, but you might want to take a
closer look at your drivers license and such.

About the only hope would be to split the state, and send all the
real wackos off to San Francisco - send Tony Villar off to live with
Gavin Newsom, the rocks in Antonio's head fit the holes in Gavin's.

We'll have to make isolation zones drawn around Hollywood, Culver
City and Universal City (all the major studio lots) to create a
"Liberal DMZ", since they can't move the good weather to Frisco.

(Yeah, I called it Frisco. Deal with it, you pansies.)

-- Bruce -- a Los Angeles Native, but I'm getting better.
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Old November 19th 08, 09:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 1,148
Default recount votes tommrrow

cavelamb himself wrote:
Ok, we top post for a while...

Our ballots were completely electronic - touch screen type system.

The people running the show had hand held devices to enable the
ballot. I wondered if they kept data in the hand held or just enabled
the machines.

How on earth would they do a manual recount???

We had both touch screen and mark-sense ballots here in Mo. Our touch
screen units have a paper roll record that is printed both in
human-readable form and also a 2D bar code that presumably can be read
quickly by some machine. If you need to recount, you can scan the paper
rolls. The voter can see the paper roll recording the human-readable
part as he is voting to verify the right stuff is written down. I guess
they can spot check that the human-readable part corresponds to the bar
codes by sampling.

Jon
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Old November 19th 08, 11:15 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 4,562
Default recount votes tommrrow

"Karl Townsend" wrote:

You may have heard the senate race in MN is 200 votes from a tie...I'll be
part of the hand recount tomorrow.


Hard not to hear about that one. Fairly odd that the votes margin keeps going one way
only.


After 2000, the Feds handed out a lot of money for voting equipment upgrade.
Nearly all (I think all but can't be certain) upgraded to a ballot on heavy
paper where you fill in the dot for your vote. At the ballot box, a machine
tallies your vote secretly and informs you if there are over votes (too many
candidate for one office) or under votes (offices that weren't voted.


Ours is similar but you draw a line between two markers to connect them. Dot doesn't seem
very definite.

This system was supposed to be idiot proof but, of course, they just built a
better idiot.


Idiots are very creative.

First, the ballot machine beeps on an over or under vote. Almost without
exception, the voter tells the ballot judge to accept anyway. This is where
the idiots get their chance.


I've been tempted to test ours on a race that doesn't matter. Just to check.


On hand inspection, I'm sure ballots will be found where the voter has
erased or crossed out one candidate and voted for the other, ballots where
the candidate was circled or checked etc.( the machine didn't count these),
a pencil was used (again the machine didn't count these), other unique
issues.



Oh I would protest. If the ballot showed signs of crossing out, the voter should have
requested a new ballot. If you have one with crossed out choices then you either a) have
an idiot voter or b) have potential fraud. Cause to reject.



All absentee ballot rejections will be reviewed, also. The biggest
opportunity for debate here is the rule of matching signature on the ballot
envelope and the ballot application. We rejected a couple ballots for this
at our precinct. What is considered a match is open to debate.


That one is hard, I have at least two signatures I use depending on what it is and how
many forms I need to sign. Way open to debate. I think absentee ballots are the most
likely place for fraud to take place.

Anyway, long story short. The election is totally up in the air in MN. The
Senate stands at 58 dems right now, could easily go to 59. 60 is the magic
number where we're all in trouble. (Political opinion, there's nothing worse
than one party having all the power - you need a check and balance here)


For sure. I like divided government with my guys in the top two thirds.

I'm told there will be lawyers and other observers from both parties
watching our every move, should be fun.


Don't let them touch anything. Nothing, hands off. They want to see, you hold it, lay it
down, and you orient it for them. First one to touch, toss them out. There are rules.

Thank you for your service,

Wes


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