Christopher Tidy wrote:

Thanks. That's interesting. I wonder if Apple still follow your procedure?

I doubt it. It was very useful when one wanted an instrumented notebook to be
cosmetically very similar to an un-instrumented unit or when a notebook *had* to
be reassembled properly after inspection. That was admittedly somewhat rare.

However, it gave me confidence to know that I *could* restore the notebook
to nearly 'as manufactured' status if I needed to. Without some record of
where all the fasteners went, that would have been impossible.

Doubtlessly they are still using a zero-cost technique I gave them for greatly
improving the reliability of a wiring harness used in every notebook, however.

--Winston

Christopher Tidy wrote:

I know this is coming rather late in the thread, but can anyone think of
specific examples of older products that were junk?

Many thanks,

Chris

1980 Chevrolet El Camino

1) Never idled properly as manufactured.

2) Rumor had it that you had to disconnect the 'smog' computer to
get it to run smoothly. Then mileage suffered (14 MPG!)

3) Transmission meltdown at ~45,000 mi.

Many other minor glitches and gotchas.

--Winston

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:11:21 -0500, the infamous "Martin H. Eastburn"
scrolled the following:

There was or still is a stretch of very high tension power lines in New Jersey
that handled 1 Million volts. It was a sight as we drove under them to visit
Dad at Bell Labs.

Near the end of a long trip and wondering what the heck. The area near the
lines were bare of all living plants. Not any grass. The High voltage
produced long lines of purple light about each of the three phases.

It was a test line being tested in the field. Thought of the national grid...

Think how much gasoline that would save, with all those self-mowing
utility median strips! The national grid is at 2/3 that power
now, isn't it? Hmm, Wiki lists more. Quebec has a 735kV lineset.
Brazil has the highest DC, 600kV HVDC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri...r_transmission

Russia has a 1,150kV AC line for 268 miles, the highest ever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerli...stuz-Kokshetau


Electric field will excite gas - simply by adding energy to an electron - it
raising in a new quanta shell for a while and then when least expected
(uncertainly principle) fall from this elevated shell and return to the normal
level, giving off a frequency of light proportional to that of the change in
radius. Nitrogen is purplish. Neon is orangish and is busted to red-orange
by other chemicals.

Beautiful, I'll bet. I wonder what color glow Eki produces...


The whole issue is to add energy to the atom within. RF or Heat or AF.

Ayup, I believe they achieved that.

--
Once we believe in ourselves, we can risk curiosity, wonder, spontaneous
delight, or any experience that reveals the human spirit.
--e e cummings

Winston wrote:

Doubtlessly they are still using a zero-cost technique I gave them for
greatly
improving the reliability of a wiring harness used in every notebook,
however.

That sounds interesting. Is it a trade secret?

Best wishes,

Chris

Winston wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

I know this is coming rather late in the thread, but can anyone think
of specific examples of older products that were junk?

Many thanks,

Chris

1980 Chevrolet El Camino

1) Never idled properly as manufactured.

2) Rumor had it that you had to disconnect the 'smog' computer to
get it to run smoothly. Then mileage suffered (14 MPG!)

3) Transmission meltdown at ~45,000 mi.

Many other minor glitches and gotchas.

Oh yes, the truck Gene Hackman drives in the film Enemy Of The State?
Cool looking truck, even if it was unreliable.

Actually, I was thinking of products from the '50s or earlier, if anyone
can remember?

Best wishes,

Chris

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Winston wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

I know this is coming rather late in the thread, but can anyone think of
specific examples of older products that were junk?

Many thanks,

Chris

1980 Chevrolet El Camino

1) Never idled properly as manufactured.

2) Rumor had it that you had to disconnect the 'smog' computer to
get it to run smoothly. Then mileage suffered (14 MPG!)

3) Transmission meltdown at ~45,000 mi.

Many other minor glitches and gotchas.

Oh yes, the truck Gene Hackman drives in the film Enemy Of The State? Cool
looking truck, even if it was unreliable.

Actually, I was thinking of products from the '50s or earlier, if anyone
can remember?


Eh, eh. ...well, sonny...let's see here, by cracky...scratch, scratch,
spit...

Well, there were Bache Browne spinning reels. They were very expensive
(early reels of the type) but they had thin line fingers made of stainless
that would wear completely through in a couple of years of heavy use. Bad
design, not thought through.

There were Mitchell-Garcia spinning reels (see what I was doing in the '50s?
g). The big ones were not cheap. They had copper teeth on their drags that
would strip off when you hooked a big fish. I wound up bringing in a
27-pound king mackerel hand-over-hand. Bad design, thoughtless use of
materials.

There were Winchester single-barrel shotguns. I went through two of them in
two weeks. Their barrels were brass-brazed, badly, onto the locking lugs.
They'd break off when you shot them, with the barrel then landing on the
ground. ****-poor process and quality control.

Stainless kitchen cutlery from the 50s -- even the expensive stuff. It was
made of 18-8 (300 Series) steel, which is too soft to hold an edge. Poor
choice, or availability, of materials.

All of the little bellcranks on a piano I owned. Expensive piano, crappy
plastic. Every one of the bellcranks cracked once they deplasticized. Poor
material choice.

Most portable typewriters -- especially Italian Olivettis. Beautiful design,
but complete crap. As my repairman said, they were made of "frozen ****."

Radiators for most American Motors (Rambler) cars. They leaked when new.

Jeez, I'm glad I got all that off my chest...g

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
Radiators for most American Motors (Rambler) cars. They leaked when new.

Burned into my brain is the 1970's-era sight of brand new Harley Davidson's
sitting in a gleaming showroom...with a drip pan under each bike to protect the
floor from the drizzling oil.

Vaughn

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
Radiators for most American Motors (Rambler) cars. They leaked when new.

Burned into my brain is the 1970's-era sight of brand new Harley
Davidson's sitting in a gleaming showroom...with a drip pan under each
bike to protect the floor from the drizzling oil.

Vaughn

Oh, yeah. I'm not a Harley guy but the reputation is that they went through
some real quality problems in the '60s and '70s.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sep 22, 2:10*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



Eh, eh. ...well, sonny...let's see here, by cracky...scratch, scratch,
spit...

Stainless kitchen cutlery from the 50s -- even the expensive stuff. It was
made of 18-8 (300 Series) steel, which is too soft to hold an edge. Poor
choice, or availability, of materials.


Ed Huntress

If I recall correctly Robelson found that cryogenic treatment of
stainless improved the hardness and edge holding. I just can not
remember when, but think it was in the 50's. So that might have been
400 series stainless before the heat treatment was refined.

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Sep 22, 2:10 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



Eh, eh. ...well, sonny...let's see here, by cracky...scratch, scratch,
spit...

Stainless kitchen cutlery from the 50s -- even the expensive stuff. It was
made of 18-8 (300 Series) steel, which is too soft to hold an edge. Poor
choice, or availability, of materials.


Ed Huntress

If I recall correctly Robelson found that cryogenic treatment of
stainless improved the hardness and edge holding. I just can not
remember when, but think it was in the 50's. So that might have been
400 series stainless before the heat treatment was refined.

Dan

Actually, 400 is a different series of alloys, which form martensite when
heat-treated, like ordinary hardening steels. 300 Series remains austenitic
even if you heat and quench it, and it never attains the hardness of
martensitic steels.

You can work-harden 300 Series somewhat, and there are some other tricks.
But you won't get hardness from it in the Rockwell C 60+ category, as you
can with 400 Series (440, etc.).

--
Ed Huntress

On Sep 22, 6:04*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:






Robelson found that cryogenic treatment of
stainless improved the hardness and edge holding. *I just can not
remember when, but think it was in the 50's. *So that might have been
400 series stainless before the heat treatment was refined.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

Actually, 400 is a different series of alloys, which form martensite when
heat-treated, like ordinary hardening steels. 300 Series remains austenitic
even if you heat and quench it, and it never attains the hardness of
martensitic steels.

You can work-harden 300 Series somewhat, and there are some other tricks.
But you won't get hardness from it in the Rockwell C 60+ category, as you
can with 400 Series (440, etc.).


My understanding is that 400 series stainless was used for knives with
a heat treat of heat and quench. But the results were not very good
until the quench was followed by a cryogenic soak which caused more
marstenite to be formed.

I was hoping that you knew when cryogenic soaking started to be
used.
--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...
On Sep 22, 6:04 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:






Robelson found that cryogenic treatment of
stainless improved the hardness and edge holding. I just can not
remember when, but think it was in the 50's. So that might have been
400 series stainless before the heat treatment was refined.

Dan

Actually, 400 is a different series of alloys, which form martensite when
heat-treated, like ordinary hardening steels. 300 Series remains
austenitic
even if you heat and quench it, and it never attains the hardness of
martensitic steels.

You can work-harden 300 Series somewhat, and there are some other tricks.
But you won't get hardness from it in the Rockwell C 60+ category, as you
can with 400 Series (440, etc.).


My understanding is that 400 series stainless was used for knives with
a heat treat of heat and quench. But the results were not very good
until the quench was followed by a cryogenic soak which caused more
marstenite to be formed.

I was hoping that you knew when cryogenic soaking started to be
used.

Cryo treatment for tool steels goes back to the 1950s, or maybe earlier. I
don't know when they started to use it for stainless.

What cryo treatment does is to convert residual ("retained") austenite to
martensite. Variations in alloys and heat treatment can leave the conversion
incomplete in spots, particularly in high-alloy steels. Chilling it to low
temperatures causes the remaining austenite to convert -- assuming it was
properly quenched in the first place. I don't know about 400 Series
stainless but it seems likely it's in the category of steels that tend to
retain some austenite without the cryo treatment.

Cryo treatment will not compensate for poor heat treatment. The austenite
that's to be converted already must be "ready" to convert. That means that
it was properly heated and quenched, but, for some reason, the austenite did
not spontaneously convert to the martensitic grain structure. If the steel
was quenched too slowly the austenite converts back to ferrite at room
temperature, and that will not convert to martensite.

Here's a description that looks fairly good. Be wary of excessive claims for
cryogenic treatment. It works, but sometimes the advocates go overboard with
the claims:

http://www.cryogen.com.au/Cryogenic_Processing.htm

--
Ed Huntress

Christopher Tidy wrote:

Winston wrote:

Doubtlessly they are still using a zero-cost technique I gave them for
greatly
improving the reliability of a wiring harness used in every notebook,
however.


That sounds interesting. Is it a trade secret?

Probably. At the risk of sounding cheezy, I'm still under NDA so
I can't talk about it. I could tell that my boss was upset he
didn't think of it first, though.

--Winston

Christopher Tidy wrote:

No problem. I understand. If I ever find a broken Apple laptop, I might
pull it apart out of curiousity and find out for myself :-).

A *broken* Apple laptop?
How could that be? (BG)

--Winston

Ed Huntress wrote:

Actually, I was thinking of products from the '50s or earlier, if anyone
can remember?



Eh, eh. ...well, sonny...let's see here, by cracky...scratch, scratch,
spit...

Well, there were Bache Browne spinning reels. They were very expensive
(early reels of the type) but they had thin line fingers made of stainless
that would wear completely through in a couple of years of heavy use. Bad
design, not thought through.

Reminds me of a design Nikon had for potentiometers in some of their pro
cameras. Eventually they fixed it, but oddly enough, not on the most
expensive model at the time.

There were Mitchell-Garcia spinning reels (see what I was doing in the '50s?
g). The big ones were not cheap. They had copper teeth on their drags that
would strip off when you hooked a big fish. I wound up bringing in a
27-pound king mackerel hand-over-hand. Bad design, thoughtless use of
materials.

There were Winchester single-barrel shotguns. I went through two of them in
two weeks. Their barrels were brass-brazed, badly, onto the locking lugs.
They'd break off when you shot them, with the barrel then landing on the
ground. ****-poor process and quality control.

Does the barrel travel through your face before landing on the ground? :-)

Stainless kitchen cutlery from the 50s -- even the expensive stuff. It was
made of 18-8 (300 Series) steel, which is too soft to hold an edge. Poor
choice, or availability, of materials.

All of the little bellcranks on a piano I owned. Expensive piano, crappy
plastic. Every one of the bellcranks cracked once they deplasticized. Poor
material choice.

I wonder what process causes the change in the properties of the
plastic. Anyone know?

Most portable typewriters -- especially Italian Olivettis. Beautiful design,
but complete crap. As my repairman said, they were made of "frozen ****."

I remember a few of those. I think my parents might still have one.
Looked cool, in a lurid '60s kind of way

Radiators for most American Motors (Rambler) cars. They leaked when new.

Thanks, Ed. That's an interesting list.

Best wishes,

Chris

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

Radiators for most American Motors (Rambler) cars. They leaked when new.


Burned into my brain is the 1970's-era sight of brand new Harley Davidson's
sitting in a gleaming showroom...with a drip pan under each bike to protect the
floor from the drizzling oil.

Damn that sucks. No way I'd buy one of those new bikes with a drip tray
under it!

Best wishes,

Chris

Winston wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

Winston wrote:

Doubtlessly they are still using a zero-cost technique I gave them
for greatly
improving the reliability of a wiring harness used in every notebook,
however.



That sounds interesting. Is it a trade secret?


Probably. At the risk of sounding cheezy, I'm still under NDA so
I can't talk about it. I could tell that my boss was upset he
didn't think of it first, though.

No problem. I understand. If I ever find a broken Apple laptop, I might
pull it apart out of curiousity and find out for myself :-).

Best wishes,

Chris

wrote:
On Sep 22, 2:10 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



Eh, eh. ...well, sonny...let's see here, by cracky...scratch, scratch,
spit...


Stainless kitchen cutlery from the 50s -- even the expensive stuff. It was
made of 18-8 (300 Series) steel, which is too soft to hold an edge. Poor
choice, or availability, of materials.



Ed Huntress


If I recall correctly Robelson found that cryogenic treatment of
stainless improved the hardness and edge holding. I just can not
remember when, but think it was in the 50's. So that might have been
400 series stainless before the heat treatment was refined.

Is that essentially quenching starting at room temperature?

Best wishes,

Chris

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Damn that sucks. No way I'd buy one of those new bikes with a drip tray under
it!

For a whole, folks didn't!

It looked like Harley was going to die, but President Reagan's administration
gave them sort of a bailout in the form of stiff import tariffs for jap bikes.
That, along with some management changes, gave Harley a new lease on life.

After that, Harley somehow achieved the status of a sort of cultural icon,
and was seemingly able to sell everything they could push out the factory door.

Vaughn

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Actually, I was thinking of products from the '50s or earlier, if anyone
can remember?



Eh, eh. ...well, sonny...let's see here, by cracky...scratch, scratch,
spit...

Well, there were Bache Browne spinning reels. They were very expensive
(early reels of the type) but they had thin line fingers made of
stainless that would wear completely through in a couple of years of
heavy use. Bad design, not thought through.

Reminds me of a design Nikon had for potentiometers in some of their pro
cameras. Eventually they fixed it, but oddly enough, not on the most
expensive model at the time.

There were Mitchell-Garcia spinning reels (see what I was doing in the
'50s? g). The big ones were not cheap. They had copper teeth on their
drags that would strip off when you hooked a big fish. I wound up
bringing in a 27-pound king mackerel hand-over-hand. Bad design,
thoughtless use of materials.

There were Winchester single-barrel shotguns. I went through two of them
in two weeks. Their barrels were brass-brazed, badly, onto the locking
lugs. They'd break off when you shot them, with the barrel then landing
on the ground. ****-poor process and quality control.

Does the barrel travel through your face before landing on the ground? :-)

No, the design is pretty fail-safe. Like other break-action shotguns, the
barrel butts up against a solid vertical surface on the receiver. So when
the barrel breaks off of its lug it just falls off. I imagine it could shoot
forward from drag of the shot load and wads before the pressure is out of
the chamber and cause the shell to blow up in your face, but the inertia of
the barrel apparently was enough to keep it from moving that far, that
quickly. Both times I was standing at a concrete trap position -- a circular
pad about five feet in diameter -- and the barrel just landed on the
concrete. d8-( It scared the hell out of me, though.


Stainless kitchen cutlery from the 50s -- even the expensive stuff. It
was made of 18-8 (300 Series) steel, which is too soft to hold an edge.
Poor choice, or availability, of materials.

All of the little bellcranks on a piano I owned. Expensive piano, crappy
plastic. Every one of the bellcranks cracked once they deplasticized.
Poor material choice.

I wonder what process causes the change in the properties of the plastic.
Anyone know?

They often used excessive amounts of plasticizer back in the '50s and '60s,
to keep the plastic flexible. But the plasticizers were volatile. When they
dried out, the plastic shrunk (you've probably seen this on old plastic
parts of mechanisms) and became weak and brittle.


Most portable typewriters -- especially Italian Olivettis. Beautiful
design, but complete crap. As my repairman said, they were made of
"frozen ****."

I remember a few of those. I think my parents might still have one. Looked
cool, in a lurid '60s kind of way

Radiators for most American Motors (Rambler) cars. They leaked when new.

Thanks, Ed. That's an interesting list.

Best wishes,

Chris

I don't know - think of it this way...

a small drip from the bottom point will drip out the micro carbon chunks
that grind away on things. This was likely the early way before some
detergent oils were developed to keep them floating around and out of the
oil sump pump.

I have my air tank that way - sizzle a little and the water is let out.
It acts like a leak - but it is a useful leak.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Christopher Tidy wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

Radiators for most American Motors (Rambler) cars. They leaked when new.


Burned into my brain is the 1970's-era sight of brand new Harley
Davidson's sitting in a gleaming showroom...with a drip pan under each
bike to protect the floor from the drizzling oil.

Damn that sucks. No way I'd buy one of those new bikes with a drip tray
under it!

Best wishes,

Chris



----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Damn that sucks. No way I'd buy one of those new bikes with a drip tray
under it!

For a whole, folks didn't!

It looked like Harley was going to die, but President Reagan's
administration gave them sort of a bailout in the form of stiff import
tariffs for jap bikes. That, along with some management changes, gave
Harley a new lease on life.

After that, Harley somehow achieved the status of a sort of cultural
icon, and was seemingly able to sell everything they could push out the
factory door.

Vaughn


And my late friend Trev Deely, the Canadian distributor, helped finance the
buyout!

Steve R.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 23:31:35 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
Burned into my brain is the 1970's-era sight of brand new Harley Davidson's
sitting in a gleaming showroom...with a drip pan under each bike to protect the
floor from the drizzling oil.

Damn that sucks. No way I'd buy one of those new bikes with a drip tray
under it!

That's why their proper name is " Hardly Ever Run"

I like my '78 Suzuki farm bike, good fun & electric start. Cost me
$175 in '83, only replaced 1 chain & sprockets and several batteries.

Alan
Alan, in Gosnells, Western Oz.
VK6 YAB VKS 737 - W 6174

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:14:09 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Damn that sucks. No way I'd buy one of those new bikes with a drip tray under
it!

For a whole, folks didn't!

It looked like Harley was going to die, but President Reagan's administration
gave them sort of a bailout in the form of stiff import tariffs for jap bikes.
That, along with some management changes, gave Harley a new lease on life.

After that, Harley somehow achieved the status of a sort of cultural icon,
and was seemingly able to sell everything they could push out the factory door.

Vaughn

Never ever buy an AMF Harley..unless you are planning on doing a full
custom rebuild into something else.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:50:27 +0800, the infamous
scrolled the following:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 23:31:35 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
Burned into my brain is the 1970's-era sight of brand new Harley Davidson's
sitting in a gleaming showroom...with a drip pan under each bike to protect the
floor from the drizzling oil.

Damn that sucks. No way I'd buy one of those new bikes with a drip tray
under it!

That's why their proper name is " Hardly Ever Run"

I like my '78 Suzuki farm bike, good fun & electric start. Cost me
$175 in '83, only replaced 1 chain & sprockets and several batteries.

Not a hard bike to afford. But don't you sandgropers know to call
them by their proper name, "SuckSuzi", Alan?

--a former Kawasaki ("Cow") owner.

--
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen
to what the world tells you you ought to prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 06:27:24 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:50:27 +0800, the infamous
scrolled the following:

Not a hard bike to afford. But don't you sandgropers know to call
them by their proper name, "SuckSuzi", Alan?

--a former Kawasaki ("Cow") owner.

My first bike was a Triumph Thunderbird in '57

I also had a Yamahahahahahaaa and another Suzi PE for my sons

Alan
Alan, in Gosnells, Western Oz.
VK6 YAB VKS 737 - W 6174

On Sep 24, 8:05*pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
I wonder what process causes the change in the properties of the plastic.
Anyone know?

They often used excessive amounts of plasticizer back in the '50s and '60s,
to keep the plastic flexible. But the plasticizers were volatile. When they
dried out, the plastic shrunk (you've probably seen this on old plastic
parts of mechanisms) and became weak and brittle.

Do you know the names of any of those plastics and plasticisers? I'd be
interested to know.

Best wishes,

Chris

http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/DI/dibutyl_phthalate.html

Ed Huntress wrote:

I wonder what process causes the change in the properties of the plastic.
Anyone know?


They often used excessive amounts of plasticizer back in the '50s and '60s,
to keep the plastic flexible. But the plasticizers were volatile. When they
dried out, the plastic shrunk (you've probably seen this on old plastic
parts of mechanisms) and became weak and brittle.

Do you know the names of any of those plastics and plasticisers? I'd be
interested to know.

Best wishes,

Chris

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
I don't know - think of it this way...

a small drip from the bottom point will drip out the micro carbon chunks
that grind away on things. This was likely the early way before some
detergent oils were developed to keep them floating around and out of the
oil sump pump.

I have my air tank that way - sizzle a little and the water is let out.
It acts like a leak - but it is a useful leak.

I think this is debatable. The oil at the very bottom of the sump is
likely stagnant anyway, so contaminants there probably don't circulate
through the engine much. And if your bike leaks oil, the chances are
that at some point the oil level will get low. If it gets too low,
that'll wear out your engine a lot quicker than a few contaminants.
Lastly, it creates a mess everywhere, so I'm doubtful that Harley
Davidson created the leaks on purpose.

It's also my understanding that you shouldn't put modern oils with high
detergent and dispersant concentrations into older engines which only
have a gauze oil strainer. Those additives are meant to dissolve all the
contaminants and keep them in circulation until they can be removed by
one of those cartridge-type paper filters. If you don't have one of
those, anything small just stays in circulation and causes wear. Better
just to let it fall to the bottom of the sump.

Best wishes,

Chris

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

I wonder what process causes the change in the properties of the plastic.
Anyone know?


They often used excessive amounts of plasticizer back in the '50s and
'60s, to keep the plastic flexible. But the plasticizers were volatile.
When they dried out, the plastic shrunk (you've probably seen this on old
plastic parts of mechanisms) and became weak and brittle.

Do you know the names of any of those plastics and plasticisers? I'd be
interested to know.

Best wishes,

Chris

Nope. I was once a materials editor for a manufacturing magazine, but they
didn't bless me with a good memory.

--
Ed Huntress

I tend to agree, but when laying it over or driving around curves and bumps
the oil will be 'all shook up'. A user adds from the top and if they know
that every other day or once a week to add a can it seems to work for me.
I remember old cars a friend had that used 2 quarts a tankful. A car ready
for a ring job or bore.....

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Christopher Tidy wrote:
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
I don't know - think of it this way...

a small drip from the bottom point will drip out the micro carbon chunks
that grind away on things. This was likely the early way before some
detergent oils were developed to keep them floating around and out of the
oil sump pump.

I have my air tank that way - sizzle a little and the water is let out.
It acts like a leak - but it is a useful leak.

I think this is debatable. The oil at the very bottom of the sump is
likely stagnant anyway, so contaminants there probably don't circulate
through the engine much. And if your bike leaks oil, the chances are
that at some point the oil level will get low. If it gets too low,
that'll wear out your engine a lot quicker than a few contaminants.
Lastly, it creates a mess everywhere, so I'm doubtful that Harley
Davidson created the leaks on purpose.

It's also my understanding that you shouldn't put modern oils with high
detergent and dispersant concentrations into older engines which only
have a gauze oil strainer. Those additives are meant to dissolve all the
contaminants and keep them in circulation until they can be removed by
one of those cartridge-type paper filters. If you don't have one of
those, anything small just stays in circulation and causes wear. Better
just to let it fall to the bottom of the sump.

Best wishes,

Chris



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Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Sep 24, 8:05 pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

I wonder what process causes the change in the properties of the plastic.
Anyone know?

They often used excessive amounts of plasticizer back in the '50s and '60s,
to keep the plastic flexible. But the plasticizers were volatile. When they
dried out, the plastic shrunk (you've probably seen this on old plastic
parts of mechanisms) and became weak and brittle.

Do you know the names of any of those plastics and plasticisers? I'd be
interested to know.

Best wishes,

Chris


http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/DI/dibutyl_phthalate.html

Thanks for the link, Jim. That's interesting.

Best wishes,

Chris

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:


I wonder what process causes the change in the properties of the plastic.
Anyone know?


They often used excessive amounts of plasticizer back in the '50s and
'60s, to keep the plastic flexible. But the plasticizers were volatile.
When they dried out, the plastic shrunk (you've probably seen this on old
plastic parts of mechanisms) and became weak and brittle.

Do you know the names of any of those plastics and plasticisers? I'd be
interested to know.

Best wishes,

Chris


Nope. I was once a materials editor for a manufacturing magazine, but they
didn't bless me with a good memory.

No worries, Ed. Jim has provided me with a relevant link.

Thanks for all your interesting thoughts in this thread.

Best wishes,

Chris