It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed to
go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and Fannie
Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.

azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed to
go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and Fannie
Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed
to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

Everybody has money invested there, directly or not. They hold half of the
country's 12 trillion dollars in mortgage debt. They truly are too big to
fail. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about recession. We'd be in a
hell-bending depression that would knock down the world's economies like
dominoes.

The idea that we could let them fail and that some other "entity" would pop
up to take their place is a blissful pipe dream. Institutions like those two
depend absolutely on intelligent management; in this case, on anticipatory
regulations and requirements of capital to back the loans. It could have
been done, but that kind of regulation is antagonistic to the current
economic ideology -- which is to be happy, don't worry, let them run
themselves. Hah.

It's time to stop kidding ourselves and to face the fact that we've let
these enormous financial institutions -- including the big investment banks,
as well as these mortgage backers -- run rampant at the expense of our
entire economy. It is nuts; economists and smart financial people knew it
was nuts; but there was so much money being made that their voices were shut
up or shouted down. The party's over.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed
to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


Everybody has money invested there, directly or not. They hold half of the
country's 12 trillion dollars in mortgage debt. They truly are too big to
fail. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about recession. We'd be in a
hell-bending depression that would knock down the world's economies like
dominoes.

The idea that we could let them fail and that some other "entity" would pop
up to take their place is a blissful pipe dream. Institutions like those two
depend absolutely on intelligent management; in this case, on anticipatory
regulations and requirements of capital to back the loans. It could have
been done, but that kind of regulation is antagonistic to the current
economic ideology -- which is to be happy, don't worry, let them run
themselves. Hah.

It's time to stop kidding ourselves and to face the fact that we've let
these enormous financial institutions -- including the big investment banks,
as well as these mortgage backers -- run rampant at the expense of our
entire economy. It is nuts; economists and smart financial people knew it
was nuts; but there was so much money being made that their voices were shut
up or shouted down. The party's over.

--
Ed Huntress



You have to have a mortgage to have money invested in the mortgagee
companies.

It has certaintly been an interesting morning to read the news!

break

Ed,
Remember when they split up Ma Bell - because she was getting "too big".

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:53:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed to
go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and Fannie
Mae in the mortgage
market.

Best Regards
Tom.
===============

That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

===============
Every taxpayer has huge amounts "invested," in that they share
the losses but not the profits/bonuses. and every American
taxpayer will be making [much] more involvement shortly.

[Cue in popular C/W song "She got the gold mine and I got the
shaft..."]

At the same time the financial "masters of the universe" are
screaming for governmental GSE guarantees and bailouts, they are
not only dumping the GSE stock they own, but are selling short.

The credit default swaps are also coming home to roost, and the
banks and other financial institutions do not have the resources
required to "cover their bets" when (not if) a GSE and/or
Ford/GMC defaults. Again, it will be "take it in the shorts"
time for the taxpayers, as these dominos start to fall.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed
to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


Everybody has money invested there, directly or not. They hold half of
the country's 12 trillion dollars in mortgage debt. They truly are too
big to fail. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about recession. We'd be
in a hell-bending depression that would knock down the world's economies
like dominoes.

The idea that we could let them fail and that some other "entity" would
pop up to take their place is a blissful pipe dream. Institutions like
those two depend absolutely on intelligent management; in this case, on
anticipatory regulations and requirements of capital to back the loans.
It could have been done, but that kind of regulation is antagonistic to
the current economic ideology -- which is to be happy, don't worry, let
them run themselves. Hah.

It's time to stop kidding ourselves and to face the fact that we've let
these enormous financial institutions -- including the big investment
banks, as well as these mortgage backers -- run rampant at the expense of
our entire economy. It is nuts; economists and smart financial people
knew it was nuts; but there was so much money being made that their
voices were shut up or shouted down. The party's over.

--
Ed Huntress

You have to have a mortgage to have money invested in the mortgagee
companies.

There's hardly an economic activity in this country that isn't connected
somehow to the mortgages held by Fannie and Freddie. It affects your loan
rates at your bank, your ability to obtain credit, the price of gasoline at
the pump...it's all tied in, in terms of money supply, loan rates, and
liquidity.

So you may not gain or lose directly on their economic situation, but you're
affected by the fallout any which way you turn. Any institution that holds 6
trillion in debt leaves a big wake behind.


It has certaintly been an interesting morning to read the news!

break

Ed,
Remember when they split up Ma Bell - because she was getting "too big".

Yeah, and I was writing papers about that in my Economics of Media class,
while it was going on. My professor (Dr. Robert Babe) had written a paper --
his PhD dissertation, actually -- that was used as important evidence in the
government's case, so we were really into it.

The issue with Ma Bell wasn't its financial influence. It was the
stultification of technology and the rate manipulation that resulted from
the monopoly. That's an efficiency issue, not primarily a financial issue.

--
Ed Huntress

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:53:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.


http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Every taxpayer has huge amounts "invested," in that they share
the losses but not the profits/bonuses. and every American
taxpayer will be making [much] more involvement shortly.

Probably but the fat lady hasn't sung yet.


[Cue in popular C/W song "She got the gold mine and I got the
shaft..."]

At the same time the financial "masters of the universe" are
screaming for governmental GSE guarantees and bailouts, they are
not only dumping the GSE stock they own, but are selling short.

They saw Paulsen and that was OK.
What they didn't see was the guy who would have to fund what the
administration proposed for Freddie and Fannie, Barney Franks.
In other words, hoopla, a letter of intent, instead of a properly funded
offer.

Paulsen and Bush are trying to resurect the "Highly Confident" letter but
unlike Michael Milken, who had a tremendous run of success to point to, Bush
has all the credivibity his 8 year run of failure and mismanagement on the
table.

America has become thouroughly convinced that the lunatics are running the
assylum and good idea or no, it will take more that George W Bush at a press
conference to reclaim the public trust this administration has wantonly
destroyed.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Ed Huntress wrote:
"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.


http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

Everybody has money invested there, directly or not. They hold half

70 percent now Ed.
70 percent and climbing.

of the country's 12 trillion dollars in mortgage debt. They truly are
too big to fail. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about recession.
We'd be in a hell-bending depression that would knock down the
world's economies like dominoes.

The idea that we could let them fail and that some other "entity"
would pop up to take their place is a blissful pipe dream.

We could always "pop" a replacement up.
There isn't a single reason not to wipe out every dollar of shareholder
equity as a quid pro quo and I can think of several reasons to do exactly
that.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

cavelamb himself wrote:
azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.


http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the day after
either of these failed Richard.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.



http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the day after
either of these failed Richard.


Oh I know, John.
Just batting at the whiner.

Ya'll reboot your crysal balls and tell me this one...

What happens when the tax payers can't afford to pay the taxes
that are going to pile up from all this?


You see, I'm guessing that the system has already failed.

The bailout reactions are just that - reactions to prop up
a failed financial system. But for how long?

All they are really doing is transfering the bad paper from the
businesses that created it - to the tax payers - who don't want it.
(and probably can really afford it)

Gas and food prices up 12% (so far) - and still climbing.

How much will the avarage worker's tax load increase now?


Which brings us back to the stick of gum or loaf of bread...

On 2008-07-15, cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.



http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the day after
either of these failed Richard.

I do not see any evidence for this.

Some people or businesses who invested in mortgage backed securities
that are guaranteed by these companies, would be a little poorer
without those guarantees. And home loans will be slightly more
expensive, as they should be. But I do not see a big fallout from
Fannie mae and Freddie Mac going bankrupt.

i


Oh I know, John.
Just batting at the whiner.

Ya'll reboot your crysal balls and tell me this one...

What happens when the tax payers can't afford to pay the taxes
that are going to pile up from all this?


You see, I'm guessing that the system has already failed.

The bailout reactions are just that - reactions to prop up
a failed financial system. But for how long?

All they are really doing is transfering the bad paper from the
businesses that created it - to the tax payers - who don't want it.
(and probably can really afford it)

Gas and food prices up 12% (so far) - and still climbing.

How much will the avarage worker's tax load increase now?


Which brings us back to the stick of gum or loaf of bread...


--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.


http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

Everybody has money invested there, directly or not. They hold half

70 percent now Ed.
70 percent and climbing.

of the country's 12 trillion dollars in mortgage debt. They truly are
too big to fail. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about recession.
We'd be in a hell-bending depression that would knock down the
world's economies like dominoes.

The idea that we could let them fail and that some other "entity"
would pop up to take their place is a blissful pipe dream.

We could always "pop" a replacement up.
There isn't a single reason not to wipe out every dollar of shareholder
equity as a quid pro quo and I can think of several reasons to do exactly
that.

And then what do you do when a court tells F and F to liquidate some assets
to pay off the shareholders? And how about those people who are holding the
debt?

--
Ed Huntress

azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed to
go broke.
Yes, of course, there is some argument for that, but in reality,
nobody would be able to buy a house using a mortgage for, say,
two YEARS! Do you have any idea what would happen if nobody in
the entire COUNTRY could buy a house for two years?

It would make 1929 look like the "good times".

Jon

John R. Carroll wrote:
We could always "pop" a replacement up.
There isn't a single reason not to wipe out every dollar of shareholder
equity as a quid pro quo and I can think of several reasons to do exactly
that.



No, it would take congressional hearings that would go on for
MANY MANY months. Then, there would be departmental meetings
that would go on for many months. As an emergency crash
project, I think Washington could do it in 2 years, minimum.
Without it being a "war project" it would take 6.

By then, the US government would have moved to a teepee in Omaha!

Jon

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.



http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac
and Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

Everybody has money invested there, directly or not. They hold half

70 percent now Ed.
70 percent and climbing.

of the country's 12 trillion dollars in mortgage debt. They truly
are too big to fail. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about
recession. We'd be in a hell-bending depression that would knock
down the world's economies like dominoes.

The idea that we could let them fail and that some other "entity"
would pop up to take their place is a blissful pipe dream.

We could always "pop" a replacement up.
There isn't a single reason not to wipe out every dollar of
shareholder equity as a quid pro quo and I can think of several
reasons to do exactly that.

And then what do you do when a court tells F and F to liquidate some
assets to pay off the shareholders?

Never happen Ed. Show me any judge or Justice that will issue that order and
I'll show you a dead man, either figuratively or literally.

Put them (F and F) into recievership and kick out the equity - as rudely and
forcefully as possible- while simultaneously anouncing the "restructured"
company.
You only need look back a couple of months to see the pattern agreement.
One alternative is currently being tried on at IndyMac and the result is
going to be that there won't be anyone willing to buy the carcass that
results. Every dime of brokered money will be out in two weeks and that will
be that.

The object lesson, while painful, will serve a good purpose.
Washington Mutual won't try the same dullards approach when they take the
pipe in a couple of weeks.
All of there mortgages will end up at the 2bigs you know.

And how about those people who
are holding the debt?

Equity doesn't survive bankruptcy Ed but debt does and since there really is
underlying value, all of that debt will be just fine. In fact, some might be
converted to equity as part of the restructuring. Maybe bond holders would
get a coupon with their debt instrument as an incentive to sit down and shut
up.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Jon Elson wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
We could always "pop" a replacement up.
There isn't a single reason not to wipe out every dollar of
shareholder equity as a quid pro quo and I can think of several
reasons to do exactly that.



No, it would take congressional hearings that would go on for
MANY MANY months.

They have been Jon and for many months.
Bush needs to stop playing politics with this.
In any event, you won't see anything more than stop gaps until after the
election in November.
The sitting administration just doesn't have the street cred to pull
anything off at this point and noone on either side of the aisle is much
inclined to jump any farther than the minimum to stave off disaster.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.




http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac
and Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the day
after either of these failed Richard.

I do not see any evidence for this.

Some people or businesses who invested in mortgage backed securities
that are guaranteed by these companies, would be a little poorer
without those guarantees. And home loans will be slightly more
expensive, as they should be. But I do not see a big fallout from
Fannie mae and Freddie Mac going bankrupt.

Well Iggy, here's one.
The credit markets will evaporate and that will stop bussiness in it's
tracks.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.




http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards

Which brings us back to the stick of gum or loaf of bread...

Gum that you don't have the disposable income to buy and bread that you
won't interested. You will be out looking for flour, yeast and baking powder
Rich.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

John R. Carroll wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:


azotic wrote:


It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.




http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards

Which brings us back to the stick of gum or loaf of bread...


Gum that you don't have the disposable income to buy and bread that you
won't interested. You will be out looking for flour, yeast and baking powder
Rich.



And watching over your sholder for some jerk that wants to take it from you.

cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

John R. Carroll wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:


azotic wrote:


It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken
by sophisticated investors.





http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac
and Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards

Which brings us back to the stick of gum or loaf of bread...


Gum that you don't have the disposable income to buy and bread that
you won't interested. You will be out looking for flour, yeast and
baking powder Rich.



And watching over your sholder for some jerk that wants to take it
from you.

Maybe.
I think that what will be more likely is that we'll come together as a
nation.
That doesn't mean that there won't be sad sacks or jerks around but they
will be hard to miss.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Which brings us back to the stick of gum or loaf of bread...


Gum that you don't have the disposable income to buy and bread that
you won't interested. You will be out looking for flour, yeast and
baking powder Rich.



And watching over your sholder for some jerk that wants to take it
from you.


Maybe.
I think that what will be more likely is that we'll come together as a
nation.
That doesn't mean that there won't be sad sacks or jerks around but they
will be hard to miss.


I hope so, John.

We ran the movie "The Postman" the other night.

Feudalism - boy- THAT would sure suck!

R

On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.




http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac
and Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the day
after either of these failed Richard.

I do not see any evidence for this.

Some people or businesses who invested in mortgage backed securities
that are guaranteed by these companies, would be a little poorer
without those guarantees. And home loans will be slightly more
expensive, as they should be. But I do not see a big fallout from
Fannie mae and Freddie Mac going bankrupt.

Well Iggy, here's one.
The credit markets will evaporate and that will stop bussiness in it's
tracks.

Why is that so?

Freddie and Fannie are not lending to businesses. They were lending to
home buyers.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken
by sophisticated investors.





http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac
and Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the
day after either of these failed Richard.

I do not see any evidence for this.

Some people or businesses who invested in mortgage backed securities
that are guaranteed by these companies, would be a little poorer
without those guarantees. And home loans will be slightly more
expensive, as they should be. But I do not see a big fallout from
Fannie mae and Freddie Mac going bankrupt.

Well Iggy, here's one.
The credit markets will evaporate and that will stop bussiness in
it's tracks.

Why is that so?

Freddie and Fannie are not lending to businesses. They were lending to
home buyers.

They both get their money on the open market and if the market won't buy
their debt, it won't buy anyones.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

"azotic" wrote:

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed to
go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and Fannie
Mae in the mortgage
market.

You are dealing with a construction of government designed to achieve governments goals.
The same beast would arise again from the ashes after all involved suffer great pain. And
like always the little guy will be screwed the worse.

I think the effects of this would get us all a front row seat in the movie titled, "The
Great Depression". I'll wait until it comes to dvd

Wes

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.


http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed
to
go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie
Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

And the Great Depression was just a normal fluctuation in the free market.
No big deal.

Hawke

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to
go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie
Mae in the mortgage
market.

Best Regards
Tom.
===============

That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

===============
Every taxpayer has huge amounts "invested," in that they share
the losses but not the profits/bonuses. and every American
taxpayer will be making [much] more involvement shortly.

[Cue in popular C/W song "She got the gold mine and I got the
shaft..."]

At the same time the financial "masters of the universe" are
screaming for governmental GSE guarantees and bailouts, they are
not only dumping the GSE stock they own, but are selling short.

The credit default swaps are also coming home to roost, and the
banks and other financial institutions do not have the resources
required to "cover their bets" when (not if) a GSE and/or
Ford/GMC defaults. Again, it will be "take it in the shorts"
time for the taxpayers, as these dominos start to fall.


It's the same pattern every time the republicans get control of the
government. They take all the controls and regulation off business, business
runs rampant, markets take off, fraud and malfeasance go through the roof,
and a small group makes grotesque amounts of money. Then the markets crash,
the fraud and crime is exposed and the taxpayers are handed the bill for the
mess that is left over. I don't know why people never tire of this until
things have turned to ****. I guess no one that counts has any institutional
memory. The same thing happens every time government takes the regulations
off of business. They never learn.

Hawke

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:53:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.



http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Every taxpayer has huge amounts "invested," in that they share
the losses but not the profits/bonuses. and every American
taxpayer will be making [much] more involvement shortly.

Probably but the fat lady hasn't sung yet.


[Cue in popular C/W song "She got the gold mine and I got the
shaft..."]

At the same time the financial "masters of the universe" are
screaming for governmental GSE guarantees and bailouts, they are
not only dumping the GSE stock they own, but are selling short.

They saw Paulsen and that was OK.
What they didn't see was the guy who would have to fund what the
administration proposed for Freddie and Fannie, Barney Franks.
In other words, hoopla, a letter of intent, instead of a properly funded
offer.

Paulsen and Bush are trying to resurect the "Highly Confident" letter but
unlike Michael Milken, who had a tremendous run of success to point to,
Bush
has all the credivibity his 8 year run of failure and mismanagement on the
table.

America has become thouroughly convinced that the lunatics are running the
assylum and good idea or no, it will take more that George W Bush at a
press
conference to reclaim the public trust this administration has wantonly
destroyed.


At this point some right wing guys should jump in and start calling you some
names.


Hawke

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that cavelamb himself
wrote on Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:53:48 -0500 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be allowed to
go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and Fannie
Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.

That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

I suspect he has no money invested in stocks, or real estate. Or
any idea what secondary financial markets are, and why they are
important.

I suspect that he also has no idea what Fred & Fannie actually do.

Which is understandable, I knew a woman who didn't understand that
the 5% mortgage interest was an ongoing "rental" expense for the
balance of the mortgage, not a one time "charge".

--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

Hawke wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:53:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

azotic wrote:
It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.




http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

America has become thouroughly convinced that the lunatics are
running the assylum and good idea or no, it will take more that
George W Bush at a press conference to reclaim the public trust this
administration has wantonly destroyed.


At this point some right wing guys should jump in and start calling
you some names.

Just as long as they don't call me late for dinner.
I get positively grumpy if I don't eat.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken
by sophisticated investors.





http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac
and Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the
day after either of these failed Richard.

I do not see any evidence for this.

Some people or businesses who invested in mortgage backed securities
that are guaranteed by these companies, would be a little poorer
without those guarantees. And home loans will be slightly more
expensive, as they should be. But I do not see a big fallout from
Fannie mae and Freddie Mac going bankrupt.

Well Iggy, here's one.
The credit markets will evaporate and that will stop bussiness in
it's tracks.

Why is that so?

Freddie and Fannie are not lending to businesses. They were lending to
home buyers.

They both get their money on the open market and if the market won't buy
their debt, it won't buy anyones.


Their debt is already bought. It is in private hands.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks
taken by sophisticated investors.






http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should
be allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie
Mac and Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the
day after either of these failed Richard.

I do not see any evidence for this.

Some people or businesses who invested in mortgage backed
securities that are guaranteed by these companies, would be a
little poorer without those guarantees. And home loans will be
slightly more expensive, as they should be. But I do not see a
big fallout from Fannie mae and Freddie Mac going bankrupt.

Well Iggy, here's one.
The credit markets will evaporate and that will stop bussiness in
it's tracks.

Why is that so?

Freddie and Fannie are not lending to businesses. They were lending
to home buyers.

They both get their money on the open market and if the market won't
buy their debt, it won't buy anyones.


Their debt is already bought. It is in private hands.

LOL
They sold three billion dollars worth of debt on Monday.
They will use that money to buy mortgages from the original lenders and
brokers.
That's how the system works.
The only thing in private hands are the debt and equity that these guys
offer.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:10:26 -0700, "Hawke"
wrote:



Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be
allowed to
go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie Mac and
Fannie
Mae in the mortgage
market.

Best Regards
Tom.
===============

That's because _you_ have no money invested there...

===============
Every taxpayer has huge amounts "invested," in that they share
the losses but not the profits/bonuses. and every American
taxpayer will be making [much] more involvement shortly.

[Cue in popular C/W song "She got the gold mine and I got the
shaft..."]

At the same time the financial "masters of the universe" are
screaming for governmental GSE guarantees and bailouts, they are
not only dumping the GSE stock they own, but are selling short.

The credit default swaps are also coming home to roost, and the
banks and other financial institutions do not have the resources
required to "cover their bets" when (not if) a GSE and/or
Ford/GMC defaults. Again, it will be "take it in the shorts"
time for the taxpayers, as these dominos start to fall.


It's the same pattern every time the republicans get control of the
government. They take all the controls and regulation off business, business
runs rampant, markets take off, fraud and malfeasance go through the roof,
and a small group makes grotesque amounts of money. Then the markets crash,
the fraud and crime is exposed and the taxpayers are handed the bill for the
mess that is left over. I don't know why people never tire of this until
things have turned to ****. I guess no one that counts has any institutional
memory. The same thing happens every time government takes the regulations
off of business. They never learn.

Hawke

======
Humans are the oly animals you can skin more than once.....


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks
taken by sophisticated investors.






http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

Since we have a free market Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should
be allowed to go broke.
New entities will arrise to fill the vacume left by Freddie
Mac and Fannie Mae in the mortgage
market.


Best Regards
Tom.




That's because _you_ have no money invested there...


You wouldn't be able to buy a stick of gum or loaf of bread the
day after either of these failed Richard.

I do not see any evidence for this.

Some people or businesses who invested in mortgage backed
securities that are guaranteed by these companies, would be a
little poorer without those guarantees. And home loans will be
slightly more expensive, as they should be. But I do not see a
big fallout from Fannie mae and Freddie Mac going bankrupt.

Well Iggy, here's one.
The credit markets will evaporate and that will stop bussiness in
it's tracks.

Why is that so?

Freddie and Fannie are not lending to businesses. They were lending
to home buyers.

They both get their money on the open market and if the market won't
buy their debt, it won't buy anyones.


Their debt is already bought. It is in private hands.

LOL
They sold three billion dollars worth of debt on Monday.
They will use that money to buy mortgages from the original lenders and
brokers.
That's how the system works.
The only thing in private hands are the debt and equity that these guys
offer.



Yes, and brokers will sell debt through new means, vehicles etc.

Possibly these new means will require better capitalization of homes
and better returns (interest rates).

I do not see what the big deal is.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:02:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

Oh I know, John.
Just batting at the whiner.

Ya'll reboot your crysal balls and tell me this one...

What happens when the tax payers can't afford to pay the taxes
that are going to pile up from all this?
snip
===========
Start the high-speed printing presses at the Fed printing million
dollar bills?


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

John R. Carroll wrote:
Hawke wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

F. George McDuffee wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:53:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:


azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken by
sophisticated investors.



http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

America has become thouroughly convinced that the lunatics are
running the assylum and good idea or no, it will take more that
George W Bush at a press conference to reclaim the public trust this
administration has wantonly destroyed.


At this point some right wing guys should jump in and start calling
you some names.


Just as long as they don't call me late for dinner.
I get positively grumpy if I don't eat.




Class, John.
Pure class...

F. George McDuffee wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:02:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:


Oh I know, John.
Just batting at the whiner.

Ya'll reboot your crysal balls and tell me this one...

What happens when the tax payers can't afford to pay the taxes
that are going to pile up from all this?

snip
===========
Start the high-speed printing presses at the Fed printing million
dollar bills?



I haven't even seen a thousand dollar bill in ages.

I thought they were taken off the teble so drug dealers had to
use bigger suitcases to carry their money around.


But I did like the quote...


America has become thouroughly convinced that the lunatics are running
the assylum and good idea or no, it will take more that George W Bush at
a press conference to reclaim the public trust this administration has
wantonly destroyed.

Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, John R. Carroll jcarroll@ubu wrote:
Ignoramus19502 wrote:
On 2008-07-15, cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks
Yes, and brokers will sell debt through new means, vehicles etc.

You know reconditioning well Chudov but apparently not finance.
Brokers don't buy debt, they sell it and their payoff is the fee they
collect.


BTW, that comperssor recon. was beautiful.


Possibly these new means will require better capitalization of homes
and better returns (interest rates).

I do not see what the big deal is.

I'm certain at this point that you don't.
You will soon.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
Hawke wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

F. George McDuffee wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:53:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:


azotic wrote:

It appears the american taxpayer will subsidize the risks taken
by sophisticated investors.




http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080711

America has become thouroughly convinced that the lunatics are
running the assylum and good idea or no, it will take more that
George W Bush at a press conference to reclaim the public trust
this administration has wantonly destroyed.


At this point some right wing guys should jump in and start calling
you some names.


Just as long as they don't call me late for dinner.
I get positively grumpy if I don't eat.




Class, John.
Pure class...

Monday thru Friday at 7am.
ftp.machiningsolution.com/IMG_0023.JPG

Sunday is bacon and eggs.
ftp.machiningsolution.com/IMG_0267.JPG

and you haven't seen lunch or dinner.
LOL


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:40:58 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
it will take more that George W Bush at a press
conference to reclaim the public trust this administration has wantonly
destroyed.
snip
==========
If it were only this easy.

The "turkey buzzards" now circling and preparing to come home to
crash land [and poop] have been growing in size and quantity for
a number of years, although it can be argued that the current
administration did provide unusually large amounts of carrion and
offal to help them mature more rapidly than they would have
otherwise done. However in toto this was genuine bipartisan
effort.

"W" will be gone in a few months, his appointees will be replaced
and many of his policies will be reversed.

We will then discover that just as chopping the head off the
rooster does not prevent the sun from coming up, the economic
contraction and de leveraging, with all that this implies, will
continue.

The United States appears to have reached a "tipping point" in
several critical economic, social and economic areas. It should
be noted that many of these changes appear to have high
hysteresis in that once these "tip" or "snap over" into a
different state or value, it required considerable money,
extended time and intensive effort to change them back.

Of very considerable concern is the foundational role that cheap
energy, particularly for goods transportation has assumed
worldwide. This is the foundation for very large parts of not
only international but national (even regional) trade. Indeed,
suburban communities dependent on it's commuter residents may be
in particular trouble, as are the automobile companies. Offices
and factories in the larger urban areas may be unable to obtain
adequate staffing if neither suitable local housing nor
economical public mass transit is available for their required
workforce.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:03:26 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

So you may not gain or lose directly on their economic situation, but you're
affected by the fallout any which way you turn. Any institution that holds 6
trillion in debt leaves a big wake behind.
========
Freddie and Fannie hold or guarantee slightly over 1/2 of all of
all residential mortgages in the United States.

Everyone wishes it was *ONLY* a trillion. Per USA-Today the
*KNOWN* numbers are 5.2 Trillion $US in directly owned or
guaranteed mortgages.

Note there is most likely considerable additional obligations
that don't currently appear on their books because of the use of
SPEs, SIVs, conduits, and derivative liabilities. Unfortunately,
this will not be determined until a forensic audit occurs as part
of the criminal investigations that will ensure in the event of a
"reorganization."

Stockholders may well loose all their equity if these go into
receivership, but this is a separate, albeit related, issue from
the value of the underlying assets and collateralized debts,
depending on the side bets, aka CDS derivatives.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).