So someone and I were designing a base with casters for a cold saw.

The design was to have an angle iron piece to go underneath the
saw, to support the saw, extend outside the saw, then have standoffs
and a horizontal piece to hold the caster.


========= ==========
~~O~~ !!________________!! ~~O~~

The question was how to calculate what height of standoff we needed
("!!" on the diagram)

That was actually an algebra equation such as

1/2" ground clearance + 1/4" angle thickness + standoff height = 4"
caster height.

or 1/2 + 1/4 + X = 4

or

x + 3/4 = 4

or x = 3 1/4

The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

i
www.algebra.com

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Knowing trig will help you a lot more Iggy,

Understanding the power of a right triangle, and learning a few multipliers
derived from some common angles like the 30, 45 and 60 degrees will make you
look like a magician.

--.- Dave (Who's CFI is a math whizz too and makes me calc trig in my head
for course changes on the "fly" so to speak)


"Ignoramus27711" wrote in message
...
So someone and I were designing a base with casters for a cold saw.

The design was to have an angle iron piece to go underneath the
saw, to support the saw, extend outside the saw, then have standoffs
and a horizontal piece to hold the caster.


========= ==========
~~O~~ !!________________!! ~~O~~

The question was how to calculate what height of standoff we needed
("!!" on the diagram)

That was actually an algebra equation such as

1/2" ground clearance + 1/4" angle thickness + standoff height = 4"
caster height.

or 1/2 + 1/4 + X = 4

or

x + 3/4 = 4

or x = 3 1/4

The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

i
www.algebra.com

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their
inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On 2008-06-02, Dave August wrote:
Knowing trig will help you a lot more Iggy,

Understanding the power of a right triangle, and learning a few multipliers
derived from some common angles like the 30, 45 and 60 degrees will make you
look like a magician.

I totally agree with you.

i

Ignoramus27711 wrote:
So someone and I were designing a base with casters for a cold saw.

The design was to have an angle iron piece to go underneath the
saw, to support the saw, extend outside the saw, then have standoffs
and a horizontal piece to hold the caster.


========= ==========
~~O~~ !!________________!! ~~O~~

The question was how to calculate what height of standoff we needed
("!!" on the diagram)

That was actually an algebra equation such as

1/2" ground clearance + 1/4" angle thickness + standoff height = 4"
caster height.

or 1/2 + 1/4 + X = 4

or

x + 3/4 = 4

or x = 3 1/4

The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

i
www.algebra.com


I got asked recently to modify a fixed length piece of kit so it was
height adjustable, one piece sliding inside the other, and knew it was a
use for simultaneous equations to work out the part lengths. I drew the
item full height with all the parts and worked out the equations but had
to think about it for about 15 minutes as I hadn't had a need for them
in over 15 years. Shame since graduating with a Mech Eng degree and
going into software I have forgotten most of the engineering mathematics
I had learned.

On Jun 2, 12:45 pm, Ignoramus27711 ignoramus27...@NOSPAM.
27711.invalid wrote:
So someone and I were designing a base with casters for a cold saw.

The design was to have an angle iron piece to go underneath the
saw, to support the saw, extend outside the saw, then have standoffs
and a horizontal piece to hold the caster.

========= ==========
~~O~~ !!________________!! ~~O~~

The question was how to calculate what height of standoff we needed
("!!" on the diagram)

That was actually an algebra equation such as

1/2" ground clearance + 1/4" angle thickness + standoff height = 4"
caster height.

or 1/2 + 1/4 + X = 4

or

x + 3/4 = 4

or x = 3 1/4

The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

iwww.algebra.com

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/



You support Al-Gebra?

DHS/CIA need to be notified!

(not that you'll see this...)

Dave

"Ignoramus27711" wrote: (clip) That was actually an algebra equation (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Iggy, I hate to burst your bubble, but that problem can be solved with
(gasp) ARITHMETIC. :-)

b
"Ignoramus27711" wrote in message
...
So someone and I were designing a base with casters for a cold saw.

The design was to have an angle iron piece to go underneath the
saw, to support the saw, extend outside the saw, then have standoffs
and a horizontal piece to hold the caster.


========= ==========
~~O~~ !!________________!! ~~O~~

The question was how to calculate what height of standoff we needed
("!!" on the diagram)

That was actually an algebra equation such as

1/2" ground clearance + 1/4" angle thickness + standoff height = 4"
caster height.

or 1/2 + 1/4 + X = 4

or

x + 3/4 = 4

or x = 3 1/4

The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

i
www.algebra.com

Try calculating the volume of horizontally mounted cylindrical tank with
domed hemispherical ends as a function of the height of the liquid so that
you can devise your own stab stick.

Stu

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:49:04 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:

b
"Ignoramus27711" wrote in message
m...
So someone and I were designing a base with casters for a cold saw.

The design was to have an angle iron piece to go underneath the
saw, to support the saw, extend outside the saw, then have standoffs
and a horizontal piece to hold the caster.


========= ==========
~~O~~ !!________________!! ~~O~~

The question was how to calculate what height of standoff we needed
("!!" on the diagram)

That was actually an algebra equation such as

1/2" ground clearance + 1/4" angle thickness + standoff height = 4"
caster height.

or 1/2 + 1/4 + X = 4

or

x + 3/4 = 4

or x = 3 1/4

The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

i
www.algebra.com

Try calculating the volume of horizontally mounted cylindrical tank with
domed hemispherical ends as a function of the height of the liquid so that
you can devise your own stab stick.

Stu


You mean like the DIPSTICK program on my web page?

Regards, Marv

Home Shop Freeware - Tools for People Who Build Things
http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

"Ignoramus27711" wrote in message
...

Do you remember

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Pick any two and calculate the third. I used to use it all the time in my
dad's hardware store to calculate how much guy wire somebody needed to
support an antenna tower. Same principle, different application.

On 2008-06-02, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus27711" wrote in message
...

Do you remember

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Pick any two and calculate the third. I used to use it all the time in my
dad's hardware store to calculate how much guy wire somebody needed to
support an antenna tower. Same principle, different application.

Yes. It is good to remember some common multipliers, like for 45
degrees.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Marv wrote:

You mean like the DIPSTICK program on my web page?

Regards, Marv

Marv, I'm suprised to see you here. I thought you only
inhabited the modelenginemachining BB. :-)
...lew...

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 16:03:23 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Marv wrote:

You mean like the DIPSTICK program on my web page?

Regards, Marv

Marv, I'm suprised to see you here. I thought you only
inhabited the modelenginemachining BB. :-)
...lew...

No, Lew, like the Shadow, I lurk in lots of places.

But, being uninterested in politics and guns, I seldom contribute
here.

Regards, Marv

Home Shop Freeware - Tools for People Who Build Things
http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

Knowing trig will help you a lot more Iggy,

Understanding the power of a right triangle, and learning a few
multipliers
derived from some common angles like the 30, 45 and 60 degrees will make
you
look like a magician.

I totally agree with you.

i

Okay, so you found something where some higher mathematics actually was
worth knowing. I've never had any situation where higher mathematics was
needed. I'll wager that the vast majority of people will agree that they
have never used it either. I hear that in China and some other countries
they make students take calculus every year in high school. So I'm wondering
exactly what are all these people going to use this mathematics for once
they get out in the real world. Engineers and a few other occupations
excepted, I can't see what teaching that kind of math would be good for
since over 95% of occupations don't use it for anything.

Hawke

On 2008-06-03, Hawke wrote:

Okay, so you found something where some higher mathematics actually was
worth knowing.
I've never had any situation where higher mathematics was
needed.

Try metalworking.

I'll wager that the vast majority of people will agree that they
have never used it either. I hear that in China and some other
countries they make students take calculus every year in high
school. So I'm wondering exactly what are all these people going to
use this mathematics for once they get out in the real
world. Engineers and a few other occupations excepted, I can't see
what teaching that kind of math would be good for since over 95% of
occupations don't use it for anything.

I use higher mathematics (partial diff. equation numerical methods
etc) at work and I am very nicely paid for it, plus it is fun.

I am not a math whiz and I never learned beyond regular college level
mathematical physics program.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

When I took night classes in Calculus and EE the professors were much
more practical than the ones I had back in college. One suggested
memorizing a few logarithms, square roots and reciprocals to aid in
mental math. I did, and found I could solve a lot of problems faster
in my head than the engineer could with a calculator. The square roots
give you triangles and the reciprocals turn division into easier
multiplication. Logarithms were vital in microwave work. I've read
that Rommel memorized them to help with field engineering problems.

I get lost when the math ceases to be intuitive, though, like Taylor
series and s-plane transformations, so I never would have made it to
an EE or ME degree. But I like working with my hands and a lab tech
doesn't have to write memos or stay awake through meetings.

Jim Wilkins

On Jun 3, 1:01*am, "Hawke" wrote:
* Knowing trig will help you a lot more Iggy,



Understanding the power of a right triangle, and learning a few
multipliers
derived from some common angles like the 30, 45 and 60 degrees will make
you
look like a magician.

I totally agree with you.

i

Okay, so you found something where some higher mathematics actually was
worth knowing. I've never had any situation where higher mathematics was
needed. I'll wager that the vast majority of people will agree that they
have never used it either. I hear that in China and some other countries
they make students take calculus every year in high school. So I'm wondering
exactly what are all these people going to use this mathematics for once
they get out in the real world. Engineers and a few other occupations
excepted, I can't see what teaching that kind of math would be good for
since over 95% of occupations don't use it for anything.

Hawke

In the early 1960s south Korea was one of the poorest places on earth.

I was told this story. One of our trucks broke down near a jr. high
school
and some of the kids came over to check it out. The GIs let them sit
in
the driver's seat and showed them their guns.

A couple kids asked
the GIs to help them with their homework which was calculus. They
might
have thought our guys couldn't handle it. No problem. We had a math
major who ended up in the army and he was way ahead of them.
About 16% of our company were Korean linguists so that gave us
a secret advantage too.

Since then, Korea has made fantastic progress and is on the way up
in the fast lane. Best Regards, Charlie

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote:

Try calculating the volume of horizontally mounted cylindrical tank with
domed hemispherical ends as a function of the height of the liquid so that
you can devise your own stab stick.

Stu


I never did that but I did construct various tables that would give an idea of length
remaining of various rolled goods. It was rather exciting to see how the terms reduced.

Wes

And don't forget the lesson about the constipated mathematician who worked it
out with a pencil !!

(snicker)

--
Message posted via CraftKB.com
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.as...rking/200806/1

On 2008-06-04, toolman946 via CraftKB.com u40139@uwe wrote:
And don't forget the lesson about the constipated mathematician who worked it
out with a pencil !!

(snicker)

Nope -- it was "with a slide rule".

Or "with logs".

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-06-04, toolman946 via CraftKB.com u40139@uwe wrote:

And don't forget the lesson about the constipated mathematician who worked it
out with a pencil !!

(snicker)


Nope -- it was "with a slide rule".

Or "with logs".

Enjoy,
DoN.



Noah released all the animals in the Ark, told them to go forth and
multiply.

After all the critters were gone, he found two tiny little snakes
crawling around in the bilges.

"I thought I told you guys to go forth and multiply", cried Noah.

"We can't", they replied, "We're Adders".

(drummer does a rim shot)

So, educated man that he was, Noah took the Adders into the galley and
tossed them on the table.

Because, as every schoolboy should know, ddders can multiply on a log
table...


(Big Groan!)

On Jun 4, 5:16 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:


(Big Groan!)

Yep. There was an item in our local paper recently - "Maths Teacher
Arrested at Airport"

He tried to board an aeroplane, and the routine security check, when
searching his luggage, found a compass, protractor, and calculator.

He was subsequently charged with possessing Weapons Of Maths
Instruction.....


(My method - make everything generously oversize, then cut down to
final size - anything more than the basic 4 functions is beyond
me....)

Andrew VK3BFA.

Ignoramus27711 wrote:
...
The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

And trig. The basic 3 functions. A few years ago I built a trolley
to lift roofing shingles on a ladder:


/
/
/
/ /
/ /
/ /
+ / ----
| / x
\-------O/ ----
\ /
\ /
\ /
O/
/
/
/
/


There was an electric hoist at the top & the big question was where to
attach the cable to the trolley, so as to have equal weight on the
wheels. Too low and the cable would lift the top wheels; too high & it
would lift the bottom wheels. Somewhere in the middle would be just right.

I solved it by summing moments to zero around 2 points, solving
simultaneous equations with lots of sin, cos, & tan values. (If you're
thinking "Why simultaneous equations when there's only 1 unknown?",
you're right, but for some forgotten reason it was more convenient to
have 2 or 3 unknowns.)

Bob

wrote:
(My method - make everything generously oversize, then cut down to
final size - anything more than the basic 4 functions is beyond
me....)

Andrew VK3BFA.
Thats OK as long as it DOSEN'T have an = sign on it.:-)
...lew...

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
. ..
Ignoramus27711 wrote:
...
The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

And trig. The basic 3 functions. A few years ago I built a trolley
to lift roofing shingles on a ladder:


/
/
/
/ /
/ /
/ /
+ / ----
| / x
\-------O/ ----
\ /
\ /
\ /
O/
/
/
/
/


There was an electric hoist at the top & the big question was where to
attach the cable to the trolley, so as to have equal weight on the
wheels. Too low and the cable would lift the top wheels; too high & it
would lift the bottom wheels. Somewhere in the middle would be just
right.

I solved it by summing moments to zero around 2 points, solving
simultaneous equations with lots of sin, cos, & tan values. (If you're
thinking "Why simultaneous equations when there's only 1 unknown?",
you're right, but for some forgotten reason it was more convenient to
have 2 or 3 unknowns.)

Bob

My point was that only in a small number of instances does the need for this
kind of mathematics become useful. Knowing it is great when you have to have
the knowledge to solve a specific problem. But does everyone need to take
calculus every year in high school? As the situations where this kind of
information is so small and in such specialized areas wouldn't students be
better off learning something that would be useful to all of them? American
students certainly don't take that amount of math. Have we made up a lousy
curriculum for our students or have the Asians done it wrong? When the goal
of education is to teach people what they will have a use for in their lives
does a lot of higher math achieve that goal? I'd say no.

Hawke

"Hawke" writes:

Knowing trig will help you a lot more Iggy,

Understanding the power of a right triangle, and learning a few
multipliers
derived from some common angles like the 30, 45 and 60 degrees will make
you
look like a magician.

I totally agree with you.

i

Okay, so you found something where some higher mathematics actually was
worth knowing. I've never had any situation where higher mathematics was
needed. I'll wager that the vast majority of people will agree that
they

No, he was using algebra. No higher math at all.

have never used it either. I hear that in China and some other countries
they make students take calculus every year in high school. So I'm wondering
exactly what are all these people going to use this mathematics for once
they get out in the real world. Engineers and a few other occupations
excepted, I can't see what teaching that kind of math would be good for
since over 95% of occupations don't use it for anything.

Teaches you to think abstractly, which is an extraordinarily valuable
skill even if you never take another integral.

"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
. ..
Ignoramus27711 wrote:
...
The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking

And trig. The basic 3 functions. A few years ago I built a trolley
to lift roofing shingles on a ladder:


/
/
/
/ /
/ /
/ /
+ / ----
| / x
\-------O/ ----
\ /
\ /
\ /
O/
/
/
/
/


There was an electric hoist at the top & the big question was where to
attach the cable to the trolley, so as to have equal weight on the
wheels. Too low and the cable would lift the top wheels; too high & it
would lift the bottom wheels. Somewhere in the middle would be just
right.

I solved it by summing moments to zero around 2 points, solving
simultaneous equations with lots of sin, cos, & tan values. (If you're
thinking "Why simultaneous equations when there's only 1 unknown?",
you're right, but for some forgotten reason it was more convenient to
have 2 or 3 unknowns.)

Bob

My point was that only in a small number of instances does the need for
this
kind of mathematics become useful. Knowing it is great when you have to
have
the knowledge to solve a specific problem. But does everyone need to take
calculus every year in high school? As the situations where this kind of
information is so small and in such specialized areas wouldn't students be
better off learning something that would be useful to all of them?
American
students certainly don't take that amount of math. Have we made up a lousy
curriculum for our students or have the Asians done it wrong? When the
goal
of education is to teach people what they will have a use for in their
lives
does a lot of higher math achieve that goal? I'd say no.

My son is an economics major and he took two terms of college-level
calculus. It's a requirement for econ majors in most schools, and a
prerequisite for many econ courses, particularly econometrics.

Up through that second term, it's very useful in a lot of fields. In medical
editing I use mostly statistics, but calculus shows up frequently in
clinical research studies. Fortunately, I had it in college and refreshed my
memory a few times since.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:43:11 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"Hawke" writes:

Knowing trig will help you a lot more Iggy,

Understanding the power of a right triangle, and learning a few
multipliers
derived from some common angles like the 30, 45 and 60 degrees will make
you
look like a magician.

I totally agree with you.

i

Okay, so you found something where some higher mathematics actually was
worth knowing. I've never had any situation where higher mathematics was
needed. I'll wager that the vast majority of people will agree that
they

No, he was using algebra. No higher math at all.

have never used it either. I hear that in China and some other countries
they make students take calculus every year in high school. So I'm wondering
exactly what are all these people going to use this mathematics for once
they get out in the real world. Engineers and a few other occupations
excepted, I can't see what teaching that kind of math would be good for
since over 95% of occupations don't use it for anything.

Teaches you to think abstractly, which is an extraordinarily valuable
skill even if you never take another integral.

Exactly. Generally the people who can find no use for mathematics are
the ones who never took the time to learn any mathematics to use.

Regards, Marv

Home Shop Freeware - Tools for People Who Build Things
http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

"Hawke" wrote: My point was that only in a small number of instances does
the need for this
kind of mathematics become useful. Knowing it is great when you have to
have
the knowledge to solve a specific problem. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you think that your time studying math was wasted, it probably was. For
people who "get it," an understanding of math and physics gives them an
understanding of the way things work, that is in play all the time--not just
when they are solving specific problems. I find analytical geometry (which
no one has mentioned) particularly helpful--it helps to visualize the way
functions behave and interact.

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:49:04 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:

Try calculating the volume of horizontally mounted cylindrical tank with
domed hemispherical ends as a function of the height of the liquid so that
you can devise your own stab stick.

I'm horrible at higher math, but even I know you split that into a
horizontal cylinder and a sphere (for the two end shells). Solve the
height/volume for each separately, and add the results together.

And don't forget to allow for a striking pad in the bottom of the
tank at the stick hole - underground storage tanks place a big piece
of 1/2" plate there so you don't drop the stick hard a few thousand
times and manage to crack the inner wall. Or just 'the wall' on an
old single-wall tank.

-- Bruce --

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:58:56 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:49:04 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:

Try calculating the volume of horizontally mounted cylindrical tank with
domed hemispherical ends as a function of the height of the liquid so that
you can devise your own stab stick.

I'm horrible at higher math, but even I know you split that into a
horizontal cylinder and a sphere (for the two end shells). Solve the
height/volume for each separately, and add the results together.

And don't forget to allow for a striking pad in the bottom of the
tank at the stick hole - underground storage tanks place a big piece
of 1/2" plate there so you don't drop the stick hard a few thousand
times and manage to crack the inner wall. Or just 'the wall' on an
old single-wall tank.

-- Bruce --

While tanks with hemispherical ends exist, most tanks have domed ends
that are not hemispheres. Typically, they're a portion of a spherical
surface that has a center somewhere in the interior of the tank.

Given only the OAL of the tank and the length and diameter of the
cylindrical part of the tank, the math becomes an interesting
exercise.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:49:04 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:

Try calculating the volume of horizontally mounted cylindrical tank with
domed hemispherical ends as a function of the height of the liquid so that
you can devise your own stab stick.

I'm horrible at higher math, but even I know you split that into a
horizontal cylinder and a sphere (for the two end shells). Solve the
height/volume for each separately, and add the results together.

And don't forget to allow for a striking pad in the bottom of the
tank at the stick hole - underground storage tanks place a big piece
of 1/2" plate there so you don't drop the stick hard a few thousand
times and manage to crack the inner wall. Or just 'the wall' on an
old single-wall tank.

-- Bruce --

Bruce you are right, the equation for the volume of a partially filled
horizontal cylinder as a function of the height needs to be derived as well
as the partially filled domes on the end. Of course a straight forward,
less exotic way is to fill the tank a gallon at a time and mark your stick.

Stu

Building trades need the skill for frames and such.
Sheet metal guys need it for that Cone to pipe at 48 degrees with a branch .....
Draw that out in a sheet to cut out then bend up right.

Lots of algebra is done everyday just thinking.

Then the engineering trades - lots of math.

When not addressed, a sky bridge falls or a boiler blows...

Farmers use it - milk producers do as well. Math is a creeping into
lives everywhere - more now as more children grow up and use it.

Martin

Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Hawke wrote:
"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
. ..
Ignoramus27711 wrote:
...
The point is, knowing algebra helps with metalworking
And trig. The basic 3 functions. A few years ago I built a trolley
to lift roofing shingles on a ladder:


/
/
/
/ /
/ /
/ /
+ / ----
| / x
\-------O/ ----
\ /
\ /
\ /
O/
/
/
/
/


There was an electric hoist at the top & the big question was where to
attach the cable to the trolley, so as to have equal weight on the
wheels. Too low and the cable would lift the top wheels; too high & it
would lift the bottom wheels. Somewhere in the middle would be just
right.
I solved it by summing moments to zero around 2 points, solving
simultaneous equations with lots of sin, cos, & tan values. (If you're
thinking "Why simultaneous equations when there's only 1 unknown?",
you're right, but for some forgotten reason it was more convenient to
have 2 or 3 unknowns.)

Bob

My point was that only in a small number of instances does the need for this
kind of mathematics become useful. Knowing it is great when you have to have
the knowledge to solve a specific problem. But does everyone need to take
calculus every year in high school? As the situations where this kind of
information is so small and in such specialized areas wouldn't students be
better off learning something that would be useful to all of them? American
students certainly don't take that amount of math. Have we made up a lousy
curriculum for our students or have the Asians done it wrong? When the goal
of education is to teach people what they will have a use for in their lives
does a lot of higher math achieve that goal? I'd say no.

Hawke




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The Geometries were major classes for hundreds of years. Applications abound.
Make a stair out of wood. Or concrete. A walkway along side a house.
Make the fireplace in the back yard look square to the house.

The line of trees.....

A lot of people use the touchy feely mode of placement/design.
A lot of people use applied mathematics in every day life.

In fact, "Handbook of Applied Mathematics" is a good practical math book.
I have one - a couple of shelves above the M-Theory and Strings.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Leo Lichtman wrote:
"Hawke" wrote: My point was that only in a small number of instances does
the need for this
kind of mathematics become useful. Knowing it is great when you have to
have
the knowledge to solve a specific problem. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you think that your time studying math was wasted, it probably was. For
people who "get it," an understanding of math and physics gives them an
understanding of the way things work, that is in play all the time--not just
when they are solving specific problems. I find analytical geometry (which
no one has mentioned) particularly helpful--it helps to visualize the way
functions behave and interact.




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"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote:


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:49:04 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:

Try calculating the volume of horizontally mounted cylindrical tank with
domed hemispherical ends as a function of the height of the liquid so that
you can devise your own stab stick.

I'm horrible at higher math, but even I know you split that into a
horizontal cylinder and a sphere (for the two end shells). Solve the
height/volume for each separately, and add the results together.

And don't forget to allow for a striking pad in the bottom of the
tank at the stick hole - underground storage tanks place a big piece
of 1/2" plate there so you don't drop the stick hard a few thousand
times and manage to crack the inner wall. Or just 'the wall' on an
old single-wall tank.

-- Bruce --

Bruce you are right, the equation for the volume of a partially filled
horizontal cylinder as a function of the height needs to be derived as well
as the partially filled domes on the end. Of course a straight forward,
less exotic way is to fill the tank a gallon at a time and mark your stick.

Stu

Reminds me of a story my 6th grade math teacher (back in the 60s) told
about Thomas Edison... don't have any idea as to whether it's true or
not.

Edison hired a mathematician to calculate the volume of a light bulb.
After two weeks, the mathematician hadn't quite come up with the
answer. So Edison filled the bulb with water, poured the contents into
a beaker and checked the scale. Can't say it was that accurate, but
still a nice story.

-Bruno

Marv wrote:
Generally the people who can find no use for mathematics are
the ones who never took the time to learn any mathematics to use.

Regards, Marv

You know Marv that would make a good "Sig line" if I were into
such. (like a few on here :-) )
...lew...

Hawke wrote:
When the goal
of education is to teach people what they will have a use for in their lives
does a lot of higher math achieve that goal? I'd say no.

Hawke

And right there is the BIG problem with our whole education system.
That is what they are doing and it isn't doing any good.
"Schooling" should be teaching the students HOW TO THINK.
:-(
...lew...(sorry I shouldnt be replying to that trool)

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

A lot of people use the touchy feely mode of placement/design.

Martin

Those are called " Artists" . :-)
...lew...

"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
news
Hawke wrote:
When the goal
of education is to teach people what they will have a use for in their
lives
does a lot of higher math achieve that goal? I'd say no.

Hawke

And right there is the BIG problem with our whole education system.
That is what they are doing and it isn't doing any good.
"Schooling" should be teaching the students HOW TO THINK.
:-(
...lew...(sorry I shouldnt be replying to that trool)


Yep, you're right, you shouldn't, but here you are doing it anyway. I know
why too, you just can't help yourself. You just like to argue. This issue
reminds me of the days when it was argued that Latin was a necessary
language to be learned in school. I'm sure I can think of some cases where
Latin would come in handy the same as I can think of some technical
situations where higher mathematics is also good to know. But that isn't the
point. The point is whether it is worth it to use the time in school to
learn things like calculus or something else. It is a question of
opportunity cost. If you learn calculus then you can't spend the time on
something else. Is higher math the best and highest use of a student's time?
Like I said, I don't think so. It's a specialized type of learning that less
than 5% of jobs has any use for. Take a look at the want ads and see how
many of the jobs offered are going to require calculus or other high level
math. It's very few. Considering this is the fact, why teach four years of
calculus in high school, like they do in China, when something that will be
more beneficial is going to be neglected? I have nothing about learning this
kind of thing I just think there are other choices that would be more
helpful to the average student. They're also bragging about how great
students in China are because they are learning this. I think they're
wasting their time with it. It's fine for a select few but not for everyone.


Hawke

Lew Hartswick writes:

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

A lot of people use the touchy feely mode of placement/design.

Martin

Those are called " Artists" . :-)

Oddly, a commercial artist I know (see http://www.bobdiven.com/) is
extremely good at practical engineering and fabrication. His
trebuchet (and performance as "Ratcatcher Robert" -- he refers to the
trebuchet as a ratapult, and gives a brief lecture on the history of
bubonic plague) is a high point of the annual Rennaisance Craftfaire
here in town, and last I heard from him he was working on building a
replica biplane (from plans, not his own design -- and no, I don't
remember the model).

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:27:45 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Building trades need the skill for frames and such.
Sheet metal guys need it for that Cone to pipe at 48 degrees with a branch .....
Draw that out in a sheet to cut out then bend up right.

Lots of algebra is done everyday just thinking.

Then the engineering trades - lots of math.

When not addressed, a sky bridge falls or a boiler blows...

Sorry, but you have a huge error there - The Skybridge in the Kansas
City (Marriott?) was designed just fine. It failed because the
contractor did not build to the print as designed, and did not think
through the effects of the design changes he made or get them approved
by the architect and structural engineers.

The original design had multiple hanger rods going to the roof, one
for supporting each layer separately from the rest, and a specifically
designed saddle to hang them from.

The builder used one rod to hang the top bridge, then a second rod
from the top bridge down to the second, and then another from second
to third. And he modified the mounting method so one set of rods and
nuts on the top level was carrying the entire load of all three
levels. A disaster waiting to happen.

-- Bruce --