Lew Hartswick wrote:

Marv wrote:
Generally the people who can find no use for mathematics are
the ones who never took the time to learn any mathematics to use.

Regards, Marv

You know Marv that would make a good "Sig line" if I were into
such. (like a few on here :-) )
...lew...


How about: Constipated mathematicians work it out with a pencil! ;-)


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On Jun 5, 2:33*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* The original design had multiple hanger rods going to the roof, one
for supporting each layer separately from the rest, and a specifically
designed saddle to hang them from.

* The builder used one rod to hang the top bridge, then a second rod
from the top bridge down to the second, and then another from second
to third. *And he modified the mounting method so one set of rods and
nuts on the top level was carrying the entire load of all three
levels. *A disaster waiting to happen.

* -- Bruce --

IIRC from his talk to our Mensa group a long time ago, the accident
investigator said that the designer specified one-piece rods running
through all levels with threaded sections for the walkway support nuts
and the rest turned down. The cross-section of the rod was large
enough for the entire load but the threads were sized to carry one
level only. The builder didn't have the floor space around his lathe
to turn rods that long so he divided them into sections with coupling
nuts.

I remember progressive thread failure caused by the bolt and nut
stretching unequally from somewhere, possibly this lecture, or an
article on Herreshoff the yacht designer who made his own turnbuckles
so carefully engineered that samples tested to failure were distorted
all over.

Jim Wilkins

In article
,
Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Jun 5, 2:33*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* The original design had multiple hanger rods going to the roof, one
for supporting each layer separately from the rest, and a specifically
designed saddle to hang them from.

* The builder used one rod to hang the top bridge, then a second rod
from the top bridge down to the second, and then another from second
to third. *And he modified the mounting method so one set of rods and
nuts on the top level was carrying the entire load of all three
levels. *A disaster waiting to happen.

* -- Bruce --

IIRC from his talk to our Mensa group a long time ago, the accident
investigator said that the designer specified one-piece rods running
through all levels with threaded sections for the walkway support nuts
and the rest turned down. The cross-section of the rod was large
enough for the entire load but the threads were sized to carry one
level only. The builder didn't have the floor space around his lathe
to turn rods that long so he divided them into sections with coupling
nuts.

I remember progressive thread failure caused by the bolt and nut
stretching unequally from somewhere, possibly this lecture, or an
article on Herreshoff the yacht designer who made his own turnbuckles
so carefully engineered that samples tested to failure were distorted
all over.

I have the accident report somewhere.

The architect's mistake was to specify a very long 1.25" (?) diameter
stainless steel rod with threads in the middle, in three places, where
the nut holding the three or four decks would be. The threads would
need to be larger than the rod, so a nut could be slid along the
unthreaded parts. However, one cannot buy such a rod.

The construction company's main mistake was to try to build it anyway,
with field adjustments to the design, rather than insisting that the
architect come up with a practical design.

The construction company's other mistake was to fabricate the box beams
underlying the decks from two channels welded flange to flange.

As Bruce described, the replacement design tripled the load on the nut
holding the the top deck, and the nut simply pulled through the
fabricated box beams, forcing the channel beams apart by ripping the
welds. Once one nut pulled through, the impact caused most of the
others to also pull through, and the whole thing just unzipped.

Joe Gwinn

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Lew Hartswick writes:


Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

A lot of people use the touchy feely mode of placement/design.

Martin

Those are called " Artists" . :-)


Oddly, a commercial artist I know (see http://www.bobdiven.com/) is
extremely good at practical engineering and fabrication. His
trebuchet (and performance as "Ratcatcher Robert" -- he refers to the
trebuchet as a ratapult, and gives a brief lecture on the history of
bubonic plague) is a high point of the annual Rennaisance Craftfaire
here in town, and last I heard from him he was working on building a
replica biplane (from plans, not his own design -- and no, I don't
remember the model).

Well he isn't a "REAL" artist. :-) Like a few I know. :-)
...lew...

Hawke wrote:
Yep, you're right, You just like to argue.
Hawke

:-) Partly that and I don't have a job or even my volunteer
position now that school is out. (retired 10 yrs ago)
I'm not talking about what you are calling "higher math"
necessarily, but having been in close contact with several
hundred high school students over the last 6 or 7 years
that cant do arithmetic let alone algebra or trig I can
tell you exactly the competance of your typical high school
student. :-(
When I went to school we had Algebra I, Algebra II,
Plane Geometry, Solid Geometry, and Trigonometry.
Calculus, diferential and integral I didn't get till college.
That served me very well and a lot of other folks I know.
...lew...

Bruce L. Bergman writes:

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:27:45 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Building trades need the skill for frames and such.
Sheet metal guys need it for that Cone to pipe at 48 degrees with a branch .....
Draw that out in a sheet to cut out then bend up right.

Lots of algebra is done everyday just thinking.

Then the engineering trades - lots of math.

When not addressed, a sky bridge falls or a boiler blows...

Sorry, but you have a huge error there - The Skybridge in the Kansas
City (Marriott?) was designed just fine. It failed because the
contractor did not build to the print as designed, and did not think
through the effects of the design changes he made or get them approved
by the architect and structural engineers.

The original design had multiple hanger rods going to the roof, one
for supporting each layer separately from the rest, and a specifically
designed saddle to hang them from.

The builder used one rod to hang the top bridge, then a second rod
from the top bridge down to the second, and then another from second
to third. And he modified the mounting method so one set of rods and
nuts on the top level was carrying the entire load of all three
levels. A disaster waiting to happen.

I'd say that's exactly what he's talking about -- it's just the people
doing the on-site engineering didn't have the title "engineer". They
did exactly the failure to analyze that makes skybridges fall down.

(and, hopefully, they were exceeding their authority as badly as they
were exceeding their competence)

"Hawke" wrote

My point was that only in a small number of instances does the need for
this
kind of mathematics become useful. Knowing it is great when you have to
have
the knowledge to solve a specific problem. But does everyone need to take
calculus every year in high school? As the situations where this kind of
information is so small and in such specialized areas wouldn't students be
better off learning something that would be useful to all of them?
American
students certainly don't take that amount of math. Have we made up a lousy
curriculum for our students or have the Asians done it wrong? When the
goal
of education is to teach people what they will have a use for in their
lives
does a lot of higher math achieve that goal? I'd say no.

Hawke

I guess the alternative is just to give students attendance certificates and
let them excel in texting in chatroomese. I would prefer students with such
a basic knowledge of math that they can make change for a fast food order,
and calculate SIMPLE things. With that knowledge of math, if they ever do
get into algebraic or trigonometric problems, they would have the abc's to
form mathematical words.

But that's just me. My kids are college graduates and not living at home,
even though they are 26 and 30.

YMMV

Steve

There are more than that KC disaster.

Lots of decks are 10,20,30 feet in the air.

Mine was 18 feet on the large section and down four flights to the ground.
It was engineered for load and flex. It was several thousand square feet of
Coastal Redwood and was in perfect condition after the 7.9 earth quake
that was less than 10 miles away. So did the house. It is called design.
And over build. The better parts were not breaking rules but added.

Mostly deep and strong piers and many of them.

After the Earthquake the home was crack free with the tall A frame walls.
A week later, a smaller echo quake from further north cracked on door corner.

For six months we were called to show the foundation to those re-building
their home.

Once those were built, they were used as examples.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:27:45 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Building trades need the skill for frames and such.
Sheet metal guys need it for that Cone to pipe at 48 degrees with a branch .....
Draw that out in a sheet to cut out then bend up right.

Lots of algebra is done everyday just thinking.

Then the engineering trades - lots of math.

When not addressed, a sky bridge falls or a boiler blows...

Sorry, but you have a huge error there - The Skybridge in the Kansas
City (Marriott?) was designed just fine. It failed because the
contractor did not build to the print as designed, and did not think
through the effects of the design changes he made or get them approved
by the architect and structural engineers.

The original design had multiple hanger rods going to the roof, one
for supporting each layer separately from the rest, and a specifically
designed saddle to hang them from.

The builder used one rod to hang the top bridge, then a second rod
from the top bridge down to the second, and then another from second
to third. And he modified the mounting method so one set of rods and
nuts on the top level was carrying the entire load of all three
levels. A disaster waiting to happen.

-- Bruce --



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"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
m...
Hawke wrote:
Yep, you're right, You just like to argue.
Hawke

:-) Partly that and I don't have a job or even my volunteer
position now that school is out. (retired 10 yrs ago)
I'm not talking about what you are calling "higher math"
necessarily, but having been in close contact with several
hundred high school students over the last 6 or 7 years
that cant do arithmetic let alone algebra or trig I can
tell you exactly the competance of your typical high school
student. :-(
When I went to school we had Algebra I, Algebra II,
Plane Geometry, Solid Geometry, and Trigonometry.
Calculus, diferential and integral I didn't get till college.
That served me very well and a lot of other folks I know.
...lew...


Here's the problem. You guys that can do and understand math remind me of
the basketball players that say I don't see what's so hard about dunking a
basketball and why can't you do it. All my friends can. Most people just
can't understand math. The people who do understand it think it's easy and
can't see why others don't get it. Just like the basketball player. To me
math is like when you go to the eye doctor and they show you the color
blindness charts where it's a circle filled with colored dots and there is a
number in the middle, which you can see if you're not colorblind. But if
you're color blind you can't see anything. That's math. If you get it you
can see the number in the circle if you can't you see nothing. Most people
could never complete a class in trig, calculus, or what comes after. It
takes a certain type of brain to understand that stuff. Those of you who get
it are lucky. Most of us are not. Even so, I still think there are other
classes that would be more helpful for most students than mathematics. Aside
from Goodwill Hunting, I've never seen a janitor or anyone working
construction, or on an oil rig, or selling cars, or cage fighting, or so
many other jobs doing equations. Like you said, most people can't even do
simple arithmetic, but I can understand why.

Hawke

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Hawke" wrote

My point was that only in a small number of instances does the need for
this
kind of mathematics become useful. Knowing it is great when you have to
have
the knowledge to solve a specific problem. But does everyone need to
take
calculus every year in high school? As the situations where this kind of
information is so small and in such specialized areas wouldn't students
be
better off learning something that would be useful to all of them?
American
students certainly don't take that amount of math. Have we made up a
lousy
curriculum for our students or have the Asians done it wrong? When the
goal
of education is to teach people what they will have a use for in their
lives
does a lot of higher math achieve that goal? I'd say no.

Hawke

I guess the alternative is just to give students attendance certificates
and
let them excel in texting in chatroomese. I would prefer students with
such
a basic knowledge of math that they can make change for a fast food order,
and calculate SIMPLE things. With that knowledge of math, if they ever do
get into algebraic or trigonometric problems, they would have the abc's to
form mathematical words.

But that's just me. My kids are college graduates and not living at home,
even though they are 26 and 30.

YMMV

Steve


I wouldn't speak too soon if I were you. There is still time for them to
boomerang if things go wrong.

Hawke

In article ,
"Hawke" wrote:

"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
m...
Hawke wrote:

When I went to school we had Algebra I, Algebra II,
Plane Geometry, Solid Geometry, and Trigonometry.
Calculus, diferential and integral I didn't get till college.
That served me very well and a lot of other folks I know.
...lew...

Same at my high school, though introductory calculus was offered as a
senior elective.

I went through hell with math until I ran into a teacher who wouldn't
let me fail and gave me the confidence that I could, in fact, learn it.

God Bless You, Mary Dye!

I seldom used algebra or anything higher after college, but in these
later years I've rediscovered calculus and am having some fun with it.

I still hate integrals.

What I think learning math provides is the ability to perceive
relationships and express them in terms that are useful in more than one
instance. You can use the derived formulas in all kinds of jobs.

Geometry and trig are still useful for building, machining, and figuring
the height of mountains or telephone poles.

I get thoroughly wrapped (and warped) when reading the quantum mechanics
folks. Some of those relationships are just plain wild, but often
devolve to just statistics and probability!

Maths just opens you up to knowing a little of how the universe works.
In someone's pithy words: Mathematics is how God thinks.



Here's the problem. You guys that can do and understand math remind me of
the basketball players that say I don't see what's so hard about dunking a
basketball and why can't you do it. All my friends can. Most people just
can't understand math. The people who do understand it think it's easy and
can't see why others don't get it. Just like the basketball player. To me
math is like when you go to the eye doctor and they show you the color
blindness charts where it's a circle filled with colored dots and there is a
number in the middle, which you can see if you're not colorblind. But if
you're color blind you can't see anything. That's math. If you get it you
can see the number in the circle if you can't you see nothing. Most people
could never complete a class in trig, calculus, or what comes after. It
takes a certain type of brain to understand that stuff. Those of you who get
it are lucky. Most of us are not. Even so, I still think there are other
classes that would be more helpful for most students than mathematics. Aside
from Goodwill Hunting, I've never seen a janitor or anyone working
construction, or on an oil rig, or selling cars, or cage fighting, or so
many other jobs doing equations. Like you said, most people can't even do
simple arithmetic, but I can understand why.

Hawke

Hawke wrote:
"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
m...

Hawke wrote:

Yep, you're right, You just like to argue.
Hawke

:-) Partly that and I don't have a job or even my volunteer
position now that school is out. (retired 10 yrs ago)
I'm not talking about what you are calling "higher math"
necessarily, but having been in close contact with several
hundred high school students over the last 6 or 7 years
that cant do arithmetic let alone algebra or trig I can
tell you exactly the competance of your typical high school
student. :-(
When I went to school we had Algebra I, Algebra II,
Plane Geometry, Solid Geometry, and Trigonometry.
Calculus, diferential and integral I didn't get till college.
That served me very well and a lot of other folks I know.
...lew...



Here's the problem. You guys that can do and understand math remind me of
the basketball players that say I don't see what's so hard about dunking a
basketball and why can't you do it. All my friends can. Most people just
can't understand math. The people who do understand it think it's easy and
can't see why others don't get it. Just like the basketball player. To me
math is like when you go to the eye doctor and they show you the color
blindness charts where it's a circle filled with colored dots and there is a
number in the middle, which you can see if you're not colorblind. But if
you're color blind you can't see anything. That's math. If you get it you
can see the number in the circle if you can't you see nothing. Most people
could never complete a class in trig, calculus, or what comes after. It
takes a certain type of brain to understand that stuff. Those of you who get
it are lucky. Most of us are not. Even so, I still think there are other
classes that would be more helpful for most students than mathematics. Aside
from Goodwill Hunting, I've never seen a janitor or anyone working
construction, or on an oil rig, or selling cars, or cage fighting, or so
many other jobs doing equations. Like you said, most people can't even do
simple arithmetic, but I can understand why.

Hawke

OK Hawke, I see your point. I guess My BIG complaint should be with
the "mainlining", or what ever they call it, trying to push every
kid through the same curriculum and the whole concept of "No Child
Left Behind". I can relate to your argument with History and language,
I flunked History 21 and German 1 in college the first time through.
Math and sciences were a breeze. (struggled like hell with english
comp) :-)
I guess different brains work different.
...lew...

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:34:35 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Hawke wrote:
"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
m...

Hawke wrote:

Yep, you're right, You just like to argue.
Hawke

:-) Partly that and I don't have a job or even my volunteer
position now that school is out. (retired 10 yrs ago)
I'm not talking about what you are calling "higher math"
necessarily, but having been in close contact with several
hundred high school students over the last 6 or 7 years
that cant do arithmetic let alone algebra or trig I can
tell you exactly the competance of your typical high school
student. :-(
When I went to school we had Algebra I, Algebra II,
Plane Geometry, Solid Geometry, and Trigonometry.
Calculus, diferential and integral I didn't get till college.
That served me very well and a lot of other folks I know.
...lew...



Here's the problem. You guys that can do and understand math remind me of
the basketball players that say I don't see what's so hard about dunking a
basketball and why can't you do it. All my friends can. Most people just
can't understand math. The people who do understand it think it's easy and
can't see why others don't get it. Just like the basketball player. To me
math is like when you go to the eye doctor and they show you the color
blindness charts where it's a circle filled with colored dots and there is a
number in the middle, which you can see if you're not colorblind. But if
you're color blind you can't see anything. That's math. If you get it you
can see the number in the circle if you can't you see nothing. Most people
could never complete a class in trig, calculus, or what comes after. It
takes a certain type of brain to understand that stuff. Those of you who get
it are lucky. Most of us are not. Even so, I still think there are other
classes that would be more helpful for most students than mathematics. Aside
from Goodwill Hunting, I've never seen a janitor or anyone working
construction, or on an oil rig, or selling cars, or cage fighting, or so
many other jobs doing equations. Like you said, most people can't even do
simple arithmetic, but I can understand why.

Hawke

OK Hawke, I see your point. I guess My BIG complaint should be with
the "mainlining", or what ever they call it, trying to push every
kid through the same curriculum and the whole concept of "No Child
Left Behind". I can relate to your argument with History and language,
I flunked History 21 and German 1 in college the first time through.
Math and sciences were a breeze. (struggled like hell with english
comp) :-)
I guess different brains work different.
...lew...

Most people who claim that their brain simply can't comprehend
mathematics, or, for that matter, any abstraction, are simply making
an excuse for the fact that they're just too lazy to actually apply
themselves to learning.

Learning is a very personal process that demands that you first work
at understanding how your mind works. Too many people fault the
teaching (and teacher) if they fail to learn. The teacher is there to
present the material. It's your job to figure out how to learn what
is presented.

Typically, the first time someone encounters a math concept they can't
immediately understand, they go into mental shut-down mode and, from
that point forward, they actively work to shield themselves from any
mention of mathematics rather than trying to understand why they can't
understand the concept. It doesn't take a genius to understand that
actively avoiding learning situations is not the key to lifelong
learning.

It's like the poor spellers who attribute their garbled writing to ADD
or dyslexia. They're such convenient excuses for not paying attention
to the problem and working out a method for correcting it. Besides,
with the dyslexia excuse in hand, your time spent watching football,
beer in hand, won't be affected.

I'm fairly proficient with math now but, when I was learning algebra
in the ninth grade, it wasn't unusual for me to spend days thinking
about how to reformat a thorny problem into a form in which it was
clear to me. That slowed me down quite a bit early on but served to
make subsequent learning much easier.

Certainly there are people out there with genuine learning
disabilities. However, IMO, their numbers are far fewer than I can
believe by the vast numbers who tell me they "just can't learn"
something.

Regards, Marv

Home Shop Freeware - Tools for People Who Build Things
http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

"Hawke" writes:

Here's the problem. You guys that can do and understand math remind me of
the basketball players that say I don't see what's so hard about dunking a
basketball and why can't you do it. All my friends can. Most people just
can't understand math. The people who do understand it think it's easy and
can't see why others don't get it. Just like the basketball player.

I'm actually sort of intermediate on that -- I found both of the big
abstraction steps in math (algebra and calculus) to be very difficult,
but I was able to get past them. I certainly recognize that some
people find math much harder than I do, while others (my son comes to
mind) find it much easier. And, yes, I do have some degrees that
require lots of math.

To me
math is like when you go to the eye doctor and they show you the color
blindness charts where it's a circle filled with colored dots and there is a
number in the middle, which you can see if you're not colorblind. But if
you're color blind you can't see anything. That's math. If you get it you
can see the number in the circle if you can't you see nothing. Most people
could never complete a class in trig, calculus, or what comes after. It
takes a certain type of brain to understand that stuff. Those of you who get
it are lucky. Most of us are not. Even so, I still think there are other
classes that would be more helpful for most students than mathematics. Aside
from Goodwill Hunting, I've never seen a janitor or anyone working
construction, or on an oil rig, or selling cars, or cage fighting, or so
many other jobs doing equations. Like you said, most people can't even do
simple arithmetic, but I can understand why.

You've certainly picked some professions there that don't require
(much) math. But not many of us are cage fighters, and not many of us
want to be janitors. On the other hand, when I've bought cars, being
told absolutely stupid things about the vehicle's specifications that
even a moment's reflection would show as stupid pretty much eliminates
a salesman's credibility on everything else he tells me, as well.

By the time the person working construction has moved up past
spreading concrete to figuring out how much concrete to spread, or by
the time a machinist is doing anything beyond setting up the machine
according to what somebody else told him, a little bit of algebra and
trig becomes worth whatever difficulty was involved in learning it.
It's pretty much a requirement.

I finally took a community college class in welding last summer -- one
of the most difficult courses I've ever taken, and I know I'll never
be good at it (my welds at this point have improved all the way to
"pathetic"), but even the little things I can do with a MIG have made
it possible to take on projects I never could before. Struggling
through some algebra and trig is much the same.

Hawke wrote:

Yep, you're right, You just like to argue.
Hawke

:-) Partly that and I don't have a job or even my volunteer
position now that school is out. (retired 10 yrs ago)
I'm not talking about what you are calling "higher math"
necessarily, but having been in close contact with several
hundred high school students over the last 6 or 7 years
that cant do arithmetic let alone algebra or trig I can
tell you exactly the competance of your typical high school
student. :-(
When I went to school we had Algebra I, Algebra II,
Plane Geometry, Solid Geometry, and Trigonometry.
Calculus, diferential and integral I didn't get till college.
That served me very well and a lot of other folks I know.
...lew...



Here's the problem. You guys that can do and understand math remind me
of
the basketball players that say I don't see what's so hard about dunking
a
basketball and why can't you do it. All my friends can. Most people just
can't understand math. The people who do understand it think it's easy
and
can't see why others don't get it. Just like the basketball player. To
me
math is like when you go to the eye doctor and they show you the color
blindness charts where it's a circle filled with colored dots and there
is a
number in the middle, which you can see if you're not colorblind. But if
you're color blind you can't see anything. That's math. If you get it
you
can see the number in the circle if you can't you see nothing. Most
people
could never complete a class in trig, calculus, or what comes after. It
takes a certain type of brain to understand that stuff. Those of you who
get
it are lucky. Most of us are not. Even so, I still think there are other
classes that would be more helpful for most students than mathematics.
Aside
from Goodwill Hunting, I've never seen a janitor or anyone working
construction, or on an oil rig, or selling cars, or cage fighting, or so
many other jobs doing equations. Like you said, most people can't even
do
simple arithmetic, but I can understand why.

Hawke

OK Hawke, I see your point. I guess My BIG complaint should be with
the "mainlining", or what ever they call it, trying to push every
kid through the same curriculum and the whole concept of "No Child
Left Behind". I can relate to your argument with History and language,
I flunked History 21 and German 1 in college the first time through.
Math and sciences were a breeze. (struggled like hell with english
comp) :-)
I guess different brains work different.
...lew...

Yep, you get it. I think math and music are a lot alike. Some people seem to
have a talent for one or the other, sometimes both. If you are lucky you
just seem to get how it works. I've always found that the people that are
good at math have a different type of brain. Understanding it and finding it
kind of easy seems to be something you either have or you don't. When you
have the math type brain you can just whiz from one level of math to the
next. The ordinary person just doesn't see what is clear to you. Because of
this the people who are math types tend to think those who don't get it are
stupid but that's not the case. I think it's just a different type of
thinking. Artists are similar. A lot of art is learned but the really good
artists and musicians have a talent for it from a young age. Mathematicians
seem to be the same. You have a grasp of it right away or you don't. If you
find math easy and you learn it quickly consider yourself lucky. The rest of
us don't have that talent. We may be able to learn some of it after a lot of
hard work but it never comes easy like it does to others. But I still think
that making everyone take calculus like they are doing in China is a waste
of most student's time. There are better alternatives for most than spending
that much time on math.

Hawke

Here's the problem. You guys that can do and understand math remind me
of
the basketball players that say I don't see what's so hard about dunking
a
basketball and why can't you do it. All my friends can. Most people just
can't understand math. The people who do understand it think it's easy
and
can't see why others don't get it. Just like the basketball player.

I'm actually sort of intermediate on that -- I found both of the big
abstraction steps in math (algebra and calculus) to be very difficult,
but I was able to get past them. I certainly recognize that some
people find math much harder than I do, while others (my son comes to
mind) find it much easier. And, yes, I do have some degrees that
require lots of math.

To me
math is like when you go to the eye doctor and they show you the color
blindness charts where it's a circle filled with colored dots and there
is a
number in the middle, which you can see if you're not colorblind. But if
you're color blind you can't see anything. That's math. If you get it
you
can see the number in the circle if you can't you see nothing. Most
people
could never complete a class in trig, calculus, or what comes after. It
takes a certain type of brain to understand that stuff. Those of you who
get
it are lucky. Most of us are not. Even so, I still think there are other
classes that would be more helpful for most students than mathematics.
Aside
from Goodwill Hunting, I've never seen a janitor or anyone working
construction, or on an oil rig, or selling cars, or cage fighting, or so
many other jobs doing equations. Like you said, most people can't even
do
simple arithmetic, but I can understand why.

You've certainly picked some professions there that don't require
(much) math. But not many of us are cage fighters, and not many of us
want to be janitors. On the other hand, when I've bought cars, being
told absolutely stupid things about the vehicle's specifications that
even a moment's reflection would show as stupid pretty much eliminates
a salesman's credibility on everything else he tells me, as well.

By the time the person working construction has moved up past
spreading concrete to figuring out how much concrete to spread, or by
the time a machinist is doing anything beyond setting up the machine
according to what somebody else told him, a little bit of algebra and
trig becomes worth whatever difficulty was involved in learning it.
It's pretty much a requirement.

I finally took a community college class in welding last summer -- one
of the most difficult courses I've ever taken, and I know I'll never
be good at it (my welds at this point have improved all the way to
"pathetic"), but even the little things I can do with a MIG have made
it possible to take on projects I never could before. Struggling
through some algebra and trig is much the same.

What I'm saying is that the people with ability at math aren't "struggling"
with it. They're naturally good at it. They like it. It's fun for them and
they learn it quickly. There is a big difference between those guys, who
tend to go on to technical careers, and those who fight their way through
the courses. I had to fight my way through algebra and geometry so I know
what it's like to have to work through classes where you don't really
comprehend what's going on. Did I pass? Yeah, but barely and I didn't like
it because I sucked. I always envied the guys who were getting the "A"
grades but I knew I never could. On the other hand, once we left math and
went to all the other classes, guess who did better? The guys who were so
good in math were not so great in the other things like language. Which
shows, I think, that it's all about what your talent is and not so much
about how hard you work. But as we all know harder work usually pays off,
but not always.

Hawke

"Hawke" wrote in message
...

What I'm saying is that the people with ability at math aren't
"struggling"
with it. They're naturally good at it. They like it. It's fun for them and
they learn it quickly. There is a big difference between those guys, who
tend to go on to technical careers, and those who fight their way through
the courses. I had to fight my way through algebra and geometry so I know
what it's like to have to work through classes where you don't really
comprehend what's going on. Did I pass? Yeah, but barely and I didn't like
it because I sucked. I always envied the guys who were getting the "A"
grades but I knew I never could. On the other hand, once we left math and
went to all the other classes, guess who did better? The guys who were so
good in math were not so great in the other things like language. Which
shows, I think, that it's all about what your talent is and not so much
about how hard you work. But as we all know harder work usually pays off,
but not always.

Hawke



Math is difficult for some because they get lost in the symbols and formulas
that are substitutes for things in real life.

As an example when you ask what do you have to add to 10 to get 15 most can
easily grasp the question and give you the correct answer. But when you ask
them to solve for n where 10 + n = 15, they get lost because they are
convinced that algebra is hard.


--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Roger Shoaf wrote:
"Hawke" wrote in message
...

What I'm saying is that the people with ability at math aren't

"struggling"

with it. They're naturally good at it.

(...)

Math is difficult for some because they get lost in the symbols and formulas
that are substitutes for things in real life.

As an example when you ask what do you have to add to 10 to get 15 most can
easily grasp the question and give you the correct answer. But when you ask
them to solve for n where 10 + n = 15, they get lost because they are
convinced that algebra is hard.

They are convinced because we convinced them.

The paradigm needs to shift. We refuse to provide students with
reasons why 'Numeracy is a Good Thing' (TM) at an age that is appropriate.
Before the age of 12, most students are largely incapable of abstract thought (1)

I infer this means there will always be students left confused and frustrated
by their inability to grasp math subjects. They simply haven't yet developed
the necessary brain hardware to relate a 'law' to a given situation or even
substitute a value for a symbol, as you mentioned. They do have the necessary
capacity to remember that math is cryptic, opaque and frustrating however.

This is the lesson we inadvertently teach.





(1) (Piaget, 1960)

--Winston

Chapter 0 Null and Void

Zero hit the USS Yorktown like a torpedo. On September 21, 1997, -while
cruising off the coast of Virginia, the billion-dollar missile cruiser
shuddered to a halt. Yorktown was dead in the water.

Warships are designed to withstand the strike of a torpedo or the blast
of a mine. Though it -was armored against weapons, nobody had thought to
defend the Yorktown from zero. It was a grave mistake.

The Yorktown's computers had just received new software that was
controlling the engines. Unfortunately, nobody had spotted the time bomb
lurking in the code, a zero that engineers -were supposed to remove
while installing the software. But for one reason or another, the zero
was overlooked, and it stayed hidden in the code. Hidden, that is, until
the software called it into memory—and choked.

When the Yorktown's computer system tried to divide by zero, 80,000
horsepower instantly became worthless. It took nearly three hours to
attach emergency controls to the engines, and the Yorktown then limped
into port. Engineers spent two days getting rid of the zero, repairing
the engines, and putting the Yorktown back into fighting trim.

No other number can do such damage. Computer failures like the one that
struck the Yorktown are just a faint shadow of the power of zero.
Cultures girded themselves against zero, and philosophies crumbled under
its influence, for zero is different from the other numbers. It provides
a glimpse of the ineffable and the infinite. This is -why it has been
feared and hated—and outlawed.

This is the story of zero, from its birth in ancient times to its growth
and nourishment in the East, its struggle for acceptance in Europe, its
ascendance in the West, and its ever-present threat to modern physics.

It is the story of the people who battled over the meaning of the
mysterious number—the scholars and mystics, the scientists and
clergymen—-who each tried to understand zero. It is the story of the
Western world's attempts to shield itself unsuccessfully (and sometimes
violently) from an Eastern idea. And it is a history of the paradoxes
posed by an innocent-looking number, rattling even this century's
brightest minds and threatening to unravel the whole framework of
scientific thought.

Zero is powerful because it is infinity's twin. They are equal and
opposite, yin and yang. They are equally paradoxical and troubling. The
biggest questions in science and religion are about nothingness and
eternity, the void and the infinite, zero and infinity. The clashes over
zero were the battles that shook the foundations of philosophy, of
science, of mathematics, and of religion. Underneath every revolution
lay a zero — and an infinity.

Zero was at the heart of the battle between East and West. Zero -was at
the center of the struggle between religion and science. Zero became the
language of nature and the most important tool in mathematics. And the
most profound problems in physics—the dark core of a black hole and the
brilliant flash of the big bang — are struggles to defeat zero.

Yet through all its history, despite the rejection and the exile, zero
has always defeated those who opposed it. Humanity could never force
zero to fit its philosophies. Instead, zero shaped humanity's view of
the universe—and of God.

cavelamb himself wrote:

Zero hit the USS Yorktown like a torpedo. On September 21, 1997, -while
cruising off the coast of Virginia, the billion-dollar missile cruiser
shuddered to a halt. Yorktown was dead in the water.


It is tempting to bash windows but I guess it would not be fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)

Wes

Having a Degree in Mathematics and one in Physics, I can attest that
for the most part the two don't mix overly well.

Along in the Calculus versions of Physics from Freshmen year for some
and Sophomore year for others and perhaps the third year for most.
Physics when calculating general answers to larger problems tend to
truncate and reduce - as the part of the formula Math has is much much
smaller than the measurement error and therefore not useful.

Since I had it in Physics before Math - by a year so it was well in use,
Math was touch on me. It wasn't just simple numbers but formula compaction
that seemed to snare me in Math. Once the math moved into other topics,
I continued math development in Physics, the great wellspring of math itself.

Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Roger Shoaf wrote:
"Hawke" wrote in message
...
What I'm saying is that the people with ability at math aren't
"struggling"
with it. They're naturally good at it. They like it. It's fun for them and
they learn it quickly. There is a big difference between those guys, who
tend to go on to technical careers, and those who fight their way through
the courses. I had to fight my way through algebra and geometry so I know
what it's like to have to work through classes where you don't really
comprehend what's going on. Did I pass? Yeah, but barely and I didn't like
it because I sucked. I always envied the guys who were getting the "A"
grades but I knew I never could. On the other hand, once we left math and
went to all the other classes, guess who did better? The guys who were so
good in math were not so great in the other things like language. Which
shows, I think, that it's all about what your talent is and not so much
about how hard you work. But as we all know harder work usually pays off,
but not always.

Hawke



Math is difficult for some because they get lost in the symbols and formulas
that are substitutes for things in real life.

As an example when you ask what do you have to add to 10 to get 15 most can
easily grasp the question and give you the correct answer. But when you ask
them to solve for n where 10 + n = 15, they get lost because they are
convinced that algebra is hard.




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http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Wes wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:


Zero hit the USS Yorktown like a torpedo. On September 21, 1997, -while
cruising off the coast of Virginia, the billion-dollar missile cruiser
shuddered to a halt. Yorktown was dead in the water.



It is tempting to bash windows but I guess it would not be fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)

Wes

Nothing there, Wes!

But it did provide a link to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero

--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
John Wayne

Wes wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:


Zero hit the USS Yorktown like a torpedo. On September 21, 1997, -while
cruising off the coast of Virginia, the billion-dollar missile cruiser
shuddered to a halt. Yorktown was dead in the water.



It is tempting to bash windows but I guess it would not be fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)

Wes


Sorry ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_%28CG-48%29

On Jun 4, 11:40 am, "Hawke" wrote:
But does everyone need to take
calculus every year in high school? As the situations where this kind of
information is so small and in such specialized areas wouldn't students be
better off learning something that would be useful to all of them?

It's been pointed out that this wasn't actually an application of
calculus.

But speaking of calculus, my experience was that everyone on the
serious side of the college track slogged through a very laborious pre-
calculus course, but only some went on to take calculus afterwards.
The problem is that those who didn't didn't get the benefit of all
their hard preparatory work. All they saw was really, really mess
algebra. That 'aha' moment when they teach you that you can cross out
some of the terms and form a simpler expression, and then show you
it's implications graphically and in the real world, was reserved for
those who decided to tackle the dreaded calculus.

In other words, I think the school got it backwards. Teach the
essential ideas of calculus in the required course - explain
derivatives and integrals graphically - show how they relate to the
real world. But save the algebraic grunge work of deriving it all
for the elective class. Everyone else can be shown a few simple
integrals, and then how to use numeric methods to solve anything not
readily apparent by inspection.

When not encumbered by the whole algebra thing, calculus is actually
quite approachable, and really kind of cool. But instead of sharing
that, we keep the nifty implications as a little inside reward for
those willing to slog through the math of deriving them.

"Hawke" writes:

Yep, you get it. I think math and music are a lot alike. Some people seem to
have a talent for one or the other, sometimes both.

Music is a *really* bad example for your point -- after a life of
being convinced I couldn't sing, a director got me to try out for the
role of Senex in "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum"; his
music director had infinite patience, with the result that since then
I've been the Captain in "Anything Goes" and am now the Court Clerk in
"Hello Dolly" (see http://lcctnm.org/).

I'll never sing well, and I'll never know if I could have learned to sing
well if I'd started when I was 10 instead of 49 -- but, to my great
(and happy) surprise, I can hit a note.

If you are lucky you
just seem to get how it works. I've always found that the people that are
good at math have a different type of brain. Understanding it and finding it
kind of easy seems to be something you either have or you don't. When you
have the math type brain you can just whiz from one level of math to the
next.

And if you don't have the math type brain, you can fight and struggle
and be able to do it better than you can now as a result. And that's
worth it.

The ordinary person just doesn't see what is clear to you. Because of
this the people who are math types tend to think those who don't get it are
stupid but that's not the case. I think it's just a different type of
thinking. Artists are similar. A lot of art is learned but the really good
artists and musicians have a talent for it from a young age. Mathematicians
seem to be the same. You have a grasp of it right away or you don't. If you
find math easy and you learn it quickly consider yourself lucky. The rest of
us don't have that talent. We may be able to learn some of it after a lot of
hard work but it never comes easy like it does to others. But I still think
that making everyone take calculus like they are doing in China is a waste
of most student's time. There are better alternatives for most than spending
that much time on math.

First, let me assure you, *everybody* hits math concepts they find
hard. But for everything in the world (math, music, art, machining),
if you work at it you can be better than you are now.

On Jun 4, 10:49 pm, Bruno wrote:

Edison hired a mathematician to calculate the volume of a light bulb.
After two weeks, the mathematician hadn't quite come up with the
answer. So Edison filled the bulb with water, poured the contents into
a beaker and checked the scale. Can't say it was that accurate, but
still a nice story.

Actually it was probably more accurate, as getting and using enough
dimensions to characterize what was probably not a simple or regular
shape would be a real pain.

"Hawke" writes:

What I'm saying is that the people with ability at math aren't "struggling"
with it.

Look, I've spent enough time around people who are better at math than
me, and enough time around people who find 2+2 to be a challenge, to
know better.

They're naturally good at it. They like it. It's fun for them and
they learn it quickly. There is a big difference between those guys, who
tend to go on to technical careers, and those who fight their way through
the courses.

If they didn't find it fun, they wouldn't be math majors (they sure
aren't math majors because it's where the jobs are!). But yes, they
spend a *lot* of time and struggle on it.

I had to fight my way through algebra and geometry so I know
what it's like to have to work through classes where you don't really
comprehend what's going on. Did I pass? Yeah, but barely and I didn't like
it because I sucked. I always envied the guys who were getting the "A"
grades but I knew I never could. On the other hand, once we left math and
went to all the other classes, guess who did better? The guys who were so
good in math were not so great in the other things like language. Which
shows, I think, that it's all about what your talent is and not so much
about how hard you work. But as we all know harder work usually pays off,
but not always.

Yes, yes, yes. And I found ancient history a lot harder than the
history majors in class with me. And I found formal language theory a
lot harder than the future CS theoreticians who were in class with
me. And in both case, working at it did indeed pay off.

I just learned something new about calculus.

The word is Latin for pebble.

In article ,
Wes wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:

Zero hit the USS Yorktown like a torpedo. On September 21, 1997, -while
cruising off the coast of Virginia, the billion-dollar missile cruiser
shuddered to a halt. Yorktown was dead in the water.


It is tempting to bash windows but I guess it would not be fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)

The core problem was the the use of a desktop computer system in an
application for which it was ill suited. The good news is that aside
from some careers, nobody was hurt, but being without power, steering,
sensors, and weapons is the kind of thing that causes captains to wake
up screaming.

The SmartShip program died of injuries received in the Yorktown
incident, and is survived by a program of the same name that does not
involve control of key shipboard systems.

Joe Gwinn

Four or so months ago I was in the bank putting in a check in my business
account. For some reason, I walked inside. Dumb.

A man in his 50's I'd guess had a stack of checks (to be cashed) and a stack
of bills to be paid. The teller knew him by name and knew what was what.
He could not add or subtract and didn't know his numbers well.

She did it all for him - kept his books and paid his bills. He had a lawn
service. Good for him. I admire people that overcome and I was more than
surprised in the actions of the bank. Perhaps he was someones son or Dad
or perhaps he was a customer from day 1. Maybe a stroke.

I waited and another teller from the auto section came over and took my
money.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
"Hawke" writes:

What I'm saying is that the people with ability at math aren't "struggling"
with it.

Look, I've spent enough time around people who are better at math than
me, and enough time around people who find 2+2 to be a challenge, to
know better.

They're naturally good at it. They like it. It's fun for them and
they learn it quickly. There is a big difference between those guys, who
tend to go on to technical careers, and those who fight their way through
the courses.

If they didn't find it fun, they wouldn't be math majors (they sure
aren't math majors because it's where the jobs are!). But yes, they
spend a *lot* of time and struggle on it.

I had to fight my way through algebra and geometry so I know
what it's like to have to work through classes where you don't really
comprehend what's going on. Did I pass? Yeah, but barely and I didn't like
it because I sucked. I always envied the guys who were getting the "A"
grades but I knew I never could. On the other hand, once we left math and
went to all the other classes, guess who did better? The guys who were so
good in math were not so great in the other things like language. Which
shows, I think, that it's all about what your talent is and not so much
about how hard you work. But as we all know harder work usually pays off,
but not always.

Yes, yes, yes. And I found ancient history a lot harder than the
history majors in class with me. And I found formal language theory a
lot harder than the future CS theoreticians who were in class with
me. And in both case, working at it did indeed pay off.


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"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
I just learned something new about calculus.

The word is Latin for pebble.


Now I know why the doctors said I had calculus in my kidneys.

Hawke

Steve Austin wrote:
Bob La Londe wrote:

"Ignoramus27711" wrote in
message ...

Do you remember

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Pick any two and calculate the third. I used to use it all the time
in my dad's hardware store to calculate how much guy wire somebody
needed to support an antenna tower. Same principle, different
application.




That's not algebra. That's geometry.


A^2 +B^2 -C^2 = 0

On 2008-06-14, cavelamb himself wrote:
Steve Austin wrote:
Bob La Londe wrote:

"Ignoramus27711" wrote in
message ...

Do you remember

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Pick any two and calculate the third. I used to use it all the time
in my dad's hardware store to calculate how much guy wire somebody
needed to support an antenna tower. Same principle, different
application.




That's not algebra. That's geometry.


A^2 +B^2 -C^2 = 0

looks like algebra

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

That is Algebra.

Geometry is the angle that distends B is a , that distends A is b.
When the length of A=B then a=b and the angle of a or b = 45 degrees.....

There is(are) a trig version(s)

There are other math versions as well.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus20633 wrote:
On 2008-06-14, cavelamb himself wrote:
Steve Austin wrote:
Bob La Londe wrote:

"Ignoramus27711" wrote in
message ...

Do you remember

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Pick any two and calculate the third. I used to use it all the time
in my dad's hardware store to calculate how much guy wire somebody
needed to support an antenna tower. Same principle, different
application.



That's not algebra. That's geometry.

A^2 +B^2 -C^2 = 0

looks like algebra



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Steve Austin writes:

Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus27711" wrote in
message ...

Do you remember

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Pick any two and calculate the third. I used to use it all the time
in my dad's hardware store to calculate how much guy wire somebody
needed to support an antenna tower. Same principle, different
application.

That's not algebra. That's geometry.

No, actually. He's solving a geometry problem, but he set up an
algebraic equation.

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:57:05 -0600, the renowned Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

Steve Austin writes:

Bob La Londe wrote:
"Ignoramus27711" wrote in
message ...

Do you remember

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Pick any two and calculate the third. I used to use it all the time
in my dad's hardware store to calculate how much guy wire somebody
needed to support an antenna tower. Same principle, different
application.

That's not algebra. That's geometry.

No, actually. He's solving a geometry problem, but he set up an
algebraic equation.

It's only an approximate solution to the guy wire problem because a
hanging wire forms a catenary not a straight line, so the actual wire
will end up being somewhat longer.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Jun 15, 8:13*am, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

It's only an approximate solution to the guy wire problem because a
hanging wire forms a catenary not a straight line, so the actual wire
will end up being somewhat longer. *

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

As a math problem it's inaccurate but as an engineering solution it
tells you the minimum wire length. Then add 10% for the end fittings
etc. Different mindset.

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:57:05 -0600, the renowned Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:


Steve Austin writes:


Bob La Londe wrote:

"Ignoramus27711" wrote in
message ...

Do you remember

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Pick any two and calculate the third. I used to use it all the time
in my dad's hardware store to calculate how much guy wire somebody
needed to support an antenna tower. Same principle, different
application.

That's not algebra. That's geometry.

No, actually. He's solving a geometry problem, but he set up an
algebraic equation.


It's only an approximate solution to the guy wire problem because a
hanging wire forms a catenary not a straight line, so the actual wire
will end up being somewhat longer.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany


Uh, guys?

A^2 + B^2 = C^2 solves for the AREA of the Hypotenuse Squared...


Sqrt(A^2 + B^2) = C gives the length of the Hypotenuse.
or, more familiar arrangement C= Sqrt(A^2 + B^2)



Richard

On Jun 7, 2:11 am, Marv wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:34:35 -0600, Lew Hartswick



wrote:
Hawke wrote:
"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
news:4rCdnSQ8q5oomtXVnZ2dnUVZ_hjinZ2d@earthlink. com...

Hawke wrote:




Most people who claim that their brain simply can't comprehend
mathematics, or, for that matter, any abstraction, are simply making
an excuse for the fact that they're just too lazy to actually apply
themselves to learning.

What a load of rubbish! - but if your good, for ANY reason at
understanding mathematics, it makes rational sense. To me, and I
suspect many others, its chicken tracks...

Sorry, but I am a concrete, linear thinker - (the extreme of this is
the Wingers) - if I cant have a mental picture of whats happening in
my mind, I cannot understand it. I can do it with practical electronic
repairs on the bench in front of me, and starting to do it with
solving how to do metalworking stuff - but higher mathematics,
particularly in electronics - no way - how do you imagine imaginary
numbers - positive and negative phasors and vectors - +j -j - I KNOW
they mean something, but its just chicken tracks to me.

And I am NOT lazy - have spent years trying to understand, keep on
hoping that, one day, I will find a textbook that I can actually
comprehend what its all about.....I am stuck on the level I am because
I cant do higher maths, thats why I am a technician and not an
engineer....

My metalworking course at school had a maths unit - primary school
stuff, and a fair bit of geometry. Got a pass, (well, nearly everyone
does...) but certainly haven't learnt very much in a PRACTICAL sense -
cant make the brain connections.

Andrew VK3BFA.

And if I have stuffed up the cutting and quoting bit above and got the
names wrong - sorry, no offense meant.

SteveB wrote:
wrote


i remember that a very good book that helped me understand was



Pocket Ref by Thomas Glover. Lots of useful info in there if you know how
to digest it.

Steve



Why not get it from the source?

Mathematica Principa...

Isaac Newton

On Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keyw...c ipia&page=1