wrote:
On May 20, 10:21 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

I am not sure where you got your data.

From the two best rating sources in North America.
One qualifies or "rates" sales and one doesn't.
Zillow is an internet sales tool.

I just used Zillow

Sorry but I have to say - HAHAHAHAHAH.

and it
shows California as having declined 16% in the last year and about
15% in the last 9 months. So that would be about a rate of 20
percent per year for the last 9 months.

OK. eye roll

But over the last 5 years it has gained
30%.

As has my Sister in Law's ass.

And I still don't know where you got your data.

That is your problem, not mine.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 21 May 2008 09:42:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

snip

Why would you be amazed that people continue behaviors that are
rewarded?

Not because they're rewarded, but because the practices themselves
*work*. Like conservative investors, I tend to believe that the
fundamentals will win out in the end.

In fact, they probably will. But the consequences of the fundamentals
winning out in the end is not pretty for the rest of us.

Not pretty at all Ed.
Especially not in my case.
By June's end I'll look great on paper but the fact of the matter is that
I'll have a ton of receivables and a wad of inventory without much more than
six or seven months of cash on hand. My inventory, by it's very nature,
isn't really either fungible or liquid. Should the **** really hit the fan
this summer, and I think it actually will do so in July, I could be homeless
by years end or so. That is the "worst case" and unlikely but it is a
possibility.That'd be something. I'm a little long in the tooth to be trying
on a new adventure.

Anyone thinking that we are all going to see the US snap ot of this has a
screw loose.
The markets have been building in huge structural impediments to anything
like a recovery.
2012 oil is headed for $150.00 by the end of this month.....

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 21 May 2008 09:42:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

snip

Why would you be amazed that people continue behaviors that are
rewarded?

Not because they're rewarded, but because the practices themselves
*work*. Like conservative investors, I tend to believe that the
fundamentals will win out in the end.

In fact, they probably will. But the consequences of the fundamentals
winning out in the end is not pretty for the rest of us.

Not pretty at all Ed.
Especially not in my case.
By June's end I'll look great on paper but the fact of the matter is that
I'll have a ton of receivables and a wad of inventory without much more
than
six or seven months of cash on hand. My inventory, by it's very nature,
isn't really either fungible or liquid. Should the **** really hit the fan
this summer, and I think it actually will do so in July, I could be
homeless
by years end or so. That is the "worst case" and unlikely but it is a
possibility.That'd be something. I'm a little long in the tooth to be
trying
on a new adventure.

Eh, teeth have nothing to do with it. I'm looking for something new to do,
myself. Besides, there's a very encouraging piece in the NYT today that
summarizes some new research about how much smarter we old farts are than
the whippersnappers ("Older Brain Really May Be a Wiser Brain"):

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/he...b&e i=5087%0A


Anyone thinking that we are all going to see the US snap ot of this has a
screw loose.
The markets have been building in huge structural impediments to anything
like a recovery.
2012 oil is headed for $150.00 by the end of this month.....

I heard on WCBS radio that motor scooters are selling like hotcakes. Maybe
we're becoming Italy without the great food. g

I miss my old Honda S90 right now...and my 997cc English Ford.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 21 May 2008 09:42:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

snip

Eh, teeth have nothing to do with it. I'm looking for something new
to do, myself. Besides, there's a very encouraging piece in the NYT
today that summarizes some new research about how much smarter we old
farts are than the whippersnappers ("Older Brain Really May Be a
Wiser Brain"):


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/he...b&e i=5087%0A


Interesting.
I've looked into brain plasticity in the last year due to a PBS fundraising
program that I watched a little of.
It's an interesting subject.


Anyone thinking that we are all going to see the US snap ot of this
has a screw loose.
The markets have been building in huge structural impediments to
anything like a recovery.
2012 oil is headed for $150.00 by the end of this month.....

I heard on WCBS radio that motor scooters are selling like hotcakes.
Maybe we're becoming Italy without the great food. g

Or scooter manufacturers.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Ed Huntress wrote:

John, I can truly say this is like finding out that when you come
home at night your house looks normal and everyone sits down to
dinner to talk about their day, but that one day you come home at
1:00 PM and find that it's really a crack house and gambling den that
you live in, with fold-down gaming tables and so on, that are all
neatly rolled up and put away before you regularly get home.

That's a shame Ed.
I believe you do find all of this distressing.


The scale of it makes me angry. The feeble reaction of the Fed, Treasury,
and Congress annoys me. But it's not something I sit here and worry about.
I'm more worried that nothing will change in November.

--
Ed Huntress




You are not alone in THAT particular fear, Ed.

I think the anger comes about from a feeling of helplessness -
no idea how to correct the situation.

If John and George are right, we are still in the foreplay stage.

Scary...


Richard

cavelamb himself wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:

John, I can truly say this is like finding out that when you come
home at night your house looks normal and everyone sits down to
dinner to talk about their day, but that one day you come home at
1:00 PM and find that it's really a crack house and gambling den
that you live in, with fold-down gaming tables and so on, that are
all neatly rolled up and put away before you regularly get home.

That's a shame Ed.
I believe you do find all of this distressing.


The scale of it makes me angry. The feeble reaction of the Fed,
Treasury, and Congress annoys me. But it's not something I sit here
and worry about. I'm more worried that nothing will change in
November.

--
Ed Huntress




You are not alone in THAT particular fear, Ed.

I think the anger comes about from a feeling of helplessness -
no idea how to correct the situation.

If John and George are right, we are still in the foreplay stage.

Scary...


Richard,
This "conversation" is one that the three of us have been having for years
and it's all been public.
At least my partipation has been, and pretty much of the cuff.
Ed's view is heavily influenced by his career in journalism and his
concomitant ability to ferret out numbers and infer fact.IOW, Econ.

George is an educator, regardless his career, it's what he likes and is good
at. He's a gatherer.

You can't figure all of this out rationally.
I've made the point more than once that this entire situation only computes
as cultural anthropology.

The "foreplay stage" began in 1974 as ERISA.
That statement assumes that you want a start date certain as a reference.

We have reached the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the end, of
foreplay phase.
It's an important distinction.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Sad thing on the scooters - more pollution. Just like China.
Here we go backwards. At least better mileage.


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 21 May 2008 09:42:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

snip
Why would you be amazed that people continue behaviors that are
rewarded?
Not because they're rewarded, but because the practices themselves
*work*. Like conservative investors, I tend to believe that the
fundamentals will win out in the end.

In fact, they probably will. But the consequences of the fundamentals
winning out in the end is not pretty for the rest of us.
Not pretty at all Ed.
Especially not in my case.
By June's end I'll look great on paper but the fact of the matter is that
I'll have a ton of receivables and a wad of inventory without much more
than
six or seven months of cash on hand. My inventory, by it's very nature,
isn't really either fungible or liquid. Should the **** really hit the fan
this summer, and I think it actually will do so in July, I could be
homeless
by years end or so. That is the "worst case" and unlikely but it is a
possibility.That'd be something. I'm a little long in the tooth to be
trying
on a new adventure.

Eh, teeth have nothing to do with it. I'm looking for something new to do,
myself. Besides, there's a very encouraging piece in the NYT today that
summarizes some new research about how much smarter we old farts are than
the whippersnappers ("Older Brain Really May Be a Wiser Brain"):

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/he...b&e i=5087%0A

Anyone thinking that we are all going to see the US snap ot of this has a
screw loose.
The markets have been building in huge structural impediments to anything
like a recovery.
2012 oil is headed for $150.00 by the end of this month.....

I heard on WCBS radio that motor scooters are selling like hotcakes. Maybe
we're becoming Italy without the great food. g

I miss my old Honda S90 right now...and my 997cc English Ford.

--
Ed Huntress




----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

On May 21, 6:40 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

And I still don't know where you got your data.

That is your problem, not mine.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

From one of you other posts, you seem to have more problems than I
even if I don't know where you got your data.

Dan

John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:


John, I can truly say this is like finding out that when you come
home at night your house looks normal and everyone sits down to
dinner to talk about their day, but that one day you come home at
1:00 PM and find that it's really a crack house and gambling den
that you live in, with fold-down gaming tables and so on, that are
all neatly rolled up and put away before you regularly get home.

That's a shame Ed.
I believe you do find all of this distressing.


The scale of it makes me angry. The feeble reaction of the Fed,
Treasury, and Congress annoys me. But it's not something I sit here
and worry about. I'm more worried that nothing will change in
November.

--
Ed Huntress




You are not alone in THAT particular fear, Ed.

I think the anger comes about from a feeling of helplessness -
no idea how to correct the situation.

If John and George are right, we are still in the foreplay stage.

Scary...



Richard,
This "conversation" is one that the three of us have been having for years
and it's all been public.
At least my partipation has been, and pretty much of the cuff.
Ed's view is heavily influenced by his career in journalism and his
concomitant ability to ferret out numbers and infer fact.IOW, Econ.

George is an educator, regardless his career, it's what he likes and is good
at. He's a gatherer.

You can't figure all of this out rationally.
I've made the point more than once that this entire situation only computes
as cultural anthropology.

The "foreplay stage" began in 1974 as ERISA.
That statement assumes that you want a start date certain as a reference.

We have reached the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the end, of
foreplay phase.
It's an important distinction.



Copy that.
After all, foreplay is fun!

Then comes penetration and a whole lot of moaning and thrashing around.


Ah well, remember when we all laughed about "getting the government we
deserved"?


Richard

On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:21:14 -0500, the renowned "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Sad thing on the scooters - more pollution. Just like China.
Here we go backwards. At least better mileage.

Been to China recently? Most of the scooters are *electric*.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
Sad thing on the scooters - more pollution. Just like China.
Here we go backwards. At least better mileage.

These are four-strokes, not two-strokes like the Vespas and Lambrettas that
were around when we were kids. They sell Vespas at my local Honda Powerhouse
and I recently looked them over. They look almost the same on the outside,
but these are more sophisticated machines on the inside.

--
Ed Huntress

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:21:14 -0500, the renowned "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Sad thing on the scooters - more pollution. Just like China.
Here we go backwards. At least better mileage.

Been to China recently? Most of the scooters are *electric*.

What kind of batteries do they use?

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:17:39 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

snip
If John and George are right, we are still in the foreplay stage.
I expect wham, bam, thank you ma'am to start any second.

Scary...


Richard,
This "conversation" is one that the three of us have been having for years
and it's all been public.
At least my partipation has been, and pretty much of the cuff.
Ed's view is heavily influenced by his career in journalism and his
concomitant ability to ferret out numbers and infer fact.IOW, Econ.

George is an educator, regardless his career, it's what he likes and is good
at. He's a gatherer.

You can't figure all of this out rationally.
I've made the point more than once that this entire situation only computes
as cultural anthropology.

The "foreplay stage" began in 1974 as ERISA.
That statement assumes that you want a start date certain as a reference.

We have reached the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the end, of
foreplay phase.
It's an important distinction.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
============
Your observation about cultural anthropology offering much better
insight into the current socio-economic conditions appears to be
dead on.

Currently the US economy appears to be organized as some sort of
"cargo cult," where goods just appear as a gift from the gods to
individuals who have proven themselves "worthy."

"Cargo Cults" historically have been most noticeable when
traditional society come into contact with more technically
advanced ones, and both the creation and delivery/payment of the
new "magic" goods are seen as a gift of the gods, as no one is
ever seen creating or working to pay for these goods.

There are over 190k google references to "cargo cults."

Note that the "modern" western societies appear to be doing
everything they can to deindustralize and eliminate any general
knowledge of such basic knowledge as where does food come from,
where does electricity come from, where does gasoline come from,
where do clothes come from, etc.

There also appears to have been a huge upsurge in fetishism, at
least in the United States, where certain goods such as a Rolex
watch or Gucci shoes [even better a platinum American Express
card] are seen as emblems that one of the elite and chosen to
received the "magic" goods when the ship comes in or the airplane
lands and off-loads.

one reference for "cargo cults" is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult which observes
"The most widely known period of cargo cult activity, however,
was in the years during and after World War II. First the
Japanese arrived with a great deal of unknown equipment and later
Allied forces also used the islands in the same way. The vast
amounts of war materiel that were airdropped onto these islands
during the Pacific campaign against the Empire of Japan
necessarily meant drastic changes to the lifestyle of the
islanders, many of whom had never seen Westerners or Japanese
before. Manufactured clothing, medicine, canned food, tents,
weapons, and other useful goods arrived in vast quantities to
equip soldiers. Some of it was shared with the islanders who were
their guides and hosts. With the end of the war the air bases
were abandoned, and "cargo" was no longer being dropped.

In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes
or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had
seen the soldiers, sailors, and airmen use. They carved
headphones from wood and wore them while sitting in fabricated
control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on
the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up
runways and lighthouses. The cult members thought that the
foreigners had some special connection to the deities and
ancestors of the natives, who were the only beings powerful
enough to produce such riches.

In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size replicas of
airplanes out of straw and created new military-style landing
strips, hoping to attract more airplanes. Ultimately, although
these practices did not bring about the return of the airplanes
that brought such marvelous cargo during the war, they did have
the effect of eradicating most of the religious practices that
had existed prior to the war."

===========
I am struck by how closely these practices parallel much of the
current economic and industrial development activities in the
United States.

As an educator, I must plead guilty to
reinforcing/indoctriniating many of my students in ritual,
repetitive, and irrational behaviors that support/promote such
"sympathetic magic.".

Other very inteligent individuals have also noticed the huge
growth of the |American and norther European national cargo cults
such as Richard Feynman at least as far back as 1974
http://wwwcdf.pd.infn.it/~loreti/science.html

Other URLs to get you started if you are interested in the new
national "cargo cult" include
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/john.html
http://www.afa.org/magazine/1991/0191cargo.asp
http://www.apts.edu/jam/99-2/M-McDowell.pdf
also see
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/005450.html


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Spehro Pefhany wrote in
:

Been to China recently? Most of the scooters are *electric*.

Have you tried riding one of the electric scooters?

While they might be acceptable for the under-120# crowd, their range is
extremely limited with a 250# rider.

About 1 mile, in fact, before the batteries need a recharge and that only
on new batteries.

BTDT - gave away a pair of them.

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:17:39 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

snip

Other very inteligent individuals have also noticed the huge
growth of the |American and norther European national cargo cults
such as Richard Feynman

That is the guy!
I mentioned some time ago I'd read an analysis written in the late sixties
that concluded that the USSR couldn't possibly survive and that the basis
for this remarkable conclusion was culturalal. The work had been
commissioned by the US inteligence community and was ho hummed at the time.
When I brought this up I wasn't able to recall the author. It was Feynmann,
Richard Feynman , and he hit the nail squarely on the head.

Thank you George.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Yeah, hopefully you move toward maturity, which is antagonistic to
ideological extremism. Barry Goldwater, a conservative who favored the
right
to abortion and gays in the military, and Pay Moynihan, the liberal who
brought you "benign neglect" of inner-city ghettos, are two examples who
come to mind. Will's position on supporting single mothers is the same
kind
of thing.

This phenomenon is what I call the O'Reilly Factor, pretty original huh?
Bill O'Reilly, who everyone knows is a solid right wing conservative, likes
to pretend he's not because he has a couple of issues where is doesn't agree
with the bulk of his right wing pals, like he's anti death penalty. It's the
same with Goldwater or Moynihan. They had a couple of things where they went
completely contrary to where their party stands. But as a whole Goldwater
was a die hard conservative and Moynihan was a die hard liberal. One or two
issues that run against your basic philosophy don't negate what you are.
Some people like to think otherwise though.


He's sure a dyed in the wool conservative
though.

Yes, he's a conservative.


I'm just saying
that actually knowing someone isn't always as good as knowing
everything
about someone.

That sounds like an idea without a referrent. Actually knowing someone
is...actually knowing someone.

Like something is what it is?

It's hard to argue with that one, right? g

snip


Oh no, say it ain't so, and yes, you're irritating the hell out of me. A
baseball fan. I should have sensed it. Why someone with a brain likes
baseball is beyond my ken.

Pfhhht! It's a special kind of taste. Not everyone has what it takes. d8-)

Thank Zeus! But taste? I don't think it's taste. It's more like a bent.

After taking up basketball and tennis,
games where I actually did something during the game besides spectate, I
thought, how could I have ever liked baseball. I realize now that I did
it
because my Dad got me into it. When you grow up and try some other
sports
you too will figure out what a waste of time baseball is. There is hope
for
you yet.

FWIW, until five years ago I also was a certified E-level soccer coach.
And
I competed in tennis from ages 12 through 14.

So you do have some redeeming value after all. You'll still need to see the
light though on baseball. Once you look at it objectively you can't help but
notice it's the most boring sport in the world. Why else are statistics such
a big part of it? Because the minutia of statistics are actually more
exciting than the games themselves.


I hate to break the news but George Will is a stereotype.

He really wants to be Baseball Commissioner, but they turned him down. g

They probably don't want a white man for the job. It's probably being saved
for a double minority, a black woman like Condi Rice, who I hear wants the
job very much. With her connections and even though she's never played the
game she's a shoe in. I'm sure she'd do better there than in her last two
jobs where she stunk up the place. Which is what happens when you get picked
for who you know not what you know. I loved Donald Trump's assessment of her
stint as Sec. of State, "She can't make a deal!". That's absolute blasphemy
in his book.

Nobody calls him a
moderate. He is the new standard bearer for the party. When Bill Buckley
died the mantle of most conservative guy fell on Will's shoulders, right
where it belongs. And just because he utters a word or two that is out
of
step with the rest of the conservative crowd doesn't exactly set him
apart.
Besides, he probably had just finished listening to Peggy Noonan
blathering
on about Reagan and even he was appalled by her silliness. No, a few
blips
on the radar screen doesn't take away the central theme of an ideologue.
Will is far, far to the right of the spectrum, and that's a fact, Jack.

It's amazing to me how many conclusions you jump to with so little
information to go on, Hawke. You have a pigeonhole for everything and
everybody.

In the first place; a pigeonhole is a good place for keeping things, and
it's part of how I keep track of it all. Why else do you think they make
them? But what you think is a jump to a conclusion is anything but. It just
seems like that to you because you don't know everything that goes into the
space between my assertion and my conclusion. There is a lot in between.
You're just not privvy to it. If I don't have a good deal of evidence
between a premise and a conclusion I don't make it. I just don't always
include the part in the middle because the end is so much more important
than the middle. See?

Hawke

On Thu, 22 May 2008 23:02:15 -0400, the renowned "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:21:14 -0500, the renowned "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Sad thing on the scooters - more pollution. Just like China.
Here we go backwards. At least better mileage.

Been to China recently? Most of the scooters are *electric*.

What kind of batteries do they use?

Lead-acid, with compact switching chargers.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2008 23:02:15 -0400, the renowned "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:21:14 -0500, the renowned "Martin H.
Eastburn" wrote:

Sad thing on the scooters - more pollution. Just like China.
Here we go backwards. At least better mileage.

Been to China recently? Most of the scooters are *electric*.

What kind of batteries do they use?

Lead-acid, with compact switching chargers.

Evaleady?
LOL


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Fri, 23 May 2008 05:23:12 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2008 23:02:15 -0400, the renowned "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:21:14 -0500, the renowned "Martin H.
Eastburn" wrote:

Sad thing on the scooters - more pollution. Just like China.
Here we go backwards. At least better mileage.

Been to China recently? Most of the scooters are *electric*.

What kind of batteries do they use?

Lead-acid, with compact switching chargers.

Evaleady?
LOL

Lay-o-vac?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Thu, 22 May 2008 22:04:09 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, F.
George McDuffee quickly quoth:

Currently the US economy appears to be organized as some sort of
"cargo cult," where goods just appear as a gift from the gods to
individuals who have proven themselves "worthy."

"Cargo Cults" historically have been most noticeable when
traditional society come into contact with more technically
advanced ones, and both the creation and delivery/payment of the
new "magic" goods are seen as a gift of the gods, as no one is
ever seen creating or working to pay for these goods.

Har! Liberals got Cargo Cults! g


There are over 190k google references to "cargo cults."

Christopher Moore wrote a great book with a plot based around cargo
cults, _Island of the Sequined Love Nun_. It is -hilarious-. Two
thumbs up.


Note that the "modern" western societies appear to be doing
everything they can to deindustralize and eliminate any general
knowledge of such basic knowledge as where does food come from,
where does electricity come from, where does gasoline come from,
where do clothes come from, etc.

It certainly appears that way, doesn't it?




Other very inteligent individuals have also noticed the huge
growth of the |American and norther European national cargo cults
such as Richard Feynman at least as far back as 1974
http://wwwcdf.pd.infn.it/~loreti/science.html

Richard Feynman is always a good read, but I think I prefer Moore's
more humorous version.


http://www.apts.edu/jam/99-2/M-McDowell.pdf

This one comes up blank every time I attempt to view it.


--
The best and safest thing is to keep a balance in your life,
acknowledge the great powers around us and in us. If you can
do that, and live that way, you are really a wise man.
-- Euripides

On Fri, 23 May 2008 03:21:10 GMT, "RAM³"
wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote in
:

Been to China recently? Most of the scooters are *electric*.

Have you tried riding one of the electric scooters?

While they might be acceptable for the under-120# crowd, their range is
extremely limited with a 250# rider.

About 1 mile, in fact, before the batteries need a recharge and that only
on new batteries.

BTDT - gave away a pair of them.

1 mile is nothing in a Chinese city. Were these made-for-export
toys/crap?

They would probably sell for around US $800-$1000 apiece if imported.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Fri, 23 May 2008 05:23:12 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"John R. Carroll" quickly quoth:

What kind of batteries do they use?

Lead-acid, with compact switching chargers.

Evaleady?
LOL

Har! Two points, John. One for the pun, the other for the political
incorrectness.

--

"Be the change you want to see in the world." --Mahatma Gandhi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Spehro Pefhany wrote in
:

On Fri, 23 May 2008 03:21:10 GMT, "RAM³"
wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote in
m:

Been to China recently? Most of the scooters are *electric*.

Have you tried riding one of the electric scooters?

While they might be acceptable for the under-120# crowd, their range
is extremely limited with a 250# rider.

About 1 mile, in fact, before the batteries need a recharge and that
only on new batteries.

BTDT - gave away a pair of them.

1 mile is nothing in a Chinese city. Were these made-for-export
toys/crap?

They would probably sell for around US $800-$1000 apiece if imported.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

They originally sold - a few years ago - for around $400 but I bought them
for quite a bit less and, then, replaced the batteries.

They were supposed to have a 15-mile range at 15 MPH.

The new owner's grandkids are delighted with them and get the advertised
performance.

They, BTW, each weigh under 120#. G

FWIW, I'd bought them to take along with us when travelling with our 5th-
wheel trailer so as not to burn up a lot of diesel unnecessarily.

Just another good idea that didn't work in the real world.

On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:17:39 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:

John, I can truly say this is like finding out that when you come
home at night your house looks normal and everyone sits down to
dinner to talk about their day, but that one day you come home at
1:00 PM and find that it's really a crack house and gambling den
that you live in, with fold-down gaming tables and so on, that are
all neatly rolled up and put away before you regularly get home.

That's a shame Ed.
I believe you do find all of this distressing.


The scale of it makes me angry. The feeble reaction of the Fed,
Treasury, and Congress annoys me. But it's not something I sit here
and worry about. I'm more worried that nothing will change in
November.

--
Ed Huntress




You are not alone in THAT particular fear, Ed.

I think the anger comes about from a feeling of helplessness -
no idea how to correct the situation.

If John and George are right, we are still in the foreplay stage.

Scary...


Richard,
This "conversation" is one that the three of us have been having for years
and it's all been public.
At least my partipation has been, and pretty much of the cuff.
Ed's view is heavily influenced by his career in journalism and his
concomitant ability to ferret out numbers and infer fact.IOW, Econ.

George is an educator, regardless his career, it's what he likes and is good
at. He's a gatherer.

You can't figure all of this out rationally.
I've made the point more than once that this entire situation only computes
as cultural anthropology.

The "foreplay stage" began in 1974 as ERISA.
That statement assumes that you want a start date certain as a reference.

We have reached the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the end, of
foreplay phase.
It's an important distinction.


The fat lady has not yet sung.


Gunner

On May 21, 6:40 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
wrote:
On May 20, 10:21 pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

I am not sure where you got your data.

From the two best rating sources in North America.
One qualifies or "rates" sales and one doesn't.
Zillow is an internet sales tool.

I just used Zillow

Sorry but I have to say - HAHAHAHAHAH.

and it
shows California as having declined 16% in the last year and about
15% in the last 9 months. So that would be about a rate of 20
percent per year for the last 9 months.

OK. eye roll

But over the last 5 years it has gained
30%.

As has my Sister in Law's ass.

And I still don't know where you got your data.

That is your problem, not mine.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

I tried some other sources , S & P Case Shiller , and OFHEO and still
could not find anything that sounds as bad as you say.

Dan

On Fri, 23 May 2008 18:27:03 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
Steve Ackman quickly quoth:

In , on Fri, 23 May 2008
05:47:24 -0700, Larry Jaques, novalidaddress@di wrote:

http://www.apts.edu/jam/99-2/M-McDowell.pdf

This one comes up blank every time I attempt to view it.

Looks like a server problem. Try it he
http://wizard.dyndns.org/M-McDowell.pdf

Dat woiks!

--

"Be the change you want to see in the world." --Mahatma Gandhi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On Tue, 20 May 2008 12:29:21 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
My bet is on a CDS default resulting from a major municipal or
IDB default, possibly in California. Most likely not as a direct
result, but the consequence of the municipal bond insurer
attempting to exercise the CDS they have which "insured" the
bond, which exposes how "bare the cupboards are" and triggers a
mass stampede for the exits.

That's a possibility but the next round of mortgage defaults on mortgages
known as Alt-A's is where I'd place my money.
Sub primes were a small fraction of the entire mortgage market.
snip
==========
Unfortunately one does not exclude the other, and indeed one may
even trigger/promote the other(s).

Its always dangerous to extrapolate from a single data point, but
this could be the first drops of water seeping through the cracks
as the dam bursts, although Vallejo is not a major municipality.
-----------
Vallejo, Calif. files for bankruptcy protection

By TERENCE CHEA, Associated Press Writer Fri May 23, 5:36 PM ET

SAN FRANCISCO - The city of Vallejo filed for bankruptcy
protection Friday to deal with a ballooning budget deficit caused
by soaring employee costs and declining tax revenue.
The San Francisco Bay area suburb of about 120,000 residents
became the largest California city to seek bankruptcy protection.

Mayor Osby Davis said the city's attorneys filed papers seeking
Chapter 9 bankruptcy protection in federal court in Sacramento.
snip
for entire article click on
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080523/...O4E58xR vzwcF
-------------

Anybody know how much in municipal/ID/ED/revenue/authority/etc.
bonds may be involved, who the raters/insurer(s) are, and if any
CDSs are involved?

And what are the major political concerns while this is occurring
-- Gay marriage and gas prices!!!!!! Unfortunately, California
is unique only in that it first.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 20 May 2008 12:29:21 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
My bet is on a CDS default resulting from a major municipal or
IDB default, possibly in California. Most likely not as a direct
result, but the consequence of the municipal bond insurer
attempting to exercise the CDS they have which "insured" the
bond, which exposes how "bare the cupboards are" and triggers a
mass stampede for the exits.

That's a possibility but the next round of mortgage defaults on
mortgages known as Alt-A's is where I'd place my money.
Sub primes were a small fraction of the entire mortgage market.
snip
==========
Unfortunately one does not exclude the other, and indeed one may
even trigger/promote the other(s).

Its always dangerous to extrapolate from a single data point, but
this could be the first drops of water seeping through the cracks
as the dam bursts, although Vallejo is not a major municipality.

Like Orange was?

There are a lot of cities here that are in trouble. Cities, Counties and the
State.
Through the use of ballot initiatives, we've largely removed the
legistlatures ability to maneuver either in advance of or during a financial
calamity.
The State is seeing a tremendous decline in revenues. All of the churning in
the real estate market generated a tremendous inflow of revenue. A real
surplus. Unfortunately, it can't be saved. That's the law here. No "rainy
day" funds allowed.

Because of this, and many other mandates from the voters, the State is just
plain not paying the muni's what is due.
There just isn't any money.

Think about this. The Governor is trying to close a budget deficit that
can't be precisely estimated by selling future cash flows from the State
Lottery Commission to PE funds.
It isn't that people in charge don't know what to do. It's that their hands
have been tied by the law.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sat, 24 May 2008 08:37:02 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
It isn't that people in charge don't know what to do. It's that their hands
have been tied by the law.
snip
----------
Its not that the pols don't know what to do [i.e. spend less
money on government] it's that the pols *WONT* do it.

Rainy day funds are largely a snare and delusion. The pols spend
every cent as soon as it is available, as there are always
emergencies [even if they have to invent one). The only way a
"rainy day fund" *MIGHT* be made to work, is if contributions and
access is based on unemployment data, e.g. low unemployment =
high mandatory contributions to the fund, high unemployment =
graduated and limited access to the fund's assets. Another major
problem is what form should the "assets" take to insure that the
money [purchasing power] is there when needed? In too many
states, these funds have been deposited with politically
connected banks at below market or even zero rates.

Other states do not have Prop 13 type limitations on taxes, and
the results are still the same -- huge deficits in violation of
the state constitutions by several types of evasions, and rapidly
falling funding for core services such as ElHi education, and
public safety such as police, fire and public health, with
combined state and local sales taxes approaching European VAT
rates, in addition to ever increasing property and income tax
rates.

Proposition 13 was a noble effort to regain citizen control of
state and local government [without blood flowing in the
streets], but in hindsight it was fatally flawed in that it
attempted to limit governmental revenue but not expenditure,
relying on the other provisions of the state Constitution
prohibiting state deficits.

Because of the enormous sums involved [and profits to be made],
some of the smartest (or at least most cunning) people in the
state soon devised schemes to evade the "no deficit -- no debt"
provisions of the Constitution, with the results everyone can now
see. [Anyone remember John Mitchell (AG under Nixon) and his
invention of "moral equivalent" bonds to evade the New York State
voter bond approval requirements?]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_N._Mitchell
-----------
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=26432
snip
"It was Mitchell, as counsel to New York’s Gov. Nelson
Rockefeller, who came up with the idea that permitted the
governor to get around voter disapproval of his numerous bond
schemes. The concept: the moral obligation bond.

When he took office in January 1959, Rockefeller had grandiose
plans to rebuild housing in New York’s inner cities. As a
graduate of the Robert Moses school of issuing debt, he had the
state legislature create the Housing Finance Agency -- one of 230
authorities created during his 15 year tenure. John Mitchell was
called in for an opinion by Commissioner of Housing James Gaynor.
In Mitchell’s judgment, the “investment community was pretty sour
on that type of obligation” and would demand a high rate of
interest. To change the negative perception, he added language
to the authority’s indenture that included the “legislative
intent” to supply money, in the event of revenue shortfalls, to
meet principal and interest payments. Since the state had no
legal obligation to aid the authority, the concept became known
as “moral obligation.”
snip
----------------

IMNSHO what is now required, not only in California, but all
states is a "Super" Prop 13, that not only limits taxes/revenues
[watch out for those fees] but also limits not only state, but
also county and municipal expenditures to so much per capita,
adjusted for inflation. To avoid the typical
bureaucratic/admenistrative sabotage, it will also be necessary
to include provisions such as:

(1) No legislation other than a *BALANCED* budget may be
considered until a balanced budget is passed, unless an emergency
is declared by at least 3/4s of the legislators.

(2) If a balanced budget is not passed within 120 calendars days
from the start of a legislative session, the last balanced
budget, adjusted for inflation and population, is automatically
adopted, with the provision that if this would result in a
projected deficit, all appropriations are reduced pro-rata.

(3) "Core" governmental functions must receive priority such as
mandating at least 40% of funding for ElHi education, 20% for
public safety, etc, with 10% discretionary. Unfortunately, it
will be necessary to specify that priority must go to the people
that actually provide the services, e.g. requiring that 60% of
the ElHi funding must go to people teaching at least 750 hours
per year in the classroom, or that 60% of the public safety
funding must go to street level police, firemen, public health
workers, etc.

(4) Appropriated funds should be made available on a monthly
basis, proportional to the historic monthly
agency/departmental/funcitonal requirements [excluding the end of
year budget"dump"]. (This may be required to be reduced to weekly
(daily?), depending on results.)

(5) No unfunded mandates at any level, especially on individuals
or businesses.

(6) Given the increasing proportion of state funding in all areas
of local government, state wide contracts, setting uniform
compensation and benefits for most governmental employees such as
police, fire, teachers, EMTs, social workers, etc. The
governmental subdivisions will be prevented from attempting to
balance their budgets on the backs of their professional
employees, and conversely, this would reduce local "over
payments" for professional/unionized services.

{Now take a deep hit on the bong, inhale real deep, and hold it.
You too can see Super Prop 13 passing....]


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2008 08:37:02 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
It isn't that people in charge don't know what to do. It's that
their hands have been tied by the law.
snip
----------
Its not that the pols don't know what to do [i.e. spend less
money on government] it's that the pols *WONT* do it.

Well, there is that but spending increases in about two thirds of the budget
have been voter mandated.
The answer doesn't lie with "the pol's" George and thinking it does is a
real cop out.
The answer, of course, is with the voters.

You speak of these "Pols" as if they are an alien race that inhabits or
infests government.
I've never understood term limits and chalk them up to the same lazy
thinking that blames the "Pols" for everything.
You are an educator and ought to recognize an apt but lazy pupil when you
see one.

American government is more a reflection of the effort that goes into
insuring quality than anything.
No effort, no quality.
Just like kids and parents.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

Metal content? Priced steel, aluminum or copper lately?

On Sat, 24 May 2008 08:37:02 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Its always dangerous to extrapolate from a single data point, but
this could be the first drops of water seeping through the cracks
as the dam bursts, although Vallejo is not a major municipality.

Like Orange was?
==========
Interesting that you remember Orange County. It appears that the
Orange County Debacle and the LTCM disaster were linked [if only
by the employment of extreme leverage, hubris, and over reliance
on arcane calculations -- Astrology for Orange County and the
BMS/VAR algorithms for LTCM]].

Financial catastrophe was [apparently] avoided only because
Greenspan stepped in to coordinate the orderly
unwinding/liquidation of LTCM. This was not a coup on the part
of Greenspan, as he had largely created this financial H bomb by
failing to take action when it was possible to do with minimal
cost/disruption.

[I observe here that the "free market" is *NOT* a suicide pact.
From the Orange County results, it appears that Astrology is not
the best basis for making financial/monitary/investment
decisions...]

for some background click on
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=259854
http://www.ultirisk.com/en/DFA.asp
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery...9854& mirid=1
http://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Mone.../dp/0471498114
snip
"Long Term Credit Management's demise is one of a number of
recent high profile collapses involving the world's derivatives
markets. Other recent ones include those of Sumitomo's chief
copper trader, Yasuo Hamanaka, who lost $1.8 billion during a
decade of unauthorized dealing and price manipulation in the
copper market; Orange County's $1.7 billion loss on risky, highly
leveraged investments on the direction of interest rates;
Metallgesellschaft's $900 million loss on crude oil hedges; and,
of course the activities of Nicholas Leeson, Baring's infamous
Rogue Trader."
snip
http://www.sec.gov/news/testimony/te...8/tsty1598.htm
http://www.hennesseegroup.com/releases/pitfalls.html


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
Metal content? Priced steel, aluminum or copper lately?

On Sat, 24 May 2008 08:37:02 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Its always dangerous to extrapolate from a single data point, but
this could be the first drops of water seeping through the cracks
as the dam bursts, although Vallejo is not a major municipality.

Like Orange was?
==========
Interesting that you remember Orange County.

I'm funny that way. LOL
I remembered Coughlin as well.
It comes from a life time of making mistakes and trying to learn from them
in an effort to avoid repetition.
There really isn't anything new under the sun.

It appears that the
Orange County Debacle and the LTCM disaster were linked [if only
by the employment of extreme leverage, hubris, and over reliance
on arcane calculations -- Astrology for Orange County and the
BMS/VAR algorithms for LTCM]].

Financial catastrophe was [apparently] avoided only because
Greenspan stepped in to coordinate the orderly
unwinding/liquidation of LTCM.

Financial catstrophy wasn't avoided at all. Orange County was wiped out.
The truth of the matter was that they had to rebuild on a sound foundation
and after digging through the ash to collect up the bits and pieces that
remained, they did and have.
They now wish they had purged their entire system like one of those colon
cures. It would have hurt but they would have greater confidence in their
law enforcement at the County level. That ain't workin' out nearly as well.

The principal beneficiaries of the Feds activities were LTCM principals.

It is also worth noting, in fact it's critical, that unlike his successor,
Ben Bernanke, Greenspan didn't put Federal money into a private institution
to accomplish his goal. He bent the arm of the financial services industry
and made them clean up their own mess. That's a HUGE distinction.

Bernanke has broken with a policy that has been in place as long as the
Fed - about 70 years.
I'd be willing to bet yo my last dollar that it won't be another seventy
before PE is back at the well, hat in hand.
In fact, it might be that another such bail out will actually be expected
and built in to current and future decision making.

Ben Bernanke has converted the Federal Reserve into the "**** boy" of
private equity. Mark my words.

This was not a coup on the part
of Greenspan, as he had largely created this financial H bomb by
failing to take action when it was possible to do with minimal
cost/disruption.

I think he thought he had set the proper example. He hadn't, however,
anticipated the likes of Bernanke, Paulsen or BushCo.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

cavelamb himself wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:


John, I can truly say this is like finding out that when you come
home at night your house looks normal and everyone sits down to
dinner to talk about their day, but that one day you come home at
1:00 PM and find that it's really a crack house and gambling den
that you live in, with fold-down gaming tables and so on, that
are all neatly rolled up and put away before you regularly get
home.

That's a shame Ed.
I believe you do find all of this distressing.


The scale of it makes me angry. The feeble reaction of the Fed,
Treasury, and Congress annoys me. But it's not something I sit here
and worry about. I'm more worried that nothing will change in
November.

--
Ed Huntress




You are not alone in THAT particular fear, Ed.

I think the anger comes about from a feeling of helplessness -
no idea how to correct the situation.

If John and George are right, we are still in the foreplay stage.

Scary...



Richard,
This "conversation" is one that the three of us have been having for
years and it's all been public.
At least my partipation has been, and pretty much of the cuff.
Ed's view is heavily influenced by his career in journalism and his
concomitant ability to ferret out numbers and infer fact.IOW, Econ.

George is an educator, regardless his career, it's what he likes and
is good at. He's a gatherer.

You can't figure all of this out rationally.
I've made the point more than once that this entire situation only
computes as cultural anthropology.

The "foreplay stage" began in 1974 as ERISA.
That statement assumes that you want a start date certain as a
reference.

We have reached the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the
end, of foreplay phase.
It's an important distinction.



Copy that.
After all, foreplay is fun!

Then comes penetration and a whole lot of moaning and thrashing
around.


Ah well, remember when we all laughed about "getting the government we
deserved"?

I didn't laugh Richard.
I've been sitting around wondering why there aren't somewhere between ten
and thirty Hatch Act violation cases underway right now.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sat, 24 May 2008 10:47:02 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
You speak of these "Pols" as if they are an alien race that inhabits or
infests government.
I've never understood term limits and chalk them up to the same lazy
thinking that blames the "Pols" for everything.
You are an educator and ought to recognize an apt but lazy pupil when you
see one.
snip
========
My bad...

I should have made it plain that you do not have to be elected
when I use the word "pol."

In too many cases the "pols" indeed become an alien species by
isolation from mainstream society in exactly the same way that
any isolated group does, from the incarcerated to the academic.

To a considerable degree, "term limits" helped by forcing some
circulation in the legislature, and new governors' generally make
new appointments. The major problem now appears to be the
"webes" as in "we be here before you here, and we be here after
you gone," in the bureaucracy. Indeed in many cases senior
individuals in the civil service are more influential than many
individual elected officials, or even considerable blocs of
elected individuals.

This is not to say the "webes" are "evil" or "corrupt"
individuals, although there are a few cases such as Randy "Duke"
Cunningham, that are examples of Lord Acton's observation "power
corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely," after the
corrupting and debasing influences in the "halls of power" have
done their work. However, in the majority of cases, the "webes"
are responding rationally and reasonably to the demands,
expectations, and requirements of *THEIR* environments, which
most unfortunately have significantly diverged over time from the
demands, expectations, and requirements of the "mainstream," i.e.
the people.

I try to never complain or criticize without making at least a
plausible suggestion for improvement or correction. The
complexity of many of the "webe" functions (and simple equity)
indicates that while term limits are not practicable, mandatory
interdepartmental transfer, based on either time or promotion, as
is done in the military (albeit within the same functional areas)
seems to be highly necessary. This is particularly true in the
legislative support staff. Because of existing term limits,
staff for individual legislators is not the problem, but rather
the legislative organizational "infrastructure."

Such transfers are common, even policy, in the private sector for
employees in procrument/financial areas, and almost all of
government involves these areas.
-------------------
Several people have emailed me with observations about the
suggested "Super Prop 13" requirements. One that I should have
thought of is to mandate ratios of police, fire, emts, etc. to
the population of counties, municipalities, etc. to prevent short
changing citizen services, possibly by class of city, i.e. a
requirement that a city of the first class shall employ at least
2.5 but not more than 3.5 full-time law enforcement officers
[working at least 1800 but not more than 2100 hours per year] per
1,000 population. A city of the second class ...

For some national numbers see
http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/spreadsheet/1002383
FWIW SF has 3.1 police per 1k population although annual hrs
worked is unk.

REMEMBER -- WHEN WE DON'T GET WHAT WE WANT -- WE GET WHAT WE
DESERVE…


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Ah well, remember when we all laughed about "getting the government we
deserved"?


I didn't laugh Richard.
I've been sitting around wondering why there aren't somewhere between ten
and thirty Hatch Act violation cases underway right now.



I had to go look that one up.

The Hatch act precluded federal employees from membership in "any
political organization which advocates the overthrow of our
constitutional form of government."


I'm not sure where you are going with it though.

Richard

On Sat, 24 May 2008 21:24:01 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:



Ah well, remember when we all laughed about "getting the government we
deserved"?


I didn't laugh Richard.
I've been sitting around wondering why there aren't somewhere between ten
and thirty Hatch Act violation cases underway right now.



I had to go look that one up.

The Hatch act precluded federal employees from membership in "any
political organization which advocates the overthrow of our
constitutional form of government."


I'm not sure where you are going with it though.

Richard
========
Perhaps you stopped reading too soon.

Remember that when the Hatch Act was passed in 1939, many people
saw the Democratic Party as communist, and in the process of
subverting the republic by buying votes with the employment
programs such as the WPA, PWA, CCC, etc., and other socialist
measures such as social security.

The Hatch act was enacted in 1939 to both prevent the civil
service from engaging in political activity, and to prevent the
politicians from requiring "voluntary" political activity and
contributions from the civil service employees for employment
retention/advancement.

see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Act_of_1939
http://www.osc.gov/hatchact.htm


The Hatch prohibited *ALL* executive branch federal employees,
and individuals paid directly or indirectly through federal
programs, from engaging in partisan political activity,
especially on government time, using government facilities [i.e.
phones, computers, duplicating equipment, paper, franking, etc.].
This was one of the legitimate reasons the White House staff has
multiple email accounts. One with a .gov extension for
governmental business, one through the RNC for political
business, and possibly more. They also generally have 2 phone
lines, one for official business and one for politics, etc.

The Hatch Act was "reformed" in 1993 by the Republican Congress,
similar to the Glass-Steagall banking reform.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgov.../hatch_act.htm
snip
All civilian employees in the executive branch of the federal
government, except the President and the Vice President, are
covered by the provisions of the Hatch Act.

These employees may not:

* use official authority or influence to interfere with an
election
* solicit or discourage political activity of anyone with
business before their agency
* solicit or receive political contributions (may be done in
certain limited situations by federal labor or other employee
organizations)
* be candidates for public office in partisan elections
* engage in political activity while:
o on duty
o in a government office
o wearing an official uniform
o using a government vehicle
* wear partisan political buttons on duty

Additional Partisan Activity Prohibitions
Employees of the following agencies (or agency components), or in
the following categories, are subject to more extensive
restrictions on their political activities than employees in
other Departments and agencies:

* Administrative Law Judges (positions described at 5 U.S.C.
§ 5372)
* Central Imagery Office
* Central Intelligence Agency
* Contract Appeals Boards (positions described at 5 U.S.C. §
5372a)
* Criminal Division (Department of Justice)
* Defense Intelligence Agency
* Federal Bureau of Investigation
* Federal Elections Commission
* Merit Systems Protection Board
* National Security Agency
* National Security Council
* Office of Criminal Investigation (Internal Revenue Service)
* Office of Investigative Programs (Customs Service)
* Office of Law Enforcement (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms)
* Office of Special Counsel
* Secret Service
* Senior Executive Service (career positions described at 5
U.S.C. § 3132(a)(4))
snip
---------------

*IF* anyone in the US Attorneys offices, Justice Department, IRS,
FBI, NSA, INS, etc. etc. [all executive agencies] engaged in
overt or covert political activity, for example indicting
Democratic candidates just before the election, suborning
perjured testimony to overturn a close election, or leaking
damaging information to the media [Spitzer?], this is a blatant
violation of the 1939 Hatch Act as amended. This can be either
the actual performance [or omission, for example disclosing
exculpatory evidence to the defense in a criminal trial] or the
*CAUSING* of such commission or omission, and if more than a
single person is involved, the "conspiracy statues," and their
penalties kick in, and if a continuing pattern of behavior can be
shown [generally 3 related felonies showing an on-going
conspiracy or criminal enterprise] the RICO [Racketeering
Influenced and Corrupt Organizations] statute may "kick in."

for some "leads" see
http://www.crosstabs.org/stories/the...rat_ indicted
http://misterturnbow.blogspot.com/20...-democrat.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/21/183833/39
http://www.truthout.org/article/rove...re-us-attorney
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0704/S00350.htm
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/02/hbc-90002293

google on democrat indictment election US-attorney for 269k
hits if you are interested.

Clinton was attempting to do the same thing in the spirit of
down-home Arkansas politics, but the Republican Congress had
enough votes to impeach (but not convict), thus were able to put
a thumb in that particular eye.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

cavelamb himself wrote:
Ah well, remember when we all laughed about "getting the government
we deserved"?


I didn't laugh Richard.
I've been sitting around wondering why there aren't somewhere
between ten and thirty Hatch Act violation cases underway right now.



I had to go look that one up.

The Hatch act precluded federal employees from membership in "any
political organization which advocates the overthrow of our
constitutional form of government."


I'm not sure where you are going with it though.



There are over thirty instances of this sort of testimony before the
Congress.


Alphonso Jackson
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=4370840

Philadephia, the city's housing director Carl Greene, says Jackson
threatened his agency's funding after he refused to hand over city property
worth two million dollars to one of Jackson's friends.
Philadelphia's lawsuit against HUD uncovered this incriminating exchange of
email between Jackson's top assistants.
"Would you like me to make his life less happy? If so, how?"
"Take away all of his federal dollars?"
"Let me look into that possibility."

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA): When you have this exchange of email about making
his life unhappy and taking away the funding, and "I'll look into that" and
then the same day they take action to withhold what is now amounting to 50
million dollars that's just too much of a coincidence.

ALPHONSO JACKSON: As I stated in a memorandum to you. I saw this for the
first time on Tuesday. And I am making every effort to get to the bottom of
it.



Lurita Doan
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=3268651


REP. BRUCE BRALEY (D-IA): The Committee has been informed by multiple
sources that after Mr. Jennings finished his presentation, you stated, "How
can we use GSA to help our candidates in the next election?" Now, reminding
you that you are under oath, can you tell the committee whether in fact you
did make that statement?

LURITA DOAN: I do know that I am under oath, and I will tell you that
honestly and absolutely I do not have a recollection of actually saying
that.

REP. HENRY WAXMAN (D-CA): It's unusual for me to ever call for the
resignation of a federal official. But in your case, I don't see any other
course of action. I would urge you to resign.


I think you can watch this broadcast online. Do so if you have a minute.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05232008/watch.html

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

new thread started -- was Obamas plans for the US

On Sat, 24 May 2008 11:23:03 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

F. George McDuffee wrote:
Metal content? Priced steel, aluminum or copper lately?

On Sat, 24 May 2008 08:37:02 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Its always dangerous to extrapolate from a single data point, but
this could be the first drops of water seeping through the cracks
as the dam bursts, although Vallejo is not a major municipality.

Like Orange was?
==========
Interesting that you remember Orange County.

I'm funny that way. LOL
I remembered Coughlin as well.
It comes from a life time of making mistakes and trying to learn from them
in an effort to avoid repetition.
There really isn't anything new under the sun.

snip some good comments
====================
Warren Buffet, one of the few remaining honest people in finance
has this to say:
-------------
Buffett blames banks for credit crisis
Sun May 25, 6:21 AM ET

MADRID (Reuters) - Blame for the sub-prime crisis lies at the
feet of banks who took too many risks in mortgage lending, U.S.
billionaire investor Warren Buffett told newspaper El Pais in an
interview published on Sunday.
"The banks exposed themselves too much, they took on too much
risk .... It's their fault. There's no need to blame anyone
else," he said.
snip
for complete interview click on
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080525/..._EJosx6mlv24cA
------------

I will observe that this does not necessarily imply any sort of
cabal or conspiracy, but rather an excessive division of labor,
and top management that demanded "results," and were not
concerned how these were obtained, as long as jail time and
"disgorgement" were not a significant possibility (e.g. money
laundering, fronting drug deals, etc.).

In retrospect, it now appears there were three groups involved in
every bank.

Group one consisted of very bright, hard working and dedicated
individuals who were tasked with developing and implementing
processes/procedures to keep liabilities on the bank's books as
low a possible, while retaining potential income, such as SPE
[special purpose entities], SIVs [Special Investment Vehicles].
Conduits, and a series of novel financial instruments such as
synthetic structured RMBCDOs [residential mortgage backed
collateralized debt obligations]. In this they were
extraordinarily successful.

Group two consisted of very bright, hard working and dedicated
individuals who were tasked with maximizing both the utilization
of and rate of return on the bank's capital/equity, defined as
assets less liability (which group one was tasked with
minimizing). In this they too were extraordinarily successful.

Both groups were "enabled, aided and abetted" by financial rating
companies, who apparently were under the impression that an
intern with a "AAA" stamp, and a computer generated VAR [value at
risk] analysis, constituted "due diligence." In any event, the
rating companies and outside auditors could not understand the
risks involved in these novel financial instruments and
structures, because no one did, not even the people that created
them.

This segues into the story about the little boy that thought he
had discovered a money farm. He was working in the garden, and
found a nickel in the dirt, he put it in his pocket, worked a
little more and then found a dime and he put that in his pocket.
This continued all day, and the little boy was getting rich.
When he went in the house that night, he rushed upstairs to count
his money, and discovered in his pocket, one nickel, one dime and
a hole.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
new thread started -- was Obamas plans for the US

On Sat, 24 May 2008 11:23:03 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

F. George McDuffee wrote:
Metal content? Priced steel, aluminum or copper lately?

On Sat, 24 May 2008 08:37:02 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Its always dangerous to extrapolate from a single data point, but
this could be the first drops of water seeping through the cracks
as the dam bursts, although Vallejo is not a major municipality.

Like Orange was?
==========
Interesting that you remember Orange County.

I'm funny that way. LOL
I remembered Coughlin as well.
It comes from a life time of making mistakes and trying to learn
from them in an effort to avoid repetition.
There really isn't anything new under the sun.

snip some good comments
====================
Warren Buffet, one of the few remaining honest people in finance
has this to say:
-------------
Buffett blames banks for credit crisis
Sun May 25, 6:21 AM ET

MADRID (Reuters) - Blame for the sub-prime crisis lies at the
feet of banks who took too many risks in mortgage lending, U.S.
billionaire investor Warren Buffett told newspaper El Pais in an
interview published on Sunday.
"The banks exposed themselves too much, they took on too much
risk .... It's their fault. There's no need to blame anyone
else," he said.
snip
for complete interview click on

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080525/..._EJosx6mlv24cA
------------

I will observe that this does not necessarily imply any sort of
cabal or conspiracy, but rather an excessive division of labor,
and top management that demanded "results," and were not
concerned how these were obtained, as long as jail time and
"disgorgement" were not a significant possibility (e.g. money
laundering, fronting drug deals, etc.).

In retrospect, it now appears there were three groups involved in
every bank.

Group one consisted of very bright, hard working and dedicated
individuals who were tasked with developing and implementing
processes/procedures to keep liabilities on the bank's books as
low a possible, while retaining potential income, such as SPE
[special purpose entities], SIVs [Special Investment Vehicles].
Conduits, and a series of novel financial instruments such as
synthetic structured RMBCDOs [residential mortgage backed
collateralized debt obligations]. In this they were
extraordinarily successful.

Group two consisted of very bright, hard working and dedicated
individuals who were tasked with maximizing both the utilization
of and rate of return on the bank's capital/equity, defined as
assets less liability (which group one was tasked with
minimizing). In this they too were extraordinarily successful.

Both groups were "enabled, aided and abetted" by financial rating
companies, who apparently were under the impression that an
intern with a "AAA" stamp, and a computer generated VAR [value at
risk] analysis, constituted "due diligence." In any event, the
rating companies and outside auditors could not understand the
risks involved in these novel financial instruments and
structures, because no one did, not even the people that created
them.


Warren Buffet isn't in finance George.
He, and BH, are investors/managers.
Anyone in the metalworking industry can tell you what it feels like to watch
a company, or group of companies, evolve once they join the Berkshire
Hathaway stable.
It ain't pretty.

He'd also like to prevent the spectacle of 35 year old middle managers
hanging from the worlds lamp posts.
That is admirable but beyond it's his ability.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sun, 25 May 2008 10:15:05 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
He'd also like to prevent the spectacle of 35 year old middle managers
hanging from the worlds lamp posts.
That is admirable but beyond it's his ability.
snip
===========
2 good points.

I would too, as the "mob" never seems to get the "right" people
(ones that caused the problems), or when to quit.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).