OT - but some metal content
 

First of all I live in Thailand where the source of wine making
equipment is strictly limited. To date I have been "crushing" grapes
by hand, stomping, and rubbing through a plastic basket (similar to a
milk crate) and to be frank it is a lot of work and I would like to
build a crusher, possibly a crusher/destemer.

Does anyone have plans, a photograph, or any other data about the
internal parts, or any other information, regarding crushers and how
they are function?

I presently envision two geared rollers with adjustable spacing but
what material for the rollers? Stainless? Black iron? Can they be
smooth or do they need serration? What about the destemer portion?

I have a background in engineering and metal fabrication so the actual
building will not be a problem, it is in the details where the devils
lurk.

I've also posted to the wine makers but thought (hoped) that someone
on this group might have built a crusher. After all, there is no
reason a machinist cannot drink wine.

Any assistance, no matter how rudimentary, will be very greatly
appreciated.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

OT - but some metal content
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:


I presently envision two geared rollers with adjustable spacing but
what material for the rollers? Stainless? Black iron? Can they be
smooth or do they need serration? What about the destemer portion?


Most of the newer small units are currently using rubber crusher
rollers, similar to a wringer for a washing machine except mounted so
the fruit drops through. As for the destemer, a picture would explain
better:

http://www.euromachinesusa.com/pdf/r...0_brochure.pdf
rauch_A8_A12_A20_brochure.pdf

This example is a little greater capacity than you probably need.

Russ

OT - but some metal content
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
Does anyone have plans, a photograph, or any other data about the
internal parts, or any other information, regarding crushers and how
they are function?


From the same supplier, I previously linked to, here is the parts sheet
for those units:
http://www.euromachinesusa.com/pdf/R...pare_parts.pdf
Rauch_A12_A20_spare_parts.pdf



Russ

OT - but some metal content
 

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:41:16 GMT, Russ wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
Does anyone have plans, a photograph, or any other data about the
internal parts, or any other information, regarding crushers and how
they are function?


From the same supplier, I previously linked to, here is the parts sheet
for those units:
http://www.euromachinesusa.com/pdf/R...pare_parts.pdf
Rauch_A12_A20_spare_parts.pdf



Russ

I thank you sir. It is a little more commercial then I need but it
does give me an idea of how one works.

Again, thank you.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Stemmer-Crusher
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

It is a little more commercial then I need but it
does give me an idea of how one works.

I suspected as much.
I thought that the pictures would give you the general idea. I had the
links close at hand without looking for them.
I repair, similar, and larger, stemmer-crushers and fabricate other
vineyard equipment.
For my personal use, I usually use a small antique crusher unit that
only has capacity of a few hundred pounds an hour and cam type rollers
of a cast aluminum. It will fit over a half barrel or plastic tub, I
usually do the destemming by hand. I have the luxury of using one of
the neighbors larger units, if, I need to do more.
For some winemaking styles, the winemakers are opening the rollers up
just wide enough to lightly squeeze a berry and removing the destemmer
allowing the stems to go through the rollers with only a very light
crush to the combined must of stems and berries.

Russ

Stemmer-Crusher
 

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:34:11 GMT, Russ wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

It is a little more commercial then I need but it
does give me an idea of how one works.

I suspected as much.
I thought that the pictures would give you the general idea. I had the
links close at hand without looking for them.
I repair, similar, and larger, stemmer-crushers and fabricate other
vineyard equipment.
For my personal use, I usually use a small antique crusher unit that
only has capacity of a few hundred pounds an hour and cam type rollers
of a cast aluminum. It will fit over a half barrel or plastic tub, I
usually do the destemming by hand. I have the luxury of using one of
the neighbors larger units, if, I need to do more.
For some winemaking styles, the winemakers are opening the rollers up
just wide enough to lightly squeeze a berry and removing the destemmer
allowing the stems to go through the rollers with only a very light
crush to the combined must of stems and berries.

Russ

That sounds more like what I would want. I usually crush around 150
Lbs. at a time (which is a lot by hand) and wanted something to sit on
a barrel and pour the grapes in and crank the handle. I'll even be
glad to pick the stems off by hand.

What I am thinking about is some sort of two roller device, perhaps
with the rolls geared to rotate together that will essentially just
break the berry. I believe that I will need some form of serration,
grooves, or whatever, to keep the grapes from just sitting on top of
the smooth rollers.

One Idea is to modify an existing set of rolls, actually used for
softening dried squid. The have brass rolls about 1-1/2 inch in
diameter, about 8 - 10 inches long, with quite deep serration but the
separation between the rollers is adjustable and I am considering
modifying one of these by adding a hopper to direct the grapes into
the rollers and a mount to hold the thing on the side of a barrel.

I could willing buy a crusher but the shipping from even Australia is
shocking. Apparently most companies use DHL and DHL is a door to door
service and by the time they pay your customs and get a fee for that
along with all their other charges the shipping often equals or costs
more then the purchase cost.

But thank you for the information as it gives me some more ideas.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

OT - but some metal content
 

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:09:40 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

First of all I live in Thailand where the source of wine making
equipment is strictly limited. To date I have been "crushing" grapes
by hand, stomping, and rubbing through a plastic basket (similar to a
milk crate) and to be frank it is a lot of work and I would like to
build a crusher, possibly a crusher/destemer.

Does anyone have plans, a photograph, or any other data about the
internal parts, or any other information, regarding crushers and how
they are function?
snip

Take a look at this Google patent search:

http://www.google.com/patents?q=wine...tents&n um=20

A few highlights that may be of interest:

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=581994

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=120400

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=88329

I'm sure you should be able to get some ideas from this. I'm
way out of my area of knowledge, other than finding ideas :)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

OT - but some metal content
 

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:42:56 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:09:40 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

First of all I live in Thailand where the source of wine making
equipment is strictly limited. To date I have been "crushing" grapes
by hand, stomping, and rubbing through a plastic basket (similar to a
milk crate) and to be frank it is a lot of work and I would like to
build a crusher, possibly a crusher/destemer.

Does anyone have plans, a photograph, or any other data about the
internal parts, or any other information, regarding crushers and how
they are function?
snip

Take a look at this Google patent search:

http://www.google.com/patents?q=wine...tents&n um=20

A few highlights that may be of interest:

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=581994

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=120400

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=88329

I'm sure you should be able to get some ideas from this. I'm
way out of my area of knowledge, other than finding ideas :)


Thanks for pointers. You must be much craftier then me as I wasn't
able to locate anything more then a thumbnail of the outside of one.

Thanks much.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

OT - but some metal content
 

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:38:21 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:


Finding a basket would be the problem. In Bangkok you have to go to
the Sunday Market to find a real hand made rattan or bamboo basket any
more. and, they charge "handy craft" prices for them.

But your idea sounds good. I've got the air compressor, I can get
patched truck inner tubes for nearly give away prices and all I need
is the container.

Thanks

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


Consider using the drum from a washing machine? Pretty sturdy, got
lots of nifty holes in the right places and can be welded.

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

Stemmer-Crusher
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

One Idea is to modify an existing set of rolls, actually used for
softening dried squid. The have brass rolls about 1-1/2 inch in
diameter, about 8 - 10 inches long, with quite deep serration but the
separation between the rollers is adjustable and I am considering
modifying one of these by adding a hopper to direct the grapes into
the rollers and a mount to hold the thing on the side of a barrel.


That sounds like a very good starting point.
Brass is used in a lot of pumps used by small wineries and home
winemakers. The large production operations sometimes try to reduce
their exposure to it, because traces of copper can inhibit the
fermentation. Copper's activity as a fungicide is the reason to try and
reduce exposure to the metal when trying to ferment. However, brass and
bronze have been used for a long time in the wine and juice industries.
You would not be adding copper if there is no wear or contact
between the rollers or other metal parts.
The serrations are almost a necessity to keep the berries feeding
through the rollers consistently, otherwise, you will have to apply
pressure on the fruit to keep it feeding between the rollers on
occasions. It is real common for the screw augers feeding the large
crushers, to bridge, when too much unstemmed fruit enters the hopper.
No matter what the size of the unit, it works best if you can feed it
progressively and control the amount of fruit going through the rollers.
The hopper of my antique crusher was made from hardwood. A lot of the
hoppers on crusher frames sold to home winemakers and used on some
crushers throughout the industry are fabricated from mild steel and
coated with a food grade paint.


What are you using for a press? Are you pressing straight off the
crusher? Or, are you fermenting on the skins and then pressing?

Russ

OT - but some metal content
 

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 02:29:56 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:38:21 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:


Finding a basket would be the problem. In Bangkok you have to go to
the Sunday Market to find a real hand made rattan or bamboo basket any
more. and, they charge "handy craft" prices for them.

But your idea sounds good. I've got the air compressor, I can get
patched truck inner tubes for nearly give away prices and all I need
is the container.

Thanks

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


Consider using the drum from a washing machine? Pretty sturdy, got
lots of nifty holes in the right places and can be welded.

Gunner

Not a bad idea although in this 3rd world country they don;t throw
washing machines away - they fix 'em. But I will look around and see
what's available.

Thanks for idea, in any event.
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Stemmer-Crusher
 

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:06:48 GMT, Russ wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

One Idea is to modify an existing set of rolls, actually used for
softening dried squid. The have brass rolls about 1-1/2 inch in
diameter, about 8 - 10 inches long, with quite deep serration but the
separation between the rollers is adjustable and I am considering
modifying one of these by adding a hopper to direct the grapes into
the rollers and a mount to hold the thing on the side of a barrel.


That sounds like a very good starting point.
Brass is used in a lot of pumps used by small wineries and home
winemakers. The large production operations sometimes try to reduce
their exposure to it, because traces of copper can inhibit the
fermentation. Copper's activity as a fungicide is the reason to try and
reduce exposure to the metal when trying to ferment. However, brass and
bronze have been used for a long time in the wine and juice industries.
You would not be adding copper if there is no wear or contact
between the rollers or other metal parts.
The serrations are almost a necessity to keep the berries feeding
through the rollers consistently, otherwise, you will have to apply
pressure on the fruit to keep it feeding between the rollers on
occasions. It is real common for the screw augers feeding the large
crushers, to bridge, when too much unstemmed fruit enters the hopper.
No matter what the size of the unit, it works best if you can feed it
progressively and control the amount of fruit going through the rollers.
The hopper of my antique crusher was made from hardwood. A lot of the
hoppers on crusher frames sold to home winemakers and used on some
crushers throughout the industry are fabricated from mild steel and
coated with a food grade paint.


What are you using for a press? Are you pressing straight off the
crusher? Or, are you fermenting on the skins and then pressing?

Russ


To date I have been fermenting on the skins and pressing when the
really active fermentation is done, pretty much when the cap drops.

I built a press from a locally made press designed to squeeze coconut
meat to make "coconut milk" used in Thai cooking. It originally had an
aluminum sleeve with a mild steel pressure plate screw jack operated.
I rebuilt it to have a stainless sleeve and pressure plate. It isn't
really high capacity but I can get pretty much dry must in two
presses.

As far as the crusher goes I have about decided on adapting the squid
crusher. It has a cast iron frame, designed to bolt down on a table
but can just as well mount vertically on a plank to be held to a
barrel. The rollers are adjustable through a range wider then a grape
is in diameter and are brass. I don't believe that during a crushing
session enough copper would leech out to be significant. I can have a
sheet metal shop fabricate a hopper that fits the rollers and frame of
the squid crusher and it should work.

I can live with hand desteming and it doesn't I have wasted 20 dollars
or so.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

OT - but some metal content
 

snip

Not a bad idea although in this 3rd world country they don;t throw
washing machines away - they fix 'em. But I will look around and see
what's available.

Thanks for idea, in any event.
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

the specific prototype that made me suggest the air approach was at a winery
I visited - the barrel was made of redwood with about 1/8 inch between
lats - being in Thailand you could of course use teak, but that's
expensive - anything strong with a few holes will work.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

OT - but some metal content
 

William Noble wrote:

the specific prototype that made me suggest the air approach was at a winery
I visited - the barrel was made of redwood with about 1/8 inch between
lats - being in Thailand you could of course use teak, but that's
expensive - anything strong with a few holes will work.

The device you are referring to is a press. The original poster already
has a very nice press, he fabricated.
He is working on fabricating a device needed to open the berries prior
to pressing them, often, referred to as the crusher. Sometimes the
device is also used to remove the stems before crushing the berries,
upon which the device then becomes a Stemmer-crusher. If the berries
are not crushed prior to pressing many will remain intact and not
release the juice. Also, to more readily release the color and
additional flavors that the skins retain, the berries must be opened and
the fermentation at least partially finished with the skins, before
pressing to remove the pulp and skins.

Russ

Please,
Drink more Wine.

Stemmer-Crusher
 

Can you really get wine grapes in Bangkok? What kind? Where do they come
from?

Andrew


"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:06:48 GMT, Russ wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

One Idea is to modify an existing set of rolls, actually used for
softening dried squid. The have brass rolls about 1-1/2 inch in
diameter, about 8 - 10 inches long, with quite deep serration but the
separation between the rollers is adjustable and I am considering
modifying one of these by adding a hopper to direct the grapes into
the rollers and a mount to hold the thing on the side of a barrel.


That sounds like a very good starting point.
Brass is used in a lot of pumps used by small wineries and home
winemakers. The large production operations sometimes try to reduce
their exposure to it, because traces of copper can inhibit the
fermentation. Copper's activity as a fungicide is the reason to try and
reduce exposure to the metal when trying to ferment. However, brass and
bronze have been used for a long time in the wine and juice industries.
You would not be adding copper if there is no wear or contact
between the rollers or other metal parts.
The serrations are almost a necessity to keep the berries feeding
through the rollers consistently, otherwise, you will have to apply
pressure on the fruit to keep it feeding between the rollers on
occasions. It is real common for the screw augers feeding the large
crushers, to bridge, when too much unstemmed fruit enters the hopper.
No matter what the size of the unit, it works best if you can feed it
progressively and control the amount of fruit going through the rollers.
The hopper of my antique crusher was made from hardwood. A lot of the
hoppers on crusher frames sold to home winemakers and used on some
crushers throughout the industry are fabricated from mild steel and
coated with a food grade paint.


What are you using for a press? Are you pressing straight off the
crusher? Or, are you fermenting on the skins and then pressing?

Russ


To date I have been fermenting on the skins and pressing when the
really active fermentation is done, pretty much when the cap drops.

I built a press from a locally made press designed to squeeze coconut
meat to make "coconut milk" used in Thai cooking. It originally had an
aluminum sleeve with a mild steel pressure plate screw jack operated.
I rebuilt it to have a stainless sleeve and pressure plate. It isn't
really high capacity but I can get pretty much dry must in two
presses.

As far as the crusher goes I have about decided on adapting the squid
crusher. It has a cast iron frame, designed to bolt down on a table
but can just as well mount vertically on a plank to be held to a
barrel. The rollers are adjustable through a range wider then a grape
is in diameter and are brass. I don't believe that during a crushing
session enough copper would leech out to be significant. I can have a
sheet metal shop fabricate a hopper that fits the rollers and frame of
the squid crusher and it should work.

I can live with hand desteming and it doesn't I have wasted 20 dollars
or so.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Stemmer-Crusher
 

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:11:43 -0700, "Andrew Werby"
wrote:

Can you really get wine grapes in Bangkok? What kind? Where do they come
from?

Andrew

There are a number of vineyards in Thailand, mainly on the Khorat
Plateau or in the mountains around Chang Mai, in the north. One of the
Chang Mai vineyard's vines were imported from France and their wine is
expensive (very over priced by my standards).

Getting wine grapes is difficult as most vineyards make their own
wine and are reluctant to sell grapes.

I have a D-in-Law who runs a business in one of the resort areas in
the Khorat area and knows one of the vineyard managers so I can get
small lots of merlot grapes that way.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)