Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such a
knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout the
fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I remember
correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil, liquefied lard,
charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary

Ivan Vegvary wrote:


If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?


I own a diesel F-250 and wouldn't dare do that. I previously, years
ago, owned a Mercedes 300-D and the manual actually stated that - during
cold weather - (I think it was so qualified) one could mix UP TO 30%
gasoline with the diesel fuel. I suspect this was to help prevent the
diesel fuel from congealing.

I have heard stories, unverified, that a diesel will "run away" on
gasoline and over rev the engine, possibly disassembling itself,
internally if not externally. A diesel operates at much higher
pressures than a gasoline engine. The gasoline is far more explosive
than diesel fuel. The diesel uses no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Instead it uses pressure to explode the fuel.

A web search of diesel engine might give much more detail and better
advice. I'm also sure others will explain this much better. Just DON'T
TRY IT, unless you can afford to replace the engine! :-)

"SteveB" wrote in message
...



Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:58:53 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:

Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such a
knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout the
fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I remember
correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil, liquefied lard,
charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary

Gasoline has an abysnal Cetane rating. It lights too easy, and would
do severe damage to the engine, particularly timed for diesel fuel.
Also not enough lubricity for the pump in most cases.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:31:16 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:


"SteveB" wrote in message
...



Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary

A lot of the older International bulldozers were started as gasoline
engines and switched over to diesel once they warmed up, right down to
the spark plugs.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On 2008-04-12, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

"SteveB" wrote in message
...



Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

Gas does not have the lubricating qualities of diesel, and can ruin
injectors and pumps that are not designed to handle it.

There are multifuel engines, such as what are installed on some
military trucks, made by Continental, that would run on just about
anything -- but you need to do some mechanic work to switch over. It
is not as simple as pouring a new tank of whatever is your latest
greasy find.

i


I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary

If you need the long answer, it's prolly a waste of time...
Anyway, gasoline will ignite from the compression temp on injection
and burn WAAAY to fast-almost detonate, and so can do severe damage to
the structure of the engine's components. It will do little useful
work. If you dispenced with the diesel injection pump and naturally
aspirated the engine with a carburator, the gas would preignite too
early in the compression stroke and you would never get it started.
Might break the starter or a piston or two trying.You could reduce the
compression ratio to accomodate gas, but then you might as well just
use a gas engine. Trying to convert a diesel to run on gas is an
absurd notion.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:31:16 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:


"SteveB" wrote in message
...



Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary

Gerald Miller wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:31:16 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:


"SteveB" wrote in message
...

Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary


A lot of the older International bulldozers were started as gasoline
engines and switched over to diesel once they warmed up, right down to
the spark plugs.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Were you aware that when running on gasoline mode the compression was lowered
by opening a valve that gave access to the spark plug in an additional combustion
chamber?

Tom

Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such a
knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout the
fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I remember
correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil, liquefied lard,
charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary



Try it, you won't like it.
Gasoline in a modern high compression diesel engine will destroy it VERY
fast. A modern diesel will run on heating oil just fine as both are #2
fuel oil (get caught with heating oil in your tank and pay a BIG fine)
Vegetable oil works OK BUT it has to be heated to keep it flowing in
cold temperatures (Bio-Diesel is modified vegetable oil)


--
Steve W.

Ivan Vegvary wrote:
"SteveB" wrote in message
...


Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve


Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary


Gasoline will not burn very good in a diesel. I have had a number of
tractor engines that customers have put gasoline in the diesel tank by
mistake. With a small amount the engine will run with a lot of white
smoke and low power. With a lot of gas you can not get the engine to
keep running, just much white smoke. I've been told the octane rating of
gas keeps it from burning.

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:xHULj.28$vz2.3@trndny05...
Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such
a knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout
the fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I
remember correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil,
liquefied lard, charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary

Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If you
don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:U9VLj.47$DD2.38@trndny04...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...



Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary

Let me try a shorter one, because I'm sure you'll see the implications. The
cetane rating of gasoline is too low. It won't run well, if at all, in a
diesel engine. Contrary to some of the remarks here, it won't even ignite in
a diesel at low temperatures. That's what octane is all about: the function
of octane is to reduce the fuel's tendency to ignite from the heat of
pressurization. Diesel fuel has a very low octane rating. It ignites much
more easily from the heat of compression.

Also, as someone else pointed out, gasoline has no lubricating properties
and the higher mechanical stresses of a diesel require some lubrication from
the fuel to get those famous long cylinder lives.

Don't take it from me. Here's an engineer on the subject, and he really
seems to know what he's talking about:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/m...and_diesel.htm

--
Ed Huntress

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:xHULj.28$vz2.3@trndny05...
Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such
a
knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout
the
fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I
remember
correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil, liquefied
lard,
charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary



I drive an old Mercedes diesel and I understand that the car will run on
gasoline in a pinch but the performance really sucks. For instance if I was
almost out of diesel and had a 100 miles to get it, I could get a half a
tank of gas to get me to the place where I could buy diesel.

What I am wondering is if Automatic transmission fluid could be used to run
the engine. Also if it could, what would I have to do with the drained used
ATF to burn it. The transmission shop would probably be tickled pink to get
a buck a gallon for the drain oil.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:19:36 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:


If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?


I own a diesel F-250 and wouldn't dare do that. I previously, years
ago, owned a Mercedes 300-D and the manual actually stated that - during
cold weather - (I think it was so qualified) one could mix UP TO 30%
gasoline with the diesel fuel. I suspect this was to help prevent the
diesel fuel from congealing.

I have heard stories, unverified, that a diesel will "run away" on
gasoline and over rev the engine, possibly disassembling itself,
internally if not externally. A diesel operates at much higher
pressures than a gasoline engine. The gasoline is far more explosive
than diesel fuel. The diesel uses no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Instead it uses pressure to explode the fuel.

Take this for as much verification as you think it's worth...

On at least one occasion my dad came home from the fire station with a
story of a truck engine running away when the guys put gasoline in the
tank instead of diesel fuel.

I don't see why this should happen _in theory_ as a diesel is throttled
by controlling the amount of fuel injected, but I could certainly see it
happening in practice if the lower viscosity of gas let it flow at a too-
high volume.

IIRC one shuts down a runaway diesel by shutting off the air. There is
(was) supposed to be an emergency shut-off valve in the intake of every
diesel motor, but in a pinch one could use articles of clothing stuffed
into the intake.

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:00:02 +1200, Tom
wrote:

Gerald Miller wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:31:16 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:


"SteveB" wrote in message
...

Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary


A lot of the older International bulldozers were started as gasoline
engines and switched over to diesel once they warmed up, right down to
the spark plugs.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Were you aware that when running on gasoline mode the compression was lowered
by opening a valve that gave access to the spark plug in an additional combustion
chamber?

Tom
Never really got into the mechanics, but I do remember being told
something along that line. My duties at the time involved quality
control and on that particular job, going to the burger joint in the
middle of nowhere before it closed at 11PM, as well as carrying the
Coleman lantern around most of the night.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:57:54 -0700, JR North
wrote:

If you need the long answer, it's prolly a waste of time...
Anyway, gasoline will ignite from the compression temp on injection
and burn WAAAY to fast-almost detonate, and so can do severe damage to
the structure of the engine's components. It will do little useful
work. If you dispenced with the diesel injection pump and naturally
aspirated the engine with a carburator, the gas would preignite too
early in the compression stroke and you would never get it started.
Might break the starter or a piston or two trying.You could reduce the
compression ratio to accomodate gas, but then you might as well just
use a gas engine. Trying to convert a diesel to run on gas is an
absurd notion.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

And trying to run a gas engine on diesel can get very smoky, as the
electronics maintenance supervisor found out when he tanked up at the
wrong pump. Fortunately he only got about a 50/50 mix, so it would
run, and the car was due for replacement.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:19:36 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:


If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?


I own a diesel F-250 and wouldn't dare do that. I previously, years
ago, owned a Mercedes 300-D and the manual actually stated that - during
cold weather - (I think it was so qualified) one could mix UP TO 30%
gasoline with the diesel fuel. I suspect this was to help prevent the
diesel fuel from congealing.

I have heard stories, unverified, that a diesel will "run away" on
gasoline and over rev the engine, possibly disassembling itself,
internally if not externally. A diesel operates at much higher
pressures than a gasoline engine. The gasoline is far more explosive
than diesel fuel. The diesel uses no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Instead it uses pressure to explode the fuel.

Take this for as much verification as you think it's worth...

On at least one occasion my dad came home from the fire station with a
story of a truck engine running away when the guys put gasoline in the
tank instead of diesel fuel.

I don't see why this should happen _in theory_ as a diesel is throttled
by controlling the amount of fuel injected, but I could certainly see it
happening in practice if the lower viscosity of gas let it flow at a too-
high volume.

IIRC one shuts down a runaway diesel by shutting off the air. There is
(was) supposed to be an emergency shut-off valve in the intake of every
diesel motor, but in a pinch one could use articles of clothing stuffed
into the intake.

Something is funny here, Tim. I wonder if those guys told your dad what
actually happened?

The cetane rating of gasoline is so low that, if you can ignite it at all in
a diesel, the gasoline burns so slowly that the engine knocks like crazy,
and it's still burning past the end of the power stroke. Thus, the white
smoke that someone else mentioned. At low temperatures, a diesel fueled with
gasoline may not ignite at all.

At the risk of oversimplifying, octane and cetane have roughly opposite
burning characteristics. A high cetane rating (as in premium diesel)
indicates that the fuel ignites easily from the heat of compression and that
it burns quickly once ignited. In fact, the cetane rating is based on the
time it takes for fuel ignited at high temperature and compression to reach
a specified cylinder pressure.

An octane rating, which is very low in diesel and much higher in gasoline,
indicates the *resistance* of the fuel to burning under those same
conditions. Higher octane allows higher compression ratios without premature
ignition from the heat of compression. However, what octane rating really
measures, if I recall correctly, is the speed with which a flame progresses.
High octane, slow burning.

So they aren't exactly opposite characteristics, but they're pretty close.
FWIW, ethanol is even harder to ignite with compression than gasoline. But
ether, which has a cetane rating around 80 (compared to petroleum diesel's
rating of 40 to 55), ignites much easier than any of them, with either
compression or a spark.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2008-04-12, Gerald Miller wrote:
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:57:54 -0700, JR North
wrote:

If you need the long answer, it's prolly a waste of time...
Anyway, gasoline will ignite from the compression temp on injection
and burn WAAAY to fast-almost detonate, and so can do severe damage to
the structure of the engine's components. It will do little useful
work. If you dispenced with the diesel injection pump and naturally
aspirated the engine with a carburator, the gas would preignite too
early in the compression stroke and you would never get it started.
Might break the starter or a piston or two trying.You could reduce the
compression ratio to accomodate gas, but then you might as well just
use a gas engine. Trying to convert a diesel to run on gas is an
absurd notion.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

And trying to run a gas engine on diesel can get very smoky, as the
electronics maintenance supervisor found out when he tanked up at the
wrong pump. Fortunately he only got about a 50/50 mix, so it would
run, and the car was due for replacement.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

My FIL once ran a lawnmower on kerosene. True story. It ran when it
was still hot. But then it would not start. It required a big
disassembly afterwards to remove kerosene.

i

On 2008-04-12, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:19:36 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:


If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?


I own a diesel F-250 and wouldn't dare do that. I previously, years
ago, owned a Mercedes 300-D and the manual actually stated that - during
cold weather - (I think it was so qualified) one could mix UP TO 30%
gasoline with the diesel fuel. I suspect this was to help prevent the
diesel fuel from congealing.

I have heard stories, unverified, that a diesel will "run away" on
gasoline and over rev the engine, possibly disassembling itself,
internally if not externally. A diesel operates at much higher
pressures than a gasoline engine. The gasoline is far more explosive
than diesel fuel. The diesel uses no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Instead it uses pressure to explode the fuel.

Take this for as much verification as you think it's worth...

On at least one occasion my dad came home from the fire station with a
story of a truck engine running away when the guys put gasoline in the
tank instead of diesel fuel.

I don't see why this should happen _in theory_ as a diesel is throttled
by controlling the amount of fuel injected, but I could certainly see it
happening in practice if the lower viscosity of gas let it flow at a too-
high volume.

IIRC one shuts down a runaway diesel by shutting off the air. There is
(was) supposed to be an emergency shut-off valve in the intake of every
diesel motor, but in a pinch one could use articles of clothing stuffed
into the intake.


Not in all, just it screaming jimmys...

i

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study
the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary


What you are questioning involves two different petroleum distillate
products with entirely different properties. These properties are
differing densities, differing lower flammability levels, differing lower
explosive levels, different specific densities, and countless differences
in lubricating properties. The engines designed to burn these products
are designed metallurgically and mechanically to take advantage of the
properties of each fuel and to be able to handle their consumption through
a controlled explosion. While it is true that diesel engines can be
started with gasoline in some engines specifically designed to do so, the
extra design components are not present in the common engines of either
variety.

One engine uses simple compression pressure to ignite the fuel (diesel)
and an impulse spray (or two sprays in some newer models) at the precise
moment, while the other one utilizes a spark at a precise moment that is
calibrated by the timing gears and connector, be they a chain, or common
gears. The fuel delivery systems vary considerably, even in the gasoline
engines, with common aspiration by suction through a carburetor to
computer controlled fuel injection being the common types. Carburetors
may be either updraft or downdraft. And then, the fuel mixtures may be
given an additional boost in pressure by a turbocharger powered by exhaust
gases or a supercharger powered by a mechanical connector ultimately
ending up at the crankshaft but possibly running through intermittent
components. Superchargers are and were commonly used for diesel engines,
and fathered drag racing's development through the 4-71. 6-71, and the
grand daddy 8-71 superchargers of the early engines, commonly called
"blowers". They are still in use, although the new ones are a few light
years ahead of surplus superchargers the early drag racers used.

The compression ratio on a diesel engine is higher than a gasoline engine.
This is a rating of XX:1 to rate how high a pressure is created by the
upstroke of the piston when compressing the fuel/air mixture when the
piston reaches top dead center, and full compression is achieved.
Gasoline has properties that cause it to ignite when exposed to sudden
bursts of pressure, and cannot be as predictably controlled as diesel
fuel. Therefore, if gasoline is run with high pressure as an ignition
source, detonation occurs before the piston has reached top dead center,
much like any gasoline engine, yet detonation occurs so far before the
three or four degrees before top dead center of the piston travel that the
preignition knock can cause damage to the piston, cylinder walls, rings,
connecting rod, connecting rod pins, or all the above. This has been a
problem with gasoline engines for decades, particularly when engines used
a points system on the distributors with a vacuum driven mechanical
advance to adjust the spark according to driving conditions and how much
you pressed the gas pedal. Preignition knock was the cause of
catastrophic failure for an untold number of gasoline engines,
particularly in the era of the transition from leaded to unleaded
gasolines, and all the additives and fuel concoctions and devices to help
the public (and in some cases to merely relieve them of cash) didn't
really work very well.

If gasoline were to be able to be run in a diesel engine, even with the
addition of spark plugs, the operating temperatures would surely also
cause erosion of metal due to excessive pressures, and the piston rings
would soon lose their seal, making the engine stop running.. Excessive
temperature may cause melting of the components or simple seizure of the
piston in the cylinder. Your sureness that gas would run in a diesel
engine is flawed.

Differences between gas and diesel engines are many. Fuel flow, fuel
delivery, piston rings, compression ratios, metallurgy, sulfur vs.
non-sulfur fuel, gas/ethanol mixes vs. diesel fuels, properties that could
cause detonation of gasoline in diesel injector systems before the fuel
even reaches the injector nozzle, vast differences between the explosive
volatility of diesel fumes and gasoline fumes, exhaust systems combined
with emissions controls devices, changing fuels and the effect of that on
anti-pollution devices sensors and systems, catalytic converters, computer
controlled sensors valves and gates that would be pushed outside their
operational parameters with the introduction of a foreign fuel that the
system was never intended or designed to burn ........ it goes on.

Diesel fuel in a gasoline engine would not work because the compression
ratio (remember that, we touched lightly on that in another paragraph) is
not high enough to make the diesel fuel ignite, and either with a fuel
injection system, or a carburetor, it just wouldn't work, or work for very
long even with the spark plug firing. If it DID fire and run, it would
not do so for very long before spark plug fouling. Sorry I can't give you
a longer answer than that.

I may be wrong on some of the small points, and I'm sure that people here
who know far more than I do will pick apart my mistakes. This is only a
feeble attempt to explain what you requested, and no claim of perfection
is made or implied.

But I do know my ass from a hole in the ground and not to put diesel in a
gas engine, or vice versa.

Well, assuming that's really the bottom line, maybe it's safe to pick apart
some of your answer without obscuring the point. g

That certainly was a long answer, and it really runs around the horn, but
some of your concepts in there just aren't right. First, gasoline's tendency
to burn from high compression would be an issue in a diesel except that the
gasoline (or diesel) never has a chance to "preignite". It's injected long
after preignition could take place. The environment it's injected into (high
heat, high pressure) burns the fuel progressively and its cetane rating
determines how fast it burns. Conversely, its octane rating reflects its
resistance to burn rapidly from the heat of compression. Thus, if you inject
gasoline into a diesel engine it will burn, but it does so slowly, and the
engine may not run at all. That's entirely different from mixing the fuel
with the air before it gets into the engine. At a compression ratio of 20:1
or so, gasoline/air mixes would burn in a way that you could describe as an
explosion (although there was contention about this as of a couple of
decades ago -- the high-speed flame-front versus acoustic shock wave
theories of engine detonation they were then studying at MIT's Sloan labs --
I never read how it was concluded) but that's really a side issue here and
not worth discussing. The point is, there is no gasoline (or diesel fuel) in
the cylinder until it's injected, so there is no pre-ignition, no
detonation, no explosion, and the gasoline actually burns slower than diesel
fuel does in that environment. Gasoline actually can be hard to ignite at
all when it's sprayed into a diesel cylinder, at least at low temperatures,
despite what we know about the tendency of gasoline to detonate when it's
pre-mixed with the air charge in spark-ignition engines with excessively
high compression ratios. When you go to direct injection, you're changing
some of the crucial dynamics of the whole process.

Another point: there is nothing that would cause gasoline to detonate in the
injector system. Some of the current common-rail, direct (cylinder)
injection gasoline engines use pressures similar to those of common-rail,
high-pressure injection in modern diesel engines. And that's very high
pressure indeed.

Gasoline will not burn hotter in a diesel engine than diesel fuel does. In
fact, diesel has somewhat higher caloric value per unit volume ( 11% - 15%,
depending on who's measuring) and the diesel fuel will produce more heat in
the cylinder. More importantly, it will produce higher peak cylinder
temperatures because (again, due to its higher cetane rating) it burns
faster.

You may be aware that there are, or were, dual-fuel spark-ignition engines
that run on gasoline or kerosene (once they're heated up), so the volatility
of fuel oils of that grade is not so low that you can't spark-ignite it at
gasoline-engine compression ratios. They were industrial and agricultural
engines that enjoyed a reasonable operating life. I reported on a line of
such engines, made in Italy back in the '70s, that were widely used for ag
jobs throughout Europe at the time.

I listened in to an online discussion about this very subject around 20
years ago, by some very knowledgable engineers from MIT and Carnegie Mellon,
and one of them pointed out that there are a lot of incorrect assumptions
people make about these fuels based on our experience using them to start
charcoal fires. g The properties of fuels at atmospheric pressure, when
you throw a match into them to light a fire, are very different from their
behavior in an enclosed environment at high pressure and with different
systems of ignition. The idea that diesel fuel can burn faster in an engine
than gasoline does is one of the things that runs counter to our sensible
experience.

--
Ed Huntress

"JR North" wrote in message
...
If you need the long answer, it's prolly a waste of time...
Anyway, gasoline will ignite from the compression temp on injection
and burn WAAAY to fast-almost detonate, and so can do severe damage to
the structure of the engine's components. It will do little useful
work. If you dispenced with the diesel injection pump and naturally
aspirated the engine with a carburator, the gas would preignite too
early in the compression stroke and you would never get it started.
Might break the starter or a piston or two trying.You could reduce the
compression ratio to accomodate gas, but then you might as well just
use a gas engine. Trying to convert a diesel to run on gas is an
absurd notion.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


TY

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary


What you are questioning involves two different petroleum distillate
products with entirely different properties. These properties are differing
densities, differing lower flammability levels, differing lower explosive
levels, different specific densities, and countless differences in
lubricating properties. The engines designed to burn these products are
designed metallurgically and mechanically to take advantage of the
properties of each fuel and to be able to handle their consumption through a
controlled explosion. While it is true that diesel engines can be started
with gasoline in some engines specifically designed to do so, the extra
design components are not present in the common engines of either variety.

One engine uses simple compression pressure to ignite the fuel (diesel) and
an impulse spray (or two sprays in some newer models) at the precise moment,
while the other one utilizes a spark at a precise moment that is calibrated
by the timing gears and connector, be they a chain, or common gears. The
fuel delivery systems vary considerably, even in the gasoline engines, with
common aspiration by suction through a carburetor to computer controlled
fuel injection being the common types. Carburetors may be either updraft or
downdraft. And then, the fuel mixtures may be given an additional boost in
pressure by a turbocharger powered by exhaust gases or a supercharger
powered by a mechanical connector ultimately ending up at the crankshaft but
possibly running through intermittent components. Superchargers are and
were commonly used for diesel engines, and fathered drag racing's
development through the 4-71. 6-71, and the grand daddy 8-71 superchargers
of the early engines, commonly called "blowers". They are still in use,
although the new ones are a few light years ahead of surplus superchargers
the early drag racers used.

The compression ratio on a diesel engine is higher than a gasoline engine.
This is a rating of XX:1 to rate how high a pressure is created by the
upstroke of the piston when compressing the fuel/air mixture when the piston
reaches top dead center, and full compression is achieved. Gasoline has
properties that cause it to ignite when exposed to sudden bursts of
pressure, and cannot be as predictably controlled as diesel fuel.
Therefore, if gasoline is run with high pressure as an ignition source,
detonation occurs before the piston has reached top dead center, much like
any gasoline engine, yet detonation occurs so far before the three or four
degrees before top dead center of the piston travel that the preignition
knock can cause damage to the piston, cylinder walls, rings, connecting rod,
connecting rod pins, or all the above. This has been a problem with
gasoline engines for decades, particularly when engines used a points system
on the distributors with a vacuum driven mechanical advance to adjust the
spark according to driving conditions and how much you pressed the gas
pedal. Preignition knock was the cause of catastrophic failure for an
untold number of gasoline engines, particularly in the era of the transition
from leaded to unleaded gasolines, and all the additives and fuel
concoctions and devices to help the public (and in some cases to merely
relieve them of cash) didn't really work very well.

If gasoline were to be able to be run in a diesel engine, even with the
addition of spark plugs, the operating temperatures would surely also cause
erosion of metal due to excessive pressures, and the piston rings would soon
lose their seal, making the engine stop running.. Excessive temperature may
cause melting of the components or simple seizure of the piston in the
cylinder. Your sureness that gas would run in a diesel engine is flawed.

Differences between gas and diesel engines are many. Fuel flow, fuel
delivery, piston rings, compression ratios, metallurgy, sulfur vs.
non-sulfur fuel, gas/ethanol mixes vs. diesel fuels, properties that could
cause detonation of gasoline in diesel injector systems before the fuel even
reaches the injector nozzle, vast differences between the explosive
volatility of diesel fumes and gasoline fumes, exhaust systems combined with
emissions controls devices, changing fuels and the effect of that on
anti-pollution devices sensors and systems, catalytic converters, computer
controlled sensors valves and gates that would be pushed outside their
operational parameters with the introduction of a foreign fuel that the
system was never intended or designed to burn ........ it goes on.

Diesel fuel in a gasoline engine would not work because the compression
ratio (remember that, we touched lightly on that in another paragraph) is
not high enough to make the diesel fuel ignite, and either with a fuel
injection system, or a carburetor, it just wouldn't work, or work for very
long even with the spark plug firing. If it DID fire and run, it would not
do so for very long before spark plug fouling. Sorry I can't give you a
longer answer than that.

I may be wrong on some of the small points, and I'm sure that people here
who know far more than I do will pick apart my mistakes. This is only a
feeble attempt to explain what you requested, and no claim of perfection is
made or implied.

But I do know my ass from a hole in the ground and not to put diesel in a
gas engine, or vice versa.

Hope this is a long enough answer. If not, go to Google. After that, if
you're still wondering, dazed, and confused, just go try it and report back
on how it goes.

Steve

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:19:36 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:


If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?


I own a diesel F-250 and wouldn't dare do that. I previously, years
ago, owned a Mercedes 300-D and the manual actually stated that - during
cold weather - (I think it was so qualified) one could mix UP TO 30%
gasoline with the diesel fuel. I suspect this was to help prevent the
diesel fuel from congealing.

I have heard stories, unverified, that a diesel will "run away" on
gasoline and over rev the engine, possibly disassembling itself,
internally if not externally. A diesel operates at much higher
pressures than a gasoline engine. The gasoline is far more explosive
than diesel fuel. The diesel uses no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Instead it uses pressure to explode the fuel.

Take this for as much verification as you think it's worth...

On at least one occasion my dad came home from the fire station with a
story of a truck engine running away when the guys put gasoline in the
tank instead of diesel fuel.

I don't see why this should happen _in theory_ as a diesel is throttled
by controlling the amount of fuel injected, but I could certainly see it
happening in practice if the lower viscosity of gas let it flow at a too-
high volume.

IIRC one shuts down a runaway diesel by shutting off the air. There is
(was) supposed to be an emergency shut-off valve in the intake of every
diesel motor, but in a pinch one could use articles of clothing stuffed
into the intake.

--
Tim Wescott

IHMO, it would take someone with brass balls to climb up there and do it!

Steve

Ignoramus9437 wrote:
On 2008-04-12, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the engine. If
you don't understand the difference between diesels and gas engines, you
wouldn't understand the long answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a spark ignited
engine. While my thermodynamics classes were decades ago we did study the
matter.


Gas does not have the lubricating qualities of diesel, and can ruin
injectors and pumps that are not designed to handle it.

Even some diesel fuels don't have the lubricity of other diesel fuels.
IIRC the newer low sulphur fuels have lower lubricity than the older
fuels and can lead to shortened lives in some older injection pumps.
There are multifuel engines, such as what are installed on some
military trucks, made by Continental, that would run on just about
anything -- but you need to do some mechanic work to switch over. It
is not as simple as pouring a new tank of whatever is your latest
greasy find.

i



I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well during a diesel
cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have to be reduced thereby also
reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary

Ed. as always, I appreciate your response. I used to run a bit of
diesel in old gasoline engines before computers and what not. I'm
sure it was as ignorant as adding gasoline to diesel fuel.

I was believing your frank, honest style, but the technical
article just made it dance. Thanks. I wish more people would
limit their comments to facts, not hyperbola.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:U9VLj.47$DD2.38@trndny04...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...



Short answer is that it wouldn't work, and it would ruin the
engine. If you don't understand the difference between
diesels and gas engines, you wouldn't understand the long
answer.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the insult.

I do understand the difference between a diesel cycle and a
spark ignited engine. While my thermodynamics classes were
decades ago we did study the matter.

I am sure that gasoline would also self-ignite quite well
during a diesel cycle. Maybe the compression ratio would have
to be reduced thereby also reducing stress on the engine parts.

Try me with your longer answer and see if I can comprehend.

Ivan Vegvary

Let me try a shorter one, because I'm sure you'll see the
implications. The cetane rating of gasoline is too low. It won't
run well, if at all, in a diesel engine. Contrary to some of the
remarks here, it won't even ignite in a diesel at low
temperatures. That's what octane is all about: the function of
octane is to reduce the fuel's tendency to ignite from the heat
of pressurization. Diesel fuel has a very low octane rating. It
ignites much more easily from the heat of compression.

Also, as someone else pointed out, gasoline has no lubricating
properties and the higher mechanical stresses of a diesel
require some lubrication from the fuel to get those famous long
cylinder lives.

Don't take it from me. Here's an engineer on the subject, and he
really seems to know what he's talking about:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/m...and_diesel.htm

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 11, 10:50*pm, Ignoramus9437
wrote:

There are multifuel engines, such as what are installed on some
military trucks, made by Continental, that would run on just about
anything -- but you need to do some mechanic work to switch over. It
is not as simple as pouring a new tank of whatever is your latest
greasy find.

I drove one of these in 1972-3 in Germany:
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/mil/m109spin_large.gif

There was rumored to be some procedure for switching between gas and
diesel which AFAIK no one ever followed. We filled them with diesel at
the Kaserne and regular gas on the road.

The exhaust was slightly louder and rougher on gas but performance was
the same. They started about as well on either fuel in cold weather,
even on frigid mountaintop radio relay sites.

I think the tax exemption deal we had with the German government
didn't include diesel. 3/4 of the price of fuel was tax, according to
large signs on the pumps. Untaxed regular cost us $0.18/Gal.

I did all the routine maintenance on it but never had to touch the
engine. Changing one of those split-rim tires is quite a project!

Maybe you can find some technical information on the Multifuel engines
for the M35 or M44 series trucks. The standard name for them is "Deuce-
and-a-half", which refers to their 2.5 ton off-road load rating. I
believe the "09" in a circle is the empty weight for small bridges.

Jim Wilkins

"SteveB" wrote in news:4ut5d5-efo2.ln1
@news.infowest.com:

IHMO, it would take someone with brass balls to climb up there and do it!

Don't worry - they've got them.

Proof: Who else would go into a burning building voluntarily just to see if
there's anyone in it?

There's an excellent reason that, while Law Enforcement Officers may be
known as the "Finest", Fire Fighters are referred to as the "Bravest".

Do you want to know who'd qualify as the "Craziest"?

*Volunteer* Fire Fighters.

They're the ones who pay for and/or build their own equipment, consider
themselves to on-duty 24/7, and still work for a living doing something
unrelated.

"Roger Shoaf" wrote in
:

What I am wondering is if Automatic transmission fluid could be used
to run the engine. Also if it could, what would I have to do with the
drained used ATF to burn it. The transmission shop would probably be
tickled pink to get a buck a gallon for the drain oil.

Are you talking new or used oil?

If used, you'd be asking for big problems even if you'd filtered the
daylights out of it.

Either way, you'd be better off using Wesson Oil. G

Those who are trying to run used fry oil have to filter it first to remove
not only the contaminants (carbon, batter/potato/fish particles, etc.) but
the Pumice particles as well. [Pumice is used in commercial fry oil to act
as a "gunk-grabber" to help the oil stay "cleaner" longer.]

While the concept of cheap, untaxed, "Green" fuel sounds good, reality has
a habit of getting in the way.

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:19:36 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:


If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?


I own a diesel F-250 and wouldn't dare do that. I previously, years
ago, owned a Mercedes 300-D and the manual actually stated that - during
cold weather - (I think it was so qualified) one could mix UP TO 30%
gasoline with the diesel fuel. I suspect this was to help prevent the
diesel fuel from congealing.

I have heard stories, unverified, that a diesel will "run away" on
gasoline and over rev the engine, possibly disassembling itself,
internally if not externally. A diesel operates at much higher
pressures than a gasoline engine. The gasoline is far more explosive
than diesel fuel. The diesel uses no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Instead it uses pressure to explode the fuel.

Take this for as much verification as you think it's worth...

On at least one occasion my dad came home from the fire station with a
story of a truck engine running away when the guys put gasoline in the
tank instead of diesel fuel.

I don't see why this should happen _in theory_ as a diesel is throttled
by controlling the amount of fuel injected, but I could certainly see it
happening in practice if the lower viscosity of gas let it flow at a too-
high volume.

IIRC one shuts down a runaway diesel by shutting off the air. There is
(was) supposed to be an emergency shut-off valve in the intake of every
diesel motor, but in a pinch one could use articles of clothing stuffed
into the intake.




I used to have a service manual on hand when starting freshly overhauled
engines. I only had to use it once to block the intake of a runaway motor.
Steve

"Eregon" wrote in message
...
"Roger Shoaf" wrote in
:

What I am wondering is if Automatic transmission fluid could be used
to run the engine. Also if it could, what would I have to do with the
drained used ATF to burn it. The transmission shop would probably be
tickled pink to get a buck a gallon for the drain oil.

Are you talking new or used oil?

If used, you'd be asking for big problems even if you'd filtered the
daylights out of it.

Either way, you'd be better off using Wesson Oil. G

ATF, mixed with balsamic vinegar and seasoned with garlic, dill, and thyme,
gives your diesel exhaust a much more pleasant aroma. And you can always
dress a salad with any leftovers.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:58:53 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:

Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such a
knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout the
fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I remember
correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil, liquefied lard,
charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary


Back in the 80's I read an article about
the public bus fleet in Brazil.
MBdiesel buses modified to run on alcohol.
The mods were very minor, pump timing ect.

Small amounts of crankcase oil was routed to the injector
pump and mixed with the alcohol to increase it's lubertisity.

The project report was at the end of a long term experimental phase,
most busses had several hundred K miles on them with no serious
problems. Combustion water in the crank was the only big issue IIRC,
and was resolved via oil additives or something.

Brazil has no petrolium resources and relied on sugar cane
to produce ethenol. I believe they were/are 100%
independent from oil imports..

We should be doing more in this country--not with corn
but with sugar beets....and oil seeds..

But to directly answer your question gas will ruin your
diesel as noted in the above replies.
.... ED

Roger Shoaf wrote:


I drive an old Mercedes diesel and I understand that the car will run on
gasoline in a pinch but the performance really sucks. For instance if I was
almost out of diesel and had a 100 miles to get it, I could get a half a
tank of gas to get me to the place where I could buy diesel.

What I am wondering is if Automatic transmission fluid could be used to run
the engine. Also if it could, what would I have to do with the drained used
ATF to burn it. The transmission shop would probably be tickled pink to get
a buck a gallon for the drain oil.



As I understand the old Merc diesels, they will run on about anything
that can be coaxed to burn, from gasoline through vegetable oil or bacon
fat, if you can keep it liquid.

ATF is recomended by some as a fill on the fuel filter each time it is
changed out, and I can tell you from experience, that my VW Jetta burns
it just fine. It is said to add a bit of lubrication, and a bit of peace
of mind, to those that worry about the fuel not being enough...Too
expensive to run all the time, but if I had a source for quantities of
the stuff, I'd be faster looking at that than mucking about with
vegetable oil.
I'd want to be able to filter it all pretty reliably before I dumped
it in, though.
The older machines seem more tolerant of such chicanerey with
"optional" fuels.

I have heard tales of guys using gas in diesel engines on an emergency
basis, adding quantities of engine oil as well in the hopes that it
would help. Mostly loggers needing to "stretch" a tank of gas to make it
all the way back to town.
Falls into the category of, "you can do it, but...."

Better to be running a gas engine on diesel though, such as was done
with many tractors over the ages, where the engine would be started and
warmed up on gas and then switched over to run on diesel (or more
commonly, I gather, kerosene).

At the cost of a diesel engine, I would suggest to the OP that running
his Kubota on gasoline will represent a bargain, for the guy that sells
him the new engine. Kinda offsets the miniscule difference in fuel price.
Around here the price of diesel has balanced out to be pretty much a
balance of dollars to distance travelled. For a given vehicle, the $50
worth of fuel will get you as far, no matter whether it is gas or
diesel. A byproduct of the increased consumer demand for diesel, and the
fact that we ain't gonna walk everywhere, no matter how painful the bite
at the pump...Ugh.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"DanG" wrote in message
...
Ed. as always, I appreciate your response. I used to run a bit of diesel
in old gasoline engines before computers and what not. I'm sure it was as
ignorant as adding gasoline to diesel fuel.

I was believing your frank, honest style, but the technical article just
made it dance. Thanks. I wish more people would limit their comments to
facts, not hyperbola.

Thanks for your kind comments, Dan.

Regarding that article, I thought it was very good but I think I spotted one
error. He says that gasoline burns hotter than diesel. He apparently wrote
that article sometime in the mid- or late-'90s, and he may not have had easy
access to the nifty engineering Java appletts available to us today. I just
scrounged one up --

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan...Flamemain.html

-- and checked the flame temperatures of diesel and gasoline at one
atmosphere (101 kPa) and ten atmospheres of pressure. The program indicates
that diesel burns around 130 deg. C hotter in both cases.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:23:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"DanG" wrote in message
...
Ed. as always, I appreciate your response. I used to run a bit of diesel
in old gasoline engines before computers and what not. I'm sure it was as
ignorant as adding gasoline to diesel fuel.

I was believing your frank, honest style, but the technical article just
made it dance. Thanks. I wish more people would limit their comments to
facts, not hyperbola.

Thanks for your kind comments, Dan.

Regarding that article, I thought it was very good but I think I spotted one
error. He says that gasoline burns hotter than diesel. He apparently wrote
that article sometime in the mid- or late-'90s, and he may not have had easy
access to the nifty engineering Java appletts available to us today. I just
scrounged one up --

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan...Flamemain.html

-- and checked the flame temperatures of diesel and gasoline at one
atmosphere (101 kPa) and ten atmospheres of pressure. The program indicates
that diesel burns around 130 deg. C hotter in both cases.

The article had a number of misconceptions in it. As mentioned above
diesel fuel has a higher burning temperature. The guy says that
compounds of carbon and hydrogen are called paraffine while actually
in the trade they are called hydro-carbons. He seemed to say that
because gasoline had a high octane number it wouldn't ignite in a
compression ignition engine. I can tell you that for sure it will, In
fact it will ignite so fiercely it will even break piston rings (ask
me how I discovered this).

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

"RAM³" wrote:

"SteveB" wrote in news:4ut5d5-efo2.ln1
@news.infowest.com:

IHMO, it would take someone with brass balls to climb up there and do it!

Don't worry - they've got them.

Proof: Who else would go into a burning building voluntarily just to see if
there's anyone in it?

There's an excellent reason that, while Law Enforcement Officers may be
known as the "Finest", Fire Fighters are referred to as the "Bravest".

Do you want to know who'd qualify as the "Craziest"?

*Volunteer* Fire Fighters.

They're the ones who pay for and/or build their own equipment, consider
themselves to on-duty 24/7, and still work for a living doing something
unrelated.


I had the local chief of a volunteer fire department screaming at me
that it wasn't legal to hang temporary work lights from overhead wires
at the job site. The firehouse was less than 100 feet away. I asked
him to follow me, and walked into the firehouse. I hit their breaker box
with my fist, and sparks lit up the room. I told him that I had
reported it as defective when I was a boy scout and our troop held our
meetings there, over 20 years earlier and they still hadn't had it
fixed. He informed me they didn't have to obey the law.


--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file
* drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html


Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET
with porn and junk commercial SPAM

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:23:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"DanG" wrote in message
...
Ed. as always, I appreciate your response. I used to run a bit of
diesel
in old gasoline engines before computers and what not. I'm sure it was
as
ignorant as adding gasoline to diesel fuel.

I was believing your frank, honest style, but the technical article just
made it dance. Thanks. I wish more people would limit their comments
to
facts, not hyperbola.

Thanks for your kind comments, Dan.

Regarding that article, I thought it was very good but I think I spotted
one
error. He says that gasoline burns hotter than diesel. He apparently wrote
that article sometime in the mid- or late-'90s, and he may not have had
easy
access to the nifty engineering Java appletts available to us today. I
just
scrounged one up --

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan...Flamemain.html

-- and checked the flame temperatures of diesel and gasoline at one
atmosphere (101 kPa) and ten atmospheres of pressure. The program
indicates
that diesel burns around 130 deg. C hotter in both cases.

The article had a number of misconceptions in it. As mentioned above
diesel fuel has a higher burning temperature.

True. It's not a great deal higher, but 130 deg. C (around 230 deg. F)
should make a difference. That's around 7% or so of their respective
combustion temperatures, on the Kelvin scale.

The guy says that
compounds of carbon and hydrogen are called paraffine while actually
in the trade they are called hydro-carbons.

I hesitate to get into chemistry, but what he said is technically correct.
Chains of C and H are known generically in the field as paraffins, or
alkanes.

He seemed to say that
because gasoline had a high octane number it wouldn't ignite in a
compression ignition engine. I can tell you that for sure it will, In
fact it will ignite so fiercely it will even break piston rings (ask
me how I discovered this).

I don't think he said that. He said that gasoline will resist igniting and
burning under compression. I know this goes against our experience with
high-compression SI engines, but consider this: Cetane is the basis for
rating a fuel's speed of burning from the heat of compression. Gasoline has
a cetane rating on the order of 25. Diesel ranges from a low of 37 or so to
a high of 55. Diesel will burn faster, and it will ignite easier, under
compression. Unless you go to the SME or MIT research sources, it seems
unlikely to me that we'll find much factual info about the combustion
process of gasoline in a diesel, which has timed cylinder injection as well
as compression.

As for what happened to your piston rings, we can at least confirm that
gasoline burns slowly and unreliably in a diesel, and I suspect (but can't
confirm; the facts may be available from the academic sources) that enough
remains to be burned as the cylinder reaches peak pressure that it may
detonate, like it does in a SI engine with too much advance or too much
compression. When the engine is burning diesel fuel, combustion is much
faster and the fuel probably never has a chance to reach the corners of the
combustion chamber (that's where detonation occurs in a SI engine) before
being consumed. So the diesel fuel burns faster, but also much more
smoothly.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

snip

Unless you go to the SME or MIT research sources...

That should be SAE, not SME.

And regarding the corners of the combustion chambers, that should be the
corners of the combustion *space*. Detonation is most likely to occur where
the piston meets the cylinder walls.

--
Ed Huntress

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...

snip

He seemed to say that
because gasoline had a high octane number it wouldn't ignite in a
compression ignition engine. I can tell you that for sure it will, In
fact it will ignite so fiercely it will even break piston rings (ask
me how I discovered this).

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

If you're interested in the subject, a quick search of SAE papers came up
with this, which suggests that gasoline in a diesel engine produces high
pressure gradients. That's the prescription for detonation:

================================================== =====
An Investigation of Injection Rate Controlled Heat Release of Low Cetane
Fuels in a Direct Injected Diesel Engine
Document Number: 902061

Date Published: October 1990

Author(s):
Bradlee J. Stroia - Cummins Engine Co., Inc.
Kenneth E. Abbott - Stripping Technologies, Inc.

Abstract:
Assisted ignition and subsequent combustion of various fuels differing in
volatility and viscosity in a diesel engine is herein described. This study
was conducted to investigate the feasibility of igniting low cetane fuels at
the immediate vicinity of the nozzle orifice in an attempt to produce
injection rate controlled heat release. Four fuels were studied: a high
viscosity, low volatility diesel blend, a low viscosity, high volatility
diesel blend, strait gasoline, and No. 2 diesel fuel which was used as a
baseline for comparison purposes. A droplet ignition delay model was used to
provide insight into the various physical processes that occur when heat
release is controlled by rate of injection. Split injection timing predicted
by the model resulted in the successful occurrence of rate controlled heat
release for all of the fuels tested. Further, results of this study
demonstrate that high pressure gradients normally associated with low cetane
fuels can be significantly reduced or entirely eliminated with this ignition
technique. The fuels examined in this study bracketed a broad spectrum of
fuel distillate thereby demonstrating the usefulness of this technique for
other fuels as well as those tested.
================================================== ======

It will cost you $14 for the paper if you want to find out. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:48:43 -0700, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:


"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:xHULj.28$vz2.3@trndny05...
Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such
a
knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout
the
fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I
remember
correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil, liquefied
lard,
charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary



I drive an old Mercedes diesel and I understand that the car will run on
gasoline in a pinch but the performance really sucks. For instance if I was
almost out of diesel and had a 100 miles to get it, I could get a half a
tank of gas to get me to the place where I could buy diesel.

What I am wondering is if Automatic transmission fluid could be used to run
the engine. Also if it could, what would I have to do with the drained used
ATF to burn it. The transmission shop would probably be tickled pink to get
a buck a gallon for the drain oil.


First of all it would need to be filtered REAL well to get any
metallic microgrit out of it, and I imagine you would almost have to
mix it with diesel to get the viscosity down a bit or pre-heat it.
It will burn in a diesel engine.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:16:41 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:19:36 -0400, Al Patrick wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:


If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?


I own a diesel F-250 and wouldn't dare do that. I previously, years
ago, owned a Mercedes 300-D and the manual actually stated that - during
cold weather - (I think it was so qualified) one could mix UP TO 30%
gasoline with the diesel fuel. I suspect this was to help prevent the
diesel fuel from congealing.

I have heard stories, unverified, that a diesel will "run away" on
gasoline and over rev the engine, possibly disassembling itself,
internally if not externally. A diesel operates at much higher
pressures than a gasoline engine. The gasoline is far more explosive
than diesel fuel. The diesel uses no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Instead it uses pressure to explode the fuel.

Take this for as much verification as you think it's worth...

On at least one occasion my dad came home from the fire station with a
story of a truck engine running away when the guys put gasoline in the
tank instead of diesel fuel.

I don't see why this should happen _in theory_ as a diesel is throttled
by controlling the amount of fuel injected, but I could certainly see it
happening in practice if the lower viscosity of gas let it flow at a too-
high volume.

IIRC one shuts down a runaway diesel by shutting off the air. There is
(was) supposed to be an emergency shut-off valve in the intake of every
diesel motor, but in a pinch one could use articles of clothing stuffed
into the intake.


I've seen a turbocharged Fiat-Allis loader suck a complete pair of
coveralls through the intake without even slowing down, running on
crankcase oil from a fractured piston. It was finally subdued by
slapping a shovel over the intake. I think it was well over 6000 RPM
when the shovel came out of no-where. Everyone else was running for
cover.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **