clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:04:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:



More to do with the actual fuel composition than the actual octane
rating, wouldn't you agree?

No, they're talking about octane ratings, and you'll find the same pattern
for gasoline and other high-octane fuels versus diesel fuel, throughout
the
literature. The issue here is the differences in performance relative to
different octane rating systems.


You will admit, will you not, that propane, ethanol, and leaded racing
fuel will have 3 very widely varying burn speeds, very different
flamability ranges, extremely differing autoignition specs, widely
disparate energy densities,just as widely disparate specific gravities
and reid vapour pressures, yet very close to the same octane?

I have no idea. Where's the data?


SO.
Octane has NOTHING to do with flame front speed, nothing to do with
autoignition temperatures, nothing to do with vapour pressure, power
density,specific gravity, or ANY other property except the resistance
to detonation in a spark ignition internal combustion engine.

Where's the data?


It MAY have an effect on the operation of a compression ignition
engine as well - I would say there is little chance that any fuel with
high octane would run successfully in a standard CI engine - but
octane, by it's definition has little if any to do with compression
ignition engine operation.

Well, it's commonly said in the literature that cetane and octane have an
inverse relationship.


The big MYTHS out there are several, including but not limited to the
following:

Clare, I don't think I've heard most of those myths, and we've departed
pretty far from the question of what gasoline does in a diesel engine.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:06:17 GMT, Howard Eisenhauer
wrote:


On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:58:53 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:

Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such a
knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout the
fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I remember
correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil, liquefied lard,
charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary


Most Diesels will object loudly to running on gasoline but there are
ones around that will handle it, the M35 series of military trucks had
a multifuel Diesel engine that would run on diesel, jet A, kerosean,
gasoline & K-rations (later modded for MREs)

H.


So THATS what the Ethiopians did with em!

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:48:23 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:04:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:



More to do with the actual fuel composition than the actual octane
rating, wouldn't you agree?

No, they're talking about octane ratings, and you'll find the same pattern
for gasoline and other high-octane fuels versus diesel fuel, throughout
the
literature. The issue here is the differences in performance relative to
different octane rating systems.


You will admit, will you not, that propane, ethanol, and leaded racing
fuel will have 3 very widely varying burn speeds, very different
flamability ranges, extremely differing autoignition specs, widely
disparate energy densities,just as widely disparate specific gravities
and reid vapour pressures, yet very close to the same octane?

I have no idea. Where's the data?


SO.
Octane has NOTHING to do with flame front speed, nothing to do with
autoignition temperatures, nothing to do with vapour pressure, power
density,specific gravity, or ANY other property except the resistance
to detonation in a spark ignition internal combustion engine.

Where's the data?


It MAY have an effect on the operation of a compression ignition
engine as well - I would say there is little chance that any fuel with
high octane would run successfully in a standard CI engine - but
octane, by it's definition has little if any to do with compression
ignition engine operation.

Well, it's commonly said in the literature that cetane and octane have an
inverse relationship.


The big MYTHS out there are several, including but not limited to the
following:

Clare, I don't think I've heard most of those myths, and we've departed
pretty far from the question of what gasoline does in a diesel engine.

Cetane is the measurement of the time taken for a fuel to start
burning. Usually measured from the time of injection, on a diesel
engine, until the start of combustion.

Octane numbers measure the resistance to detonation..

Both names, by the way, came from the two hydro-carbons that were used
as testing standards.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...

snip

Cetane is the measurement of the time taken for a fuel to start
burning. Usually measured from the time of injection, on a diesel
engine, until the start of combustion.

Actually, it's measured as either the time to build up cylinder pressure to
a certain value, or the cylinder pressure value at a specific time (13
milliseconds after injection of a unit volume of fuel was what I saw in one
of the tech papers.) So it measures both the time to ignite and the
propagation speed of combustion.


Octane numbers measure the resistance to detonation.

Autoignition. It may or may not result in detonation. Autoignition is the
process by which diesels ignite their fuel, so cetane and octane are said to
be opposite values.


Both names, by the way, came from the two hydro-carbons that were used
as testing standards.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...

snip

Cetane is the measurement of the time taken for a fuel to start
burning. Usually measured from the time of injection, on a diesel
engine, until the start of combustion.

Actually, it's measured as either the time to build up cylinder pressure
to a certain value, or the cylinder pressure value at a specific time (13
milliseconds after injection of a unit volume of fuel was what I saw in
one of the tech papers.) So it measures both the time to ignite and the
propagation speed of combustion.


Octane numbers measure the resistance to detonation.

Autoignition. It may or may not result in detonation. Autoignition is the
process by which diesels ignite their fuel, so cetane and octane are said
to be opposite values.

What I should have said there is that autoignition is a close analog of
detonation, because at least two of the measures of octane do indeed base it
on propensity to detonate. It's because they're close analogs that cetane
and octane ratings aren't *exact* opposites. But they're close.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:


What I was referring to is just what was in the abstract I posted ("A
Theoretical and Experimental Study of the Modes of End Gas Autoignition
Leading to Knock in S.I. Engines") from the University of Leeds. I don't
have the full article, so I don't have a further explanation.


Just to slightly sidetrack things, have you seen this Ed?

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html

Or

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html

One of the reasons I distrust the EPA, is that they banned certain
engine types, rather than allow development to meet emission standards.

The 4-stroke cycle: 1 stroke to make power, 3 to wear it out. ;-)

Pete


--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College

---------------------------------------------------------------------
All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;
the point is to discover them.

Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ----------------------
For a quality mail server, try SurgeMail, easy to install,
fast, efficient and reliable. Run a million users on a standard
PC running NT or Unix without running out of power, use the best!
---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgemail.htm ----

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:33:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .

snip

Cetane is the measurement of the time taken for a fuel to start
burning. Usually measured from the time of injection, on a diesel
engine, until the start of combustion.

Actually, it's measured as either the time to build up cylinder pressure to
a certain value, or the cylinder pressure value at a specific time (13
milliseconds after injection of a unit volume of fuel was what I saw in one
of the tech papers.) So it measures both the time to ignite and the
propagation speed of combustion

It is a measure of how long the period is from injection to
combustion. The method of measurement (which you are referring to)
varies from institute to institute. It can be as you describe above,
or it can be a different measurement, but in any case it is just a
measurement of time required for combustion to be initiated.

Octane numbers measure the resistance to detonation.

Autoignition. It may or may not result in detonation. Autoignition is the
process by which diesels ignite their fuel, so cetane and octane are said to
be opposite values.


Auto ignition is not how a diesel ignites its fuel. A compression
ignition engine compresses air to above the ignition temperature of
the fuel and then injects the fuel into the preheated air causing the
fuel to ignite.

I hate to be argumentive but I worked in the Indonesian government
Petroleum Labs for a couple of years and I didn;t hear any of the
people from the French Petroleum Institute (who were the main
consultants) compare Octane to Centane ratings. They measure two
different things that apply to two different types of engines.

Octane applies to gasoline powering a spark ignition engine. Centane
applies diesel fuel powering a compression ignition engine. You can
interpolate all you want but I can assure you that in an engine lab
they do not use the compression ignition engine to test for octane
rating nor the spark ignition engines to test for centane rating.

Both names, by the way, came from the two hydro-carbons that were used
as testing standards.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Actually, the project is to check out the very low end of the biofuels.
I strongly suspect that the target fuels would make canola oil look like
wonderful stuff. It might make a new meaning for the term 'bio sludge'

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:50:08 -0500, RoyJ
wrote:

Very interesting discussion. I've been asked to be the project manager
for an alternate fuels project based around a 100kw Cat diesel
generator. Fire up on a new fuel, check for short term issues, go to a
50% load then 100% load for 8 to 24 hours, then tear down and look for
damage. Looks like I would be spending more time than planned dealing
with the injector pump. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

What are the alternate fuels they want to check?

If it's natural gas, Caterpillar has off the shelf engines to do
that. No experimenting or reinventing the wheel needed - just couple,
plumb and go.

If it's canola or other vegetable oils, they have specs for getting
the glycerine out, and the concentrations allowed. IIRC they only
allow B-20 right now (80% regular diesel) if you still want warranty
coverage, but that may well have changed.

For B-100, yeah you'd want to keep an eye on the injector pump.

-- Bruce --

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:57:59 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:31:27 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
. ..

snip


True detonation is not just extremely fast burning (conflargation?).
It is the equivalent to a small charge of high explosive being set off
in the cyl.It is almost always detrimental to engine life as well as
power output.

Perhaps this is whed Ed is aluding to with the multiple modes of
detonation?

What I was referring to is just what was in the abstract I posted ("A
Theoretical and Experimental Study of the Modes of End Gas Autoignition
Leading to Knock in S.I. Engines") from the University of Leeds. I don't
have the full article, so I don't have a further explanation.

But that basic definition shows up in several papers I encountered on the
SAE website. There is conflagration (very rapid burning); developing
detonation; and explosion. Several papers say it is the developing
detonation phase that causes most of the damage.

Damage is most likely caused by the advanced timing effect which is
brought about by detonation. The mixture explodes as the piston is
coming -up- to TDC on the compression stroke. Rods, pistons, head
gaskets, and rod bearings don't like that at all. It's almost as much
fun as that neat trick called "hydrostatic lock."

You are mistaking pre-ignition for detonation. Detonation occurs AFTER
the spark has lit the fuel.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Speaking from experience...

I ran a VW Rabbit Diesel on Waste Vegetable Oil for a short spell.

I put 2 galleons of Wesson through it as a test, then ran seveal gallons of
filtered deep fryer juice.

You couldn't tell the difference while driving.

I did, however, start the engine on diesel, and purge with diesel before
shutting it off.

I had great success with homebrew biodeiesel.



"RoyJ" wrote in message
m...
Actually, the project is to check out the very low end of the biofuels. I
strongly suspect that the target fuels would make canola oil look like
wonderful stuff. It might make a new meaning for the term 'bio sludge'

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:50:08 -0500, RoyJ
wrote:

Very interesting discussion. I've been asked to be the project manager
for an alternate fuels project based around a 100kw Cat diesel
generator. Fire up on a new fuel, check for short term issues, go to a
50% load then 100% load for 8 to 24 hours, then tear down and look for
damage. Looks like I would be spending more time than planned dealing
with the injector pump. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

What are the alternate fuels they want to check?

If it's natural gas, Caterpillar has off the shelf engines to do
that. No experimenting or reinventing the wheel needed - just couple,
plumb and go.

If it's canola or other vegetable oils, they have specs for getting
the glycerine out, and the concentrations allowed. IIRC they only
allow B-20 right now (80% regular diesel) if you still want warranty
coverage, but that may well have changed. For B-100, yeah you'd want to
keep an eye on the injector pump.

-- Bruce --

"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:


What I was referring to is just what was in the abstract I posted ("A
Theoretical and Experimental Study of the Modes of End Gas Autoignition
Leading to Knock in S.I. Engines") from the University of Leeds. I don't
have the full article, so I don't have a further explanation.


Just to slightly sidetrack things, have you seen this Ed?

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html


Yeah, they had one of these on display at my local Honda Powerhouse bike
shop, and the owner spent some time showing it to me. Very interesting.


Or

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html

One of the reasons I distrust the EPA, is that they banned certain
engine types, rather than allow development to meet emission standards.

The 4-stroke cycle: 1 stroke to make power, 3 to wear it out. ;-)

Pete


--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College

---------------------------------------------------------------------
All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;
the point is to discover them.

Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ----------------------
For a quality mail server, try SurgeMail, easy to install,
fast, efficient and reliable. Run a million users on a standard
PC running NT or Unix without running out of power, use the best!
---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgemail.htm ----

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:48:23 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:04:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:



More to do with the actual fuel composition than the actual octane
rating, wouldn't you agree?

No, they're talking about octane ratings, and you'll find the same pattern
for gasoline and other high-octane fuels versus diesel fuel, throughout
the
literature. The issue here is the differences in performance relative to
different octane rating systems.


You will admit, will you not, that propane, ethanol, and leaded racing
fuel will have 3 very widely varying burn speeds, very different
flamability ranges, extremely differing autoignition specs, widely
disparate energy densities,just as widely disparate specific gravities
and reid vapour pressures, yet very close to the same octane?

I have no idea. Where's the data?

You want data - THAT I can give you.(Except for burn speed)




Property Ethanol Gasoline Propane #2 fuel
Chemical Formula C2H5OH C4 to C12 C3H8 C3 to C25
Molecular Weight 46.07 100€“105 44.1 200
Carbon 52.2 85€“88 82 84-87
Hydrogen 13.1 12€“15 18 33-16
Oxygen 34.7 0 0 0
Specific gravity, 60° F/60° F 0.796 0.72€“0.78 .508 0.81-0.89
Density, lb/gal @ 60° F 6.61 6.0€“6.5 4.22 6.7-7.4
Boiling temperature, °F 172 80€“437 -44 370-650
Reid vapor pressure, psi 2.3 8€“15 208 0.2
Research octane no. 108 90€“100 112 NR
Motor octane no. 92 81€“90 97 NR
(R + M)/2 100 86€“94 104 NR
Cetane no.(1) NR 5€“20 NR 40-55
Lower Flammability limit 4.3% 1.4% 2.2% 1%
Upper flammability limit 7.6% 19% 9.5% 6%
Flash point (open cup) 55 -45 -100-150 165
Autoignition temp 793F 495 850-950 600

Source: http://www.methanol.org/pdf/FuelProperties.pdf

Lower combustability range from 1.4 to 4.3%
Upper combustability range from 7.6 to 19%
Autoignition from495 to 950F
SG from 0.5 to 0.8
RVP from 2.3 to 208

Total octane spread (RON) 100 to 112 (high test gasoline)
Total MON spread (MON) 90 to 97 (high test gasoline)



SO.
Octane has NOTHING to do with flame front speed, nothing to do with
autoignition temperatures, nothing to do with vapour pressure, power
density,specific gravity, or ANY other property except the resistance
to detonation in a spark ignition internal combustion engine.

Where's the data?


It MAY have an effect on the operation of a compression ignition
engine as well - I would say there is little chance that any fuel with
high octane would run successfully in a standard CI engine - but
octane, by it's definition has little if any to do with compression
ignition engine operation.

Well, it's commonly said in the literature that cetane and octane have an
inverse relationship.


The big MYTHS out there are several, including but not limited to the
following:

Clare, I don't think I've heard most of those myths, and we've departed
pretty far from the question of what gasoline does in a diesel engine.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:23:23 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:


Auto ignition is not how a diesel ignites its fuel. A compression
ignition engine compresses air to above the ignition temperature of
the fuel and then injects the fuel into the preheated air causing the
fuel to ignite.

I hate to be argumentive but I worked in the Indonesian government
Petroleum Labs for a couple of years and I didn;t hear any of the
people from the French Petroleum Institute (who were the main
consultants) compare Octane to Centane ratings. They measure two
different things that apply to two different types of engines.

Octane applies to gasoline powering a spark ignition engine. Centane
applies diesel fuel powering a compression ignition engine. You can
interpolate all you want but I can assure you that in an engine lab
they do not use the compression ignition engine to test for octane
rating nor the spark ignition engines to test for centane rating.


Actually, of 8 different fuels rated (including ethanol, methanol, #2
diesel, gasoline, propane, hydrogen,MTBE and CNG, only TWO are rated
for Cetane.

Gasoline (at 5 to 20) and #2 diesel (at 40 to 55)
#2 diesel is the only one that had NO octane rating.

INTERRRESTING!!!

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:33:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
. ..

snip

Cetane is the measurement of the time taken for a fuel to start
burning. Usually measured from the time of injection, on a diesel
engine, until the start of combustion.

Actually, it's measured as either the time to build up cylinder pressure
to
a certain value, or the cylinder pressure value at a specific time (13
milliseconds after injection of a unit volume of fuel was what I saw in
one
of the tech papers.) So it measures both the time to ignite and the
propagation speed of combustion

It is a measure of how long the period is from injection to
combustion. The method of measurement (which you are referring to)
varies from institute to institute. It can be as you describe above,
or it can be a different measurement, but in any case it is just a
measurement of time required for combustion to be initiated.

Octane numbers measure the resistance to detonation.

Autoignition. It may or may not result in detonation. Autoignition is the
process by which diesels ignite their fuel, so cetane and octane are said
to
be opposite values.


Auto ignition is not how a diesel ignites its fuel. A compression
ignition engine compresses air to above the ignition temperature of
the fuel and then injects the fuel into the preheated air causing the
fuel to ignite.

That's what autoignition is, Bruce. It doesn't have to be in a homogeneous
mixture. Regular stratified-charge diesels ignite by autoignition, too.


I hate to be argumentive but I worked in the Indonesian government
Petroleum Labs for a couple of years and I didn;t hear any of the
people from the French Petroleum Institute (who were the main
consultants) compare Octane to Centane ratings. They measure two
different things that apply to two different types of engines.

Maybe they don't read the literature. The French sometimes refuse to read
English. g

Go to the SAE site and search on some of the terms we've been using. Before
you get to 200 abstracts or so, I assure you that you'll see references to
cetane and octane being opposite measures of almost the same property

As for applying to two different types of engines, that's all gotten fuzzy
with the development of HCCI and related concepts. If you spend some time
looking, you'll see every kind of hybrid you can imagine.


Octane applies to gasoline powering a spark ignition engine. Centane
applies diesel fuel powering a compression ignition engine. You can
interpolate all you want but I can assure you that in an engine lab
they do not use the compression ignition engine to test for octane
rating nor the spark ignition engines to test for centane rating.

Of course not. That's "cetane," by the way.

--
Ed Huntress

clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:48:23 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:04:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:



More to do with the actual fuel composition than the actual octane
rating, wouldn't you agree?

No, they're talking about octane ratings, and you'll find the same
pattern
for gasoline and other high-octane fuels versus diesel fuel, throughout
the
literature. The issue here is the differences in performance relative to
different octane rating systems.


You will admit, will you not, that propane, ethanol, and leaded racing
fuel will have 3 very widely varying burn speeds, very different
flamability ranges, extremely differing autoignition specs, widely
disparate energy densities,just as widely disparate specific gravities
and reid vapour pressures, yet very close to the same octane?

I have no idea. Where's the data?

You want data - THAT I can give you.(Except for burn speed)

snip

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but we've already discussed the
fact that RON and MON octane ratings don't necessarily correlate with
autoignition. The octane value for that is OI, the octane index.

The quote from which this discussion started was one that indicated that
resistance to autoignition correlates with octane rating -- and it
specifically was talking about OI. Here's the introduction from that same
abstract, which I didn't include for the sake of brevity (and also because
we'd already discussed the fact that it was OI, not RON or MON ratings, that
was being discussed):

================================================== ===
"A homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) engine has been run at
different operating conditions with fuels of different RON and MON and
different chemistries. The ignition quality of the fuel at a given operating
conditions is characterized by CA50, the crank angle at which the cumulative
heat released reaches 50% of the maximum value for the cycle. It is found
that CA50 might show no correlation with either RON or MON but correlates
very well with the Octane Index, OI defined as OI \me (1-K)RON + KMON \me
RON - KS, where K is a constant depending on the engine operating condition
and S is the fuel sensitivity, (RON MON). The higher the OI, the more the
resistance to autoignition and the later is the heat release in the HCCI
engine at a given condition."
================================================== ===

Here's a related description:

================================================== ===
(Octane Appetite Studies in Direct Injection Spark Ignition (Disi) Engines -
2005)

"The anti-knock or octane quality of a fuel depends on the fuel composition
as well as on the engine design and operating conditions. The true octane
quality of practical fuels is defined by the Octane Index, OI \me (1-K)RON +
KMON where K is a constant for a given operating condition..."
================================================== ===

snip

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...

Just to slightly sidetrack things, have you seen this Ed?

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html


Yeah, they had one of these on display at my local Honda Powerhouse bike
shop, and the owner spent some time showing it to me. Very interesting.


You've seen it in person? I'm envious........

Here's a good article on fuels and detonation (gasoline based).

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

Pete


--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Being shot out of a cannon is always better
than being squeezed through a tube.

Hunter S. Thompson, (1939 - 2005) Kingdom of Fear

clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
news
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:23:23 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:


Auto ignition is not how a diesel ignites its fuel. A compression
ignition engine compresses air to above the ignition temperature of
the fuel and then injects the fuel into the preheated air causing the
fuel to ignite.

I hate to be argumentive but I worked in the Indonesian government
Petroleum Labs for a couple of years and I didn;t hear any of the
people from the French Petroleum Institute (who were the main
consultants) compare Octane to Centane ratings. They measure two
different things that apply to two different types of engines.

Octane applies to gasoline powering a spark ignition engine. Centane
applies diesel fuel powering a compression ignition engine. You can
interpolate all you want but I can assure you that in an engine lab
they do not use the compression ignition engine to test for octane
rating nor the spark ignition engines to test for centane rating.


Actually, of 8 different fuels rated (including ethanol, methanol, #2
diesel, gasoline, propane, hydrogen,MTBE and CNG, only TWO are rated
for Cetane.

Here are most of the others:

http://www.naftc.wvu.edu/naftc/data/...datatable.html

--
Ed Huntress

"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...

Just to slightly sidetrack things, have you seen this Ed?

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html


Yeah, they had one of these on display at my local Honda Powerhouse bike
shop, and the owner spent some time showing it to me. Very interesting.


You've seen it in person? I'm envious........

Yup. It was on tour. Unfortunately I knew nothing about the engine at the
time, and I got a kind of simplified explanation.


Here's a good article on fuels and detonation (gasoline based).

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

Veddy interesting, and quite a cut above the level of science usually
addressed in popular articles.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message


Here's a good article on fuels and detonation (gasoline based).

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

Veddy interesting, and quite a cut above the level of science usually
addressed in popular articles.

Yeah, Tuluie ain't your ordinary backyard engine builder. He's a
schooled (and published) Astrophysicist, who has gone one to become Head
of R&D with the ING Renault F1 Team.

Pete
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman
she meets, then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again."

-TV listing for "The Wizard of Oz" in the Marin Independent Journal

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message


Here's a good article on fuels and detonation (gasoline based).

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

Veddy interesting, and quite a cut above the level of science usually
addressed in popular articles.

Yeah, Tuluie ain't your ordinary backyard engine builder. He's a
schooled (and published) Astrophysicist, who has gone on to become Head
of R&D with the ING Renault F1 Team.

Pete
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman
she meets, then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again."

-TV listing for "The Wizard of Oz" in the Marin Independent Journal
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"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message


Here's a good article on fuels and detonation (gasoline based).

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

Veddy interesting, and quite a cut above the level of science usually
addressed in popular articles.

Yeah, Tuluie ain't your ordinary backyard engine builder. He's a
schooled (and published) Astrophysicist, who has gone one to become Head
of R&D with the ING Renault F1 Team.

I read the article on two-stroke expansion chambers because I have a
particular family interest. I see that the author repeats the version
usually told, that Walter Kaaden discovered the principle in the 1950s. If I
can ever find the photo, or the guy who has it, there is one of a 35cc
2-stroke model boat engine, built in 1933, that won some championship model
races that year -- with the aid of a tapered expansion-chamber exhaust with
a short reverse cone on the exit end. My uncle designed and built it.

But he never patented it. The same is true of the star-drag revolving-spool
fishing reel, in which (then) Ocean City reels expressed an interest, but
declined to buy it. A year later it appeared on the market and it was the
basis for the Penn Reel drag that's still sold today. I have the prototype
reel itself in that case -- but no patent. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:30:48 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:48:23 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:04:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:



More to do with the actual fuel composition than the actual octane
rating, wouldn't you agree?

No, they're talking about octane ratings, and you'll find the same
pattern
for gasoline and other high-octane fuels versus diesel fuel, throughout
the
literature. The issue here is the differences in performance relative to
different octane rating systems.


You will admit, will you not, that propane, ethanol, and leaded racing
fuel will have 3 very widely varying burn speeds, very different
flamability ranges, extremely differing autoignition specs, widely
disparate energy densities,just as widely disparate specific gravities
and reid vapour pressures, yet very close to the same octane?

I have no idea. Where's the data?

You want data - THAT I can give you.(Except for burn speed)

snip

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but we've already discussed the
fact that RON and MON octane ratings don't necessarily correlate with
autoignition. The octane value for that is OI, the octane index.

The quote from which this discussion started was one that indicated that
resistance to autoignition correlates with octane rating -- and it
specifically was talking about OI. Here's the introduction from that same
abstract, which I didn't include for the sake of brevity (and also because
we'd already discussed the fact that it was OI, not RON or MON ratings, that
was being discussed):


And octane has NOTHING to do with autoignition stage one (which is
lighting the fuel in a CI engine.Otherwise deisel fuel would also have
an octane rating, like gasoline has a cetane rating.
It is only related to stage 2( if I understand the stages correctly)
autoignition in a spark ignition or homogenous mixture engine where
SOME of the fuel autoignites in an explosive manner (detonates)

ANd a HCCI engine is TECHNICALLY not a diesel cycle engine.
================================================= ====
"A homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) engine has been run at
different operating conditions with fuels of different RON and MON and
different chemistries. The ignition quality of the fuel at a given operating
conditions is characterized by CA50, the crank angle at which the cumulative
heat released reaches 50% of the maximum value for the cycle. It is found
that CA50 might show no correlation with either RON or MON but correlates
very well with the Octane Index, OI defined as OI \me (1-K)RON + KMON \me
RON - KS, where K is a constant depending on the engine operating condition
and S is the fuel sensitivity, (RON MON). The higher the OI, the more the
resistance to autoignition and the later is the heat release in the HCCI
engine at a given condition."
================================================= ====

Here's a related description:

================================================= ====
(Octane Appetite Studies in Direct Injection Spark Ignition (Disi) Engines -
2005)

"The anti-knock or octane quality of a fuel depends on the fuel composition
as well as on the engine design and operating conditions. The true octane
quality of practical fuels is defined by the Octane Index, OI \me (1-K)RON +
KMON where K is a constant for a given operating condition..."
================================================= ====

snip

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:48:27 -0400, Pete Snell wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...

Just to slightly sidetrack things, have you seen this Ed?

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html


Yeah, they had one of these on display at my local Honda Powerhouse bike
shop, and the owner spent some time showing it to me. Very interesting.


You've seen it in person? I'm envious........

Here's a good article on fuels and detonation (gasoline based).

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

Pete


Back in the early eighties Toyota had a real nice experimental 2
stroke engine. It was, IIRC, a 2 liter engine. All ceramic, valve
operated 2 stroke with a wet sump crankcase and pressurized bearings,
running a positive displacement supercharger like the old JIMMY
diesel.
They figured the fuel economy and efficiency would have been
significantly better than a 4 stroke, with lower HC and CO emissions.
Only problem was it was to operate somewhere well north of 600 degrees
F and NOX was a severe problem
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:48:27 -0400, Pete Snell wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...

Just to slightly sidetrack things, have you seen this Ed?

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html


Yeah, they had one of these on display at my local Honda Powerhouse bike
shop, and the owner spent some time showing it to me. Very interesting.


You've seen it in person? I'm envious........

Here's a good article on fuels and detonation (gasoline based).

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

Pete


Thank you Pete. This guy agrees with my explanation of detonation
being caused by the dissassociation of hydrocarbons and production of
free radicals in the cyl.

Ed, what say you?
Is this guy out in left field, or do you agree ?
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:59:35 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
news
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:23:23 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:


Auto ignition is not how a diesel ignites its fuel. A compression
ignition engine compresses air to above the ignition temperature of
the fuel and then injects the fuel into the preheated air causing the
fuel to ignite.

I hate to be argumentive but I worked in the Indonesian government
Petroleum Labs for a couple of years and I didn;t hear any of the
people from the French Petroleum Institute (who were the main
consultants) compare Octane to Centane ratings. They measure two
different things that apply to two different types of engines.

Octane applies to gasoline powering a spark ignition engine. Centane
applies diesel fuel powering a compression ignition engine. You can
interpolate all you want but I can assure you that in an engine lab
they do not use the compression ignition engine to test for octane
rating nor the spark ignition engines to test for centane rating.


Actually, of 8 different fuels rated (including ethanol, methanol, #2
diesel, gasoline, propane, hydrogen,MTBE and CNG, only TWO are rated
for Cetane.

Here are most of the others:

http://www.naftc.wvu.edu/naftc/data/...datatable.html


And diesel still has no octane.
An no non-diesel fuel excedes 25% of the cetane requirement for diesel
fuel, with gasoline coming the closest.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
news
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:30:48 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
. ..

And octane has NOTHING to do with autoignition stage one (which is
lighting the fuel in a CI engine.Otherwise deisel fuel would also have
an octane rating, like gasoline has a cetane rating.
It is only related to stage 2( if I understand the stages correctly)
autoignition in a spark ignition or homogenous mixture engine where
SOME of the fuel autoignites in an explosive manner (detonates)

ANd a HCCI engine is TECHNICALLY not a diesel cycle engine.

I think we're getting off into things that we can't sensibly discuss without
easy access to the full research documentation, Clare. This is about as far
as I care to go with it, given the information I can access. Maybe someone
else will want to pick it up.

--
Ed Huntress

clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
news
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:48:27 -0400, Pete Snell wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...

Just to slightly sidetrack things, have you seen this Ed?

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html


Yeah, they had one of these on display at my local Honda Powerhouse bike
shop, and the owner spent some time showing it to me. Very interesting.


You've seen it in person? I'm envious........

Here's a good article on fuels and detonation (gasoline based).

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

Pete


Thank you Pete. This guy agrees with my explanation of detonation
being caused by the dissassociation of hydrocarbons and production of
free radicals in the cyl.

Ed, what say you?
Is this guy out in left field, or do you agree ?

The research I saw says that the different intermediate products of
different fuels produce very different burn characteristics. So the "free
radicals" explanation is a simplification that works for what he's
discussing in this article. It doesn't help much when you're comparing a
variety of fuels, such as the ones in your list.

I see from the abstracts that there is SAE-published research on this very
subject, but I'm not about to spend money for it.

--
Ed Huntress

clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:59:35 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
news
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:23:23 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:


Auto ignition is not how a diesel ignites its fuel. A compression
ignition engine compresses air to above the ignition temperature of
the fuel and then injects the fuel into the preheated air causing the
fuel to ignite.

I hate to be argumentive but I worked in the Indonesian government
Petroleum Labs for a couple of years and I didn;t hear any of the
people from the French Petroleum Institute (who were the main
consultants) compare Octane to Centane ratings. They measure two
different things that apply to two different types of engines.

Octane applies to gasoline powering a spark ignition engine. Centane
applies diesel fuel powering a compression ignition engine. You can
interpolate all you want but I can assure you that in an engine lab
they do not use the compression ignition engine to test for octane
rating nor the spark ignition engines to test for centane rating.


Actually, of 8 different fuels rated (including ethanol, methanol, #2
diesel, gasoline, propane, hydrogen,MTBE and CNG, only TWO are rated
for Cetane.

Here are most of the others:

http://www.naftc.wvu.edu/naftc/data/...datatable.html


And diesel still has no octane.

There is a study I came across that quotes 15 - 25 for the octane range of
diesel #2. I couldn't find enough on it to post it here, because I rarely
quote things that don't have at least two independent sources.

But what does it matter? The issue with diesel is its cetane rating. If it
became useful to measure its octane rating, it would be a simple enough
thing to do: just run it in the designated test engines and see how it
measures up. That is, if you can light it with a spark at all, at those low
compression ratios.

Cetane is much more interesting at the moment because of all of the research
on various types of compression-ignition engines.

An no non-diesel fuel excedes 25% of the cetane requirement for diesel
fuel, with gasoline coming the closest.

Yes, and? What issue are you addressing here?

There are numerous cetane enhancers being used in diesel and other
compression-ignition research, including several that bring LNG and propane
up into the 50 cetane range. But I see nothing in this discussion that makes
it relevant.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:


I read the article on two-stroke expansion chambers because I have a
particular family interest. I see that the author repeats the version
usually told, that Walter Kaaden discovered the principle in the 1950s. If I
can ever find the photo, or the guy who has it, there is one of a 35cc
2-stroke model boat engine, built in 1933, that won some championship model
races that year -- with the aid of a tapered expansion-chamber exhaust with
a short reverse cone on the exit end. My uncle designed and built it.

Yeah, that version is repeated so often it must be true by now..;-)

My understanding is that Kaaden was the guy developed an empirical
model that worked, and allowed the development of the modern chamber.
There are lots of pre-Kaaden examples, some with no return cone (i.e.
megaphone) But Kaaden was the guy who built them to suit the engine
characteristics and understood how the wave action worked. Just look at
the WW2 buzzbombs (pulsejet) for an example of a expansion chamber used
AS an engine. This well preceded Kaaden's chambers.


But he never patented it. The same is true of the star-drag revolving-spool
fishing reel, in which (then) Ocean City reels expressed an interest, but
declined to buy it. A year later it appeared on the market and it was the
basis for the Penn Reel drag that's still sold today. I have the prototype
reel itself in that case -- but no patent. g

Ahhh, missed opportunities. Hopefully he got his enjoyment in the
process of building it.

As for Octane and Cetane and everything in between. At a certain
point comparisons between different fuels and processes are nearly
meaningless. It's best to bear in mind that these numbers are just aids
to understanding parts of a complex process, nothing more. Comparing
diesel, gasoline, propane, methanol, J fuels, coal slurry, et al might
be fun, but unless you have a specific context, it's hard to hold it all
together in a meaningful way.

Pete
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Being shot out of a cannon is always better
than being squeezed through a tube.

Hunter S. Thompson, (1939 - 2005) Kingdom of Fear
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"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:


I read the article on two-stroke expansion chambers because I have a
particular family interest. I see that the author repeats the version
usually told, that Walter Kaaden discovered the principle in the 1950s.
If I can ever find the photo, or the guy who has it, there is one of a
35cc 2-stroke model boat engine, built in 1933, that won some
championship model races that year -- with the aid of a tapered
expansion-chamber exhaust with a short reverse cone on the exit end. My
uncle designed and built it.

Yeah, that version is repeated so often it must be true by now..;-)

My understanding is that Kaaden was the guy developed an empirical model
that worked, and allowed the development of the modern chamber. There are
lots of pre-Kaaden examples, some with no return cone (i.e. megaphone) But
Kaaden was the guy who built them to suit the engine characteristics and
understood how the wave action worked. Just look at the WW2 buzzbombs
(pulsejet) for an example of a expansion chamber used AS an engine. This
well preceded Kaaden's chambers.

No doubt Kaaden deserves credit for doing it in a scientific way. I only
discussed it a couple of times with my uncle, and my recollection is that it
was all trial-and-error at that time. Open megaphones were already in
limited use; the reverse cone on the end probably resulted from random
fooling around.



But he never patented it. The same is true of the star-drag
revolving-spool fishing reel, in which (then) Ocean City reels expressed
an interest, but declined to buy it. A year later it appeared on the
market and it was the basis for the Penn Reel drag that's still sold
today. I have the prototype reel itself in that case -- but no patent.
g

Ahhh, missed opportunities. Hopefully he got his enjoyment in the
process of building it.

And using it. He was still using the reel in the '50s. I used it a couple of
times myself. It's quite a piece of work, all German silver and copper.

This was a guy who made everything himself. He built a full-blown fighting
chair for fighting bluefins, right down to making the molds for
vacuum-forming the PVC arm rest covers, and welded all the stainless parts
together. He was a well-known...uh, unusual character. g And he was the
head of the NJ Industrial Arts Teacher's Association. If he were alive
today, he'd be a source of endless fascination on this NG.


As for Octane and Cetane and everything in between. At a certain point
comparisons between different fuels and processes are nearly meaningless.
It's best to bear in mind that these numbers are just aids to
understanding parts of a complex process, nothing more. Comparing diesel,
gasoline, propane, methanol, J fuels, coal slurry, et al might be fun, but
unless you have a specific context, it's hard to hold it all together in a
meaningful way.

Pete

No doubt. But the interesting thing now is that the research on HCCI and
related "hybrid" engines has produced a flurry of investigations into mixed
fuels, additives for boosting cetane, and so on. If you haven't done so
already you'd probably enjoy seeing the vast research being reported by SAE.
Just go to their site...

http://automobile.sae.org/

....and enter a search term in the box in the upper right of the page.
"Cetane HCCI," without the quotes, produces 8138 hits, and you'll see fuels
you probably hadn't thought of listed right in the headlines.

--
Ed Huntress

Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Sorry about the OT, but, I do contribute once in a while and this is such a
knowledgeable group!

Many decades ago (1950's) when people talked about diesel engines (lot of
this talk was from 'old country' poor Europeans), they would always tout the
fact that they (the engines) would run on anything. The list, if I remember
correctly included diesel, gas, lighter fluid, heating oil, liquefied lard,
charcoal lighter, veggie oil etc., etc., etc.

The Army M35A2 'deuce and a half' would run
on jet fuel, kerosene, stove oil, 10 weight
motor oil and even on gasoline for a little
while.

If any of the above is true, why don't people, today, put gasoline into
their diesel engines, considering the higher cost of diesel fuel?

Because it doesn't lube the injector pump
like diesel. That's why the deuce could
only run on gasoline for a short time.

Just want to know what would happened if you did use gasoline.
BTW, my only diesel is my small Kubota tractor.

You'd wear out the injector pump.

Thanks for replies.

Ivan Vegvary

Ed Huntress wrote:


http://automobile.sae.org/

...and enter a search term in the box in the upper right of the page.
"Cetane HCCI," without the quotes, produces 8138 hits, and you'll see fuels
you probably hadn't thought of listed right in the headlines.

Damn you Ed. :-) How am I supposed to get any work done now?

Pete


--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell is other people.

Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)

Ed Huntress wrote:


http://automobile.sae.org/

...and enter a search term in the box in the upper right of the page.
"Cetane HCCI," without the quotes, produces 8138 hits, and you'll see fuels
you probably hadn't thought of listed right in the headlines.

Damn you Ed. :-) How am I supposed to get any work done now?

I think this one made the rounds before, but it's worth another look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rIPmjqPeSY&feature=related


Pete


--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell is other people.

Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)

"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:


http://automobile.sae.org/

...and enter a search term in the box in the upper right of the page.
"Cetane HCCI," without the quotes, produces 8138 hits, and you'll see
fuels you probably hadn't thought of listed right in the headlines.

Damn you Ed. :-) How am I supposed to get any work done now?

Pete

Why should you get off easier than I do? d8-)

I used to get a lot of leads and ideas for metalworking articles by
discussing things on this NG. Now I get mostly headaches. Some days it's
hell getting in my work hours, but I sure have a lot of background research
lying around here...

--
Ed Huntress

"Pete Snell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:


http://automobile.sae.org/

...and enter a search term in the box in the upper right of the page.
"Cetane HCCI," without the quotes, produces 8138 hits, and you'll see
fuels you probably hadn't thought of listed right in the headlines.

Damn you Ed. :-) How am I supposed to get any work done now?

I think this one made the rounds before, but it's worth another look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rIPmjqPeSY&feature=related

Oh, very cool. Research engineers and scientists have such cool toys these
days.

--
Ed Huntress

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "Roger Shoaf"
wrote on Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:43:21 -0700 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :

"ED" wrote in message
news
Brazil has no petrolium resources and relied on sugar cane
to produce ethenol. I believe they were/are 100%
independent from oil imports..

We should be doing more in this country--not with corn
but with sugar beets....and oil seeds..


Be careful what you wish for. On all bio fuels I have seen touted so far,
it seems to be a proposition where it takes more energy put in to the
production of the fuel than you get out of the fuel when you use it.

Think for a moment about how many gallons of oil you get per acre of farm
land, the cost of pumping water to irrigate the crop and the energy required
to run the tractors, truck and process the produce.

Brazil has a whole lot of bio-mass to ferment into alcohol, and they have
very little demand.

That Brazilian demand for bio-alcohol, and the profits to be made,
is part of what fueled the land rush into the Amazon. "Ooopsie"

Conversely, in the US we are burning a whole lot of natural gas to generate
electricity. Motor vehicles can use natural gas with very little
modification, yet few use this fuel because of the price and availability.

If we were to build some more nuclear power plants, we could free up the
supply of natural gas, and get cheaper and cleaner electricity. Political
pressures from scare mongers have thwarted this however. As a result of
this stupidity, we generate about half of our electricity by burning coal
and therefore dump thousands of tons of radioactive pollution into the
atmosphere from burning the coal.

Cheap electricity would also allow for cheap hydrogen to be produced.
Hydrogen could also be used as a motor fuel with zero smog, or carbon
emissions.
But lots of Green House Gas - H2O is one of the biggies.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!