Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old April 13th 08, 05:14 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,529
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 3:31 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:11:40 -0500, nick hull wrote:
In article ,
"Jon Danniken" wrote:


"cavelamb himself" wrote:
I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the
situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...


http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm


NIce try, but that is an old image. Actually saw it on a local car
earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.
\
The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.


Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/


It's the US government fighting a war without raising taxes to pay for
it, combined with brainless bankers in an unregulated system giving
huge amounts of money to people with no means of paying it back, and
collecting huge bonuses for "pulling the chain" on the american, and
world, financial system.

** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


If you wondered how fragile "The System" is, try reading this....

It can happen to any company or anyone.

TMT

Credit card trouble pushed Frontier over By JOHN WILEN, AP Business
Writer
Fri Apr 11, 7:03 PM ET


It's easy to misinterpret the airline situation. The simple fact is that
there were too many airlines to begin with. The credit-card situation they
face actually is the result of a consumer *protection*, not a vulnerability.

--
Ed Huntress



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Old April 13th 08, 05:15 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 2,152
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 02:53:12 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 13, 6:21 pm, "Jeff R." wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in .com...



wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?


I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.


TMT


Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon,


And your dollar is actually worth something.


...and our gallon is bigger.

--
Jeff R.
(but we don't like to brag)


Dunno - I know the American Gallon is "different" - I used 3.78 litres
as an equivalent. Our dollar is worth 90c American - its not getting
worth more, yours is going down against the rest of the world. This is
good for me, I can afford to buy Chinese tools cheaper from the states
than I can here...(go figure THAT one!) - now, if your postage prices
were not so outrageous....(bloody liberals again...)

Andrew VK3BFA.

========
Problem is that you are comparing pump price to pump price. I
don't know the situation "down under," but the actual price of
gasoline and diesel is now around 10$US per gallon when the oil
company tax credits, tax exemptions, tax increment financing
districts, free oil from under federal land, stolen oil [pumped
but not paid for] from Indian reservations, etc.. One
particularly glaring example of this was when Saudi Arabia
decided to impose higher royalties on exported oil. The oil
companies got the Saudis to call it a tax, which by US/SAUDI
treaty could be deducted from the oil company US taxes.

It goes even higher when the lost tax revenues from transfer
pricing are included, which must be made up by either borrowing
or increased individual taxes.

The price climbs even more when the war costs are included, not
only for combat but the damage done to the trust and cooperation
of the people of the mid-east for the United States.

If we expect the "free market" to work, accurate and timely
information must be available to the consumers. Charging the
actual 10 or 12 $US per gallon at the pump while eliminating the
oil company tax dodges and "cost externalization", would indeed
cause massive economic dislocation in the short run, but would
result in rational lifestyle decisions about alternative energy,
high mileage vehicles [i.e. no more Hummers], no more urban
sprawl w/2 to 3 hour commutes, far few giant box stores, etc.

This has no chance of occurring until total "melt down" occurs.
The Romans got "bread and circuses," the US gets gasoline and
professional sports.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
  #73   Report Post  
Old April 13th 08, 07:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 2,502
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:33:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

nick hull wrote:


The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/



Well, that was easier than I expected.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm



I wonder about the occurance that generated that photo.
Kudos to Pres. Bush

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
  #74   Report Post  
Old April 13th 08, 07:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 2,502
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:56:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT


Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon, and climbing. Predicted to be $5.67 by
end of next week - something to do with the price of crude in
Singapore going up.) Must be those pesky liberals again, making life
difficult for you guys...

(Gunner will respond with "proof" that this is so....)

Andrew VK3BFA.



Lefties will of course blame this on Bush.

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
  #75   Report Post  
Old April 13th 08, 07:31 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 733
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:33:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:


nick hull wrote:


The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/



Well, that was easier than I expected.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm




I wonder about the occurance that generated that photo.
Kudos to Pres. Bush

Gunner



Me too.
I'm guessing it HAD to be the press.



  #76   Report Post  
Old April 13th 08, 07:33 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 2,502
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:12:20 GMT, Eregon wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:1527e5cd-f350-40f7-
:

Expensive fuel causes everything to become more expensive.


You can thank the various governments (state & federal) for keeping it as
low as it has been for the past half-century. After all, they COULD have
imposed the high taxes that are common in Europe.

I suspect we are at the beginning of a extended period of
hyperinflation.

A repeat of the late 70's?


Closer to the early '80s when the question "How do the folks in Detroit get
15 adults into a VW Beetle?" was answered by "Easy - tell them it's headed
to Texas!"


Wages definitely are not rising.


Wages in many fields/areas were already hyperinflated.

This is/was the cause of much of the "Outsourcing" and the "Offshore
Relocation" mania of the last 2 decades that saw Union jobs replaced by
non-Union jobs.

When burger-flippers expect $10+ /hr. to ask "Do you want fries with
that?" you should already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Illegal Immigrants earn enough money to buy mid-range homes you should
already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Welfare pays better than working you should already know that the
economy is in a World of Hurt.

When the Democrat Party was bought by the Peoples' Republic of China over a
decade ago you should expected that the economy would be in a World of Hurt
as the US Standard of Living was brought down to PRC levels.



Well said

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
  #77   Report Post  
Old April 14th 08, 12:26 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 313
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:12:20 GMT, Eregon wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:1527e5cd-f350-40f7-
:

Expensive fuel causes everything to become more expensive.


You can thank the various governments (state & federal) for keeping it as
low as it has been for the past half-century. After all, they COULD have
imposed the high taxes that are common in Europe.

I suspect we are at the beginning of a extended period of
hyperinflation.

A repeat of the late 70's?


Closer to the early '80s when the question "How do the folks in Detroit get
15 adults into a VW Beetle?" was answered by "Easy - tell them it's headed
to Texas!"


Wages definitely are not rising.


Wages in many fields/areas were already hyperinflated.

This is/was the cause of much of the "Outsourcing" and the "Offshore
Relocation" mania of the last 2 decades that saw Union jobs replaced by
non-Union jobs.

When burger-flippers expect $10+ /hr. to ask "Do you want fries with
that?" you should already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Illegal Immigrants earn enough money to buy mid-range homes you should
already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Welfare pays better than working you should already know that the
economy is in a World of Hurt.

When the Democrat Party was bought by the Peoples' Republic of China over a
decade ago you should expected that the economy would be in a World of Hurt
as the US Standard of Living was brought down to PRC levels.


And when CEOs make billions for loosing 10s of billions of dollars you
KNOW the economy is in a HUGE world of hope.
When CEOs start to settle for a reasonable level of pay companies can
afford to manufacture things here again, and workers can work for an
"honest" wage, and not see the extreme difference between what they
earn PRODUCING and what CEOs earn screwing things up.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
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Old April 14th 08, 01:04 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 200
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Apr 14, 4:29 am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:56:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...


Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?


I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.


TMT


Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon, and climbing. Predicted to be $5.67 by
end of next week - something to do with the price of crude in
Singapore going up.) Must be those pesky liberals again, making life
difficult for you guys...


(Gunner will respond with "proof" that this is so....)


Andrew VK3BFA.


Lefties will of course blame this on Bush.

Gunner


That would be far too simplistic Gunner - comforting, yes, but
accurate - no. He is just one silly person , the nominal head of a
whole system that has the planet drowning in its own garbage.
Replacing Mr Bush with "someone else" would make no difference.

But if you feel comfortable blaming left or right, thats fine -
nothing said here can change your mind in any way beyond reinforcing
lifelong beliefs.

Interestingly enough, the younger people are increasingly blaming our
generation for the mess the world is in. They don't get bogged down in
dinosaur politics - its irrelevant to them - they just damn us all! -
as long as we can find a convenient left/right scapegoat to absolve us
from actually taking any real responsibility at a personal level, they
may well be right.

Andrew VK3bFA.
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Old April 14th 08, 03:33 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 5,154
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:32:38 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
Spehro Pefhany quickly quoth:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:33:50 -0700, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:49:13 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:36:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


What do you think about taking oil/gas under the public utility
umbrella? I like the idea but haven't quite thought it through yet.

Public utility? What dat?
Hydro used to be public in Ontario. Ain't no more.
Natural gas used to be public utility in many cities. Only a few still
hanging on.
Even our highways are going into private hands - along with airports,
etc etc.


How is that working out for y'all?


All the private sector competition is resulting in higher prices, more
user fees, and taxes only increasing slowly ('till they have spent all
the proceeds from selling off publically owned assets, of course)


Since when does competition increase prices?!?

--
Save the whales! Trade them for valuable prizes.
  #80   Report Post  
Old April 14th 08, 03:37 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,154
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:56:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:33:50 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:49:13 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:


Even our highways are going into private hands - along with airports,
etc etc.


How is that working out for y'all?

Not well.
Deregulated electricity and gas gets all the swindlers into high
gear.
The
privatized highways (electronic toll) are billing vehicles that have
never been on them, and if your tolls are unpaid you can't get your
tags renewed. If you have a transponder the rates are reasonable. If
you don't you get hit with a no-transponder fee that makes occaisional
use expensive.


That sucks, bigtime.


The government isn't putting enough of our fuel taxes back into road
infrastructure maintenance and repairs.


Ditto here. I was on Pennsyltucky's tollways in '98 and they're even
worse, with much higher tolls.


At least they had enough brains not to allow our aerospace expertise
(developed at taxpayers expense) to be given away to the americans.
Second time in 50 years we stood to loose it all under a conservative
government - this time they had the balls to say NO to the USA. Canada
and the world lost the AVRO ARROW in 1958, and with that loss , the
vast majority of Canada's not inconsequential aerospace expertise.

All because the USA could not allow Canada to be or be seen as having
something better than the US.

Now the USA wanted RadarSat and full controll over the CanadArm and
it's new little brother space manipulator.


Well, good for them.


We will not be held to the role of "Hewers of wood and haulers of
water"

Not this time, anyway.


Bbbbut, you're all lumberjacks (and you're OK), aren't you?

--
Save the whales! Trade them for valuable prizes.


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