Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #181   Report Post  
Old April 22nd 08, 05:25 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2008
Posts: 14
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Apr 22, 1:48 am, "Ed Huntress"

I will repeat...

We are all products of some system or other
but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
to escape the zombification process and become
real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
the process is accelerated.

In addition I will offer the growing paroxysms of school violence,
which has accelerated since Columbine, as proof that the young
students will no longer suffer the zombification and strictures which
are forced upon them but will revolt, even to the death against it.

No, it was not video games, not arguments with the sports team members
nor our violent culture and media that had anything to do with it...
those things have been around for a long time. But the Internet and
the growing realization among young people that their future has been
mortgaged away, literally as well as figuratively speaking, inevitably
leads to the explosions of violence which have occured with increasing
frequency.

Look to the system itself, NOT THE STUDENTS, for the causes.

Citizen Jimserac

  #182   Report Post  
Old April 22nd 08, 06:31 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,529
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking


"Citizen Jimserac" wrote in message
...
On Apr 22, 1:48 am, "Ed Huntress"

I will repeat...

We are all products of some system or other
but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
to escape the zombification process and become
real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
the process is accelerated.


Yes, you said that. g That's quite a sweeping claim, predicated on the
idea that most school turns most people into "zombies" who can't think. That
isn't my experience.

Before I graduated from high school I attended 12 different schools in six
different states, two private and 10 public; I also attended one university
in the US and one in Europe, which had students from all over the world.
There were good ones and bad ones in that mix, to be sure, but I knew both
excellent and awful students who had been educated in a wide variety of
school types and systems.

The difference, as Larry also suggested here, seemed to be the students, not
the systems. Some were fortunate to have supportive families and/or a couple
or three exceptional teachers. That's what I experienced, as well. The worst
schools I attended produced a lower percentage of good students who could
think, who were creative and who were self-motivated by the time they were
upperclassmen in high school. The best schools produced more of them. But
those good schools also tended to be located in communities where education
was held in high esteem and there was little cynicism about school among the
students. The most outstanding example of that was the high school from
which I graduated: Princeton High School, a public school in a small town of
14,000 but located in the midst of Princeton University, Westminster Choir
College, The Princeton Theological Seminary, the Institute for Advanced
Study, and several top-rated prep schools, where more than a few of the
students were sons and daughters of university professors and where it was
cool to be smart and to get good grades. The school system was conventional;
the teachers were well above average; but, most importantly, the culture of
the students themselves was one that encouraged and motivated other
students.

That made all the difference. The opportunities to learn were there and,
while they were above average, they were based on the same state
requirements, the same institutional model, the same teaching credential
requirements, the same NEA, and the same salaries being paid throughout the
system.

Students -- or what they bring with them to school -- are the key. Families
are key to the students. Families collectively produce a community's culture
and attitudes. And attitudes in the general community shape the attitudes of
the students.


In addition I will offer the growing paroxysms of school violence,
which has accelerated since Columbine, as proof that the young
students will no longer suffer the zombification and strictures which
are forced upon them but will revolt, even to the death against it.


Columbine is proof that there are some very screwed up people attending our
schools, and that cultural aspects of the school environment itself can
provoke them to murderous behavior. How much the school, as an institution,
contributed to that is hard to say. In any case, the Columbine killers seem
to fit the profile you favor: misfits and loners who escaped being
socialized by the schools. They escaped it forever.


No, it was not video games, not arguments with the sports team members
nor our violent culture and media that had anything to do with it...
those things have been around for a long time. But the Internet and
the growing realization among young people that their future has been
mortgaged away, literally as well as figuratively speaking, inevitably
leads to the explosions of violence which have occured with increasing
frequency.

Look to the system itself, NOT THE STUDENTS, for the causes.

Citizen Jimserac


It seems likely that you had an unhappy experience in school. It also seems
likely that you've force-fit the events into your theory, finding "proof" of
what you're saying by presuming causative relationships where none probably
exist.

--
Ed Huntress


  #184   Report Post  
Old April 22nd 08, 11:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2008
Posts: 14
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Apr 22, 1:31 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"CitizenJimserac" wrote in message

...

On Apr 22, 1:48 am, "Ed Huntress"


I will repeat...


We are all products of some system or other
but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
to escape the zombification process and become
real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
the process is accelerated.


Yes, you said that. g That's quite a sweeping claim, predicated on the
idea that most school turns most people into "zombies" who can't think. That
isn't my experience.

Before I graduated from high school I attended 12 different schools in six
different states, two private and 10 public; I also attended one university
in the US and one in Europe, which had students from all over the world.
There were good ones and bad ones in that mix, to be sure, but I knew both
excellent and awful students who had been educated in a wide variety of
school types and systems.

The difference, as Larry also suggested here, seemed to be the students, not
the systems. Some were fortunate to have supportive families and/or a couple
or three exceptional teachers. That's what I experienced, as well. The worst
schools I attended produced a lower percentage of good students who could
think, who were creative and who were self-motivated by the time they were
upperclassmen in high school. The best schools produced more of them. But
those good schools also tended to be located in communities where education
was held in high esteem and there was little cynicism about school among the
students. The most outstanding example of that was the high school from
which I graduated: Princeton High School, a public school in a small town of
14,000 but located in the midst of Princeton University, Westminster Choir
College, The Princeton Theological Seminary, the Institute for Advanced
Study, and several top-rated prep schools, where more than a few of the
students were sons and daughters of university professors and where it was
cool to be smart and to get good grades. The school system was conventional;
the teachers were well above average; but, most importantly, the culture of
the students themselves was one that encouraged and motivated other
students.

That made all the difference. The opportunities to learn were there and,
while they were above average, they were based on the same state
requirements, the same institutional model, the same teaching credential
requirements, the same NEA, and the same salaries being paid throughout the
system.

Students -- or what they bring with them to school -- are the key. Families
are key to the students. Families collectively produce a community's culture
and attitudes. And attitudes in the general community shape the attitudes of
the students.



In addition I will offer the growing paroxysms of school violence,
which has accelerated since Columbine, as proof that the young
students will no longer suffer the zombification and strictures which
are forced upon them but will revolt, even to the death against it.


Columbine is proof that there are some very screwed up people attending our
schools, and that cultural aspects of the school environment itself can
provoke them to murderous behavior. How much the school, as an institution,
contributed to that is hard to say. In any case, the Columbine killers seem
to fit the profile you favor: misfits and loners who escaped being
socialized by the schools. They escaped it forever.



No, it was not video games, not arguments with the sports team members
nor our violent culture and media that had anything to do with it...
those things have been around for a long time. But the Internet and
the growing realization among young people that their future has been
mortgaged away, literally as well as figuratively speaking, inevitably
leads to the explosions of violence which have occured with increasing
frequency.


Look to the system itself, NOT THE STUDENTS, for the causes.


CitizenJimserac


It seems likely that you had an unhappy experience in school. It also seems
likely that you've force-fit the events into your theory, finding "proof" of
what you're saying by presuming causative relationships where none probably
exist.

--
Ed Huntress


Never mind me, I'm just one from many. My experiences are hardly
definitive and you've attended far more schools at all levels than
I ever did. But that very fact probably saved you from its
full effect. Besides, teachers are for the most part good
and well intentioned and they resent the system as much
as everyone else. Read Gatto's book, it's all there - the smuggled
in "guidelines" and "standards" about what our students
would or would not learn, could or could not learn,
should or should not learn and the role of "socialization"
(remember what was then called "social studies").

I took some education courses at Rhode Island College
in the late 1960's and I recall my astonishment at the
Maoist like intensity with which the views of Jean Jaques Rousseau,
Dewey and Horace Mann were propounded as if they were
the be all and end all of educational philosophies.

Citizen Jimserac
  #185   Report Post  
Old April 23rd 08, 12:14 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,529
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

"Citizen Jimserac" wrote in message
...

snip

Never mind me, I'm just one from many. My experiences are hardly
definitive and you've attended far more schools at all levels than
I ever did. But that very fact probably saved you from its
full effect. Besides, teachers are for the most part good
and well intentioned and they resent the system as much
as everyone else. Read Gatto's book, it's all there - the smuggled
in "guidelines" and "standards" about what our students
would or would not learn, could or could not learn,
should or should not learn and the role of "socialization"
(remember what was then called "social studies").


I will put the book on my list and try to get to it. I've been catching up
lately. d8-)


I took some education courses at Rhode Island College
in the late 1960's and I recall my astonishment at the
Maoist like intensity with which the views of Jean Jaques Rousseau,
Dewey and Horace Mann were propounded as if they were
the be all and end all of educational philosophies.

Citizen Jimserac


The late '60s was a very strange time. I was in college then, too, and I can
imagine there were plenty of rabid ideologues in teacher's education, as
there were in many other fields. But those three were important thinkers who
had a powerful effect upon education, and, to some extent, upon politics. As
historical figures and original thinkers they were all important; you can't
teach the history of education, or understand how we got where we are,
without a serious study of their lives and ideas. I'd need to know the
context in which they were being taught to appreciate your judgment in this
case.

When education was extended to the general population, as someone else
commented in this thread, the question arose about what they were to be
educated *for*. Until that time education was for the elite, the future
leaders in government, business, religion, the professions, and so on. It
wasn't until our lifetimes that the general socialization objective came
under scrutiny.

So, here we are in 2008. What would you have kids learn today? What is it
that you think the schools are failing to teach? And what, specifically,
would you remove from the current curriculum?

--
Ed Huntress




  #186   Report Post  
Old April 23rd 08, 02:24 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jan 2008
Posts: 658
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Hawke" wrote in message
...

On Apr 17, 10:18 am, Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:09:54 -0700 (PDT),

wrote:

The young generally didnt give a **** about anything other

than
sound
bytes with zip data backing those sound bytes up.

Meism and Nowism along with Cliche politics is more their

forte.

Gunner

Well, yes - agree. They have largely given up, they have seen
their
elders engage in endless vituperative debate, and nothing

happens
except things get worse..why should they give a rats arse about
the
dinosaurs, thrashing around, making lots of noise, but basically
doing
nothing except blaming "someone else"....so, can opening

themselves,
listening to sound bites, me too isms - desperately hoping,
without
any real conviction, that someone will offer hope and

inspiration,
not
just more lies and broken promises.........

$4 gas is the least of our problems.....

Given up? The little skulls filled with mush never started. They

were
educated to be leftards..which took too much effort so they have
simply become semimoble couch potatos who bow to the latest

fashion
trends which make them all look the same, with little incentive

to
do
anything other than ****, get drunk and have a ready supply of
ringtones to download.

Gunner

And here we see a rare agreement between my views and Gunner's.
BOTH liberals and the right were
involved in the deceptive "re-engineering"
of our educational system over a period of
decades starting over 100 years ago.

Real education, it was decided,
was for the elite classes and
what was needed was a system
of "socialization" and indoctrination
to produce happy non-thinking
obedient worker drones
and cannon fodder for the military.

The logical problem with this kind of claim is that the people

making
it,
including Gunner and, perhaps, you, are all products of this
"indoctrinating
educational system." Presumably you then are either a happy

non-thinking
obedient worker drone, or cannon fodder.

It's clear that most people are aware of what the problems are;
complaints
about education are nearly universal, so it's safe to say that

nearly
everyone else recognizes the same things that you do. Maybe

education
hasn't
hurt them none; they can read the writing on the wall. Somehow,
they've
escaped the grand conspiracy to turn them into mindless drones.

--
Ed Huntress

"Spare yourself the anxiety of thinking of this
school thing as a conspiracy, even though the
project is indeed riddled with petty conspirators.
It was and is a fully rational transaction in which
all of us play a part. We trade the liberty of our
kids and our free will for a secure social order
and a very prosperous economy. It's a bargain
in which most of us agree to become as children
ourselves, under the same tutelage which holds
the young, in exchange for food, entertainment,
and safety. The difficulty is that the contract fixes
the goal of human life so low that students go
mad trying to escape it."
Quoted from "The Underground History of American Education"
by John Taylor Gatto.

Gatto wrote an article for _Harper's_ a few years ago, which supposedly
summarized his argument. I remember thinking at the time that it

sounded
like elaborated and generalized grumbling; the Prussian connection was
evidence of nothing much, IMO, as education has always been a kind of
socialization, and the Prussian model just happened to be the one that
was
widely admired at the time American public education was becoming
generalized.

The trouble with Gatto's complaint, as well as most complaints about
education, is that the complaints all tend to sound the same, but the
solutions are all contradictory. The complaints are that we know too

little,
that we think too little, or that we're unable to learn anything except

what
we're spoon-fed. The solutions are that we spend too little time in

school;
we spend too much time in school (Gatto's position). School is too
permissive; school is too authoritarian. We spend too much time

teaching
by
rote; we don't require kids to commit to memory the foundations of
western
thought.

And on, and on, and on. No two critics see the problem in the same way,

and
few offer remedies that aren't contradicting the *last* remedy that

someone
published.

All they have in common is that they don't like what's going on. They

all
seem to have a utopian vision of what education should be, but their

utopias
contradict each other.

It makes one skeptical about the whole enterprise.


We are all prodcuts of some system or other
but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
to escape the zombification process and become
real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
the process is accelerated.

Citizen Jimserac

That sounds like a retread of most complaints about education we've

been
hearing for 50 years or more. Now it's the Internet. Good luck.

--
Ed Huntress



I think the complainers have forgotten what we had before the adoption

of
universal public education. It used to be that everyone was ignorant and
illiterate except for a tiny minority of elites that were able to pay

for
a
private education or tutoring. When it was decided that everyone would
benefit from universal education some kind of system where all children
were
to be "educated" had to be chosen. For many years the system we had was
the
envy of the world and was unquestionably the best system invented to
educate
the children of an entire nation. Now it's charged with doing the same

job
for a country of 300 million with a huge number of children of different
countries speaking different languages as well an underclass and a huge
income disparity to deal with. All in all it's still doing a rather
remarkable job. In addition, if you look at what the statistics are when
you
take out blacks and Hispanics you find that the system is excellent. An
objective view shows that the minorities throw the stats way out of

whack
by
pulling down the averages for the whole system. What's ironic is that

the
minorities take the least advantage of our free system and by all

accounts
they would benefit the most from it. What's that saying about advice

most
needed is advice least heeded? Those who need it the most use it the
least.
No wonder the system appears broken. I think it's not the system that's
flawed but the children who are in it.

Hawke


Without checking the numbers and some of the facts, I'd say that sounds
about right on the surface. Asian-Americans seem to do very well indeed

with
our educational system. It must be good for some people...maybe the ones

who
have family support and motivation.



I think you hit on it exactly. The two keys are self motivation and family
support. Anyone with a modicum of either of those attributes is going to do
well in our system. Sadly, only a minority of people have those things in a
sufficient supply.

The best thing we can do for the people of this country is to provide a good
educational system for each new generation. I once heard someone say that we
can't guarantee that everyone will have a good home but we can guarantee
everyone will have a good school. If we were really serious about doing that
we'd solve a lot of the problems. One place to start is to pay for public
education out of the general fund and not have it paid locally the way it is
now. Wealthy areas have great schools. Poor areas have schools that suck. If
we provided the money to all schools equally and gave enough to ensure they
all were top notch I think we would see a big improvement in our schools.
Despite what some say money does do a lot to making one school better than
the others, like just about anything else in life.


Hawke


  #187   Report Post  
Old April 23rd 08, 03:16 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,502
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:29:07 -0700 (PDT), Citizen Jimserac
wrote:

On Apr 22, 1:31 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"CitizenJimserac" wrote in message

...

On Apr 22, 1:48 am, "Ed Huntress"


I will repeat...


We are all products of some system or other
but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
to escape the zombification process and become
real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
the process is accelerated.


Yes, you said that. g That's quite a sweeping claim, predicated on the
idea that most school turns most people into "zombies" who can't think. That
isn't my experience.

Before I graduated from high school I attended 12 different schools in six
different states, two private and 10 public; I also attended one university
in the US and one in Europe, which had students from all over the world.
There were good ones and bad ones in that mix, to be sure, but I knew both
excellent and awful students who had been educated in a wide variety of
school types and systems.

The difference, as Larry also suggested here, seemed to be the students, not
the systems. Some were fortunate to have supportive families and/or a couple
or three exceptional teachers. That's what I experienced, as well. The worst
schools I attended produced a lower percentage of good students who could
think, who were creative and who were self-motivated by the time they were
upperclassmen in high school. The best schools produced more of them. But
those good schools also tended to be located in communities where education
was held in high esteem and there was little cynicism about school among the
students. The most outstanding example of that was the high school from
which I graduated: Princeton High School, a public school in a small town of
14,000 but located in the midst of Princeton University, Westminster Choir
College, The Princeton Theological Seminary, the Institute for Advanced
Study, and several top-rated prep schools, where more than a few of the
students were sons and daughters of university professors and where it was
cool to be smart and to get good grades. The school system was conventional;
the teachers were well above average; but, most importantly, the culture of
the students themselves was one that encouraged and motivated other
students.

That made all the difference. The opportunities to learn were there and,
while they were above average, they were based on the same state
requirements, the same institutional model, the same teaching credential
requirements, the same NEA, and the same salaries being paid throughout the
system.

Students -- or what they bring with them to school -- are the key. Families
are key to the students. Families collectively produce a community's culture
and attitudes. And attitudes in the general community shape the attitudes of
the students.



In addition I will offer the growing paroxysms of school violence,
which has accelerated since Columbine, as proof that the young
students will no longer suffer the zombification and strictures which
are forced upon them but will revolt, even to the death against it.


Columbine is proof that there are some very screwed up people attending our
schools, and that cultural aspects of the school environment itself can
provoke them to murderous behavior. How much the school, as an institution,
contributed to that is hard to say. In any case, the Columbine killers seem
to fit the profile you favor: misfits and loners who escaped being
socialized by the schools. They escaped it forever.



No, it was not video games, not arguments with the sports team members
nor our violent culture and media that had anything to do with it...
those things have been around for a long time. But the Internet and
the growing realization among young people that their future has been
mortgaged away, literally as well as figuratively speaking, inevitably
leads to the explosions of violence which have occured with increasing
frequency.


Look to the system itself, NOT THE STUDENTS, for the causes.


CitizenJimserac


It seems likely that you had an unhappy experience in school. It also seems
likely that you've force-fit the events into your theory, finding "proof" of
what you're saying by presuming causative relationships where none probably
exist.

--
Ed Huntress


Never mind me, I'm just one from many. My experiences are hardly
definitive and you've attended far more schools at all levels than
I ever did. But that very fact probably saved you from its
full effect. Besides, teachers are for the most part good
and well intentioned and they resent the system as much
as everyone else. Read Gatto's book, it's all there - the smuggled
in "guidelines" and "standards" about what our students
would or would not learn, could or could not learn,
should or should not learn and the role of "socialization"
(remember what was then called "social studies").

I took some education courses at Rhode Island College
in the late 1960's and I recall my astonishment at the
Maoist like intensity with which the views of Jean Jaques Rousseau,
Dewey and Horace Mann were propounded as if they were
the be all and end all of educational philosophies.

Citizen Jimserac



For the sake of Honest Disclosure..Eddy should mention his wife is a
school teacher......

Gunner

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
  #188   Report Post  
Old April 23rd 08, 04:13 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,529
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

snip

For the sake of Honest Disclosure..Eddy should mention his wife is a
school teacher......

Gunner



She teaches pre-school and kindergarten mentally handicapped, as you know
perfectly well. You want to talk about that in the context of academic
excellence and self-motivation, you smug asshole?

--
Ed Huntress


  #189   Report Post  
Old April 23rd 08, 02:06 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2008
Posts: 14
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking

On Apr 22, 7:14 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"CitizenJimserac" wrote in message

...

snip

Never mind me, I'm just one from many. My experiences are hardly
definitive and you've attended far more schools at all levels than
I ever did. But that very fact probably saved you from its
full effect. Besides, teachers are for the most part good
and well intentioned and they resent the system as much
as everyone else. Read Gatto's book, it's all there - the smuggled
in "guidelines" and "standards" about what our students
would or would not learn, could or could not learn,
should or should not learn and the role of "socialization"
(remember what was then called "social studies").


I will put the book on my list and try to get to it. I've been catching up
lately. d8-)



I took some education courses at Rhode Island College
in the late 1960's and I recall my astonishment at the
Maoist like intensity with which the views of Jean Jaques Rousseau,
Dewey and Horace Mann were propounded as if they were
the be all and end all of educational philosophies.


CitizenJimserac


The late '60s was a very strange time. I was in college then, too, and I can
imagine there were plenty of rabid ideologues in teacher's education, as
there were in many other fields. But those three were important thinkers who
had a powerful effect upon education, and, to some extent, upon politics. As
historical figures and original thinkers they were all important; you can't
teach the history of education, or understand how we got where we are,
without a serious study of their lives and ideas. I'd need to know the
context in which they were being taught to appreciate your judgment in this
case.

When education was extended to the general population, as someone else
commented in this thread, the question arose about what they were to be
educated *for*. Until that time education was for the elite, the future
leaders in government, business, religion, the professions, and so on. It
wasn't until our lifetimes that the general socialization objective came
under scrutiny.

So, here we are in 2008. What would you have kids learn today? What is it
that you think the schools are failing to teach? And what, specifically,
would you remove from the current curriculum?

--
Ed Huntress


Listen to what Gatto says:
(from "The Underground History of American Education"
by John Taylor Gatto,
"By the late 1960s I had exhausted my imagination
inside the conventional classroom when all of a
sudden a period of phenomenal turbulence descended
upon urban schoolteaching everywhere. Iíll tell
you more about this in a while, but for the moment,
suffice it to say that supervisory personnel
were torn loose from their moorings, superintendents,
principals and all the rest flung to the wolves
by those who actually direct American schooling.

In this dark time, local management cowered.
During one three-year stretch I can remember,
we had four principals and three superintendents.
The net effect of this ideological bombardment,
which lasted about five years in its most
visible manifestation, was to utterly destroy
the utility of urban schools. From my own
perspective all this was a godsend. Surveillance
of teachers and administrative routines lost
their bite as school administrators scurried
like rats to escape the wrath of their unseen
masters..."

Gatto goes on to describe how the school district
later tried to get rid of him by secretly canceling
his teaching license while he was on sick
leave and and they sent the legally required notice
to an address that he
had not lived at for 22 years. After several
hearings in which the required sick leave papers
that he filed had vanished, Gatto found a payroll
secretary who verified that he had filed
the proper papers and that people had come to her
office and made an effort to locate and remove
those papers. Gatto was eventually reinstated
and made teacher of the year two years later.

It was this battle with those cynical administrators
that taught Gatto how easily the impersonal
public school monster could be backed up
in the face of opposition that showed
any hint at all of exposing the entire sham.

Again in your post you have focused on the family
and on the student rather than on this administrative
structure, filled with well meaning people, which
seems to enact what a few money controlling agencies,
foundations and government offices desire rather
than act for the good of the students and their futures.

Citizen Jimserac
  #190   Report Post  
Old April 23rd 08, 03:25 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,529
Default $4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking


"Citizen Jimserac" wrote in message
...
On Apr 22, 7:14 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"CitizenJimserac" wrote in message

...

snip

Never mind me, I'm just one from many. My experiences are hardly
definitive and you've attended far more schools at all levels than
I ever did. But that very fact probably saved you from its
full effect. Besides, teachers are for the most part good
and well intentioned and they resent the system as much
as everyone else. Read Gatto's book, it's all there - the smuggled
in "guidelines" and "standards" about what our students
would or would not learn, could or could not learn,
should or should not learn and the role of "socialization"
(remember what was then called "social studies").


I will put the book on my list and try to get to it. I've been catching up
lately. d8-)



I took some education courses at Rhode Island College
in the late 1960's and I recall my astonishment at the
Maoist like intensity with which the views of Jean Jaques Rousseau,
Dewey and Horace Mann were propounded as if they were
the be all and end all of educational philosophies.


CitizenJimserac


The late '60s was a very strange time. I was in college then, too, and I
can
imagine there were plenty of rabid ideologues in teacher's education, as
there were in many other fields. But those three were important thinkers
who
had a powerful effect upon education, and, to some extent, upon politics.
As
historical figures and original thinkers they were all important; you
can't
teach the history of education, or understand how we got where we are,
without a serious study of their lives and ideas. I'd need to know the
context in which they were being taught to appreciate your judgment in
this
case.

When education was extended to the general population, as someone else
commented in this thread, the question arose about what they were to be
educated *for*. Until that time education was for the elite, the future
leaders in government, business, religion, the professions, and so on. It
wasn't until our lifetimes that the general socialization objective came
under scrutiny.

So, here we are in 2008. What would you have kids learn today? What is it
that you think the schools are failing to teach? And what, specifically,
would you remove from the current curriculum?

--
Ed Huntress


Listen to what Gatto says:
(from "The Underground History of American Education"
by John Taylor Gatto,
"By the late 1960s I had exhausted my imagination
inside the conventional classroom when all of a
sudden a period of phenomenal turbulence descended
upon urban schoolteaching everywhere. Iíll tell
you more about this in a while, but for the moment,
suffice it to say that supervisory personnel
were torn loose from their moorings, superintendents,
principals and all the rest flung to the wolves
by those who actually direct American schooling.

In this dark time, local management cowered.
During one three-year stretch I can remember,
we had four principals and three superintendents.
The net effect of this ideological bombardment,
which lasted about five years in its most
visible manifestation, was to utterly destroy
the utility of urban schools. From my own
perspective all this was a godsend. Surveillance
of teachers and administrative routines lost
their bite as school administrators scurried
like rats to escape the wrath of their unseen
masters..."

Gatto goes on to describe how the school district
later tried to get rid of him by secretly canceling
his teaching license while he was on sick
leave and and they sent the legally required notice
to an address that he
had not lived at for 22 years. After several
hearings in which the required sick leave papers
that he filed had vanished, Gatto found a payroll
secretary who verified that he had filed
the proper papers and that people had come to her
office and made an effort to locate and remove
those papers. Gatto was eventually reinstated
and made teacher of the year two years later.

It was this battle with those cynical administrators
that taught Gatto how easily the impersonal
public school monster could be backed up
in the face of opposition that showed
any hint at all of exposing the entire sham.

Again in your post you have focused on the family
and on the student rather than on this administrative
structure, filled with well meaning people, which
seems to enact what a few money controlling agencies,
foundations and government offices desire rather
than act for the good of the students and their futures.

Citizen Jimserac

=============================================

But what about the question of what is being taught, or should be taught,
and what should not be taught? Gatto is complaining about the
administration. How about the education?

--
Ed Huntress




Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Moire effects on new TV svu geek Electronics Repair 11 October 26th 07 03:12 AM
Musing about the effects if any, of how we price average work. Arch Woodturning 15 March 3rd 07 10:29 PM
Trane Clean Air Effects... Non-entity Home Repair 4 October 22nd 06 04:36 PM
Effects of sun on wood m Ransley Home Repair 4 November 1st 05 07:28 PM
paint effects Bilbo Baggins UK diy 1 August 17th 04 07:53 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:06 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2020 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"

 

Copyright © 2017